In response to my "10 Commandments" satire yesterday...

[Brotherjohn]

From the thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=277304

After reading a few of the final comments this morning, I just wanted to address them today. For those who didn't read it, it was a satirical "review" of how "obviously" the 10 Commandments have served as the basis for the laws of this country.

I think generally everyone agreed with the thrust of the piece. But a few posters pointed out specific laws throughout the country that did seem to use the commandments as a basis. As a way of forwarding "talking points" to counter Freeper arguments on this, I wanted to address this.

Yes, there are laws in various states throughout the country making adultery illegal, and where you might be arrested for taking the Lord's name in vain (or even cursing). There are Blue Laws insuring that certain businesses (typically ones that entail work, like hardware stores) are closed on Sundays. I know about that latter one... I'm from the South (it seems more common down here).

But specific laws in individual states (or even in every state) do not validate the argument that Freepers are making: that the 10 Commandments are THE BASIS for the the laws of this COUNTRY. There is nothing in the Constitution, or in Federal Law as far as I know, addressing adultery, or taking God's name in vain, or even addressing God at all. I do not believe there is a Federal Law on the books outlawing work on Sundays. The Constitution is the founding legal document of this country, and takes precedent over state and local laws. So the 10 Commandments DID NOT serve as the basis of laws for this country.

Even if there were federal (or even state) laws of this sort, the Constitution provides for a Judicial system to settle disputes. In most cases where a Federal Law might arguably promote religious beliefs, it is strucken down as unconstitutional. Occassionally, a state law might pass judicial muster, but that is usually under the onus of "states' rights". And that's just it. Some of these laws that are still (or have been) on the books which are clearly based on a particular religion are state and local laws. Our Constitution allows that different states are going to do things differently, and generally leaves the specifics up to the states (with the judicial review process set up to interpret whether their is a conflict). If a state wants to base their Constitution on the Star Trek Laws of the Federation, or the Code of Hammurabi, they are free to do so. Extreme cases, yes (and most of the resulting "laws" would likely be challenged as unconstitutional in court). But states can do so if they wish. So of course, many silly, superfluous, and yes, religion-based laws will make it on the state and local level. But that does nothing to validate the Freeper argument.

The only commandments one can make an argument are even written into U.S. Law (or even states' laws on a widespread, fairly uniform basis) are theft, murder and lying (as prejury). But these are simply common sense and common to most legal codes in human history. One could not have a civilization for long if anyone could steal and kill at will, and one could not enforce the laws necessary to maintain civilization if anyone could lie freely in court without fear of repercussions.

[rock]

1. First off, I really enjoyed your satire

and thought you made your point. But I've had a further thought. If you wanted to make the point another way, you could compare the 10 Commandents with (say) Iraqi law (or pick a country) and show that that law was based on the 10 C's. For example, don't kill, don't steal, don't lie. As a side note: you don't have to observe the Sabbath in the US, but in some countries, you would be put to death for non-observance. Which is the most like the 10 C's.
Nice job.

[wtmusic]

2. U.S. law takes precedence over state law

Your statement that 'If a state wants to base their Constitution on the Star Trek Laws of the Federation, or the Code of Hammurabi, they are free to do so' is not wholly accurate. They can't contravene the provisions of the US Constitution or they can be declared unconstitional and thrown out, as illlustrated by the recent decision on the ban on sodomy.

[Brotherjohn]

4. But my point was that they can pass the laws if they want to...

... but they may then be subject to judicial review and possibly be declared unconstitutional.

Nothing in the Constitution prevents a state from writing, passing, and enacting the silliest legislation possible. But the Constitution also provides for judicial review, and it is only until that process occurs that such laws might be thrown out. Sometimes that never happens, in which case, the law stands.

Here, in Florida, for instance, His Most Exalted Emperor Jebius Bush has declared himself "ruler of all things animate and inanimate", and that we must all grovel when he is within sight of His Royalness. I'm thinking of bringing a lawsuit about that one, but I fear that just the fact that I've thought of doing so has made me subject to the capital offense of "Bringing Disdain Upon the Emperor" (Florida Code 555.2122(a), 2003).

[zeemike]

3. I think you are right

But there is even more evidence than you gave that our law has very little in common with the Ten Commandments.
And the evidence is in the bible itself. And that may be what is keeping the myth alive is the fact that most Christians have never read the bible as a book and particularly parts like Leviticus where the laws of Moses were recorded. (Maybe one in a 100 has read it)
But if one does read it you soon realize that the cornerstone of the Law of Moses is the forth commandment “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy” I have never figured it up but I would bet that over half of the laws of Moses concerned the keeping of the Sabbath.
And why not? It was the basis of the nation of Israel’s economic and social system. That one commandment controlled every aspect of there economy and it worked well for them as long as it lasted (which was longer than our nation has been around)
I think that if we were to make our laws around just this one commandment we would have a much different economy and environment.