The South Shall Rise Again!!! White Power!!! (lg. pic)

[ret5hd]

Not my sentiments, but i wonder about the owner of this sign.

My wife and i were driving to attend a graduation ceremony south of ft. worth, tx. About 30 miles outside of ft. worth, we came upon this sign. On the way home, we stopped to photograph it.

WHAT DRIVES THESE PEOPLE???
I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!

Anyway, next time someone says racism is dead in the u.s., show 'em this pic.

[Archae]

1. Notice "Korner" is mis-spelled.

Unless that's on purpose.

And what the heck is a "dew rag?"

[Must_B_Free]

3. Dew Rag = a hairproduct predominantly worn by black people

it's that little spandex head wrap.

[MountainLaurel]

61. Saw that too.

Don't think any African-Americans are going to be stupid enough to stop there to pick up hair care supplies.

[ajacobson]

134. also known by people

as a "doo rag", i.e. hair-do.

[datasuspect]

168. "do" rag

short for hairdo.

[ret5hd]

4. oh, you can bet "korner" mis-spelled on purpose...

now, a "dew" rag may also be mis-spelled (maybe do-rag) but it is the bandana tied over the hair while riding a cycle.

[FizzFuzz]

128. yes, the correct spelling is "do-rag" as in hair do.

I'm a spelling maven. :D

[hellhathnofury]

139. They put the K in KKK!

:evilgrin:

[Kindigger]

36. Dew Rag=

bandanna worn by a Biker. I like that "Christian" at the bottom...sort of an afterthought.

Hmmm...bandanas AND dew rags?

[mrbassman03]

65. Oh, it's Korner so there is alliteration with... oh...

Never mind, ignore the South...

[Dr Fate]

They like "Ks" a lot. Especially 3 of them. n/t

n/t

[Jawja]

174. No that's

"Korner" as in "KKK"

[Must_B_Free]

2. Thank God!

it's nice to know I will not be without Christian resources whenever I happen to find myself in Rebel Korner.

[dogman]

5. These are the values that gave us B$$$.

[ret5hd]

8. THAT is no shit. Truer words not spoken in a long time.

[apple_ridge]

6. Sweet vehicles in the background. Is that one of those rare

and highly desirable AMC Javelins?

[charlie]

7. Racism dead?

Very much alive and no further than one our latest visitors to DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1418731#1424445

[ret5hd]

9. jeebus crist...

do you think he may be from rebel korner too?

[charlie]

10. Naw

This one's got a smidge of smarts, fancies himself a sophisticate. The Rebel Korner yokels would pound his fruity intelleck-shul ass.

[Catherine Vincent]

16. Post #48

Sickening isn't it? I don't really know what to say about that post.:-(

[charlie]

22. Neither does he

A lot of high-flown nonsense because he's too embarassed to plainly say what's on his mind -- OUR WHITE WIMMENS ARE BEING STOLEN BY SCARY NEGROES.

[TahitiNut]

29. "what to say about that post"

It deserves to be treated like a cat treats its own doo-doo in a sandbox.

[yellowdogintexas]

11. what town were you in?

I live in Fort Worth, so naturally I am curious

[ret5hd]

12. northern edge of granbury on hwy 377 on the west side of the hwy.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[PROGRESSIVE1]

14. "Zie Amerikan Swastika"

:puke: :puke: :puke:

:argh: :argh: :argh:

:grr: :grr: :grr:

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[PROGRESSIVE1]

20. Because it has become a symbol of racism and Southern "Pride"!

That's why we scream rasism!!!

:eyes:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UdoKier]

34. It is a symbol of racism - and treason.

Why should it be treated with any more dignity than a hammer and sickle flag?

[RPM]

15. time to burn confederate flags???

I wonder how'd they take that vis-a-vis a cross burning....

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[RPM]

26. i think the asshat who has that sign up would beg to differ....

... besides, give him the taste of fear that blacks get when crosses are burned...

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[UdoKier]

35. It doesn't deserve anything as dignified as burning.

I'd give it a stomp and throw it in the garbage atop some shitty diapers.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[UdoKier]

45. Because it is a symbol of a bunch of traitorous thugs

Who built their "graceful" lives of leisure on the unpaid labor of others who were abducted from their home countries. It symbolizes the mentality that continues to excuse that heinous crime.

Why would you fail to grasp something so obvious?

[Name removed]

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[UdoKier]

66. There was a huge abolitionist movement.

And I'm aware of Lincoln's ulterior motives in promulgating the Emancipation Proclamation, but doing the right thing for bad reasons doesn't mean it isn't still the right thing.

The same could be said of LBJ when he passed the Civil Rights Act. It was still the right thing to do.

Ass, numbnutz - I called the traitorous flag what it is, and you come back with personal insults.

Are you so undeveloped as a person that you identify yourself by that flag?

[Maestro]

69. Yes, yes, we all know that

the Civil War was about state's rights and Linclon's emancipation of the slaves could be argued to have been a more political move than anything else, but we are talking about what the original use of the flag was. Whether you like it or not, that flag has been hijacked by ignorant, racists hicks. I've seen that flag flown by many KKK members. There is one right down my street who flies his many iterations of the rebel flag weekly. We all know he is Klan member because he actually dressed up in his pajamas that he called realia and passed out fliers for the KKK.

Anyhow, if you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the ones that hijacked that flag to further their racist views. It's a tainted flag now and this is coming from a white guy, born in Georgia and raised in Texas where I currently live. That flag disgusts me.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[Maestro]

86. I know. That makes me sick as well.

I can't stand people who can't think for themselves and wrap themselves in flags thinking they are some patriotic soldier fighting for some greater good. They don't dictate to me anything. They only make me want to bitch slap them to knock some sense into them, but they have been inbred too much so that won't work.

Anyhow, a thought that is a bit less abrasive is that these people have been bred into a culture that fears what is different and feel that their "culture" is being watered down or worse destroyed so they pick up old Glory and the Rebel battle flag and fight for "their" America. Unfortunately, "their" America has no place in it for other good people are aren't like them. They distrust anyone not like them. It's pathetic.

[Kazak]

18. Hico, TX...

There's a restaurant there called the Koffee Kup Kafe...

:eyes:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[ret5hd]

23. i'm sure that the sign is mis-spelled and there is no implied meaning...

aren't you?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[firebee]

92. Like... cut through the bullcrap

It's a little tiny town in Texas where a bunch of ignorant white trash scumbags happen to live. They do cute little things like putting up "Rebel Korner" on a confederate flag. Gotta make sure we spell corner as "Korner", so the people who buy them dew rags don't bother stopping. Then they've got their brother-cousin, Billy Joe, serving coffee at the "Koffee Kup Kafe". Apparently, everybody at the Koffee Kup Kafe likes their Koffee with Kream, but Billy Joe don't like Kream with his Koffee. He told me he likes his Koffee like he likes his slaves.

Maybe we should go down and detain these people as terrorists??? We could video tape them being stripped, electricuted, beaten, and sexually assaulted. We could even take some pictures of them suckin Bubba and send it to their family. Wonder how well that would go over??? After all... apparently it's legal to do this to terrorists? At least that's what the memos say.

[Maestro]

63. Yeah, I've been through Hico very many times

on my way to the Texas Hill Country and either that is a funny way of spelling the name of the restaurant to attract attention or it is blantly KKK.

[UVASAM1]

25. since when

does owning a store that sells confederate paraphernalia and other stuff like that make one a racist?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

30. hahahaha

good one. you were kidding right?

[UVASAM1]

32. have you ever been to the south

seriously? Or near a battlefield? Or near a town with a lot of Confederate history? Or to any history exhibit (american, most of which sell Confederate memorbilia? I know I have a 3x5 flag, and I got it from Disney World when I was like 10 years old).

[UdoKier]

38. I was born and raised in Texas, and have never had ANY respect

for the confederacy or its filthy flag, in spite of my grandparents' and great-grandparents' nonsensical notions about the glory and grace of the old south. Even as a kid I knew they were full of crap (at least as far as race and the confederacy went)

[UVASAM1]

42. well

that may be your opinion, but a large % of people in the South disagree with you, and are in no way racist.

[UdoKier]

46. If they were not racist, they would make amends for their vile heritage

and forsake the ugly symbols of treason and slavery.

By the way, I reject the attitude of Texans that Texas is somehow "more than just a state" just as much as I reject the whole BS Dixie Heritage.

The plantation economy is nothing to take pride in, no matter how it's been romanticized in films.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UdoKier]

It was the confederate battle flag.

It stood for the traitors that rebelled against the government partly because they wanted to continue enslaving other human beings.

If you don't understand that, I don't know how to help you.

It is a piece of trash too filthy to wipe one's arse with.

[Yupster]

125. I don't think you're being fair

calling the Confederates traitors.

They believed they had every right to secede and did it legally.

Treason is maybe the most serious crime. You are a traitor after a jury finds you guilty of treason.

The Confederate leaders (Davis and Lee) were indicted for treason.

Davis begged for his trial to start. He had a large well-financed legal team to defend him made up of northern lawyers and financed by northern abolitionist millionaires. His defense was that secession was legal and therefore how could he be a traitor?

He begged for his trial, but the government imprisoned him, indicted him, and never tried him.

If they thought they had a case they would have tried him. Public opinion sure wanted someone tried for the 350,000 northern dead.

The fear was that if the Supreme Court finally ruled that secession was indeed legal, then what? You gonna apologize and put Davis back in power in Richmond?

No way. Better to just let his indictment hang out there forever and never give him his day in court.

When he was finally bailed out of jail, the money was put up by two northern Republicans, Horace Greeley and Cornelius Vanderbilt.

So, he was never given his day in court. He was indicted, and never tried, and now people are calling him guilty. That's pretty bad.

How'd you like to be indicted for child pornography. You'd say I'm innocent, and can't wait for my trial to prove it. And the government never puts you on trial. Just leaves the indictment hanging over you so yor neighbors can call you a child molestor.

Not guilty until trial I think is a pretty good rule of thumb. Especially when the defendant says he can't wait for his trial to prove his innocence.

Lee incidently did not want a trial. He just wanted to go home and live a quiet peaceful life which is what he did.

Davis wanted to prove himself right before he died. He never got the chance to.

[UdoKier]

161. In a legal sense, you're probably right.

But since the reasons for secession were far from noble, just or decent, it's hard for me to muster much sympathy, especially since we here have been called traitors merely for failing to support Bush's illegal war of aggression on Iraq.

But I agree that every confederate soldier was not a traitor. I'm sure it was not a matter of choice, and with brother sometimes fighting brother, it must have been hard.

But I still think that flag represents the ugliest side of our nation's heritage. And I don't think that's unfair to say.

[UVASAM1]

53. gimme a break

you can find a reason to turn your back on just about any flag if you look at history

make amends for their vile heritage?

you've got to be kidding.

[Sparkly]

59. Please explain the purpose of displaying it today

I'm a Yankee, so bear with me.

Why do people display it today?
Do you display it?
Do you believe that many people (northerners, African Americans) consider it an offensive symbol of both racism and division, and if so, would that affect your own views on it?

[UVASAM1]

72. answers

1. Primarily History. Many of us had ancestors who fought and died in the Civil War. Many of those fought only for reasons to protect their homes from Union armies who came and burned their barns, killed their horses and cattle, and murdered innocent civilians, including children. This even at residences that owned no slaves. Not everybody who fought in the South did so for slaves.
2. Not normally; only when my town has historical civil war days/reenactments, etc.
3. Sure they do. No. First, there are a million things that are offensive to certain people. I can tell you that I have a neighbor who flys an Isreali flag on a main street in our city even though there are numerous families in our community who see that flag as a symbol of murder and oppression (rightly or wrongly). I would hope that people would be intelligent enough to realize that there are many reasons for displaying the flag and if interested, would ask why I chose to do so.

[Sparkly]

109. Thanks -- more questions.

1. I have ancestors who fought in the civil war on the confederate side, as well, but I have no desire whatsoever to display that flag as a result. That war is over. I don't understand the point of displaying that flag as "history" now. WHY do it? If you could put the statement into words, what would it be? ("I think the south got a raw deal" or "I love my ancestors" or what?)

2. Reenactments -- I can understand that one. Why don't you display it yourself, other than that?

3. Israel is a country today. I can see how it may be controversial to fly their flag, but I think the confederate flag is much more than that. Many people DO find it offensive. So if people are offended by it, and that's known, is it a stretch to say the person displaying it is "offensive?" If it's known to be a racist symbol, could the person displaying it logically be considered "racially insensitive" at best?

Seems to me it's offensive and insensitive to do things other people react to this strongly. It's the same reason we don't even utter the "n word" but instead call it the "n word;" same reason we don't use other ethnic slurs. People could say they don't 'mean anything' by it, but the worst MCPs I've ever known were the loudest in yelling, "I love women!"

I'm sincerely trying to understand where you're coming from. I was shocked when I first saw there was a controversy about this at all. So I'm more distant from the south than I ever realized, I guess.

[UVASAM1]

113. specific to me

1. We have letters from one of my great great grandfathers who fought writing to home, etc., as well as a bunch of other artifacts/historical items. I'm a direct descendant of Gen. Joseph Wheeler, who later served in Congress and was the rebuilt US. So there is a sense of family pride.
2. I see no real reason to. As you said, the war is over. I see no reason to fly it on my car or on my front porch. There are a lot of idiots out there who use the flag as a symbol of racism. But I'll reserve judgment on them as to their motives until I meet them in person, as there are a lot that dont.
3. I dont think so. I think people should inquire as to one's motives. the flag isnt racist to me. People are racist, and I'm sure flag or no flag, those people would easily be found out.

[Sparkly]

135. "the flag isnt racist to me. People are racist"

If I were you, I'd be mightily pissed at the people who've usurped that flag as a symbol of racism. As you say, there's no rational reason to fly it today and many "use the flag as a symbol of racism."

Both because it's a historical relic and doesn't represent the United States we live in today, and even more because of what it stands for now, it is offensive to many Americans to fly it now; thus people who fly it are being offensive.

I appreciate your candor. (It really does seem we're living in two different countries sometimes, doesn't it?)

[RPM]

165. Southern People Duped Again... Drank Confederate Kool-Ade

IIRC, only ~20% of Southerners owned slaves, and only 5% of the total population held large quantities of slaves. In addition, non-slave owners were forced to ride posse for fugitive slave patrol as well as suffer the consequences of having to compete economically against slave labor. Yet, they drank the Confederate Kool-ade, seceded from the Union and took up arms against the union for the right to what? Own - or more often dream of owning - a slave (and don't give me any bullshit about "Northern Aggression" - the guys in Grey leveled ridiculous threats of secession if a certain president was lawfully elected and then went on and fired the first shot of the war).

Fast forward almost 150 years and you have many descendants of these same folks supporting aggression in Iraq, near-slave labor countries depriving them of their jobs all so that the 5% of the population that they can never dream of being as wealthy as can make more money.

The way I see it, the folks in the South haven't learned a damn thing about who the real enemy is. Despite professing a love of "their history", many of them forget the legacy of indentured servitude, not realizing that, but for the availability of cheap blacks, poor whites would have been the slaves. Not realizing that today, they make themselves indentured servants of MBNA....

It is bizarre to me that in all this time, despite being the most impoverished section of our country, many of the folks in the south haven't realized that the issue here is not race, but economic standing.

But I guess as long as one has Jeebus and a Black man to keep down, poverty is not so bad.

[Yupster]

127. I think northerners don't understand the magnitude

of the Civil War to the south.

Before the Civil War there were about 1 million adult white men capable of serving in the armed forces.

The Confederacy put 750,000 of them in uniform or 75 % of its adult white population. We have never seen any numbers like that. Pretty much every man in the county marched off in the county regiment to war together. They elected their own officers, often the mayor or preacher.

When a regiment spearheaded an attack and took 60 % casualties, then half the adiult men in the county may have died in that one attack.

By the end of the war, the Confederacy lost 250,000 men or 25 % of their adult white male population. There were another 250,000 seriously wounded.

No Americans have ever taken anywhere near such percentile losses and fought against such odds for so long with such little means as the Confederates.

By the end of the war, their cities were burned, livestock killed, every family had lost someone killed or wounded. Their wealth was made worthless since it was in Confederate dollars and bonds. Many lost their land after that.

If people wonder why the effects lasted so long, they should wonder why the government didn't do more to help rebuild. There were many things that could have been done.

An untold story of the Civil War is how many southerners fought hard against secession, and then fought equally hard in the Confederate Army once their state had seceeded.

Two examples were Alexander Stephens, elected vice-president of the Confederacy who spoke against secession at the Georgia secession convention, and Jubal Early, a major general under Lee who was a delegate to the Virginia secessin convention and voted no, and then led a division and later a corps with distinction in Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

In summary, hard feelings are slowly going away as memories fade and generations pass, but the southerners felt like they seceeded legally, and then were illegally invaded, made destitute, killed and beaten into submission by the ones who were wrong.

[Sparkly]

137. No, I really don't understand why that history matters now

Especially not compared with the continued, pervasive racism in our country even TODAY.

We in the North are not attacking you in the South right now. WE never did! But white people are, right NOW, discriminating against minorities and most pertinent to this issue, African Americans. That is a fact.

My parents were both born and raised in the South. But they met as students at that bastion of liberal elitism, Yale University, and I grew up in Connecticut without any sense that that war was still going on.

Seems there's alot they never told me.

[UdoKier]

64. Yes, the American flag is pretty damn tainted too.

But I still hold out a bit of hope for it.

The confederacy was, from its inception, based on corruption, lies and slavery. The union was making progress, however slow, in advancing human rights. The confederacy wanted to prevent that from ever happening.

[DoNotRefill]

107. You DO realize that the Union held slaves longer than the Confederacy...

don't you?

[Yupster]

140. When Jefferson Davis was

inaugyrated President of the CSA, there were eight slave states in the USA and seven in the CSA.

[American Tragedy]

119. Just out of curiosity, how many of them are black?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[UdoKier]

70. The vast majority of AMERICANS would agree with me

THEN and NOW.

As the republicans like to say:

You lost. Get over it. You've had 150 years already. How about living in the modern age, rather than clinging to a flag that offends the vast majority of African Americans and a hell of a lot of white people, too?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. So maybe the fact that KORNER was spellied with a K could be a clue

really? Disney sold confederate flags? DO they have nazi ones too?

[UVASAM1]

55. do a search

www.google.com

"Corner" is often spelled with a K in Texas.

ahh, time to bring up the Nazis. Always a good one.

[UdoKier]

76. Corner with a K can be innocent and cutesy.

But not when used in combination with that rag.

[Maestro]

79. I was raised here in Texas.

Never heard that one.

[datasuspect]

88. maybe that is more the result of the piss poor education

system in texas . . .

the english word "corner" is not often spelled with a K in texas. maybe by illiterates, really now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. KKKontext is everything

[m berst]

77. yes

I have spent a lot of time in the South, and as the Civil War is an interest of mine, I spend a lot of time visiting the battlefields. It always surprises me how little interest there is in the South in the history of the war. It seems ironic to me that people display the battle flag and defend that by saying it is historical, but then have no interest in the actual history. Visit any battlefield in the South and you will see 99 out of a hundred license plates are from the North. Ask people in any town near a battle field for directions and see how many people drive by a battlefield everyday and have no clue what it is about. Yet there are battle flags and decals all over town.

The battle flag became popular during the civil rights struggle and has been used as a symbol of resistance to integration and voting rights. We can debate this or you can ask me for "proof" but that is a bunch of nonsense. All one needs to do is to ask people who display the flag what their reasons are for displaying it. They will tell you, providing they think it is safe to do so. So why play games and pretend? No white person can claim to be unaware of this. Ask people when they are alone, and in a non-threatening or judgmental way why they fly the battle flag. They will tell you. Of course. And it ain't an interest in history. So whom are we kidding?

That being said, I don't agree with people who lump all things Southern together and then ridicule and demonize all people from the South by implication.

[Kingshakabobo]

166. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

Look at the timing of when that flag became so popular and started popping up on top of statehouses in the south. The noble history argument is 98% bullshit.

"The battle flag became popular during the civil rights struggle and has been used as a symbol of resistance to integration and voting rights."

[pleiku52cab]

28. My take is

the guy has a business out in bubba country and is trying to pay his bills. He may (probably?) even be a real redneck, but he sure ain't gonna make no livin sellin dem Kerry bumper stickers.

[Placebo]

33. Why does owning a Confederate Flag make one a racist?

I don't own one, but I know people who do and I know they are not racist. I'm not saying that a lot of racists don't embrace that flag, but not everyone who displays it is a racist.

[UVASAM1]

39. ahh

but THOSE PEOPLE! WHAT POSSESSES THEM!

Must be a bubba or redneck or racist automatically!


Is it any wonder we have almost no chance of winning 1/2 of our states?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[itzamirakul]

90. The Confederate Flag is the symbol of

people who went to war to fight for the right to keep the institution of slavery alive in America. They fought under that flag so that they could continue to own black human beings. Even those who were too poor to own slaves, fought for the right to keep black people enslaved, just in case they ever got enough money to buy one or two. It is the ideology of what that flag represents that makes people who fly it suspect of upholding the ideology that slavery is a condition that is acceptable even today. That is why they are called racists. I bet that the neighbors that you are defending hate black people. I bet they don't show them any respect at all, no matter how dirt poor they, themselves might be.

Did you know that far more white people in America receive welfare and food stamps than do blacks? Yet these self same people have the audacity to accuse black people of robbing the government of welfare payments. Bush, Cheney and Halliburton are the biggest welfare queens the nation has ever known.

As I said, these whites that you defend might be as poor as church mice, but they have one thing that they consider a value that they think puts them above any person of color and that is their skin. Their white skin is the ONLY property they own, so to make up for their other lack, they try to use that skin and that rag-flag to discriminate and treat black people cruelly. They are so stupid that they vote against their OWN self interests just to have another white supremacist in the White House.

Some of Bush's largest rallies were held in the Neonazi, skinhead, Klan, white supremacist heart of Ohio.

Defend them all you want to. I bet if a black man walked in that store, he would be lucky to walk out again. I would be ashamed to admit that I even knew someone who remained so ignorant and mean-spirited as the flyers of that rag and the posters of that billboard.
Take that anyway you like.

[DoNotRefill]

112. That's odd....

"They fought under that flag so that they could continue to own black human beings."

Considering that it was legal to own slaves in the NORTH longer than it was in the South.

Saying "The Civil War was about slavery" is not factually accurate. Remember, in Scott v. Sandford, the South had WON in front of the Supreme Court. Even FREE african-americans were denied Citizenship by that decision.

I suggest you go back and read some of Lincoln's speeches. If you do, I think you'll find that he wasn't QUITE as "enlightened" by today's standards as you may have been led to believe. In fact, if he were a politician today with the positions he held then, he'd be to the RIGHT of David Duke. Back then, that made him a progressive.

[itzamirakul]

115. Keep talking that revisionist history

that your bigoted teachers taught you. You won't find much sympathy on this board. Go to aol's boards. They have lots of room for folks like you who want to defend the South's right to fly that rag-flag.
And yes, your friends ARE racists AND YOU, ALSO, BY ASSOCIATION.

For your information, slavery ended in NYC in 1827, years BEFORE the Emancipation Proclamation was signed. Southerners used to come to NYC and try to steal free blacks and take them back to the south.
A strong abolitionist society prevented much of that from happening.
Oh, yes, it wasn't perfect. Certainly many wealthy white New YOrkers made their money off of the stock they owned in southern cotton industries labored at by slaves as well as the sugar cane business. Just as many of them are today making big bucks on Wall Street from the dummies in the South that voted to allow them to keep making big money, outsource jobs and PAY NO TAXES! But slavery ended in the New England states MUCH sooner than IT ENDED in the south.
You need to read some real history and perhaps come up out of Texas for awhile and live in a more diverse community. Meet some different people and get a different outlook on life.

[DoNotRefill]

152. You seem to be ignoring....

that the Emancipation Proclamation ONLY applied to States that joined the Confederacy. Maryland, a slave state, remained in the Union, and slaves there were only freed with the passage and final ratification of the 13th Amendment, which occurred on December 6, 1865. The Confederacy surrendered (and slavery therefore became illegal in the entire South as a function of the Emancipation Proclamation) in May, 1865. In other words, slavery became extinct in the territory of the former Confederacy in May, 1865, but still existed in the North until early December, 1865.

Here's the language of the Emancipation proclamation that's relevant: " "That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom. "

It's not revisionist history, it's uncontroverted FACT.

[DoNotRefill]

159. BTW, do you know what Lincoln's solution to slavery was?

It was ETHNIC CLEANSING. No joke. His solution was to ship them all back to Africa. You can look it up in the Lincoln-Doulas debates if you like.

[BlueDog2u]

129. You're kidding, right?

WTF was it about?

[Phelan]

151. If you ask most Southerners it was about States Rights

[BlueDog2u]

153. And how, in the context,

is that any different from slavery? "State's rights" in 1860 is just a code word for "we like our way of life and don't try to change it."

[DoNotRefill]

157. Well...considering that the vast majority of people who fought...

on the Confederate side didn't own a single slave, much less multiple slaves and a plantation, AND considering Scott v. Sandford, where the US Supreme Court said that NO african-american, be he or she slave or free, could be a citizsne of a State, if it was just about slavery, they pretty much had it wrapped up by STAYING in the Union. After all, the Supreme Court under Taney had just ruled in the favor of slavery...and any legislation passed tampering with slavery would have undoubtedly been struck down by the courts based on Scott...

[BlueDog2u]

177. Your reply is sophistry at its most stunning.

End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. You clearly need to take some courses in history and how its done.

[Endangered Specie]

122. You clearly need to read up on your history...

If you think that the average confederate soldier was fighting for the notion of keeping slaves you are sorely mistaken. Albeit that may have been part of the reason why the rich establishment SENT them to war. Furthermore you'll realize that the North treated blacks just as bad if not worse.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dogman]

41. Not everyone displaying the swastika is a nazi either.

But it sure shows an anti-social trait.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[dogman]

50. My head is not in my ass.

My dad was shot by people fighting under the nazi flag. I had a prior ancestor die fighting people who were under th battle flag. These people were enemies of the USA. If people choose to identify with enemies of the USA I don't sympathize with them. I said nothing about racism so wipe the crap out of your eyes so you can read my post as written.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dogman]

67. Well maybe you are openminded enough to see good in the nazis and

the rebels. Maybe you would rather the USA didn't exist. In that case you are the same as Bush. You are so self centered you put yourself ahead of society. That's your right.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[dogman]

85. It's a fact that both flags represented the desire to destroy the USA.

That is history. To say otherwise would be rewriting history. As I said family members fought for the USA against troops under either flag.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dogman]

78. They are both the flags of soldiers who fought against the USA

American History is mandatory in high school. Were you deprived of an education?

[DoNotRefill]

160. Sid Vicious was no nazi....

he was an anarchist that just wore swastikas to piss people off.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

52. "why it was ORIGINALLY used" isn't how it's seen by everyone today

The swastika wasn't originally a Nazi symbol, either.

I've been down this road on DU before... The confederate flag, like it or not, offends many people as a racist symbol. At least where I live, a person who displays an offensive racist symbol is likely to be perceived as an offensive racist, but I was told I'm a 'bigot' for making that assumption and that the flag is seen differently further south.

The same people telling me this said they themselves don't display it anymore though, because it might be 'taken wrong' or misinterpreted -- in other words, some people might be offended by it, and why? Because to many people, it's a racist symbol. It's easy to blame the people who see it that way and call them "ignorant" in their perceptions, but the fact is that people are offended, and that says what it's become.

[UVASAM1]

58. so we shouldnt proudly display a flag

because it offends some people or they might think its a symbol of racism, bigotry, or other negative meanings?

[Sparkly]

62. That's up to you

Actually I just asked you about that upthread... I'm not asking "should it," I'm asking "would it." Would it affect your own views/actions concerning the flag to know that others are offended by it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

111. Yes that's exactly right..whether it's the confederate flag or the

accompanying swastika flag that so many confederate flag lovers also tend to find fashionable..you should not display symbols of racism and oppression unless you are a racist and proud of it.

[Yupster]

141. Lots of DU protests offend people too

So do Gay rights marches and oh were people offended by war protestors marching with the Viet Cong flag.

Are all those groups wrong too, or do only some people have the right to be offended by symbols others use?

[m berst]

143. yes

Of course. You are free to do so if you like, but you shouldn't. Of course. The revival of that flag in the 60's was as a symbol to rally those who wanted to suppress voting rights and preserve segregation. Pride in the history of the Confederacy has nothing to do with it.

Why intentionally "offend" (right wing talking point alert) a large number of your fellow citizens? Why take an attitude of "too bad if they are offended?"

I guess the more important question is not why shouldn't you fly it, but why would you?

It is so silly to argue back and forth whether or not it is a racist symbol. Of course it is, and I don't think there are very many people in the country who sincerely believe otherwise. I might be wrong about that, but every person I have ever talked to at length about it either confides that they fly it because they do indeed want to send a racist message, or they see the problem with it and decide to stop displaying it. There are those emotionally immature people, I suppose, who are just plain old anti-social and stupid and enjoy doing things that upset people.

So, pick one, I guess: racist, ignorant, immature, or stupid and insensitive. But don't talk "pride" and history.

"Offend" is too mild of a word, and is a right wing talking point - "oooooh they're offended!" Let's try some other descriptive words for the flying of that flag - provoke, antagonize, persecute, harass, threaten and intimidate.

[Sparkly]

144. I never knew the word "offended" was a "right wing talking point"

I agree with your post, except I think the word "offended" is a fine one. "Offensive" and "offended" are responses to an offense. But I guess I just haven't heard it in its rightwing form. :shrug:

[m berst]

149. Limbaugh and others

I have heard them use the word "offended" to trivilaize people's complaints about abuse, as though racism were just a matter of impoliteness. It is part of the whole pc fallacy, I think.

[tx_dem41]

175. Aren't you ashamed when the KKK co-opts your symbol? n/t

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrbassman03]

75. You are in the wrong place if you hate the color blue...

Go wave your confederate flag and complain to your friends about the "darkies" somewhere else...

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maestro]

71. See post #69 -nt

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

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[pleiku52cab]

57. Ya know

some of these posts seemingly tend to support the freepers contention that we really are bigoted elistst snobs who only look down our noses at the 'common folk'.

[Maestro]

74. How so?

Examples? :shrug:

And Bushco aren't a bunch of elitist shitheads?

[infusionman]

81. They are flying the flag of a defeated Nation!

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[infusionman]

87. They should not be allowed to fly the flag

of a defeated nation. It also lends out to racism etc. Is that what the DU is about???

[DoNotRefill]

108. So much for freedom of speech....

eom

[Solon]

95. Let me see if I can put this in perspective...

I'm from Missouri, and I see Confederate flags often enough, they are not nearly as popular around my area as they are further south in the state. Hell there are a few who actually have the "Stars and Bars", little more subtle, but I never really understood it. They were traitors, my ancestors in St. Louis fought off those bastards in some of the worst battles of the Civil War, so HOW THE FUCK SHOULD I FEEL when I see those GODDAMNED FLAGS. Its no better than the NAZI flag, not for Racism, but because they were the enemy.

[KenCarson]

89. apparently, this sign is in a market where they MSG

don't immediately associate the confederate flag with racial issues, since there were other economic issues in the civil war.

i don't view it as any more offensive than anyone who insists on carrying over their identity from the nationality of their great grandparents as an identity badge. that can be tiresome too.

i would definitely be conscious that it could be carry the given racist baggage, but i wouldn't assume it.

this consistent anti-southern groupthink is a broken record lately, no?

[infusionman]

91. Yes & No

If People want to stir emotions and hatred through the past, then it's a problem.

If people are proud of their heritage and want to and want to talk about it, then it's a different story.

Respectfully, the feelings I got from the first note(excuse me, I am still naive about what to call things here.)was one of stirring trouble.

Vic

[KenCarson]

100. i think you mean "post" when you use "note

i think you mean "post" when you use "note. i could be wrong.

yes, the original post seemed to be intended to create a visceral reaction, not careful thought.

i agree with your first 2 points.

[infusionman]

103. Thanks, I'llget the hang of this soon enough.

[NMDemDist2]

147. you may want to bookmark this handy DU glossary too

it will come in handy :)

http://dug.amystrange.com

[UdoKier]

94. Anti-confederate is not anti-southern.

I'm a native Texan, and I've always hated the confederacy in spite of the fact that some of my relatives believed in it and one even supported the Klan. And I know for a fact that a LOT of other southerners DO NOT believe in that damn flag or the confederacy, so please don't impose that belief on all of US.

[KenCarson]

97. true...but there's been anti-southern sentiment as well lately

because the south (i'm in NC) is perceived as all red states, using the divisive mentality that ignores the fact that the lines between states are all artificial, so apparently, the whole nation is purple <G>.

[infusionman]

98. Please see my "Yes & No Comment."

[itzamirakul]

101. The consistent racist attitude of many southerners

isn't a broken record. Like the energizer bunny, it just keeps running and running and running...

Isn't Texas the place where three white men dragged a black man behind a truck until his head came off? Oh, I guess that was just a "fraternity prank" as the good old boy Rush would call it.

[KenCarson]

104. "many" is not most...and bigotry has no borders, but many flavors

JMO.....

[DoNotRefill]

110. And the Nazis marched in Skokie, Alabama, right?

eom

[Maestro]

130. Whoa there pardner!

I was born and raised in the South and this here boy is not racist. I married a Mexican-American, my best man at my wedding was black and I work with immigrant families on a daily basis helping them learn English.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

148. Why yes it was

But I guess there are no crimes against black people in northern states like New York are there?

This whole thread is utter bullshit. The blanket attitude about the south makes me want to throw up. And people wonder why the label "Northeast Liberal" is now a dirty word.

Are there racist crimes in the south? Yes there are and it makes me ill but guess what, it's all over this country not just in the south. Is everyone in the south a racist idiot republican? No they are not. There are swarms of people fighting the good fight all over the south just as there are in the north and east and west!

The statements made here such as "it was a good thing to squash the south and it needs to be done again" and "lookie lookie at this sign of a racist hatemonger in Texas" and "Fuck the south they are all a bunch of redneck morons" make me see red. I have had just about enough of it. And to all those who seem to live under the misguided belief that the south is the problem of America, well take a look in your own back yard and see just how many Bush worshiping, bible thumping, bigoted assholes live right next door to you. I can guarantee you ALL of Bush's votes did not come from the south. Keep up the bashing of all of us in the south that bust our asses to bring change to this screwed up country and pretty soon you will find that not only will you push away yet more people willing to help the cause but you can count on nothing but defeat in the future.

It's this sort of thing that has made 50% of this country not bother to vote in the first damn place. And well, if that's the way you like it, then I hope you enjoy the rest of your life with the right wing zealots pressing their thumb down on your head a little harder every day for the rest of your life! Cause if you insist on continuing to alienate people your army will continue to erode until there is nothing left.

[tx_dem41]

176. I am tired of the "anti-South" meme as well, but....

I see nothing about the flag that is honorable or represents my heritage (350 yrs in the South). My ancestors fought in the CW, but my family also supported the Civil Rights movement (my uncle, a Methodist minister, even had a cross burned on his lawn). So, I can at least understand that some might have some misplaced conflicts.

But, where was the South, in the past and today, when blatant racist organizations such as the KKK co-opted their "symbol of heritage" and disgraced it? I believe that any right to claim that flag as symbolizing ANYTHING honorable was lost then.

[Ripley]

93. And once again: Why don't the blacks (and whites) protest?

My local mall has a store that sells nothing but items with Confederate flags on them. Many of the employees of the other stores in the mall are black. Why don't they object? Why don't they stand outside the store and hold up signs encouraging people not to shop there? I've never seen one letter to the Editor or a local newstory of people complaining about these stores. Oh, and this is 2004 not 1958 and blacks are not afraid of their homes being bombed if they complained. But those would just be the words I've heard from my black neighbors.

In fact when I asked a black guy at the gym about a white guy's shirt that had a rebel flag on it how he felt...he laughed. He said "it doesn't bother me." So if it doesn't bother him, why does it bother so many on DU? The flag does not equal a swastika.

I remember when it was popular for people to wear the rebel flag at rock concerts...hippies even! You can't take a symbol and decide who can and who can't wear it based on their personality or political views. If you are for censorship in what people can buy and sell and wear, you can't complain when the Fundies utilize censorship of "liberal" symbols.

[infusionman]

96. True again,

we have freedom of speech. And yes many are not bothered by what people are wearing or what they may say. There are people though who are bothered by it and as a nation of free people with all the freedoms we have also the responsibility to use those freedoms wisely.

We should treat others the way we would want to be treated.

[dogman]

99. I think they should be legal and a heavy tax put on them.

Take the tax money and establish a fund to pay reparations to the descendants of slaves and Union soldiers. There are blacks who are not offended by the n-word, does that make it ok? It may not equal the swastika to you if no one in your family was brutalized by the regime it represented. It isn't worth a major demonstration, you don't picket people for ignorance or you would be busy all the time.

[charlie]

102. Censor? Naw, not interested

I'm content to just point and say -- there goes dumbassery in motion.

[American Tragedy]

123. Did anybody say anything about censoring the image?

If they did, please direct me.

I honestly admit that I may have missed that.

If they did, they were dead wrong. It should not be against the law to be in bad taste, even outright offensive. I still believe that individuals have the right to interpret media freely without the oversight of a bunch of social engineers and do-gooders.

That having been said, we still ought to acknowledge and discuss these images.

[stepnw1f]

105. I Almost Pissed Myself from Laughter

Jayzusss, Hucklebee! Guhilp, guhilp...

[Radical Activist]

114. That's a future Howard Dean supporter!

Since he knows how to appeal to voters with the confederate flag on their pickups. :eyes:

[bvar22]

116. I wonder,

do the surviving Native Americans view the Stars and Stripes as the flag of Racism?

That War of Extermination continued long after 1865.

[American Tragedy]

117. Gee, I wonder what was the intended connotation of using K in a word

where there would normally be a C? It seems like I've seen this before...

[charlie]

118. Krispy Kreme?

:D

[Ripley]

120. Never seen a "Kountry Kitchen"?

I know I saw one in Rural PA, as well as in the South.

You guys really make some funny leaps here. Cutesy ignorant spellings are not limited to local yokels. Toys R Us comes to mind.

[American Tragedy]

121. But this is in a slightly different context, isn't it Ripley?

[Swamp Rat]

124. Good post. You've outted a lot of racists on this board.

To the black folks I know, the rebel flag stands for: "fuck you nigger."

All the apologists on this thread can kiss my ass!

[ret5hd]

126. ha...thanks, but really that wasn't my intent...

sometimes you see or hear something that brings out an internal scream. it is more than anger, or disgust, or revulsion.

i felt it when i heard bush speak of the dred scott decision. i felt it when i was at a kaye bailey hutchison town meeting and a racist asshole started speaking of all the mexicans around here are thieves and lazy and job stealers---then there was applause when he finished (scattered, but present). I called him (and the applausers) out then, and i want to expose this man also. hell, for all i know, they are the same person.

[RPM]

131. wow - so many deleted messages!!!!

this is some topic - really gets the old juices flowing with some folks.

Anyway, as my brother said before (and for which he was nominated, by Freepers, for the #8 dumbest thing said on DU - see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2189447&mesg_id=2189447&page= )

"Lincoln was right to crush the South in the 1860's. Someone ought to do it again."

[Maestro]

132. Sorry but there are many good people here

in the South including myself. As has been said in this thread, bigotry knows no bounds.

[RPM]

133. well then....

please teach them a little lesson.

i am a tolerant person, but this much shit from racist assheads for so long is a bit much.

and yes - i am busting the asses of racist northerners here in PA.

[Maestro]

173. I am.

Don't worry.

[newyorican]

136. If those crackers had any stones...

they raise that flag in Harlem.

It is the American Swastika to anyone with "a drop of black blood."

Raising it in Peckerwood Texas shows how cowardly they are.

[Swamp Rat]

138. ¡Exactamente!

¡Pendejos sin juevos todos!

[Yupster]

145. Maybe this guy

will raise the flag in Harlem?



There are actually a number of African-Americans in the Sons of Confederate Veterans organization, some in leadership positions.

[Phelan]

150. That is a horrible argument

To put this argument into perspective its like saying "if that fellow newyorican had any stones he wouldn't put that Kerry yard sign in his window, but rather would drive 2000 miles and put it up on the white house lawn."
Did you do that?

Also IMO displaying the Confederate Battle Flag does not make you a racist. Some racist groups have chosen to adopt the flag as one of their symbols just like the cross has been taken as a symbol of the KKK, doesn't mean that all of those 500million plus christians in the world are racist and evil

[newyorican]

154. Where to start...

To put this argument into perspective its like saying "if that fellow newyorican had any stones he wouldn't put that Kerry yard sign in his window, but rather would drive 2000 miles and put it up on the white house lawn."

1) New York is not 2000 miles from Washington.

2) A Kerry sign does not represent slavery, oppression or treason.

Did you do that?

3) No, I did not break the law and trespass at 1600 Penn Ave.

Also IMO displaying the Confederate Battle Flag does not make you a racist.

4) I did not say displaying the flag makes one racist, I leave wide open the option of being ignorant as hell.

Some racist groups have chosen to adopt the flag as one of their symbols just like the cross has been taken as a symbol of the KKK, doesn't mean that all of those 500million plus Christians in the world are racist and evil

5) The Cross does not represent slavery, oppression or treason to those "500million plus Christians" does it? That's because real Christians stood up and denounced those racist idiots and reclaimed their symbol. Something the fools that display the stars and bars never did. They just hang that POS flag up with a shit-eating grin and a wink-n-nod to the KKK (or they're incredibly ignorant).

[Phelan]

178. bleh

5) The Cross does not represent slavery, oppression or treason to those "500million plus Christians" does it? That's because real Christians stood up and denounced those racist idiots and reclaimed their symbol. Something the fools that display the stars and bars never did. They just hang that POS flag up with a shit-eating grin and a wink-n-nod to the KKK (or they're incredibly ignorant).

It really is something that I one wouldn't really be able to understand that has not spend a long time living in the south and the mentality of southerns. I myself am not a southerner and have only lived here for about 7 years now.
To those that I refer to that fly it, it is not a sign of slavery but of their sovereignty from the north. Yes, this included having slaves and I'm not about to defend that as moral, but it also includes a lot of pride in their secession from 'northern repression'.

Also the KKK is horribly unpopular, especially among the conservative southerns I know. They believe that the KKK gives conservative southerns are horribly distorted image.

btw- I am hard pressed to find contemporary accounts of Christians denouncing the crusades and the inquisition.

[UdoKier]

162. It may not make you racist

But it definitely makes you incredibly insensitive to the feelings of most Americans, especially African Americans.

If it's about southern heritage, why not make up a new flag for the south, rather than SPECIFICALLY using the one that was the symbol of the fight to PRESERVE the SLAVERY and SUBJUGATION of abducted African people, if not for the express purpose of offending or intimidating their ancestors?

It is hatred, not heritage, no matter how you spin it.

[underpants]

142. Fear Anger Lack of experience understanding and education

Lack of self confidence
Paternal complexes

Oh you were speaking directly of the Klan I thought you meant the Republicans

[ObaMania]

146. I love how posts like this bring out the white trash freepers!

Just look at all those deleted messages!

And on the sign... shouldn't it be "doo" rag?

Cracks me up!

[Radio-Active]

155. There's a Rebel Corner (with a "C") in Gatlinburg, TN

Every object in the store has a rebel flag on it.

[sundancekid]

156. and then they blaspheme by listing "christian" at the bottom of list

are they just MORANS or do they mean to be blatantly hypocrital and blasphemous???? God Have Mercy.

[Flammable Materials]

158. You think that's bad, you haven't been down I-65 in Nashville ...

... and seen the Nathan Bedford Forrest statue:

[Yupster]

164. Kind of a gaudy thing

isn't it.

[Taxloss]

163. Tapestries? Would that be the "Bayou Tapestry"?

eom

[salin]

167. anyone else catch the irony of "dew rags" among their

listed items?

[datasuspect]

169. the fabric "do" rag

as opposed to the nylon do rag is a staple among the mullet heads. that and sleeveless concert t-shirts.

[salin]

170. irony in that, as well

though I doubt they realize it...

[datasuspect]

171. actually

they use them in a similar fashion as welder's caps (landry caps).

very popular among the biker set. ironic. definitely.

[against all enemies]

172. Where's the W04 bumper sticker? Hateful and stupid, GOP faithful.