It *IS* possible to be both pro-choice and pro-life.

[Padraig18]

Another post here has set me to thinking about the conflict between 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life' people. To some extent, I believe that this is a faux conflict, and here is why I think so...

I've never met a pro-choice person who was actually IN FAVOR OF abortion. I am a pro-choice voter, insofar as I believe that a woman should have control over her own body; I fully support Roe v.Wade, IOW. Abortion is a 'last, best choice', I think, given the essential lack of viable alternatives within our society as presently organized.

I am also pro-life, on a personal, moral level. I absolutely DO believe that life begins at conception, but I also think that many, MANY of those who allegedly believe this fail to back up their personal convictions with substantive politico-legislative acts. By this, I mean that many who THINK they are 'pro-life' are in fact merely 'pro-birth'. Those who are truly pro-life must be willing to support the creation of viable, societal alternatives to abortion: a multi-level network of economic, medical and educational support for women who find themselves unwantedly pregnant. It is cruel and illogical to, on the one hand, deny a woman the right to an abortion while at one and the same time failing to extend to both her and her unborn child a present and future life-course that is not, at best, bleak.

We have a way to divide the pro-life forces who currently support the Republicans to a large degree, if we wish to sit down and separate 'sheep' from 'goats'. There are MANY 'pro-life' voters who are NOT merely 'pro-birth', and who share numerous progressive ideals with us.

[Inland]

1. What was the formulation? "legal, safe and rare"?

Nothing is wrong with giving women options to abortion and expanding choice. Contraception. Adoption. Child care. Medical care.

[Padraig18]

5. Exactly.

We should fully support viable alternatives to abortion. It can only add to our credibility on the question of choice, if we do so.

[China_cat]

20. If you ever look into it

you'll find that women who have some kind of support system (emotional, even if the financial is not as good as it could be) rarely opt for abortion even if they initially consider it.

[Padraig18]

21. Exactly.

As a society, Iceland is a great example of this.

[Khephra]

2. I have no problem with seeing it both ways

I don't believe that it's my place to choose for another whether or not they should have an abortion. So in that sense I'm totally 100% pro-choice.

However, if I was to ever face the choice with a woman that I had gotten pregnant, I severely doubt I'd choose an abortion. I have a hard time swatting flys without thinking about it for hours. I can't imagine how I'd feel about choosing an abortion.

[hippiechick]

3. Dean just discussed this on Meet The Press

Noting that 'pro-lifers' on the GOP side tend to forget the child once it's born - that a true pro-lifer would be for prenatal care, post natal care, early childhood education, and all the things that lead to health productive adults.

He said that the Dems need to re-frame the terms and that there are many in the party who are actually more pro-life (see above definition) than in the GOP.

Just because someone is pro-choice doesn't mean they advocate abortion. It can simply mean that one accepts and understands that the gov't does not have a place in making personal medical decisions, and that there should be a safe, affordable alternative in place should a woman opt in that direction.


:hippie:

[Padraig18]

7. We turned off our cable, so I missed it.

Dean understands the issue on several levels, and it's one reason I think he'd be agood spokesman for our party.

[hippiechick]

10. It wasn't on cable ...

I refuse to support Comcast, so I only have the basic networks.

:hi:


:hippie:

[Padraig18]

12. It is, when you live in BFE.

Off-air reception sucks out here.

:P

[hippiechick]

36. Hey, you're about 3 hours straight west of me !

:hi: !!


:hippie:

[Padraig18]

39. Really?

You must be in Indiana!

:hi:

[hippiechick]

42. D'oh !

:spank: :silly: :spank:


:hippie:

[Padraig18]

43. LOL!

Never clicked your profile,until just now.

:P

[Bush was AWOL]

46. I'll have to watch that later

Go Dean!

[shesemsmom]

4. I would never choose it for myself

but I believe in a womans right to choose.It is no ones business what other women do if it does not personally involve them

[mandyky]

14. This is also my view

I was 41 when I had my last child, and they asked if I wanted to do an amnio test when we discussed age. My answer was, since I would not terminate the pregnancy there was little sense in the amnio.

My son is an autistic spectrum child but I have never regretted having him.

What ticks me off about the GOP is they also want to teach mickey mouse family planning (eg abstinence only). And they bash the hell out of planned parenthood - I got my pap smears and pills and diaphrams there my entire life. I took my daughters there to know what birth control options were available, as soon as they got their periods. I am not even sure our PP even did abortions...

[Political_Junkie]

6. Thank you, Padraig,

well said.

[Padraig18]

9. You're most welcome.

It's often hard forthose of us who are both to articulate our beliefs, but it seemed to come together for me this morning.

:)

[ohioliberal]

8. First and foremost I am totally

100% Pro-Choice and I did have to face the reality of an abortion a few years ago, and it was the hardest thing I had to do, but at least I had that option, choice and safe procedure. Plus I don't believe that life begins at conception but at the first breath of life. It's not an easy thing to do and I still think of it every day of my life.

[Padraig18]

11. I can't even imagine myself in your place.

I like to think I know what I would do, in your situation, but I don't.

:hug::loveya:

[mairceridwen]

13. I am so sick

Of the I am both pro-life and pro-choice people.

Being opposed to abortion on a personal level is still PRO-CHOICE. It just means that one would CHOOSE to have the child. Even if an abortion isn't even a real choice for you on a moral level, you are still making a CHOICE. The term "pro-life{ is a political misnomer and I wish progressives and liberals who happen to be opposed to abortion on a personal (rather than political-social level) would not buy into CONSERVATIVE RIGHT WING language. It only reinforces their position which is false, they are not pro-life, they are pro-birth...and how sacred can life be to a party willing to let 1200+ American kids die for a lie?




Though I must say, you have articulated one of the most reasonable and intelligent approaches. Better than the simple, I am "pro-life for myself, and pro-choice" for everyone else. That to me reinforces the pro-choice=pro-abortion rhetoric that the right tries to pin on people who are pro-choice.


Guess what, choice means that you have a choice to have a baby or not, to raise it or not. That's what choice means. I am pro-choice, when I get pregnant, I will still be pro-choice, I will choose to have the child.

[Padraig18]

15. Thus the distinction between 'pro-life' and 'pro-birth'

You may be 'sick of us', but we still exist, and that is a political reality.

[mairceridwen]

16. you are still pro-choice

you would choose not to have an abortion. you are still making a choice, and dedicated to keeping the idea of choice a political reality for other women.


pro-life is a specific political position that supports making abortion illegal. I will never, for the life of me, understand why people who are otherwise liberal and progressive insist on using right wing language to support what is otherwise a sound, 100% pro-choice position.

[Padraig18]

18. Indeed I am pro-choice.

"...pro-life is a specific political position that supports making abortion illegal...."

NO, that is simply how YOU choose to define it.

[mairceridwen]

22. whatever.

You keep buying into their rhetoric, then they will always be a few steps a head of us.

People who are pro-choice but opposed to abortion on a personal level have a responsibility to articulate and define their position and not fall back on right wing language that was designed with the SPECIFIC INTENT of discrediting the pro-choice movement.

[Padraig18]

23. I *have* articulated and defined a position.

My o/p does so. I have not 'bought into' anything, either, despite the condescending and dismissive nature of your accusation.

[mairceridwen]

24. like i said

you have made one of the more reasonable and intelligent arguments that I wish more people would do. But that doesn't mean "pro-life" as a concept, has to fall anywhere into the discussion. Say, pro-choice and anti-abortion. Why are these individuals so quick to adopt political language that was designed specifically to discredit reproductive rights is beyond me.


i need caffeine is what i need.

[Padraig18]

27. I know a ton of people who hold my view on ths subject.

We can't help what labels others choose to put on us, not should we be held responsible for that happening. What we CAN do (and are starting to do) is to begin separating ouselves from the 'pro-birthers' in the manner I've suggested. My diocese, for example, recently got the Legislature to enact a new fee on real-estate transactions which will fund rent subsidies/grants for poor families, single parents and pregnant, unmarried women and other single people. This is an example of what I mean by putting our moral beliefs into action, to create viable alternatives to abortion.

I think we're essentially arguing about semantics.

[mairceridwen]

28. I like to argue about semantics

your diocese sounds swell.

where are you from? I'm a northerner in Atlanta and way out of touch with any religious going ons.

i'm also a reverend

[Padraig18]

29. The Diocese of Sprinfield, IL.

We have a very progressive bishop in Bishop Lucas, and you are getting a very good new Archbishop in Bishop Gregory.

:)

[mairceridwen]

31. i'm not connected to any church

I'm head of my own one-woman congregation

but I am pleased that we are getting a good Archbishop.

[Padraig18]

32. He's a good, no-nonsense type.

He was President of the American Council of Bishops, and has been absolutely fearless in dealing with the issue of sexual-abuse of children by clergy. He's very much a good blend of 'new' and 'old' Church.

:)

[mairceridwen]

40. awesome

we need more like that.

i bet me mum would even like him and she's still recovering from her catholic upbringing

[alcuno]

25. Get over it. I'm sick of people having to put labels on everyone.

The fact of the matter is that many of us consider abortion to be a sin; not some legal issue, but a moral one. It's difficult for me to be supportive of someone commiting what I consider to be a sin, so to just blithely say I'm pro-choice is a real stretch. Again we have people running around trying to put labels on everyone. It's more complicated that that.

I consider abortion to be the taking of life but I'm not willing to legally impede the right of a woman to a medical procedure. That's the best you'll get out of someone like me.

[mairceridwen]

26. your position

sounds pretty pro-choice to me.

if we keep things to political positions, then labels won't even begin to approach personal moral and religious beliefs. And that is what reproductive rights and being pro-choice should be about...articulating a political position. one's personal feelings should ALWAYS be considered that, personal and in no way captured by simplistic labels.

[alcuno]

48. Your label, not mine.

"pro" means in favor of. I'm hardly in favor of people commiting what I consider to be the taking of life. Notice that I didn't say a life.

Truthfully, I'm just sick and tired of all the absolute positions where you have to be on this side or on the other side. There are both ends of the spectrum and then there are the rest of us who think you are all nuts.

[mairceridwen]

63. and you are making the same simplistic assumption

that my choice to designate my political position as firmly pro-choice captures the full complexity of my personal feelings. it doesn't.

If you consider that "pro-life" as a phrase/concept was created solely to discredit the pro-choice movement, then you might understand why I have a hard time with so-called liberals using right wing rhetoric and reinforcing their message rather than taking the time to distinguish between political opinion and logic (which is relevant to legislation and activism) and personal moral and emotional inclinations (which is not so much)

[alcuno]

65. "so-called liberals"

Yeah, that'll help your case. You've let them define what it means to be pro-life. Steal it away.

[RC]

17. If people could understand that life is a continuum...

A continuum is a continuous extent, succession, or whole, no part of which can be distinguished from neighboring parts except by arbitrary division.

Both the egg and the sperm are alive well before they meet. No new life is created. If either are not alive, nothing happens.
And when they join, at first only more of each of the newly joined cell are created by cell division. This is a new life? No, it is a continuum of existing life...

[mairceridwen]

19. That sounds really nice

But I could see how that could also be appropriated into anti-choice rhetoric

I mean that is sort of what is at the root of the Catholic anti-birth control anti-masterbation position. every sperm is sacred

I wish people could understand that the right to an abortion is an issue of bodily integrity and autonomy and even IF a fetus is a "life" that it has no rights to another person's body.

[JitterbugPerfume]

34. no matter what position you take

abortion is a moral choice

not a political choice

I am pro choice for many reasons , but being faced with the CHOICE is agonizing

I am with Kef on this---I not like to swat a fly . Facing the choice of having an abortion is unthinkable

but I did assist a person I love very much in making that decision once --and it was the right one for her and the unborn child <sigh> but I still think about it=====

[mairceridwen]

38. of course...

but morals shouldn't dictate legislation

[Ardee]

30. A clear and concise statement

on this inflammatory issue..thanks.

I am certain that there are many, on both sides of the aisle (so to speak), who feel exactly as Paidraig has stated. The problem then would seem to be finding enough common ground on which to make a stand.

[Padraig18]

35. Here's some common ground:

Let's legislate and adequately fund:

--- Sex ed.
--- Women's health clinics.
--- Increased access to housing and education for pregnant, single women.
--- Expanded free/subsidized child-care.
--- Expand WIC, etc. .


There are more, but these would be a start.

:)

[Ardee]

45. The Progressive agenda

As a dyed in the wool liberal I have been stumping for those very agenda items most of my political life. There was, at one time, a lot of support for them from the Democrats as well.

Now, with the usurpation of our politics by the extremist, these necessary functions of a truly free society are deemed secondary to other goals, such as murder, rapine, forced stamping of "democracy" on people who haven't a clue as to what that means or requires, and, locally, the elimination of any strictures on the morality or legality of corporate actions.

The question,if I may, is how to make your quite concise list policy?
I do belief that the American people, if not distracted by hate speech and hateful actions, would overwhelmingly support such an agenda.

[Padraig18]

50. Take the first, baby step.

I'm very involved with 'hunger' type projects, and volunteer at our local food-bank and am actively involved in Second Harvest. imagine my surprise, then, when at the first organizational meeting of the East-central Illinois Food Bank, who was there but MANY apostolic, pentecostal and otherwise 'fundamentalist' Protestants. Even more surprising was how supportive they were of our 'mission', and without the 'strings' you might think they would have wanted/insisted on. Nope, they were as fully aware of the needs of hungry people as anyone else, and have worked VERY hard to help us in our mutual work.

I think we often timesmake unwarranted assumptions about groups of people, because we forget that they ARE people, and often just as diverse as we ourselves are.

:)

[Ardee]

54. I'm no baby..;-]

Think Globally , Act locally....

We have been doing such work for four decades, Padraig. I belong to a group that has rebuilt and upgraded senior centers and child care facilities, we have registered voters and raised funds for many social programs, including Second Harvest (small world, huh), Food not Bombs and the Glide Memorial outreach programs for the homeless to name only a small fraction. We have been doing this so long that our children are now moving in to replace us doddering old folks.....

While , in this long effort to be of some small help, we have interacted with politicians on local, state and national levels. During election years they have been universally receptive and have even helped somewhat. I'm sure you see the hidden meaning in the above.....

[Padraig18]

59. I do see your point.

:hi:

[unblock]

33. that's because "pro-life" is a lie. they're "anti-choice"

if they were really "pro-life", they would care about the health of the mother (in particular, when it came to abortion to save the life of the mother), and they would care about what happens to the child that's born to a woman who preferred an abortion.

they would also be opposed to the death penalty and war in general.

but "pro-life" sounds better than "anti-choice", so that's what they use, just as "we're bringing freedom to iraq" sounds better than "we're taking oil from iraq".

[Padraig18]

37. Again, 'pro-birth' vs. 'pro-life'.

'Anti-choice' is fairly accurate.

[hippiechick]

44. Ding ding ding ... we have a winner !!

:toast: Very succinctly put, Unblock.


:hippie:

[SheilaT]

41. Pro-Choice is the true pro-life position.

The so-called "pro-life" position is in reality a Forced Birth stand, and we should take up calling it by that. Unless someone else can come up with an even better term.

If the anti-choice people have there way this country will eventually be like Romania, with unwanted babies dumped in miserable orphanages where they receive the most basic of physical care and grow up stunted and mentally deficient because of a total lack of real care and love.

[Bush was AWOL]

47. Very well said!!!!

[Padraig18]

51. Thank you!

:hi:

[davsand]

49. I think we are close on an agreement and it is a matter of terminology.

If we can get past the emotion that the terminology calls up, I think a lot of people feel the same way:

An unchosen pregnancy is nothing ANYONE should have to deal with. I think there is a consensus that facing an unwanted pregnancy is painful and a highly emotional situation for everyone involved. Further, I think that a lot of us are aware that there is a lot left to be done to bring us closer to the day when EVERY pregnancy is a chosen one.

Beyond THAT point, I think there is a lot of emotion and hurt clouding the issue.

My own view is that as long as women are facing the issue of unwanted/unchosen pregnancies, there will be abortions chosen as alternatives to birthing an unchosen child. Right or wrong--no matter when life actually begins--some women facing the prospects of an unwanted (or unchosen) pregnancy will attempt to remove the problem.

Realizing and acknowledging THAT single human aspect of it is critical to forming any public policy on abortion, IMO.

If you feel that those women need to be offered a safe humane alternative to unwanted pregnancies, then you probably have grudgingly accepted the reality that abortion will continue to be an issue as long as our contraceptive technology and our sex education are at current levels.

I hate that abortion is sought by anyone--I hate that they are forced to face an unchosen pregnancy--but as long as it IS our reality that women DO end up pregnant without having CHOSEN to be that way, then I will fight to the death to keep those women safe from the back alleys and the predators who populate them when abortion is illegal.

It is my dream that I should live to see a day when no woman EVER faces a pregnancy that she didn't choose.

I dream of the day when our contraceptive choices are so good, and freely enough available that no couple ever faces pregnancy they didn't want.

I dream of the day when we ALL understand our bodies and our biology enough to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

We need better education and better contraceptive technology that is freely available. ONCE we have that in place THEN we will see a reduction of the number of abortions. I just wonder if we can ever progress enough to get to THAT point.


Laura

[Padraig18]

52. Nothing 'gruding' in my acceptance, at all.

Logical, I think.

:)

[davsand]

55. Yes, you are being logical AND pragmatic.

That is dificult to do with anything this close to the heart. I admire you deeply for being ABLE to do it.

I have a daughter--she's "seven and a HALF" and I worry a great deal about her and the other little girls who are growing up right now. I tend to get extremely emotional when I consider what lies ahead for this generation of females.

I am supremely greatful that the women who came before that fought so hard for us all to even GET to this point. I am also extremely happy that we have men like you in our party!


Laura

[Padraig18]

58. We owe those women a great deal.

I'm a pragmatist, rather than a rigid ideologue. In a less-than-perfect world, one cannot adhere to rigid ideologies, but must seek out that which works, and is humane at the same time. We must never forget that this troublesome issue is about people, not fetuses, contraception or body parts.

:hi:

[Hippo_Tron]

53. FACT: Abortion rates have gone UP under the Bush administration

FACT: White male pro-lifers make bullshit generalizations about people who have abortions always being teenage girls who have unprotected sex on prom night and dont' want to have the baby.

Even if you don't give a shit about a woman's right to choose, banning abortion is counter-productive. Women will just go to unsafe and unsanitary underground abortion clinics.

Howard Dean got it right, pro-lifers aren't doing anything to prevent abortion becaue they are against almost any sort of government assistance for counciling and helping women without the financial means to raise their children.

THIS is the argument that Kerry needed to make when somebody asked him the abortion quesetion in the debate and chimpy claimed that he was "pro-life".

[Padraig18]

62. "...Howard Dean got it right...."

EXACTLY! If we are to assert our credibility on the issue of being pro-choice, we must not only point out the hypocrisy of the pro-life Bush folks, but make sure that we ourselves fully support AND fund alternatives to abortion, something they do not.

[proud patriot]

56. Yes my mother-in-law is both

She believes God gave us free choice .
She herself would never have an abortion
and believes those who do will have to answer
for it before God . She votes Democratic
and is Pro-Choice .

[infusionman]

57. I believe...

That we are have a God given right to choose (free will) what we want to do or believe in but one day we must be accountable for our choices.

My opinion on abortion is it is OK as long as it is not used as a means of contraception. I just can't see a woman going through life with a child that is the product of a rape or incest, no matter if it is adopted or not.

I also believe abortion must occur to save a woman's life. She was there first.

I absolutely do not believe in late term abortions IE those in which the fetus could live independently outside the body. I especially don't believe in Partial Birth Abortions. There is no reason for it.

[SarahB]

60. In a sense.

I fully support a woman's right to choice, but for myself personally, it would be extremely difficult to imagine being able to abort a child conceived within a loving relationship (if I were raped, that's something else all together and wouldn't hesitiate to have one), but it would break my heart to have an abortion in a situation within a relationship.

Yes, I've been there and yes, I had the child. In retrospect, it's hard to know what the "right" thing to do was because without her, I wouldn't be the person I am now.

[Padraig18]

61. Bless you.

:hug:

[Padraig18]

64. Night-shift kick. n/t