North/South: What are your thoughts on this slice-of-life American story?

[Stinky The Clown]

There are many threads all afire right now about North vs South, The Confederate Flag, Northern vs Southern culture, etc. I would like to share a gentle story from my own personal experiences, and hear your reactions, whether you're a Northerner or a Southerner.

I was born and raised in Connecticut of 1st generation Italian immigrant parents. I grew up knowing nothing about the confederate flag - or southerners, for that matter - beyond what I may have learned in history class.

Early in my career I was transferred to a job in Chattanooga, after already having worked in Charleston, SC and Durham, NC for several years. The time was the late 1970s. My secretary was a woman perhaps ten years younger than me. We were talking about Christmas celebrations, and that led to a discussion of personal backgrounds and family. I talked about growing up "Italian". She was interested but acted as if the whole notion of growing up "anything" was foreign to her.

I asked her what her background was. She looked at me with a look that to this day I'm not sure I understood. Not a bad look ... more ..... confused? a show of misunderstanding? What it was *not* was anger or anything on that side of the emotional scale.

She thought about my question and said, "I'm Southern."

That stopped me cold. At the time, I tried to clarify my question. She said her great-great-great-great Granddaddy was Scottish. There was some Irish in her family, too, and also some Cherokee (I think it was Cherokee, but no matter).

In the end, she was "Southern."

And that's how she thought of herself. I have to assume that it is also how all of her family thought of themselves. Just "Southern".

In retrospect, I think that conversation was an indication of a cultural divide. In the South, I was a Yankee. I didn't feel derision in that term -- if anything, I was an interesting novelty!

But I'd never thought of myself, or other people, in quite that way before. In the neighborhood where I grew up, it was normal to identify ourselves and each other as Italian, German, Irish, Polish, Negro (the accepted term in the 1950's and early 1960's when I was in school), Jewish, Hungarian, and any of a number of ethnic backgrounds. There was nothing inherently discriminatory in that -- we all had pride in ourselves, but diversity was just a non-issue.

In contrast, my secretary's view of herself and her heritage was all wrapped up in a purely American paradigm: she was Southern. I was still relating myself to a country I'd never even visited.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this story: Southern, Northern, or other.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

1. I am southern also

I have Irish, German, and Indian in my background but I have never seen Germany or Ireland so I can not relate much to that heritage. I have been in one of thos "heated" north/south threads and honestly it boggles my mind. People say, fuck the south (pardon my french) they need to get over it. Find a new symbol forget the past. I thought that we should always remember or past no matter how terrible it may have been. When you forget your past mistakes you are likely to repeat them. But as a born and bred native of the south I can say that all the south bashing is irritating me highly. Especially when it comes from people who claim to "know" the intentions and motivations of every single person living here. The south has it's fair share of problems but I have a news flash EVERY state does it's not excluse to the south.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. Certainly people in the Midwest identify themselves by ancestry

If someone asks what my ancestry is, I say "I'm Norwegian, German, and Latvian." Just about everyone I know can do that. People will say of small towns in Minnesota, "That's a Swedish town" or "That's a Czech town," even though nobody speaks the old country languages anymore.

I think that Southern whites are more likely to stem exclusively from the British Isles than people in other parts of the U.S., and outside places like New Orleans, the South never had huge influxes of other varieties of Europeans. (There were the Salzburgers in Georgia, French Huguenots in South Carolina, and Moravians in North Carolina, but nothing like the influxes of European immigrants in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that built the large and visible ethnic communities in cities such as New York and Chicago.)

[Bluzmann57]

3. When I was in grade school here in Iowa

we had to fill out a questionaire about testing or some damn thing and I asked my mom about our heritage. She and dad told me but they also instructed me to fill in "other" and state proudly that I am an American. The point was that nationalities don't matter. Yankee, Rebel, the Civil War is long since past and we are all Americans. I still state that to this day if someone asks me what my nationality is. If they ask me about my heritage I look them in the eye and say, "I was born in Illinois, raised in Iowa, and still live in Iowa". Therefore, I am a Midwestern American, I guess.

[bryant69]

4. Part of that is the legacy of the Civil War of course

They tried to forge a southern identity in order to justify sepearting from the union. Some of it was a very concious effort, particularly by some writers and artists--but also newspapermen and preachers and so on and so forth. Setting up a case for the south being seperate from the north. That's where this originates to a certain extent.

Actually that's one of the somewhat hidden faultlines in teh Republican Party, is that split between the South and the West. While both are currently largely republican, how they react to cultural issues will probably diverge. At least I think it will.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[deminflorida]

5. Southerners are just that, Southerners....

the majority of people in the south have always considered themselves of a unique culture. Lets face the facts here...

We in the south are descended from an aristocratic society that owned slaves. After the Civil War, and the defeat of the southern army came the Republican carpet baggers. Because of the reconstruction period, I would say that being southern was something the north actually wanted.

http://www.truthinhistory.org/carpetbaggers.htm

[lgardengate]

8. Sorry but, VERY few folks in civil war days were rich or

had slaves.Slave owners whiped up support from the poor southerners who did most of the fighting and dying by making it about states rights,honor (standing up to the north) etc.

[deminflorida]

9. Oh I agree, totally....

but the controlling society was aristocratic in nature.

[RPM]

34. Thanks for Pointing that Out.

Antebellum South was a very stratified society with wealth distribution not unlike that today. Something like 10% of the population owned 85-90% of the slaves; A large portion of the populace owned only a hand ful of slaves, and a similarly large percentage owned no slaves at all.

The way I see it, those without the slaves fought a war to defend the wealthy peoples' rights to own slaves, despite the fact that most of them had little or any vested interest in the 'peculiar institution'.
Again, sounds alot like modern times...

[DoNotRefill]

24. Most "Southerners" are descended from "Buckra".

There ain't no "aristocracy" about it.

And if you don't know who the buckra are, think "man wearing 'wife-beater' and handcuffs on 'COPS'".

[lgardengate]

6. I guess i identify myself about the same,because...

I am also from the south,my family (both sides) have been around Virginia/West Virginia for generations (as far as we can trace back our family,almost). I am decended from someone who came on the Mayflower,and some who fought the revoulationary war.I have a Jewish branch to the family WAY back but also Scottish,Irish, and mostly English, but how else do you really feel but "southern" or "American" when your family has been here so long that THIS culture is the only one you know?

When you have no recieps,language,or traditions handed down to you from "the old country" and this is all you have, there isn't much else to feel a part of.

[cattleman22]

27. It is the exact same for me. n/t

[Geek_Girl]

7. I live in the South

I was raised in Florida, and I'm mixed racially. I'm definitely an oddity here and but I have never felt discriminated against. I have several co-workers who I consider to be intelligent people. But occasionally they say the most racist, stereo typical garbage and don't even realize it. They believe Black and Whites should not date or marry. It's still a major social taboo. I've even heard one of them say once that the Klan performed important social functions in southern society like punishing men for being abusive to their families. They really have some bizarre idealistic view of historic southern society. They liked to talk about the civil war and of course always portray the confederate army as some kind of freedom fighters.

They are all IT workers and know that they're jobs are being outsourced and are scared about their futures but won't blame the current administration. It's just weird and I get tired of the hypocrisy so I've distanced myself from them recently.

[deminflorida]

11. Your workplace sounds like mine.....

only difference is that I'm the IT Engineer where I work and probably one of only like three democrats out of 60 or 70 other employees. Even most of the union guys are Repubs. Don't you just love Florida....

If the weather and fishing weren't so good I'd move north, or even better, back to Italy.

[Samurai_Writer]

42. I'm in Florida too...

Moved here from Texas 3 years ago, and I swear, people in Florida are the most racist, homophobic, bigoted people I have ever met. I'm mixed race as well, and I have one employee who INSISTS on calling blacks 'colored'. As in, "Oh, you know Jane, the Colored girl in Accounting." She had absolutely NO idea that term was derogatory, and when I TOLD her it was and I found it almost as offensive as the N word, she says "I've always said 'Colored', I don't see anything wrong with it."

Of course, she's one of those straight, white, Christian, upper-middle class women who only have straight, white, Christian, upper-middle class friends.

[Mabeline]

10. Your co-workers family genealogy sounds

like it could be me. I am from the South, born and raised in the southernmost part of North Carolina, I grew up with a daddy who was born and raised in Kentucky, and a mom who was born in North Carolina but raised in Pennsylvania. Grandparents who are second generation American. I do genealogy and so have learned I have everythng from American Indian to Irish to Scot to French roots.

When ask my nationality I am an American (and proudly so) when ask where are you from, it's North C'lina.

[punpirate]

12. I have one foot in each of the worlds...

... of North and South. I was born and raised, in my early years, in the South. I was educated in the North. Ethnically, I've always associated myself with my Irish forebearers in the North. Intellectually, I've gravitated to Southern writers who saw the South for what it was--a flawed system which depended upon old Scripture to defend the indefensible--an economic and social structure which took slavery to be acceptable and necessary.

To my mind, people living in the South who define themselves first as Southerners fall into two groups--those who have never and can never accept that the old ways were wrong, and those who have regional attachments to the land that are so strong that they see them as paramount.

I can't say into which category your acquaintance falls. There's not enough information.

Cheers.

[misanthrope]

13. Hold on now...

"To my mind, people living in the South who define themselves first as Southerners fall into two groups--those who have never and can never accept that the old ways were wrong, and those who have regional attachments to the land that are so strong that they see them as paramount."

I readily identify myself as Southern, because culturally that is correct. More specifically, I am a 20th Century Southern American. That is the basis for my experiences, and cultural touchpoints. It explains my speech patterns, my palate, my acclimation to weather, holiday customs, a whole lot more than most of us realize.

However, I am one of the harshest critics of the American South. In no way do I feel any longing for the "Old South" and celebrate its fall most feverishly.

And neither do I feel a brute allegiance to the land that is paramount. I am certainly an American, first and foremost, and I see the South as it is, warts and all. Given a steadfast choice between my principles and the region of my birth, my principles would win everytime. I think those Confederates who rationalized their decisions through "duty to the homeland" made the wrong choice.

Maybe some of us use the term "Southern" because we believe in cultural anthropology and see it all around us, whether we want to or not.

[punpirate]

14. Maybe you mistake...

... what I say about landedness as "homeland."

That's not at all what I mean. I mean association with a place for its intrinsic personal value, the esthetics of the place--not for its cultural baggage.

Cheers.

[dddem]

15. I identify myself as a Democrat.

Seriously, I used to consider myself Irish-catholic (you needed to include the last part, it was as important as the first). Then I dated a man from Lebanon. His family hated me because I was American (mind you, they lived here). Before that I never really thought about it. I guess I took it for granted, even though I was brought up believing this was the greatest country on earth.
Now that I'm older, I've come to feel that our ties to regions or faiths are what keep us from being tolerant of those not like us. Now I try to think of myself first as a human, who shares space on the planet with other humans; and secondly, an American.
BTW - I'm from Massachusetts, but seriously considering a move to Virginia.

[eyepaddle]

16. I am a midwestern polygot nordic

type--and yes in Minnesota you are sort of aware of Scandinavian roots. Growing up I always thought they were boring because it was so common--everybody was Swedish or Norwegian, not like one of those cool rare ethnic groups like Italian! I went to college with a lot of people from Chicago and realized that Scandinavian is in fact not the default background all acroos the US. It wasn't shocking or anything, just kind of a gradual realization.

When I travel internationally I have no doubt that I am an AMERICAN. I'm not a yahoo flag waver, it's just my frame of reference amd where I am from. However as an American with a fondness for Geography and international history you are often looked at as a novelty.

I also lived for a few years in Southwest Louisiana, and that might be the exception that proves the rule. While the Acadians (cajuns) are definitely Southern--in fact they considered anybody north of I 10 Yankees--they also tend to have a strong sense of their ethnic heritage. A strong pride in their "French-ness" for want of a term.

[melnjones]

17. Amish ancestry, all the way...

I'm sure not many people here can say that:-) My father was raised Amish, my mom's dad was raised Amish, and my mom's mom's parents were raised Amish. A good part of my family is bilingual, speaking English and Pennsylvania Dutch (really, low German). Although my last name isn't a typical Amish name (my great-great-great-great-great grandfather was adopted by an Amish family but kept his last name), the rest of my family tree is full of Yoders, Bontragers, Grabers, etc. etc. I didn't know it was out of the ordinary growing up in my Mennonite hometown, but going to college just 2 1/2 hours away proved that wrong. I've realized that in my family there truly is a cultural conflict between the Amish/Mennonite heritage and modern society...interesting and somewhat frustrating, but more interesting than anything.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Thanks for your replies, but there still is an unanswered question here

Thanks to everyone who took the time to answer this post. However, I still find myself wondering about cultural differences in the US. In the story I posted, the lady with whom I was talking identified herself as a Southerner in the very same way I identified myself as an Italian-American.

It occurs to me that she may well see herself (or perhaps she may see *everyone*) as just "American", but an American who is Southern. I'm not sure what I to think about this. Recognizing that this conversation took place in the 1970's - about 30 years ago - is it still applicable?

In a larger sense, it strikes me that if I could understand why she felt as she did and why she answered as she did, it could help in understanding what now seems to be a huge cultural chasm in the US, but which, I suspect, is not nearly as large as some would have us believe.

Does anyone else see this?

Thanks!

[bobbieinok]

19. not really what you're talking about, but....

I grew up in the 40s and 50s in OK. Then I went to college in TX.

There was major culture shock. At that time, everyone in TX 'knew' people from TX were patriotic Americans; people from any other state, especially from the north-east, were suspect......you couldn't be sure they were really patriotic.

A colleague had a son recently at the U of TX; she said he found the same attitude.

I've lived in OK, gone to school 4 years in TX and 7 years in CA, lived 1 year in FL and 20+ years in IA.......TX was the only state I ever found that mindset.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. I'll probably get flamed for this, but it has been my experience that

Texas is a rather ..... uh ..... unique place. I'd have to say, having visited Texas many times, having relatives in Houston and a business partner in Austin, having done business in most of Texas' larger cities, having worked relatively long term assignments in both Houston and Dallas, that Texas is ..... Texas.

I found it different in subtle ways from anywhere else in the south. Some like to think of Texas as another country, or maybe just as a country within our country. That notion squares with my own experiences.

I could easily be wrong and freely admit no particular understanding of Texas, but that's how it seems to me.

[carolinayellowdog]

20. Less Southern identification in each generation, probably

Hey,

My guess is that self-identification as a "Southerner" has probably been on a steady decline for two generations at least. In my native Virginia, "mid-Atlantic" terminology has correspondingly increased. As for not being able to claim an ethnic identity in the way Northerners do, much of the coastal South lacks the ethnic diversity of the Northeast and Midwest-- everyone is either English or African or a mixture of the two, with claims of Native American ancestry equally common on both sides. Ethnicity thus becomes identical to race.

About the "huge cultural chasm," I think in large part it's a question of framing. If pundits had decided that the election results were about "the East," "the West," and "the Middle," people in Virginia and North Carolina would have no trouble identifying themselves as Easterners. All the blame for Bush would fall on "the Middle" and the East and West could congratulate ourselves on our relative enlightenment compared to those flyover people. Instead, because the pundits have decided to focus on the 50+ percent Bush support in "the South" and ignore the 60 to 70 percent Bush support in the Great Plains and Mountain West, DUers from the latter places can join in the attacks on "the South" without the least sense of irony or hypocrisy.

Virginia has more in common with Maryland than with Texas, and Texas has more in common with New Mexico than with Virginia-- "Southern" solidarity notwithstanding. Southern identity once was intertwined with the legacy of the Confederacy and Reconstruction. But that is all fading, and will continue to do so, just as the dialect fades gradually.

CYD

[Stinky The Clown]

23. I live in Maryland, so I understand fully what you're saying about

Virginia. True enough, most of my experiences in Virginia are in NoVa or Tidewater, but I, too, see Virginia much more like Maryland than the rest of the South. After living here for nearly 25 years, and seeing three kids go from either little ones or actual birth to adults here, I've come to think of it as home.

Your observation that Virginia is more like Maryland than Texas can be carried even further. All of Maryland and most of Virginia have more in common with the Northeast than with the south.

Thanks for your insight about the "huge cultural chasm". It makes a lot of sense. And your observation about the south being far less "solid Bush" than the Plains and Mountain states is spot on. In many ways, the south gets a bum rap on being heavily tilted to the right. I'd have to agree that the Plains and Mountains are much more heavily right than the south, in general. Georgia and Texas are probably the heavier right leaners.

As to your last point - the dialect. Southern accents. I agree. It seems to be fading. Certainly among my kids' generation. My business partner, who now lives in Austin, TX, was born and raised in Tidewater. She's about 40 and has no accent that could be called in any way Southern. A friend of mine from my Navy days in the 60's, also born and raised in Tidewater, but a bit more than 10 years earlier, has a thick "Southern" accent.

What I'm really trying to do with this post is get a better of understanding of people and the larger diversities (and similarities) of our country. Your comments were very helpful.

[cattleman22]

28. Slighlty different perspective

I would not say that most of Virginia has more in common with the Northeast than with the south. I would say urban Virginia has more in common with the Northeast and rural Virginia has more in common with the South.

[giasangria]

39. if you live in the south

you may not want to identify as italian, jewish etc, because chances are you will be discriminated against. And I think there are more recent immigrants in the north because most first landed in the northeast (maybe I am wrong) I know hardly any Jewish people here in alabama, nor identifiable ethnic groups. But I used to live in Atlanta and I used to work in an orthodox community there. Not much reason for an immigrant to move south is my guess. And the ones with more distant ties to other countries probably forgot once the Civil War was over.

[giasangria]

40. n/t

[annabanana]

44. I think that the poster that identified

The defeat and dislocation of the Civil War may have the bead on this. I am a Yankee (Mass, Ct. Me) for generations. My Ethinic background is mostly English, some Welsh/Scot...a smidge Native.
Mayflower Mom and Wompanaug Pop. Our family never thought about the ethnicities involved, and "American" was the only identity that ever meant anything to me.

When the Family moved into the Mid-Atlantic region, I began to consider myself a "New Englander"

[hyphenate]

21. I am a first generation American

born of indeterminate parenthood (on my father's side), but raised by Canadian parents. I was born and raised in Brookline and Boston, Massachusetts, and I was always proud of my heritage.

Boston is a popular city for Irish-- and Scottish--Canadians to come to from Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. There are deep roots here in that area (and for many others (such as Italian) as well) and there were very few times when I felt an outsider in my home city.

Boston has always been known for being a very cosmopolitan city, and for having many, many cultural groups as well. In fact, I think we knew more 1st generation Americans of European descent than we did those of Southern birth. It just never really entered the equation.

I think over the years of my growing up, we acquired a great deal of what we "knew" about Southerners from books, TV or film. There was the sleepy, uncomplicated small town atmosphere of Mayberry; there was the fiercely emotional (and to many of us, ditziness) attitude from Gone With the Wind; and there was the hatred and bigotry of To Kill A Mockingbird. It was never said outloud, but it seemed most of my life that life in the south was a lot different than life in a city such as Boston--there were few parallels to draw between them. In history, of course, we learned even further that the South was different. They had waged a war over "slaves" and many of us, obviously from a Northern city, found that incomprehensible. In some ways, even now, it is difficult to think of the south outside of the slave issue for Northerners. It's also hard to draw a line where the north ends and the south begins. I visited friends in Maryland once, and found the fact that their "accent" wasn't more southern to be odd.

I think in reality, the South likes to consider itself different from the rest of the country. They seem to have a different view of many things in the world--whether that is good or bad isn't relevant. Their perception in many cases is just a little "off" of the rest of us, and it's sometimes difficult to ascertain why it's different.

I've met many people across the country, having driven three times across, and spending more than one bus trip as well doing the same. I have always found that those from the South seem to enjoy life at a slower pace than many northerners, which was refreshing, and they seemed in many ways to be able to stop and smell the roses more as well. In my personal dealings with these people, I've always concluded my business with them on an "up" and not a "down" because they seem to have a more optimistic approach toward things than a lot of Northerners.

[BeFree]

25. As a Southerner

I was taken back a bit by the opening post. I tell people I am a Southerner, and I really never stopped to think it through. I just was.

Hyphenate, however hit on some of the key points that I would say distinguishes we Southerners from the rest of America. We do have a more easy way of doing things, tho, imo, we are fast learning how to make it harder, like the rest of yall. <grin>

Southerners are laid back and not to keen on trying too hard to impress others. We don't think your clothes, or car, or house should be used to judge what's inside the person. Are you mistake prone, can't spell too good, or ugly? That don't make no never mind, you are what you are, but you better be nice or all hell's gonna break loose.

I've this theory: Southerners, being mostly rural folk, living pretty much alone, took kindly to seeing neighbors when one showed up. Visiting became something special, so hospitality became the way to showing how gald you was for the visit.

You was so glad to see anybody, that all false airs was washed away and real friendliness ruled the day. Thus the term 'Southern Hospitality' became well known.

Another thing about Southerners: We don't take kindly to wimps, yella dogs, or scaredy cats. We like a person that stands up to bullies, rails against the machine, and speaks their mind. In that is a hint to why the pukes are so often picked over dems when it comes to national politics.

I'm proud to be a Southerner, and really am comfortable living amongst the people here. Suffice to say that I've traveled quite a bit and always found an inner peace when coming back into the south. It does have a bit to do with the land, the sky, and the humidity, too.

Yall come see us now, ya hear?

[lukasahero]

30. "We don't take kindly to wimps, yella dogs, or scaredy cats."

"We like a person that stands up to bullies, rails against the machine, and speaks their mind."

While this whole thread has been interesting, this quote sticks out most to me. Mainly because I wonder if the writer has ever met anyone from Southie (as in Boston, MA) because this pretty much describes most of the people I know around here.

It's curious to me watching everyone (myself included I suspect) talk these days about "our" section of the country or "our" religion or "our" way of thinking as being something so different (more special? better?) than "others". Just interesting to me, I guess, and wondering if we'll ever bridge the divide while we continue to revere it.

[BeFree]

37. Take it kindly, there Southie

Will we ever bridge the divide? Well, it seems we have something in common: None of us likes wimps, etc.

Fact is, this writer has met many, many people from the North, most of them after they had moved 'Down South'. For the most part these migrants are tolerable, but as a friend of mine coined, there are some "Cranky Yankees".

Are there some dunderheads in the south? Oh yeah. Are there some mean, no good, just as soon kick your ass as look at ya, rednecks here? Yup. Same thing in South Boston, I suppose.

Politically speaking, southern politics is as mean and nasty as it can be in America, and we who work in the system know it. But does it compare to say, Boston's politics? This writer doesn't really know, but he supposes it is just as bad there.

Being that we are all Dems, and realizing that being Dems is a uniting force, we all recognize that force is depleted by the 'F the South' scribblings we see on DU, eh?

[cattleman22]

29. Interesting Perspective

You said "n history, of course, we learned even further that the South was different. They had waged a war over "slaves" and many of us, obviously from a Northern city, found that incomprehensible. In some ways, even now, it is difficult to think of the south outside of the slave issue for Northerners"



In my history classes in VA, the focus was always on VA's slow response to secede and how it was more about State's Rights and not allowing the US government to march armies across VA. We had to read R. E. Lee's speech about seccession.

[cattleman22]

26. I completely understand someone answering the question that way

My fmaily has been in Va since the late 1600's. I know the nationality of my last name, but I have absolutely no connection with that country. I am also know the nationality of all 4 of my grandparents last names. All of those families have also been in the US for centuries as well. My heritage is so thoroughly mixed, that to answer Southern or even Virgnian would be more accurate than saying the country that my last name came from.

[Tem]

31. Texas Southerner

I think one poster has already pretty much nailed it on the head so I'm probably just going to be repeating them. My family tree comes from all over the place in Europe but can be broken down to my fathers side of the family which started in France and moved to Chicago way back in the early 1800's and my mothers side of the family came from Germany and moved to New Orleans way back in the early 1800's. And I was born a Texan and a Southerner and have lived in Texas and Louisiana all 27 of my years although I have traveled to almost all the continents in this world and seen a variety of cultures both good and bad. So I can say with confidence that I am a Southerner.

What I have patterned my life on is being is a Southern Gentlemen that everyone has heard of but rarely met because to be southern means (and I don't mean this in a bad way towards anyone because every history is checkered) at least to me, steadfast, honorable, just, friendly, even-handed, and most important calm in all things until forced to act and when you act, act with a determined resolve. Its not easy to do and you fall flat on your face alot but it is something I think Noble to try and attain.

Slavery of course will checker that because it was and still is a vile practice. But make no mistake the Civil War was originally started for the principal of States Rights. The South saw the North as trying to impede on that state of being and it was only when the outcome of government action was no longer in doubt that the South declared its succession or better known to southerners as "The War of Northern Aggression". The war did not turn into Slavery until one of the Master Politicians of the Age, one Abraham Lincoln, made a shrewed and decisive stroke that turned the war into Slavery. The argument was made and the South at that point was doomed to failure because the ground it had stood on was turned to sand for the evil practice which most in the south knew was wrong. But then again what does that have to do with why people say they are Southerners and not Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans or German-Americans well to look there you have to look at what happened at the end of that War, one simple word that brought about a century of distrust and hate, Reconstruction. Reconstruction as Abraham Lincoln saw it was to reunite the two halves of the country through understanding and compassion. When he was assassinated the Congress of the day which consisted of only Northern States was free to do what it wanted and it saw Reconstruction as a time to exact revenge and to break the Southern Spirit in one fail swoop. Loyalty pledges were required, men were required to give up there arms, provisional governors appointed and a occupation ensued. That occupation although ending well before WW1 did not really leave the minds of Old Southerners until much later. But what it created was a very simple mantra of a Us vs. Them attitude, with us being the Yankees (northerners) and them (Southerners). This state really did not take hold in the North but as we can all see today created what alot of people would call "The Solid South". Its not very evident today because most of the generation if not all of the Reconstruction era "Southerners" are dead but it left a very large mark on the South where people just naturally called themselves "Southerners."

Mind you I'm not a prof. but just someone who takes a lively interest in that time and the whole North vs. South argument. But at least those are my experiences.

[depakid]

36. Make no mistake about it?

You definitely are a Southerner- complete with the revivisonist history.

The Civil war was ALL ABOUT SLAVERY AND LITLE ELSE. PERIOD.

Read the freakin' documents. Look at the debates in Congress for the 30 years preceding the war. "States' rights" was simply a code word for slavery and something Southerners use to this day to cover their complicity in what we both agreee was a vile practice...

Not that econonic conditions in cities like New York and later Chicago were all that much better for people of color or poor immigrants.

[barb162]

32. I have seen this before. Long -lined Southerners tend to think of

themselves as "Southern" whereas long-lined Northerners will tend to think of themselves as English, Irish, etc., (whatever country their family came from).

[BiggJawn]

33. American.

Never thought of myself as uniquely "Northern" or "Southern" (I was raised in Indiana. The Mason-Dixon Line gets QUITE blurred here)

My heritage is German, but I'm not fluent in the language, never been there, not likely to EVER go there, but I like the cuisine.

But I like MANY cuisines.

[bloom]

35. I think it relates to

how long your ancestors have been living over here and how much they assimilated.

I was aware of Danish and German heritage growing up - but it wasn't the main thing. A lot of my ancestors moved around and mixed in wherever they were at (all over the country) - following about the 1st generation here.

I think a lot of the German identity was dropped/de-emphasized during WWI.

So I am American.

Sometimes I think it seems nice for groups that maintain a strong identity. I can't really relate, though. I don't really relate to a specific region of the country either - as my parents were from both sides and the middle.

[Freebird12004]

38. I was born a Southerner

I moved to Brooklyn New York way back in 1969 and on to upstate New York in 1987 ... but I'm still a Southerner AND I always will be!

[giasangria]

41. if the "southern culture" keeps mainstreaming

I predict the Southerners will stop identifying as such and the Northerners or Yankees will start self-identifying, I remember reading that only minorities (or perceived minorities) feel the need to label themselves. Or something to that effect. I don't think I am saying it quite right.

[amazona]

43. lots of Scots-Irish will say this

I have roots in Appalachia on one side of the family and many people of Scotch-Irish or Scots-Irish (however you wanna spell it) will just say they are "American" or "Southern" rather than Scots-Irish. Yes, some are also part Cherokee. Many do not know they are Scotch-Irish until they do their "roots."

There is a book called "American Nomads" by Richard Grant, and he has quite a long section about the Scots-Irish influence in America. We just assume we are the true Americans or the true Southerners. Many do not know their heritage because of being uprooted so often...from Scotland to Irish to Appalachia to all over the west. All people would ever say when I was a kid was "We're Scots-Irish but we are NOT <huffy sniff> Irish."

Hard to have a heritage when all you know about it is a negative.