People of science, we need your help.

[TheMightyFavog]

Just look at today's LTTE page in the Green Bay Press-Gazette.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/opinion_18975494.shtml

Lots of letters written by fundies pushing a system designed to keep future generations stupid. Could you help me out here and write some LTTEs? I'm way too busy getting ready for finals to help out.

[DrWeird]

1. "Evolutionists". What a ridiculous term.

That's like saying "gravityist" or "germist."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

2. those who do not believe in the creation story

as proposed in various religious texts? is that better??? :-)

just pulling your chain...

Personally, I thought you wrote 'gravyists' ... and i liked the sound of that cause gravy goes well on just about any thing ...

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread

theProdigal

[parkening]

3. Don't get me started!!!

[TheMightyFavog]

5. I changed the title of the thread, is that better?

End of Line.

[morgan2]

6. Evolutionist

adj : of or relating to evolution
n : one who values thought over dogma; sane

[BlueEyedSon]

7. Hey, being a GRAVITYIST, I resent that!

[mumon]

4. My LTE:

Jim Kraft's letter ("Evolutionists stifling science") illustrates the woeful state of ignorance about science in the United States today.

When Kraft claims that "there are no detectable laws, principles or channels for developing information out of chaos without a pre-existing intelligence," it is clear that Kraft has no idea what "information" means to scientists.

To a scientist, "information" is purely a property associated with events that happen at random. This has made it a very useful as a means to study communication and recording systms. In fact, without randomness ("chaos" means something else entirely to scientists) there is no information.



I mentioned this subject on my blog today...

[BlueEyedSon]

8. WTF is this guy talking about????

"Everything in the universe is made up of three components — matter, energy and information."

Dont even get me started on e=Mc2, quarks, gluons and strings! Maybe he meant Earth, Air, Fire & Water!

[RUDUing2]

9. My response is always:

I always have a hard time understanding people who claim to be christians wanting to limit God. I am talking specifically about the need to place limitations on what God is capable of doing and how He is capable of creating.

If you are a real christian then you believe that with God all things are possible...ALL, which includes by definition Evolution. A real christian who believes that with God all things are possible, is not threatened by the idea of evolution, because they realize that nothing about evolution contradicts God or the Bible, it simply offers an explanation.

On the other hand, if you feel the need to place limitations on God, then I can understand why you would want to stop evolution from being taught in school.

Thankfully the majority of christians understand that you should not place limits on God and that God is not threatened by science. Hopefully the ones who live in fear will someday be able to do the same.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. Exactly, it has nothing to do with God (and his/her capabilities).

And everything to do with dogma and a power structure of a specific text/church hierarchy.

Unfortunately, it massacres science and free inquiry as a side effect.....

[RUDUing2]

11. only way to fight it is to speak in language they understand...

if you try to use science, logic etc..they tune you out...you have to word your case in a way that makes their faith look weak...that has at least the potential to make them defensive instead of being able to bask in their holier-then-thouness...

[BlueEyedSon]

12. 8^)

[Tansy_Gold]

18. Letter from God to Kansas Board of Education

back in the late 90s when they were banning the teaching of evolution --



Memo to: The members of the Kansas Board of Education

From: God

Re: Your decision to eliminate the teaching of evolution as science.

Thank you for your support. Much obliged.

Now, go forth and multiply. Beget many children. And yea, your children shall beget children. And their children shall beget children, and their children's children after them. And in time the genes that have made you such pinheads will be eliminated through natural selection. Because that is how it works.

Listen, I love all my creatures equally, and gave each his own special qualities to help him on Earth. The horse I gave great strength. The antelope I gave great grace and speed. The dung beetle I gave great stupidity, so he doesn't realize he is a dung beetle. Man I gave a brain.

Use it, okay?

I admit I am not perfect. I've made errors. (Armpit hair--what was I thinking?) But do you Kansans seriously believe that I dropped half-a-billion-year-old trilobite skeletons all over my great green Earth by mistake? What, I had a few lying around from some previous creation in the Andromeda galaxy, and they fell through a hole in my pocket?

You were supposed to find them. And once you found them, you were supposed to draw the appropriate, intelligent conclusions. That's what I made you for. To think.

The folks who wrote the Bible were smart and good people. Mostly, they got it right. But there were glitches. Imprecisions. For one thing, they said that Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel, and then Cain begat Enoch. How was that supposed to have happened?

They left out Tiffany entirely!

Well, they also were a little off on certain elements of timing and sequence. So what?

You guys were supposed to figure it all out for yourselves, anyway. When you stumble over the truth, you are not supposed to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and proceed on as though nothing had happened. If you find a dinosaur's toe, you're not supposed to look for reasons to call it a croissant. You're not big, drooling idiots. For that, I made dogs.

Why do you think there are no fossilized human toes dating from a hundred million years ago? Think about it. It's okay if you think. In fact, I prefer it. That's why I like Charlie Darwin. He was always a thinker. Still is. He and I chat frequently.

I know a lot of people figure that if man evolved from other organisms, it means I don't exist. I have to admit this is a reasonable assumption and a valid line of thought. I am in favor of thought. I encourage you to pursue this concept with an open mind, and see where it leads you.

That's all I have to say right now, except that I'm really cheesed off at laugh tracks on sitcoms, and the NRA, and people who make simple declarative sentences sound like questions?

Oh, wait. There's one more thing.

Did you read in the newspapers yesterday how scientists in Australia dug up some rocks and found fossilized remains of life dating back further than ever before? Primitive, multicelled animals on Earth nearly 3 billion years ago, when the planet was nothing but roiling muck and ice and fire. And inside those cells was . . . DNA. Incredibly complex strands of chemicals, laced together in a scheme so sophisticated no one yet understands exactly how it works.

I wonder who could have thought of something like that, back then.

Just something to gnaw on.

[seaj11]

28. I love that. Thanks. n/t

[Scout]

25. Excellent!

may I copy and use? this is absolutely great, I know just the person to use it with. (If it's ok with you.)

[RUDUing2]

27. go ahead...hopefully it will change the persons mind...or at least open it

a crack and make them start to think...

[trotsky]

29. The problem with that response

is that these people are usually biblical literalists. Even if you could convince them that evolution is real, it would cause problems in that it destroys the concept of "original sin," since if evolution is true, then Adam & Eve didn't exist, and that story didn't happen.

[indigobusiness]

13. If they believe this, they should be punished... Check this out.

Unbelievable! To say the least.

Fellowship Baptist Creation Science Fair 2001

Article by Dr. Richard Paley & FBCSF Staff
---

Students presented their projects in the Fellowship Baptist Church auditorium.

As a Creation Scientist, one of my greatest duties that I take great pleasure in is introducing the works of the Lord to the young generation. The sparkle of wonderment that fills their eyes in knowing the creative power of God fills my heart with the Lord's divine Love. It however saddens me greatly that the proponents of Evolutionism have corrupted this true purpose of science and are instead using it as a propaganda tool to spread Secularism. But what is education for if not to fight against ignorance such as that? Our children are the future face of Science and we must teach them to recognize the truth of the Word of the Lord so as to break the cycle of Evolutionism dogma that is paralyzing scientific development and making higher education a dumping ground for the excesses of materialistic philosophies.

Elementary School Level

Cassidy Turnbull and her uncle, Steve, who is not a monkey according to Cassidy's research. 1st Place: "My Uncle Is A Man Named Steve (Not A Monkey)"



Cassidy Turnbull (grade 5) presented her uncle, Steve. She also showed photographs of monkeys and invited fairgoers to note the differences between her uncle and the monkeys. She tried to feed her uncle bananas, but he declined to eat them. Cassidy has conclusively shown that her uncle is no monkey.

Middle School Level



Patricia Lewis displays her jar of non-living material, still non-living after three weeks.

1st Place: "Life Doesn't Come From Non-Life"

Patricia Lewis (grade 8) did an experiment to see if life can evolve from non-life. Patricia placed all the non-living ingredients of life - carbon (a charcoal briquet), purified water, and assorted minerals (a multi-vitamin) - into a sealed glass jar. The jar was left undisturbed, being exposed only to sunlight, for three weeks. (Patricia also prayed to God not to do anything miraculous during the course of the experiment, so as not to disqualify the findings.) No life evolved. This shows that life cannot come from non-life through natural processes.

snip

Honorable Mention:
"Geocentrism: Politically Incorrect" - Richard Cody (grade 9)
"Young Earth, Old Lies" - Melvin Knuth & Glenna Reher (grade 11)
"Thermodynamics Of Hell Fire" - Tom Williamson (grade 12)

---
(Much, much more.)

http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html


Speak in Tongues in 5 Days or Your Money Back! You'll be able to make up things that even you can't understand in a hot-footed hillbilly trance.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1204/tongues.html

[Qanisqineq]

14. that site is satire n/t

[indigobusiness]

17. The 2nd link is. The first story is legit.

You didn't check it out. You wouldn't believe it.

I threw in the Landover Baptist story as counterpoint. Because the first site is up in arms about it.

[Qanisqineq]

19. The first one has been debunked before here on DU n/t

[indigobusiness]

21. OK...My bad...I didn't really dig into it.

It seemed too preposterous to be true. But the way they lit into Landover Baptist made me think it might be legit. (it's probably put together by the Landover brain trust)

Phew, that's relief.

Thanks.


"Diamond" Jack Holgroth is a Game Theoretician formerly of the Department of Defense and currently teaching at Fellowship University. He is also a member of the National Association of Christian Game Theoreticians and a certified Vexillologist.
more...
http://objective.jesussave.us/members.html#JHOLGROTH

[Qanisqineq]

24. I was convinced it was true

I even sent out emails with links to the site to my friends saying, OMG! Look at this! Then I read a number of threads here on DU that had links to sites that debunked it. I wish I could remember what to search for that would bring up those threads.

:hi:

[AllegroRondo]

15. Creation Scientist = Oxymoron

Science takes known facts about how the universe works and uses them to find rules for why things happen.

Creationists take a pre-supposed conclusion and warp facts to support it.

[indigobusiness]

22. That style of reasoning is found all over...

these days.

It has become a huge problem in America.

[Johonny]

16. here you go

I find the authors statement more than a little odd

“The 11-year-old Intelligent Design movement was started by a group of scientists well respected in their various fields. All were products of evolution-based education, taught as “fact” right up through their doctorates. But with the discovery of incredibly complex information contained in the DNA molecule and all molecular components, they realized there was absolutely no evolutionary explanation for that information.”

Given that DNA was discovered in 1959. One wonders if these “respected” scientist were a little slow in their evaluation of the current literature. What were they doing for 34 years? The funniest thing is how uncomplex the information stored in DNA is. Stored in simple repeats of 4 different bases. Also the current news of the last 11 years is how few genes are encoded in human DNA (far lower than predicted), not the discovery of how many. The authors remarks show a deep misunderstanding of the field and suggest their opinion on the state of this scientific field does not warrant merit. Oddly enough the discovery of some type of biological encoding was predicted by Darwin as necessary for his evolutionary theory. It’s discover (~100 years later) only reinforces once again how predictive Darwinian evolution is. The author also fails to explain in anyway how Darwinian evolution has stifled current biological science. Certainly the massive advances in the field of biology in the last 100 years is not a record of a stifled field. Perhaps they were mistaking it with creationist field that is still using the same refuted arguments for the last 100+ years.

[sans qualia]

20. 0_o ... erm...

"This, in spite of the fact there are no detectable laws, principles or channels for developing information out of chaos without a pre-existing intelligence..."

Um, dude, that's what evolution is. If you're gonna deny readily observable phenomena, then you're just not worth arguing with. "Existence is unequivocal proof of possibility" and all that.

[IHeart1993]

23. If anything, we should be teaching more science.

And that LTTE proves it. Not to mention offending all biologists, ercologists, paleontologists, microbiologists, genetists, etc by lumping them together as "Evolutionists."

[atommom]

26. The creepy thing is that the ID people are using language that

can make less-educated people think that their way is more "scientific." You can see this in Kansas right now, where members of the BOE who favor ID have said they propose revisions in the science education standards that “encourage the teaching of origins science consistent with the nature of scientific inquiry.” Creationism requires the rejection of scientific inquiry, but members of the public who aren't ardent gravityists might not realize that. :shrug:

The creationists have gotten subtler and craftier in the last few years, but they are still very determined. We still need to keep our eyes on them.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/10402384.htm