How do all these European Socialists have so much money?

[InvisibleBallots]

I thought socialism was bad? I've been in Belgium, Netherlands, and western Germany now and all I see everywhere is healthy looking white people driving around in expensive cars, riding high-tech transit, wearing fashionable clothing and buying fancy coffee for 5 Euros each!

In Italy last week, they had a strike - not for anything specific, just on "general principle" - just to remind the government and the corporations that they could. Instead of complaining about Walmart destroying their small towns, they are bargaining to get a second month of vacation ever year.

I thought Socialism made people poor? I think the Republicans have been lying to me! If this is Socialism, call me a Socialist.

[pandorasox]

1. Look at it this way

Once the United States has another 500 years of history under its belt, we can look forward to an enlightened lifestyle too.

[Anakin Skywalker]

3. Good One!

The US looks like an insolent teenager compared to many European countries. :) And of course, this image is not helped by the boorish behaviors of so many thuggish Freeper-Americans with their pigheadedness.

[justinsb]

10. Canada was officially created in 1867

and according to the UN ranks above the US in health care, infrastructure, education and overall 'quality of life' amoung other things.

[StClone]

2. You just saw the poor people.

The poor Corporations are laying in gutters begging for loose change.

[phantom power]

4. Socialism might prevent you from becoming filthy rich, but it

tends to also prevent people from becoming poor. There's a fancy European word for it, they call it "moderation"...

[InvisibleBallots]

8. there seem to be a lot of filthy rich people here too

I've seen dozens of limos - lots of rich people evidentally. But the regular people seem to have it pretty nice as well. I just met a house painter who's on his month long vacation - the winter one, not the summer one :eyes:

[punpirate]

5. For one thing...

... their governments don't spend half a trillion dollars a year on defense and global war....

[InvisibleBallots]

22. well, yes

there is that

[Inland]

6. They are rich in different things

We get to drive expensive cars down potholed streets past failing public schools, paraphrasing one economist.

Ever see the size of a European residence? Homeownership is low. Air conditioning is low.

Some things become ridiculously expensive. I tried to buy a pair of pants in Greece. It was twice as expensive as the US.

And some European cities are grim, grim places. Paris suburbs, some mediterranean port towns, etc.

[Stella_Artois]

12. Not sure if you can blame some of those things on their governments

Houses tend to be smaller because there is less land to build them on, and air conditioning is less useful in much of the European countries, the northern ones certainly.

[Inland]

14. I wasn't blaming the governments all in all

But choices are made. For example, most european governments work hard to fight sprawl and maintain agricultural communities: there isn't much room to build because cities are meant to be compact. Air conditioning is much less useful because everyone is able to take August off.

I think its just different choices. Me, I appreciate the choices for compact cities with public areas and public transportation over the sprawl that goes on forever. I DON'T appreciate the VAT that makes every consumer item a trial.

[sweetheart]

20. different things, yes

In this part of europe, blue jeans are cheap, I got several pairs
at tesco for 10 pound or less. So are fleeces, 15 pound, 20 pound.

Petrol is very expensive, over 5 dollars per gallon. Minor incidence
of violence, mostly related to drink at the town pubs. I don't need
air con, as the house (small) is made of solid stone, and the stone
keeps it cool in the summer and holds heat well in the winter.

I don't need a 4000 square foot house. I got 1 ass, and it can only
sit in 1 room at a time. I do agree that many of the towns are
crowded, but then again, brooklyn and east los angeles can be a bit
grim as well.

Entrepreneurship is indeed less, largely because the public sector
provides such long term good jobs that it takes many of the brightest
folks away from private industry. This public sector taking all the
oxygen can be unhealthy, IMO, but taken in an overall picture, i
can't help but admire social democracy.

Frankly, british taxes seem less, as they are levied differently.
Council tax, is paid per dwelling, by the tenant (not the owner
like property tax) as each tenant loads garbage collection, water
and local services. Income tax, is just national, and not state and
city as well, which is a pleasant relief, and there is no need to
file a tax return, as the tax is deducted exactly at the paycheque,
with no refunds and silly make-work IRS stuff.

[naryaquid]

7. ..I believe you're onto something, InvisibleB!..

..Now if we could just talk to the Repukes!:7

[McKenzie]

9. "Old European" calling

I don't mind my taxes being used for the benefit of my community. I don't mind taxes being levied to help those less fortunate than me (I'm nearly in the top income-tax bracket) I support tolerance of people whose sexuality is different to mine. I don't mind a mixed economy. I am happy to live in a society that tries to balance individual freedoms with compassion and care. I like the fact that I don't live in a dog-eat-dog society.

I am an Old European and glad to be one.

(/rant-over)

[CHIMO]

11. European beacon of light

"These are tumultuous times. Much of the world is going dark, leaving many human beings without clear direction. The European Dream is a beacon of light in a troubled world. It beckons us to a new age of inclusivity, diversity, quality of life, sustainability, universal human rights, the rights of nature, and peace on earth. We Americans used to say that the American Dream is worth dying for. The new European Dream is worth living for" - Jeremy Rifkin.

Rifkin: "Let me say that I grew up on the American Dream and it was robust. There was a reality to that dream and it was the gold standard for the whole world for 200 years."

"The dream basically says that America is a tough country but it's a land of opportunity and if you get a good education and work hard and are diligent you can become a success in life. Up until the 1960s people were able to experience the American Dream, immigrants came to our shores and they were able to move on up."

"Unfortunately in the last 40 years the dream has completely unravelled. Today the United States ranks 24th among industrial nations in income disparity - the gap between the very rich at the top and the multitudes of working poor at the bottom - only Mexico and Russia rank lower in income distribution."

http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/features/amsterdamforum/af041211

[bettyellen]

13. yeah, they have less stuff and less space for it than typical americans..

and i can't argue with that. i met a lot of people with decent jobs living in tiny places and having a lot less things, but better quality things.
the only complaint i had ever heard is that it's harder to be as upwardly mobile or entrepenurial there- and that people are more class concious than they are in the states. but i think they were comparing themselves to the mythology of america, and not the reality.
yeah,
they got it going on!

[Union Thug]

15. Socialism helps guarantee equal access.

Especially as regards education and training.

You can call me a Socialist because I AM a Socialist. I believe in democratic socialism, I believe that so long as human beings needlessly suffer, there should be no elite, no class priv.

And yes, I am very class conscious and very resentful (to be kind) of the rich. We produce the wealth, they enjoy it.

[InvisibleBallots]

18. by the way, just as an aside

I *love* your handle! :yourock:

[Union Thug]

21. thx!

[stevedeshazer]

16. Right. Socialism bad. Anarchy good.

<snip>

United Nations: Nordic Countries Best Place to Live in the World
The Nordic countries have the best standard of living in the world, as per the Human Development Report published by the United Nations

Best Standard of Living in the World

The Nordic countries are overall the best countries to live in the world, according to the Human Development Report which is published annually by the United Nations. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland figure among the top countries on the UN index because of their high levels of education, democracy, income and public health.

The Human Development Report (HDR) is an annual independent study commissioned by the United Nations Development Programme and published into more than a dozen languages. The HDR measures the wealth of nations by the standard of living of their population and considers several indexes related to life expectancy, education, economy and environment.

Economists, philosophers and political leaders have long emphasised human wellbeing as the sole purpose of economic development. A successful community is not that which has one wealthy member and nine living in poverty, but that one where all members of the community have succeeded in achieving a high standard of living. The HDR measures whether the national income of a nation is creating an environment for its people to enjoy a life with good health services, political freedoms, security against crime, greater access to education and a satisfying leisure time.

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote50/

[jesusq]

17. Most Americans think Socialism and Communism are the same thing

I had a conversation with a French woman from the Loire Valley. She couldn't believe I would come all the way to France and only stay 10 days. When I told her that I had to get back to work, she said, "You poor Americans, you work so hard to have nice things, that you don't know how to live." I didn't bother to tell her that her things were actually much nicer than mine, I got docked $100 a week for health insurance (which I lost when I got laid off). Americans only get time off when they lose their jobs. Europeans get 6-8 weeks off each year, paid and call it HOLIDAY.

That's socialism, and if Americans knew what it really was, they would probably demand it.

[Union Thug]

19. Most people think Soviet "Communism" was Communism

and some think Hitler was a "communist" (believe me, I once had that argument with a freeeeeeper).

Anyone who has ever read Marx knows better. Totalitarian State Capitalism does not a Communist society make. That is not to say that there weren't many good things about Soviet Russia. Just ask my double degreed wife (two masters) who was educated for free under soviet rule, and whose childcare was free, and who was guaranteed a years of pay to take care of her child when he was born, oh and the free medical care.

She is sick about what has happened to her country and wishes that they would have went with a Scandinavian socialist model rather than the gangster capitalism that prevails there now.

edit...btw.. she didn't come to the US to escape "communist oppression"...she didn't come here until AFTER the SU fell and the goodness of Capitalist society had impovershed them to degrees not known under communism. She says, yea, now there are a lot of products available there, but no one but the "New Russians" (read russian mafia, etc) can afford any of it.