I watched the debate...please explain what's so great about Dean

[FDRLincoln]

I watched the debate last night with an open mind, still being undecided on who to support.

Dean supporters, I've tried to like this guy, but I just don't see it. I didn't think he did a good job in the Russert Interview (which admittedly was more of an ambush). And I didn't think he did a particularly good job last night. What's with the "Latin America is the most important hemisphere in American history" statement? That sounds like something Dubya would say. . .I would think Europe was a little more important.

Please understand that I do NOT have a dog in this fight yet...but I really really don't see what the attraction is with Dean. He attacks Bush...that's great, I hate Bush and I want to see him attacked. But I thought Gephardt, Kerry, Graham, Edwards, and Moseley Braun all did a more effective job of attacking Bush last night than Dean did, Geph especially. In fact, I thought the only one who did worse than Dean was Lieberman, who is insufferable.

Please, PLEASE explain to me what you see in Dean. I'm not bashing, I'm trying to understand, because I'm trying to figure out who to send my money to.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

1. I like Dean ( I like everyone except Holy Joe)

but he stank last night, I have to agree. But, it could have been a bad night....

[w4rma]

2. Here is audio of Dean speaking to either a meetup or a rally

http://www.wordsandgraphics.com/dean080703-audio.mov

He sounds much differently at rallies and speeches than in interviews and at this most recent debate.

Also, note that Dean's schedule has been extremely packed and it has to be tiring.

Also, while I noticed that he was pretty much saying the same things he says at rallies and speeches he was using a less passionate tone. The other Democrats on stage were using their most passionate tones.

[WilliamPitt]

5. It is only September

The words "I'm tired" should never, ever pass a candidate's lips, nor should that be an excuse for anything. Remember Bill Clinton in the NH primary 11 years ago. He went out in the cold while sick and shook hands with pretty much every person in Manchester, and it wound up carrying him to a very strong finish. That's not the exception, but must be the rule.

[w4rma]

jos, in this post, has a good explanation, IMHO

6. From what I saw
Dean was pursuing a classic frontrunner strategy: make no mistakes. Plus he was trying hard to shed the "testy" label that the punditocracy has placed on him. I think this was a good strategy.

Too much emphasis is placed on debate performance anyway.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=33667#33682

[Woodstock]

63. He handled the Lieberman attack very well

He wasn't given a chance to respond to the Kucinich attack, but he didn't let it get to him.

[unfrigginreal]

24. Gee Whiz, Will...

Do you have a Frank Capra candidate for us this time around? Oh Happy Days!

Get real, your post suggests that one of the candidates actually used the phrase "I'm tired". Based on the posts in this thread prior to yours it's easy to assume that you are referring to Dean.

None of the candidates has said "I'm tired". So your post is irrelevent!

[WilliamPitt]

32. Reading is Fundamental

Post #2: "Also, note that Dean's schedule has been extremely packed and it has to be tiring."

My reply to said post: "The words "I'm tired" should never, ever pass a candidate's lips, nor should that be an excuse for anything."

Thanks for playing.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[WilliamPitt]

38. Again

I was addressing the comments made by the poster.

Reading is fundamental.

[unfrigginreal]

42. C'mon Will...we're all buddies here...and should be honest with each other

Here's the post that led to you're "I'm tired" statement.

Also, note that Dean's schedule has been extremely packed and it has to be tiring.

Where did "I'm tired" come from? How is it that you thought it appropriate to suggest that "a" candidate was using this excuse?

Admittedly, I probably don't read on the same level that you do...but it seems to me that you may not comprehend on the same level as the rest of us.

[WilliamPitt]

58. "it has to be tiring."

were the words used, the words I was responding to. Dean didn't say this, the poster did. That's three times this incredibly simple issue has been explained to you.

[Eloriel]

68. And it's three times you've tried to evade it

The poster has a point, and you know it. Trying to pass a DUer's observation or speculation off as a comment from either a candidate or the campaign -- and then your defending it -- looks like poor reading comprehension on your part.

The thing is, Will, you're a writer, and WE know that YOU know better than that.

Eloriel

[blm]

69. HAHAHAHA.....that's rich.

The poor guy was just referencing what zidzi said. His reply was to HER excuse for Dean. He was merely saying that no politician can afford to BE tired or ACT tired.

Sheesh.... the thinnest skins and shortest fuses. Kneejerk reactionaries ready to jump on any PERCEIVED transgression against Bush...oops...I meant Dean.

[Cha]

80. How do you know the poster was referencing what I said!?

And that's beside the Point anyway.. and you Should know better, too!


And all you're doing is some more of your tired name calling against Dean and his supporters...any time you see a chance to say something snide you're Jumping on it ...skin being so transparent and the knee? Well ..I detect a wee bit of a jerk there, too!

[blm]

100. Because I can comprehend.

And I am shocked at the big fuss that is being made over this.

Theater of the Absurd.

[caledesi]

102. Zid - you go girl!

[WilliamPitt]

71. But I was ADDRESSING the poster

That makes four times.

[blm]

47. Comprehension is Fundamental.

Will's statement is valid.

[unfrigginreal]

51. It depends a great deal on the writing...

If you write that the sky is purple, I might believe it if I was blind. Similarly if you write a suggestion that a candidate "is tired" I might believe it if I wasn't politically active and paying attention. Will pulled a stunt tonight that has been reserved for the media whores. He got his message out regardless of the facts.

[WilliamPitt]

56. WTF are you talking about?

[blm]

65. Let us know when the shuttle lands.

.

[w4rma]

95. The words "I'm tired" should never…be an excuse for anything

One of the possibilities (among 1 or 2 others) that I said in my previous two posts was:
Also, note that Dean's schedule has been extremely packed and it has to be tiring.

[indigo32]

44. Actually Will

I've read that Dean has an amazing amount of energy. I'm not sure what was with the low key performance he gave last night...but I doubt he's saying "I'm tired"

[ModerateMiddle]

72. I don't think he was tired either

cuz he had a ton of energy after the debate, from all reports.

I think he was subdued because he's trying to address the meme that his anger won't sell nationally.

I think he needs practice at "subdued" though.

[chimpymustgo]

85. Dean is always bad at these debates and interviews.

Situations he cannot control. Television. Last night was no exception.

[Woodstock]

62. Dean didn't make the excuse

Although Dean has had an unusually gruelling schedule of late, I don't think that affected his performance. He's always a bit formal during these debates. Even so, I thought he did a good job. Nobody particularly stood out, I would pick Carol Mosley Braun if I had to pick someone, although I preferred Dean's content to hers. During speeches and interacting with people and crowds, Dean is really in his element. It would be good for him if he could capture some of that magic during debates.

[opstachuck]

3. I'll agree...

It wasn't his best moment. I honestly think he's on a learning curve with this. I've heard him in hour-long interviews with npr and The nation (links below) where he has a chance to fully explain his answers and he does so very effectively and very eloquently. Perhaps he's nervous with the time limit because he doesn't have a chance to fully explain himself. He's a bright guy and maybe the format's a little stifling - I don't know. I'm thinking he'll get better as this goes along. we'll see.

so these are the interviews that really got me excited about Dean. One is from late last year and the other is from early on this year. His most polished public appearances I've heard or seen...

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2002/07/20020703_a_main.asp
http://archive.webactive.com/radionation/rn20030312.html

[Bake]

He'd better make it a short curve then.

Nobody in politics can afford very many "off nights."

Bake

[ibegurpard]

4. It's the primary

You should support who comes closest to matching your values. Send your money to that person.
If you want to find out more about Dean visit here:
www.deanforamerica.com
www.blogforamerica.com

[FDRLincoln]

12. closest in views

If I went closest in views it would probably be Wes Clark, but I need to know more about his views to be sure. After that it would probably be Kerry, but I'm concerned about how lackluster his campaign has been.

My views:
1) taking out Saddam was a good idea in the abstract, but the administration has completely botched the whole thing (as I knew they would) and did this the wrong way at the wrong time with too much arrogance and hubris. I'm closer to Zinni and Clark on this than most DUers, and am willing to cut guys like Kerry some slack for voting for the resolution.

2) I personally would not repeal the middle class portion of the Bush tax cut. Instead, I would increase taxes sharply on the top 2% of wageearners, extend FICA in some way like Kerry has mentioned, and repeal the dividend and estate tax cuts. Basically I think the winning position here is to maintain the (small) portion of the Bush tax cut that helped the middle class, while repealing the part of the Bush tax cut that helped the rich.

3) There's got to be some form of universal health coverage, but I'm still trying to figure out how to do this.

4) We need someone who'll be able to rebuild bridges with our allies and find a way to extract ourselves from the Iraq mess. Thus, someone with foreign policy experience and gravitas will be needed in my view.

5) I'm in favor of gay rights and gay marraige.

6) I'm an environmentalist.

7) I supported NAFTA, but I was against GATT and MFN for China. Basically I think our economy could sustain free trade with Mexico and it was in our best interest to do so, but it was a mistake to do this with China and India, where the prevailing wage was just too low. Also, I think cozying up to the Chinese, whose Communist regime is far more brutal than Castro, is just crazy. We'll regret shipping all our factories over there if we ever get into a tussle over Taiwan.

So, here I am....hawkish compared to most DUers, pro-gay, pro-environment, pro-NAFTA, anti-free trade with China, anti-Bush-tax cuts for rich, pro-tax cut for middle class, pro-health care reform, pro-getting rid of Saddam-but-anti-stupid dumbass way Bush did it.

[ModerateMiddle]

73. Shameless promotion here :D

I think you should check out Kerry's position on things (his website, johnkerry.com has an extensive review of his positions on many issues), and also take a look at the ads folks are running.

The new Kerry TV ads are very stimulating. Energetic.

[FDRLincoln]

92. i like Kerry

I like Kerry and six months ago he was my guy. But his campaign so far has been less than impressive. I'll probably end up back in his column if Clark doesn't get in, but I wanted to give the others a chance to convince me.

[West Coast Democrat]

6. Usually Al Sharpton is the crowd pleaser

but last night, I thought Dick Gephardt was pretty strong. He seems to have a theme: "Bush is a miserable failure".

[Woodstock]

64. Oh, boy, did I love it when he said that

:)

There was a real Bush bashing fest going on until LIEberman broke the momentum and started tearing at Dean's throat.

[TLM]

7. I think what he meant to say was that

Latin America is an important part of the american hemisphere... likely he hit the time limit and got tripped up trying to end quickly.

[Terwilliger]

10. so, Dean can't speak for himself?

maybe he should get out of politics

[Cha]

81. No! We won't let him ...it's too late! I love how the vultures are

circling when there's no blood!

[Julien Sorel]

49. Likely, he was speaking in New Mexico.

Roughly 40% of the population there is Hispanic.

[Name removed]

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[West Coast Democrat]

9. You're still here?

You still haven't responded to my response on the other thread, Mr. French Basher.

[Donna Zen]

88. Mine either!

n/t

[w4rma]

11. Davis's hands were tied by Bush's FTC (I think that's the correct …

… regulation committee)

Anyway, Davis tried to get the prices capped on Enron and other Texas based energy providers. Bush's FTC stonewalled Davis and let Enron price gouge California.

Davis was actually one of the most effective governors in stopping Enron. And, IMHO, Bush is trying to take revenge on Davis through this recall that was paid for by extremely wealthy Republicans.

[Eloriel]

70. FERC n/t

.

[ibegurpard]

13. Us Dems?

Are you a Democrat or progressive independent? If not, may I ask why you are wasting your time on this board?

[West Coast Democrat]

16. He's upset about Bush-bashers

He was complaining in another one of the threads about how he's tired of "Us Dems" bashing the "president" all the time.

[Atlant]

17. I find the "Alert" button handy in such crcumstances. (NT)

[West Coast Democrat]

18. I tried that 10 minutes ago!

but he's still here.

[edzontar]

20. I just pressed "Alert" on this guy too...

I think he'll be gone soon.

Meanwhile, if you can still read this: Bush is a Turd!!!!!

Get out of here, Rushbot boy!!!!!

[West Coast Democrat]

31. Alert button seems not to be working

...but no matter. This guy doesn't seem to have any good points nor decent debate skills.

[0rganism]

19. California is in a crisis because of Enron, no question about it

Is Davis partly to blame? Sure, but I don't think republicans are going to get much mileage from pissing and moaning about his role in it. Go ahead and try, though.

[tkmorris]

21. Amazing

You actually put "French bashing" in your profile as a hobby? Umm, ok Mate, whatever you say :)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[West Coast Democrat]

48. "Bringing the terrorist threat to a head?"

Now that's about the silliest argument I've heard yet. We're only creating civil unrest and civil war in the Middle East. We're creating more terrorists and luring them into Iraq from other countries. Osama is still at large, and Afghanistan is back in chaos.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

50. You really are ill-informed

Iraq had nothing to do with 3,000 Americans being killed. Iraq had no connection to Al Qaida. So said our own CIA, the Mossad, MI5, and dozens of other intelligence agencies worldwide.

Saddam was a bad guy, no question. He posed NO THREAT to the US, so said the UN Weapons Inspectors, who found NO EVIDENCE of WMDs. He was terrible to his own people, but no worse than dozens of other dictatorships in the world, many of whom we support (look at Amnesty International reports on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia). And North Korea has weapons that can actually hit the Western US.


In summary:
* No WMDs
* Burgeoning civil war
* Quagmire
* Hundreds of Americans killed since Mission Accomplished, thousands injured and flooding military hospitals, which, thanks to Republican budget cuts, are understaffed and underfunded.

You regurgitate Neo-Con talking points, rather than provide substance.

[West Coast Democrat]

52. Now Freepers are trying to argue that increased violence in Iraq...

was part of the plan all along! It's too ridiculous hearing them try to explain that it's best to get all of the violence out now (bring it to a head), as if that will cause the violence to somehow decrease after a while and make things better eventually. Where's the logic in that?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

54. Freepers have no logic, XanthaS

they can only comprehend talking points dictated to them by the Limbaughs of the world. For our boys and girls over in Iraq-and Afghanistan-it is a living hell.

Their theory about 'violence coming to a head' is not borne out by the history of the region. Just look at Lebanon and Israel, where the violence has been ongoing for decades. We have destroyed their infrastructure and created a whole new generation of young terrorists. Prior to this, the Iraqis didn't hate the US. Now, they are united with other terrorists in their jihad against America. Thanks, Mr. Bush.

[West Coast Democrat]

61. Where are all the Moderators today?

Are freepers usually allowed to hand around this long?

[caledesi]

55. Yeah, they ran from "draining the swamp" to the "magnet" theory...

So utterly pathetic.

Where are the WMDs? NOT WMD programs...WMDs!
Why did * lie in his SOTU address?
Where is OBL?
Why aren't al Qaeda "on the run" anymore?
Why is the Taliban back?

*'s foreign policy is a total debacle and he will pay for it when we take our country back in '05.

[ModerateMiddle]

94. ohhhh, oh oh, have you heard the LATEST?

not WMD, not WMD *programs*, but "it's clear that Saddam WANTED to have WMD programs.

Oy.

[caledesi]

101. No f*cking way. This is unreal. Now they are using "wanted"

They are so pathetic.

[StandWatie]

53. ah "flypaper"

I finally meet someone dumb enough to believe that bullshit. You have to be extraordinarily dumb to believe there are a finite number of "jihadists" or that every single one of them will go to Iraq. For how well your strategy works I suggest you check out Chechnya where Russia is apparently trying to suck in the "Jihadists" and has been long before Iraq and just how well it's worked out for them.

[Ellen Forradalom]

66. The terrorist threat is not a zit

Jihadists in the US and jihadists in Iraq are not mutually exclusive.

[gemini_liberal]

67. silly me!

I don't think we're losing the fight in Iraq.

Oh yeah, that's right, America is indeed winning its fight to set up the world's first anarchist nation! LOL!

[0rganism]

75. Congratulations! First Iraq-acne analogy I've ever seen in print

And the operations in Afghanistan would be some sort of herpes thing, making the Columbian intervention similar to draining a pilinoidal cyst...

I hope your boy has something more impressive going for the debates next year, or he's going to be a bigger joke than he already is.

[JNelson6563]

23. California?

haha Yeah that was all the Democrats.

Here Johnny, read this, if you can sound out all the words:

http://www.yuricareport.com/PoliticalAnalysis/FraudinWhiteHouse.htm

Here's a clip:

This story begins with the California energy crisis, which started in 2000 and continued through the early months of 2001, when electricity prices spiked to their highest levels. Prices went from $12 per megawatt hour in 1998 to $200 in December 2000 to $250 in January 2001, and at times a megawatt cost $1,000.

One event occurred earlier. On July 13, 1998, employees of one of the two power-marketing centers in California watched incredulously as the wholesale price of $1 a megawatt hour spiked to $9,999, stayed at that price for four hours, then dropped to a penny. Someone was testing the system to find the limits of market exploitation. This incident was the earliest indication that the people and the state could become victims of fraud. The Sacramento Bee broke the story three years later, on May 6, 2001.

Today, Californians are still paying the costs of the debacle while according to state officials the power companies who manipulated the energy markets reaped more than $7.5 billion in unfair profits.

During those early months of the Bush administration, and even during the prior transition period, Dick Cheney was deeply involved in gathering information for a national energy policy. The intelligence he gathered would provide justification for a war against Iraq but would also place White House footprints all over a fraud scam. This is how it all happened.

For a healthy dose of reality, read it.

Julie

[Name removed]

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[Cha]

82. What's not to "criticize"!

Go out and get a CLUE!

[Beacho]

14. Didn't watch the debate eh?

"I didn't watch the debate but did any of the candidates do anything beside be critical?"


What did you do, read the Cliff Notes from Newsmax? I suggest that not only should you get a tighter grip on your wallet if Bush is elected, but also you should find yourself a nice cardboard box and prepare to move in.

[Name removed]

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[w4rma]

26. All the candidates both attacked Bush* and offered alternative

policy proposals to everything they attacked Bush* on.

That is my observation.

[Name removed]

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[West Coast Democrat]

39. You're Trying To Sell TRICKLE DOWN Economics here?

Remember the 80s?!

BTW, haven't you noticed that the US spends more of a percentage of its NNP on health care than any other nation, yet it still has millions of uninsured?

[Name removed]

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[West Coast Democrat]

45. Those who are unisured receive the most expensive....

treatments. They are usually forced to seek Emergency care, whereas if they'd received regular treatment and check-ups all along, many health problems could have been prevented. And yes, all insured folks have to pay for the uninsured. We have to pay for the most expensive treatment. Nobody but the insurance companies win.

[OKNancy]

76. Why do people always say this?

That the insured pay for the uninsured?
I'm uninsured and I pay out of my own pocket. It may not be in a lump sum ( most every one will work with you). When my insurance went up to $800.00 per month, I figured I'd rather eat and keep the house.

Now I suppose if something really bad happens, that if I declared bankruptcy, then in a sort of way, the insured would pay for it.

There are a great number of working people, who are not insured by their employers, or are self-employed. These people are going to do everything possible to stay on the ethical side of things ( not get in trouble for not paying their bills)

I'm hoping I can make it ten more years.....to Medicare!

BTW, I liked Edwards idea of dropping the Medicare age to 55. More younger, healthier people in the pool to pay premiums, yet many more covered.

[West Coast Democrat]

77. When the unisured are unable to pay.....

that's the situation most people refer to when they say that the insured end up paying for the uninsured. If the uninsured are unable to pay, the health care costs increase as a whole.

[uptohere]

99. "most everyone will work with you"

The nurse didn't agree to wait to be paid for that service, the meds whathaveyou. This is debt recovery for them. They hope that they will receive the money you agree to pay but the truth is that most of the time they won't. I did computer systems for the recovery people at a local hospital, this is for real.

People will say that they charge the uninsured more than the insured for a given treatment course. It's true, sort of. The insurers negotiate a price that they will pay which is less than what they would prefer. No negotiation ? No discount. The benefit to the health care provider is that they can expect timely payment. This allows them to pay those salaries, buy the drugs and supplies, pay the taxes etc. And to cover when folks cannot make timely payment or make payment at all.

Thats part of why people say this.

For those out there with chainsaws out there ready to dismember me, I am the first to admit that healthcare is a complicated subject even without the profit motive being thrown in. I'm just trying to cover this honest question posed with a real answer.

[w4rma]

98. you're welcome

Their proposals range from
A) eliminating all of Bush's top heavy tax cuts and using that 1/3 of that money saved to pay for a universal health care system (many different versions of that were explained, all of them will redirect resources to the middle and lower classes) and the other 2/3s of that money to balance the budget or pay down the national debt (which is basically a tax on Americans by big banks)
to
B) eliminating all of Bush's tax cuts for the upper 1% wealthiest Americans while keeping his much smaller and fewer middle class tax cuts and using the savings on a universal healthcare system (many different versions of that were explained, all of them will redirect resources to the middle and lower classes) and the rest will go to balance the budget and pay down the national debt.

It is obvious that the tax cuts to the investor class have not worked. It is obvious that the investor class doesn't invest that money in the American economy but instead buys new vacation homes overseas and opens overseas factories. It's also obvious that Bush's tax cuts are a means to redirect resources away from middle and lower class Americans to Bush's oligopolist board member buddies.

[West Coast Democrat]

28. Why would the Dem Candidates NOT Bash Bush?

His administration has been a complete and utter failure. All of the candidates provided real plans for the economy, the Iraq quaqmire, the health care crisis, etc. I'm sure, had you watched the debate, you might have noticed that.

[caledesi]

57. That's right! Xan.

[caledesi]

103. Also, have they forgotten the relentless Clinton bashing from

day 1 of his very successful presidency.

How many of these patriots were running around w/ flag when we went into Kosovo?

[ibegurpard]

30. No one cares about nor expects to influence the opinions of Republicans

We are more interested in speaking to Democrats and intelligent Independents.

[g_w_blaaarg]

46. He's right about Bush, you know!

As far as I can see he has done nothing except exactly everything he said he would.

Taken from a stump speech during his campaign:

"I want to make clear to everyone here tonight that, as president, I intend to turn our current budgetary surplus and turn it into the largest deficit in recent history! <applause> I intend to do what it takes to present the image of America as a rogue, imperialist nation - endangering our foreign interests abroad and encouraging terrorism on an unprecendented scale! <applause> I will send our military to hostile enviroments, give them substandard living conditions and, God willing, reduce their VA benefits! <applause> I will continue to mispronounce simple words like "nuclear" and "subliminal" and squint like an idiot when making scripted remarks! <wild applause> I will drop dogs in front of startled children, fall off a Segway, and pass out after choking on a pretzel while watching football! <confused stares, then light applause> In short, with your support, I intend to make people in this country sit up, slap their forehead, and wonder who the hell made this guy president of these United States! <wild applause> God Bless you all, and God Bless America! <applause>

Can't argue with him there!

[Cha]

84. Oh bush Said he was going to send our Country down the tubes!

That would have been a real campaign slogun!

bush lied from day 1 and hasn't told the truth since!

but then some people love Liars!

[uptohere]

15. Dean did poorly last night, almost as bad as my guy Edwards

as to the traditional objective of making one's point to the question posed (as opposed to bashing someone or saying what you had in your notes to say), Lieberman(10) smoked everyone and got in two quality zingers at Dean, Kucinich(8) was next best, then Graham(7), a tie between Gephardt(6) and Edwards(6), then Kerry(5) with Braun(4) and Dean(4) bringing up the rear. (Numbers in parens my informal scoring system, zip for not addressing the point or doing it poorly, one for making one but weakly and two for making it well. I left off scoring other factors as that is too subjective.)

Pained me to see Edwards just trying to figure out how to say what he came to say and try and answer the questions as well, started poorly but came around later. Gephardt started slow and screwed himself by running over and costing himself a chance to speak later. Kucinich started very well faltered and then finished strong and impressed me with his skills if not his message. Graham showed why he's a venerable polititian and impressed me by that. Dean managed to not look like a deer caught in the headlights (very well) but only scored well on his healthcare question, he just wouldn't deviate from hitting his practiced discussion bullets.

[Dookus]

35. Agreed..

I was most disappointed by Dean, Edwards and Graham.

Most favorably impressed by Gephardt and Moseley-Braun.

Kerry did OK, but nothing stellar.

Kucinich lost me entirely with his pledge to "cancel" NAFTA on his first day in office.

[uptohere]

79. yeah that notion wont take him far

but I was not judging on content but rather the answer and its presentation. One exception was Braun as she started getting into details and turned completely to mush in that process. Had she kept it simple she would have scored far higher.

Dennis had scored perfect up to those points, fixzzled there but came back with the immigration question. More coherance and attention to the question presented and he would have aced it as well.

I have to say I was impressed with Graham's grasp of the issues as I was with Gephardt's but thats to be expected from a couple of old hands.

Only one candidate managed to highlight the larger problem with free trade, that being the trade inequality that we're allowing. Noting the failure of Bush's boys to get China to play fair on trade measures by screwing with the currency.

For 50 points and the win, can you name that candidate ?

[Myra]

97. "I watched the debate...please explain what's so great about Dean"

The answer is that the media has annointed Dean
as the Dem "frontrunner," so we're supposed to
fall into line and back him. There must be
some reason why they're cramming him down our throats...

So he's great 'cause the media borg damn well says he's great!

Now just accept it as a fact, and quit thinking critically
and asking germain questions.
It's unamerican, unpatriotic, and marks you as a terra-ist.

[hooligan]

29. I think to best understand the appeal of Howard Dean

you had to be following him early on when he was relatively unknown. At the time, he seemed like the only candidate who really went after Bush. Analysts have suggested the other cadidates figured out this strategy worked for him and have now adopted it themselves, which was apparent in yesterdays's debate. For this reason, it rings a bit hollow coming from them. Dean was opposed to the Iraq war from day one, while other candidates were more or less enablers for this and other Bush policies like the tax cuts (which Dean also opposed). People also find his candor refreshing, even if it gets him in trouble sometimes. His pledge for universal health care is also attractive, and as an MD it seems he would have a good understanding of how the health care industry works. If anyone can pull it off, it seems like it would be Dean. But I think what people respond to most is his unapologetic belief in his liberal values. He is not afraid of the stigma that has come with the word "liberal." His message is, "This are my beliefs, and nobody is going to shame me into hiding them or compromising them."

(And before we get into a big discussion about how Dean is not liberal, understand that I am referring to how the right wing and the media labels him.)

Anyway, that is my evaluation of Dean's appeal.

[blm]

43. Can you list who voted for Bush's taxcuts?

I believe Dean was untruthful when he said they supported Bush's taxcut for the wealthiest. You see, though 12 Democrats DID vote for the taxcut, NONE of the Dem candidates did.

[hooligan]

36. By the way

if you are not sure where to send your money you could take the 'wait and see' approach. I think a lot of people are holding out to contribute to the final nominee. This way, they can ensure all their money will go towards defeating Bush. That is the approach I am taking anyway.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Kind of like the Grateful Dead.

Put it on tape and it's disappointing.

See it live and you're selling acid in the parking lot in order to buy a ticket to the show.


Just an analogy.

[Woodstock]

60. Here are some good links to listen to him

watch some of his speeches - that's the way to REALLY see what Dean is like - he's got fire, that's for sure, and really knows how to motivate people to support him (that's the thing that worries me about Kerry - he lacks fire)

Try this one for starters:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/webcast

And there are some good ones on CSPAN and his site. He tends to get a bit stiff during debates, but is really in his element when he is giving speeches to the crowds.

Try the Larry King interview, too:

quicktime: http://www.howarddean.tv/vid/qt/LarryKing_8-5-03.mov

or

windows media planer: http://www.howarddean.tv/v2/streaming_pages/wmp/128LarryKing_8-5-03.asp

[Sagan]

74. Want to know why I respect Dean?

Caveat - I like several Dem candidates. Dean, Clark, Kerry, Edwards.. they all appeal to me for different reasons.

I like Dean because while other Democratics were very wary of taking on the "popular wartime President*", Dean was out there ripping Chimpy a new asshole and openly saying that Chimpy's Big Iraq Whaq Attaq was a stupid idea.

He bet his whole candidacy on being right about Iraq. And he was. THAT'S what I like about Dean. Among other things, of course, but that one thing is what is responsible for his growing popularity, I think.

Now that other Dems see what Dean has tapped into, they'll follow his lead. But that's just it. They're FOLLOWING.

I'll vote for ANY Dem over Bush. And I'm not 100% sure who I'll vote for in the primary yet. But you wanted to know what I see in Dean. I see leadership.

[Cha]

86. Thank you, sagan! I see that, too. And have for a long time.

all these petty complaints are just fluff compared to what is really going on! Leadership!

[Julien Sorel]

96. I agree with you to a certain extent,

but prior to his opposition to the war, his whole candidacy wasn't worth very much, so it wasn't much of a risk. Nobody knew who the guy was outside of his home state. Contrast that to Kerry or Lieberman, who had name recognition and positions as favorites to lose, and you can see why they voted the way they did. (Well, Lieberman would have voted that way no matter what). Given the flopping that Dean has done since his candidacy has taken off, I have no doubt about how he would have voted on the resolution had he something to lose. He would very likely have played it as safe as the rest of them.

[CentristDemocrat]

78. I don't get the fascination either. He can hardly finish a sentence.

On a purely asthetic level, he talks like 100mph. His mouth moves faster than his brain and he seems a little short and robotic. He'd make a great DNC Chairman though.

[Cha]

87. Sorry, you don't "get it"!

How tall are you?

[Julien Sorel]

93. I doubt he's running for president.

So his height doesn't matter, does it?

[meisje]

83. simple, Dean is not Bush

I don't care who is on the dem ticket, well except for lieberhole, I'll vote for anyone!

[maxanne]

89. I am so weary

of the Vermont bashing. Vermont is a small, unimportant state, Vermont has more cows than people, Vermont is full of yuppies in Birkenstocks, Vermont is full of white folks, Vermont has only three electoral votes - pick your favorite slam.

You all can kiss my small town northern New England ass. :mad:

I think northern NE should secede from the union. We'd never again have to deal with southern politicians or Bible thumpers. Plus we'd have the monopoly on maple syrup production. We could negotiate a killer trade agreement.

Enough with the my state's dick is bigger than yours bullshit, please.

[Upfront]

90. Send Your Money to Dean

if you want to beat Bush. You need to hear Dean speak at a rally somewhere. The 1st time I heard him speak, It was over, I was sold on Dean. I stil am.

[killbotfactory]

91. He's a man of science, which is refreshing after a few years of Bush's...

Ideological anti-fact agenda which is ruining our country.