Divide and Conquer, that is what we're facing

[MadHound]

Divide and conquer, it is a time honored tactic that has been used to suppress the masses in this country ever since the time of Bacon's Rebbellion. Divisions along racial lines, ethnic lines, sexual lines, religious lines. The masters of this country have always stirred the pot, pitting one faction against another, in order that the people of this country, who have more in common with each other than with their corporate and political overlords, never pose the gravest threat that the power elite can think of, uniting to overthrow their happy asses.

And yet in the past four decades, that is the very threat that the power elite in this country faced, that the people would unite against them. Racial barriers, ethnic barriers, sexual and religious barriers were all breaking down and fading away. The power elite were losing their main tool to keep the people oppressed, the power of division. This was brought about, in a large part, by the movements of the sixties and early seventie, civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, the anti-war movement, all of these were across the board unifying movements, forcing a diverse people into a cohesive whole. Something had to be done.

Thus was born the atmosphere we have today of poisonous, divisive hate. Through the mediums of mass media, hatred of that dreaded other was forced down the throat of mainstream America. And it is a practice that has been dreadfully successful. Instead of talking with our conservative neighbors on issues we have in common, we demonize them over issues that divide us. Rank and file Republicans demonize liberals because of percieved evil. Both sides have been sucked into this game, and it has successfully divided this country to the point that we really are on the brink of a civil war. And the only ones who benefit from this are the powerful elites, who can rule unquestioned and unfettered, laughing at our stupidity as they make their way to the bank yet again.

So it has come down to this friends, we must make peace with our neighbors, find those issues that unite us all rather than divide. It is always greeted with some amazement here that both us and the Freepers are bitching about the same issues. I propose this radical idea to you, that you and I on the left have more in common with our comrades on the right than either one of us have in common with the power elite who rule this country. And furthermore, if we are going to reshape and take back our country, we are going to have to make common cause with those on the right, otherwise we will be defeated by that tried and true tactic, divided and conquer.

So I propose to you a test. Find a friend, a relative, even a complete stranger, just so long that they are of a conservative bent. After that, sit down and talk with them rationally and intelligently about the issues of the day, especially the issues of economic security and justice. Yes, yes, I know that they could go off on a ballistic tangent about gay rights, church and state, etc. Ignore them, and steer the conversation towards common ground. I think that you will find yourself pleasantly surprised to have yourself a new ally in the fight for economic security in this land, and opposition to the excesses of the Bush administration.

This has to start somewhere, with somebody. Why not here and now, with us? This tactic worked fairly well in the early part of the twentieth century, when the working class of all stripes made common cause with each other, regardless of race, sex, or political leanings, all across the country. They were successful to the point of winning some major concessions, concessions that are now being done away with. It is now time to revive that coalition of all, simply to once again put the Fear into the power elite.

The old adage is coming true, divided, we're being fleeced. It is time to unite in order to protect ourselves. I think that you'll be amazed at what happens.

[ugarte]

1. Progress can be made with secular conservatives

but fundies are another matter. Don't even try talking facts unless you are also a Bible quoter, because that's all they know and all they respond to.

[MadHound]

2. Actually progress can be made with RW fundies,

I live in the middle of the Bible belt, so not only am I surrounded by them, I'm related to them. All it takes is knowledge of the Bible and the Christian believe system so that you can approach issues of commonality from a biblical viewpoint.

And even if you don't go that route, there are still issues that you can find commonality on. Go over to the freeper boards, you will find that they are just as freaked out about things like the New Freedom Commission, the Patriot Act, outsourced jobs, etc. as we are. Use that as a base, a starting point, and go from there.

[ugarte]

4. I've tried, believe me

I also have right-wing fundie relatives who actually don't agree with the war in Iraq and don't even care much for Bush. I really thought I was making progress with them and that they might, just might, go for Kerry...but I was in for a rude awakening.

Ultimately, they went for a straight Republican ticket simply because of homophobia and the abortion issue. Until I find a way to get around those two big issues, all the rest will never sway them.

I've had this experience with other fundies as well, but I agree it's important to make an effort to bridge the gap. They're not bad people, just totally rigid in their belief system.

[MadHound]

5. You're correct, those are the two big RW fundy bug-a-boos

But I think that if you keep hammering home(in a gentle way, of course) issues of economics, justice, and our disappearing civil liberties, you just might get a convert. Maybe not this year, or in '06. But '08 could be a good bet.

And it really doesn't have to be a convert to the Democratic party either, in fact it shouldn't be. The Democratic party is the flip side of the problem, you know, our two party/same corporate master system of government. Instead, why not steer them to the Green party, who stand for the very same things that both liberals and conservatives believe in. Not only do they not carry that baggage that the Democratic party carries, they take no corporate money to boot.

[ClassWarrior]

6. Read "Don't Think of an Elephant." It will be a revelation.

Do your relatives want the government telling them who they can and can't marry? I don't think so.

So we ban abortion. Do they believe that we have a responsibility to the hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of unwanted children who will be born?

This is about reframing the debate so people discuss it on OUR terms, not the Radical RW's. The idea is to get them thinking about these things and not just jerking their knees.

Please pick up a copy. You'll especially like Chapter 10, "How to Respond to Conservatives," which is online for your reading pleasure:

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/howtorespond

NGU.

[MadHound]

7. As a follow up,

Abortion and gay rights have been the two big clubs with we, the American people, have been clubbed into two opposing camps. Race, religion, ethnicity, all of those old clubs had started losing their effectiveness by the end of the seventies, thus new weapons had to be developed by the power elite to keep us apart. Thus was born the big broo-ha-ha over abortion and gay rights.

The vast majority of people are socialists at their core. If they are starving, they're going to take what they need. Appealing to peoples' economic needs, and their longing for social justice will cause the issues of abortion and gay rights to fade in importance in their minds.

[ClassWarrior]

9. Read the book. People's "own interests" can be trumped by framing.

People don't vote economic needs, social justice, or any particular issue so much as VALUES. They want to know they can TRUST their elected officials. If I can trust you, then I know you'll do the right thing, whatever that is. Don't make me figure out what the right thing is, that's your job, that's why I voted for you.

This is what the Radical RW have figured out. It's the whole I-wanna-have-a-beer-with-Dubya** thing. We won't get anywhere if we say we're going to boost your paycheck or bring justice - if they don't TRUST us. Cuz the Radical RW says they'll do the same things for the voter. We have to get them to trust us first.

And, as Lakoff says in the book, this should be a cakewalk, because Progressives represent the best in American values: hope, responsibility, opportunity, compassion. We just need to get better at TELLING people about it.

NGU.

[MadHound]

12. I agree with you to a certain exent, but

I think that the whole "values" meme is an issue that has been whipped into a frenzy simply to further divide us. I look back into the history of the early twentieth century labor and social justice movement, and there you didn't have the devisiveness of "values". You had groups of people from all walks of life, with all sorts of different values, all coming together under the banners of the IWW and the Socialists because of the dire economic and social issues of the day.

Values are a fine thing to have when your belly is full, but they won't put food on the table, and disappear into thin air when your belly is empty.

[ClassWarrior]

14. I disagree. Those groups of people from all walks of life...

...had all sorts of different issues, but they all shared - and share to this day - the best in American values: opportunity, responsibility, caring, and hope.

NGU.

[Geek_Girl]

41. Democrats are also going to have to work

Hard at exposing the corruption. We break that trust between republicans and middle America and maybe we can gain some ground. But this has to be done and we're not going to get much help from the Main stream media

[MadHound]

43. Don't you get it friend? Democrats are part of the problem,

Because they too are corrupted by the corporate interests in this country. We are living under the two party/same corporate master system of government. And the primary interests of both parties is to take care of those who got them into office, and we're not talking about the voters here friend, we're talking about the monied interests.

Insteadm, what we have to do is join with those who are in the same shape we're in, overcome that artificial divide between Democrat and Republican, form a third party of all people. That is the only way to bring about real change in this country.

[Geek_Girl]

39. I had the same experience

With co-workers, family members and friends. I'm so mad at them I don't want to even talk to them. But at some point I'm going to have to.

[readmoreoften]

38. It's the Christian Left's job to reach the fundies

That's a funny comment:

"All it takes is knowledge of the Bible and the Christian believe system so that you can approach issues of commonality from a biblical viewpoint."

That's ALOT for most people who have minor knowledge (or no knowledge) of the Bible and no Christian belief system. I almost think you're joking.

[MadHound]

40. Gotta try somehow, someway friend

Hey, I'm a pagan living in the Bible Belt, and I'm making progress with my rural friends and neighbors. If I can do such a thing, anybody can friend. Just don't try beating them over their head with their own hypocrisy. Instead, approach them with issues that we all have in common, and work from there.

[ClassWarrior]

3. Amen. The only issues I have with my RW friends...

...spring from their drinking the Rovian Kool-Aid. As a matter of fact, I honestly believe that, if it weren't for the Radical RW hatespeech they parrot, they would in fact be Progressives.

One woman in particular is delightfully independent, rebellious, and strong - but ask her to support a so-called "bleeding heart liberal," and you'll get an earful about flip-flops, a lack of morals, etc. Never mind that she displays all the symptoms of being a Progressive herself.

I do have to say the fact of my presence on her radar has gone a long way toward softening those feelings in her - I'm not the cartoon that the Radical RW paints, and this says something to her. So you are correct Mad. We need to create opportunities to talk with "the other side" and build bridges in the many places where we have something in common.

But this is only half of the equation. We also need to hone our message so we become good at expressing it in these people's terms. We need to learn to relate our values to them in a way that's meaningful to them. And we need to dis-relate the destructive and dishonest so-called "values" of the Radical RW from them.

Two good places to start:

• "Don't Think of an Elephant," a groundbreaking new book by George Lakoff - short, easy-to-read, less than $10.

• DU's own "Frame The Debate" forum, founded on this very idea of working to craft our message, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=252

NGU.

[w4rma]

8. We need the help from Dems in Congress, though. THEY need to quit voting

with Republicans on things that the Democratic base and large portions of the Republican base are opposed to. These issues are often ones where they capitulated to big corps. They *have* to stop doing this. It makes it MUCH tougher to convince a right-winger that Dems are pro-freedom when Dems are hiding, in fear, behind Repugs on the Patriot Act and other anti-Bill of Rights issues.

This is why the DLC influence into the Democratic Party has resulted in these huge losses.

[MadHound]

10. We need to stop relying on the Dems or 'Pugs, and start doing for our own

Democratic, Republican, it doesn't matters, they are the two sides of the same coin, the two party/same corporate master system of government that is ruining this country for most of us while rewarding the elite, powerful few. Breaking it down into the either/or paradigm is simply playing into the hands of the power elite, it pits people against each other who really have more in common with each other than they do with the "leaders" of either party.

Rather than breaking it down into the two party system, let us start bringing together people on the basis of our commonalities, forming our political strength around that, rather than around what divides us. This can be done using a party structure that is already in place(my favorite option for this is the Greens, since they take no corporate cash), or we could simply form an entirely new peoples' party. Whatever we do, we cannot build this type of movement on the frame of either of the two major parties, since both are entirely corrupted, and are collapsing under their own weight.

[ClassWarrior]

13. Agreed, but doing it thru the Greens would be an uphill battle.

I think it will be INFINITELY easy for Progressives to infiltrate the the Dem party from the grassroots and take it over that way, because the party leaders aren't paying a lot of attention to the grassroots. And while the party itself is stagnant, the values at the core of the Dem party are the right ones.

NGU.

[MadHound]

17. So, it would be an uphill battle,

The best things of life don't always come easy. But working with the existing power structure of the two major parties is exactly what the power elite WANT you to do. Channel all of that energy and passion into an exercise that is, in the end, ultimately futile.

The only thing that the existing power structure truly responds to is an overwhelming outside threat, like they did during the early part of the twentieth century. Back then it was the Socialists and the Wobblies they responded to, that forced them in concessions. Today it could be the Greens, or a party of our own making.

But trying to work reform from the inside is playing into their hands. While you expend your time and energy into issues that will ultimately get shelved, the power elite of both parties can procede with the business of reducing us to serfs unhindered. I would suggest that you read "A People's History of the United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060937319/102-9423339-3734529?v=glance> in you want further insight into how this dynamic has worked throughout US history.

Many people have tried reforming the Democratic or Republican party from within, and for the most part, all has come to naught. The only thing that the power elite understands is power, and the only power the common people have is in numbers and independence. To slave one's self to an elite's party is taking away one of the legs that we could stand on. Not a good idea friend.

[ClassWarrior]

20. But you still don't understand...

This isn't about expending our "time and energy into issues that will ultimately get shelved." This isn't about ISSUES at all. This is about infiltrating the party with the values that made the party once great. By calling out the corrupt and cynical within its ranks. By being pure and expecting nothing less. By not being afraid of conflict.

Did you read "What's the Matter with Kansas?" The Radical RW overtook the GOP from the shabby blue collar split-levels of KC. Because the people who lived in those homes got in the faces of the people they saw as corrupt and cynical in their own party.

The model is there. It can work.

NGU.

[MadHound]

21. And quite frankly those people are getting screwed no matter which party

That they are with! We are living in the Second Gilded Age friend, where it is equal opportunity screwing for the common man irregardless of party affiliation. What is needed to truly makeover America into the country we all know it can be is an outside threat, something to make the power elite sit up and take notice. It was such outside threats that finally curbed the worst of the corporate/government excesses of the First Gilded Age, it will take such outside threats to turn things around in this Gilded Age.

Republican and Democrat are simply two sides of the corporate controlled government coin. Doesn't matter which side comes up friend, the common folks lose.

[ClassWarrior]

23. Wow. What a dark, seamy, un-Progressive view of the world THAT is.

NGU.

[MadHound]

25. The truth is dark and seamy sometimes, but tell me friend,

Can you deny that what I speak of is the truth? Can you look back upon the past twenty five years, at the policies enacted by both 'Pugs and Dems, and deny that both parties have systematically set out to oppress the middle and lower class in order to enrich themselves and their corporate masters?

The truth about our current time is just as ugly as the truth about the First Gilded Age was. I would suggest that you read "Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich" by Kevin Phillips<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767905334/102-9423339-3734529?v=glance> for further insight into these matters. We are living in the Second Gilded Age, and the robber barons do rule the roost, both in government and corporations. And that my friend, is precisely why we need an outside threat in order to enact a real change in this country.

[w4rma]

28. I'm sorry but your plan is a road to ruin.

And in the end you'll have to bring everyone back together to vote Democratic anyway.

[MadHound]

30. Read your history friend, our forefathers laid this plan out for us

And followed it succesfully. They brought about meaningful change in this country, changes that you and I are still benefitting from(at least for a little while).

A massive uprising by all people, conservative or liberal, who have more things in common that things that divide them is the one big club that the common folks have always had, and that the power elite have always feared. Why not use that club now, before it is too late?

[w4rma]

33. BS, they could have worked to bring about change differently.

They could have chosen to do something like what the DFA is doing. They didn't and our country was handed over to the robber barons until the stock market crash united folks against the robber barons and brought those people back to the Democratic Party.

[MadHound]

42. Do you know where the DFA sprang from friend?

Go research your history, I've suggested a couple of books. Go read, then get back to me.

PS, a clue for you, the Socialists, Communists and Wobblies in this country came about as a response to the robber barons, not as the cause of the robber barons. Get your facts straight friend.

[ClassWarrior]

11. We need to educate them, then.

Remember the old adage about democracy: When the people lead, the leaders follow. Make it a habit to call your Congressperson's office every day. Or write a LTTE. Or send snail mail. Or join your county Dem party. Or run for office yourself. The Radical RW were only able to consolidate their strength because they fought hard at the grassroots.

NGU.

[MadHound]

15. And now, in the Second Gilded Age, as in the First,

You are going to have to go completely outside the mainstream party structure in order to effect change within it. Back in the bad old days of the early twentieth century, it didn't matter who was in power in government, Dem or 'Pug, the abuses of the robber barons continued unabated. The only thing that put a halt to the worst of the abuse was that people started joining the Socialist parties, the IWW, the Communist parties, or simply doing for themselves and their own. This threw the corporate/government power structure into such a furor over their decreasing power, and the looming threat of a united working class, that they finally started to make concessions.

Working within the power structure of either of the two major parties is an exercise in futility. The only way to bring about meaningful change in this country is to go outside of that power structure. You will then either force change onto the two major parties, or you will take the reigns of power into your own hands and effect change that way.

[ClassWarrior]

16. Disagree. The only way to force change onto any party is to become it.

Not to detach from it. That's the perfect recipe for dividing ourselves to be conquered. Think of Nader 2000.

NGU.

[MadHound]

19. Think of the Socialists and Wobblies of the early twentieth century

By their outside threat, they forced both the government and corporations into concessions and compromises that were undreamed of ten years earlier. You know, things like the minimum wage, the forty hour work week, the abolishment of child labor, Social Security, unemployment insurance among many other matters.

Trying to work within a party structure is simply playing into the elites hands. You waste your time on reports, meetings, committees, etc etc ad nauseum while they continue to savage the nation.

Many many untold people have tried to walk the path you recommend, myself included. And yet they have nothing to show for it. The only tried and true method to bring about real change in this country is a massive grassroots rebellion that is outside of the control of both government and corporations. Such is a threat is the only thing that makes the power elite truly pay attention.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Two words: electronic media.

The early 20th century is another time. Party lines shifted often in those days. In the contemparary era, many, many untold people have tried to walk the path you recommend - that is, starting a new party - myself included. And it's only served to - yes - divide us for conquering.

What's more, we have plenty to show for working within the Democratic Party. And it's dishonest to say we don't.

NGU.

[MadHound]

24. LOL friend, what exactly do we have to show lately?

An illegal immoral war with bipartisan support. A clamp down on our civil liberties in the form of the Patriot Act, also with bipartisan support. Every single one of our Senators and Congressmen rushing out to the Capital steps en masses to parrort the Pledge of Allegiance, complete with the phrase "under God" as soon as the 9th CC handed down it's ruling. A bipartisan attack on our public school system via the non-funded NCLB. And on, and on, ad nauseum.

So let's look at the reforms brought about by Clinton. NAFTA, which began that great run on outsourcing jobs. The '96 Telecom Act which truly consolidated the media into the hands of a very few corporations. Welfare reform, yipee, let's rip away the social safety net. Don't ask, don't tell, which causes more problems than it solves. Looks like the record of a 'Pug trying to disquise himself as a Dem.

Go read your history friend, this is the same exact pattern of bipartisan screwing that happened during the First Gilded Age, where robber barons ruled the roost, and we had the second greatest discrepancy in wealth between the upper one percent and the rest of us. Guess what, the greatest discrepancy started with Clinton, and has only widened since then. Two party/same corporate master system of government friend, until you realize that one fundemental truth, you are going to be doomed to banging your head against a brick wall trying to reform from within. I know, I've been there, done that for years and decades now. And what is there to show for my efforts? A party moving ever further rightward, and ever deeper in the pockets of corporate Aemrica.

Sorry, but starting a third party outside of the current political structure is the only thing that will bring enough of a threat to bear to bring about real change in this country. By starting a third party you deprive the corporatists of their political tool for controlling the masses, the two party system. Deprive them of that tool, and the rest of the government, and the country will soon follow. Its that simple.

[w4rma]

26. Maybe the Guilded Age happened *because* of 3rd Party splits?

It's how Hitler came into power. The Communist Party split off TO let Hitler gain power because they incorrectly thought that Hitler would make things so bad that folks would run to the Communist Party.

[IrateCitizen]

29. No, not in this country, Rick...

The Gilded Age was the direct result of government policies that were formed to benefit and enable industrialists in the period following the Civil War. Perhaps most glaring was the way in which the government gave away vast tracts of Federal land to the railroads, who then profitted immensely from the generosity. But in return, the government did nothing to intervene in the railroads in the areas of labor rights or public safety -- essentially, the government was allied with industry AGAINST the populace.

The Gilded Age was also largely bipartisan, as evidenced by the way that the administrations of Grover Cleveland went out of their way to enable business interests with the same vigor as the Republican administrations of Grant, Hayes, McKinley and Harrison did.

[w4rma]

31. Yes in this country. You spoke of political parties in THIS country

who had split off from the Democratic Party.

[IrateCitizen]

34. No, I never spoke of such a thing, Rick.

I was simply rebutting your contention that the Gilded Age came about because of a 3rd party split. There is no historical record that comes anywhere close to making that assertion.

However, it could be argued -- and has been, numerous times -- that the END of the Gilded Age was precipitated by the rise of various 3rd parties, namely the Socialists, Populists and Progressives. Many historians argue that the seeds of FDR's New Deal were not new ideas from Democrats, but rather the adoption of many of the proposals that these parties were pushing for many years earlier.

[MadHound]

36. Read your history friend, and you will see that everything old

Is new again.

The First Gilded Age came about because of the intertwining of corporate and political power. The government ceded a lot of it's power to corporations, and for the most part, was entirely beholden to corporations. Then as now, it was political donations that fueled government corruption. It finally got to the point that it mattered not which political party was in power, both parties were beholden to the same corporate interests, and put those interests before the will and the needs of the people. This is the age of the robber barons, child labor, the laisse faire marketplace where a person's life didn't matter, just so long as the line kept moving. The disparity in income between the rich and the rest of us was so great that it was only surpassed in the Clinton years, when the Second Gilded Age started. The end of the First Gilded Age was predictable, it was the Great Depression.

With the Democrats working hand in hand in hand with the Republicans and the great corporations, the ordinary person was completely shut out of the any meaningful way to change things. Yes, you could vote, but what did your vote matter when the person you voted into office answered to the same corporate whip as the person you just voted out? People saw this for what it was, and started organizing. They organized around labor unions, such as the Wobblies(IWW) and third party political organizations such as the Socialists. Through the hard work, strikes, and ever growing popularity of these outside the mainstream groups, concessions were finally forced out of the government/corporate power structure, concessions that we still enjoy to this day, such as the minimum wage, forty hour work week, Social Security, and unemployment insurance, among many others.

Yet all of this is in danger of slipping away because once again the government comprised of the same two major political parties has made unholy alliance with the corporate powers in this country. And while one can bang your head against the wall forever trying to force change and reform from within, unless you've got serious money, you're not going to be heard. Thus it is again time for the commom folks to join hands and work from outside the mainstream power structure in order to force real change in this country. Otherwise, as we have seen happening for the past twelve years, corporations will eventually force the common folks into virtual slavery, in this the land of the free.

I would suggest that if you're interested in these matters that you read two books, "Peoples History of the United States" by Howard Zinn, and "Wealth and Democracy" by Kevin Phillips. I've included Amazon links upthread for your convience.

[ClassWarrior]

18. .

[IrateCitizen]

27. I've seen this phenomenon numerous times myself, MadHound...

When I was in the service (just 3-4 short months ago), I was cordial with a long-time NCO who was someone that would be described as a Freeper. Not a foaming-at-the-mouth Freeper, but one who was reasonably well-informed but had their opinions shaped by the likes of Sean Hannity and Faux Nooze.

Through discussions with this guy, I found that there were two MAJOR areas in which the two of us agreed 100%, and we found ourselves in direct opposition to the line taken by the two major parties. They were:
1. The need to institute public funding for political campaigns, a'la "Clean Elections" as instituted in AZ and ME
2. The need to drastically decrease the influence that corporations have on every aspect of our daily lives.

One thing I think that's interesting is the way you term this the Second Gilded Age. I think perhaps the most telling proof of this is the way that we've moved from being a country that believed in a strong social safety net and government intervention in the marketplace to curb its worst excesses, to one that now swallows the gospel of market fundamentalism hook, line and sinker. I believe that much of this can be traced back to the administration of Ronald Reagan, undoubtedly tied for the mantle of the most influential President of the 20th century with FDR.

We still live under Reagan's shadow today, because much of the philosophy he advanced has been accepted and promoted by the majority of politicians from both parties. In this sense, the Democrats are fighting a losing battle, because every proposal or idea that they have is just seen as massaging the ideas promoted by the right.

Many here revere Bill Clinton as a great President, simply because he seemed to offer relief from the RW juggernaught that had ruled the Oval Office for 12 straight years. I will never cease in disagreeing with this take, because the Clinton years continued the philosophy of Reagan as seen in the primacy of the market and the "badness" of any kind of direct government intervention. Certainly, it was market fundamentalism practiced with a slightly more compassionate touch, but it was market fundamentalism regardless. It also signaled the end of Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress, a blow from which we are still reeling to this day.

Personally, I like Kevin Phillips' assessment of the Clinton presidency -- he was a modern-day Grover Cleveland, a Democrat who presided over an administration where Republican values still ruled, and who happened to be lucky enough to be in office during a technological boom that made him seem much more effective than he really was. Both also saw it as their primary goal to enable big business rather than represent citizens against the excesses of big business.

I don't think we need to operate solely within the Democratic Party, but I also don't think that such a movement needs to have a party label, either. In fact, a party label might inhibit it from having the kind of broad-based appeal that is needed. But I do know that we are in the midst of a second Gilded Age, this one worse than the first because it is accompanied by the spectre of endless war and push for empire, which could make the fall much worse than the Great Depression was....

[MadHound]

32. Well said, and thank you

I agree with everything that you speak of. And I can't take credit for the bit about this being the Second Gilded Age, that comes from Phillip's "Wealth and Democracy"

About Clinton, I think that the real reason for the impeachment attempt by the 'Pugs is that they realized that Clinton was outdoing them at their own game, and if allowed to continue, he would make the need for Republicans go away. And yes, he is the modern day Clevland. Thankfully he cannot run for another term.

And you very well could be right about not needing a party label. But such a movement outside of the normal parties would need some sort of rubric around which to organize, be it political(as the Socialists were) or economical(as the Wobblies were). If there is no organization, then matters will fall apart. People need organizations, and also labels, as a way of short hand identifying themselves, both to themselves, and others.

[w4rma]

35. Democracy for America already exists. Join up.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/

[MadHound]

37. Where friend?

And don't make me laugh by saying the Democratic party!