I am hearing about Christian fundies everywhere

[BayCityProgressive]

trying to force Merry Christmas and other nonsense back onto public property and businesses. So here is a quote from the bible all these Catholic Bishops and glossed over televangelists need to read:

Matthew 6
...
5 "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

[RPM]

1. puh-leeeeeze

that's in the new testament - these christians don't believe in that part (save Revelations). Too touchy-feely; they only dig on the fire and brimstone God who demands that persons sacrifice their children.

Sick fucks

[ElsewheresDaughter]

6. yup.......they are Old Testement Christians

[tanyev]

7. Wouldn't that be a Jew?

:D

[LynzM]

8. LOL, yeah

That's been my reply for a while to all the stuff quoted at length from Leviticus... as in, "if that's the only part of the Bible you're reading, doesn't that make you a Jew, instead of a Christian"?

[RPM]

11. nope - none of the jews in my neighborhood are into sacrifice.

Havent heard any suspicious blood curdling screams in my neighborhood yet.

I know what you are saying - i'm not entirely clear on that. I think there are some overlapping books, but not sure which or if its the entire OT.

BTW - my neighborhood could be the greatest, most friendly neighborhood in the country. About 40% jewish, about 60% others (some christian, some ambivalent, etc.). Best of all about a 90% / 10% Dem to Pug ratio. At a block party this summer (yes we blocked off the city street for a block party) a neighbor introduced herself and began bashing bush - then not knowing us (we're new to the neighborhood) she said "oh, I'm sorry - you're not a republican , are you?" We said hell no and had a great laugh....

[tanyev]

16. Christians accept both the OT and NT

as the holy inspired word of God, but the whole point of Jesus coming as the promised Messiah was to fulfill the covenant described in the OT. The NT supersedes the OT and the laws and regulations should be irrelevant to a people truly living by the command Jesus gave, "Love one another."

I'm mighty suspicious of Christians who revel in the angry, vengeful God of the Old Testament.

[RPM]

22. That's what I thought...

But someone (not a fundy, but someone who is pretty well versed in catholic doctrine) told me the other day, that the NT doesnt superceed the OT. He cited some quote by Christ to the effect of "i do not come to change the law, but to fulfill it." Wasnt in the mood for a battle so i finished my burger....

Any cred to that claim/quote of his?

[Arianrhod]

29. To me, it's the same thing.

If something is fulfilled, then it's no longer in force.

[tanyev]

30. Yes, Jesus did say that,

but you have to look at it in context.

Matt. 5:17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them." He continues on in verse 20, "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

This from the same guy who in Matt. 23:13 blasts the scribes and the Pharisees with, "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in."

I think the point of Matt. 5:17 and following is that no one is perfect enough to earn their way into heaven. That's why his death on the cross was necessary to atone for sin.

And it's my opinion that the fundie Christians are a modern day version of the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

34. read 2 Corinthians 3... Old Covenant (Mosiac Law) vs The New Conenant

Ministers of the New Covenant
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, Ex. 24.12 but in fleshly tables of the heart. Jer. 31.33

4 ¶ And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; Jer. 31.31-34 not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 ¶ But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; Ex. 34.29 which glory was to be done away;

8 how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 and not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, Ex. 34.33 that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[RPM]

35. wow - that sounds as if the old rule is compeltly overruled.

Nice to know even the bible rejects literalism.

I hate literalists, from Scalia to the average run of the mill fundy.

[Arianrhod]

45. I think an even better description is Romans 1-4. n/t

[BiggJawn]

28. No, because Jews read more than JUST Leviticus.

These Fundies, as it's been pointed out, really only believe 2 books in the Bible: Leviticus and Revelations.

Oh, and any choice bits that can be perverted into being about giving money to the Pastor, too...

[peacebird]

2. beautiful!

i'm normally not one for bible verses but extreme times call for extreme measures.

is there a forum for bible quotes we can use to toss back at the fundies? i am willing to memorize a number for use against fundies but i REALLY don't want to have to read thru and find these nuggets myself...

[recovering democrat]

39. Bible references

Honestly, I found that if I gave them quotes back, it really did at least cause the fundies to think about some of their own comments. When I found these, I was mostly looking for materials about the Founders quotes about religion. Some of these are pretty good and can help if you don't want to do a lot of reading yourself:

http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AHitler.htm - series of quotes from Adolf Hitler

http://www.literaryhistory.com/Bible.htm - use the link for "Bible Study Guide". An interesting quote from that site: "As a Christian, there is no other part of the New Right ideology that concerns me more than its self-serving misuse of religious faith. What is at stake here is the very integrity of biblical truth. The New Right, in many cases, is doing nothing less than placing a heretical claim on Christian faith that distorts, confuses, and destroys the opportunity for a biblical understanding of Jesus Christ and of his gospel for millions of people." - Senator and Evangelical Christian Mark Hatfield.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/welcome.htm - home page with links to a bunch of great topics including quotes from Old and New Testament on "hot topics" such as abortion, death penalty, homosexuality, cloning, assisted suicide, etc.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ - really fun and most of the uptight fundies I know get very frustrated about this one!

Enjoy!

[peacebird]

42. thanks much! great starting point!

i love the shellfish ref's!!!

:evilgrin:

[Feathered Fish]

3. Gotta love fundies

who cherry-pick through the bible. Everyone's a missionary. :eyes:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

4. here 's my new bumpersticker

[demnan]

5. That's one of my favorites

right up there with "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".

[elehhhhna]

12. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". Then Mary lobs a giant rock

[Bridget Burke]

20. Somebody really understands the "Immaculate Conception"

Glad to have theologically knowledgeable folk here at DU.

[elehhhhna]

27. BB I'm glad I'm not the only smartass dem in the Houston area.

Good on ya, girl!

[absolutezero]

9. I like it

I'm going to use that one

[Katarina]

10. Just read an article on my local news

about this. The entire article is disgusting but it was the last line that sent chills up my spine.

<snip>
"Why not simply require stores owned by Jews to put a gold star in their ads and on their storefronts?" the Rev. Jim Melnyk, associate rector of St. Mark's Episcopal Church in Raleigh, wrote in a letter to the editor.
http://www.local6.com/family/3998418/detail.html#

There you go folks. This is it. I honestly never thought I would see this day.

[tanyev]

13. Wow.

Is the entire text of his letter available anywhere?

[Katarina]

14. I'll see if I can find it

I'll post it if I find it.

[BayCityProgressive]

15. he was arguing against

Church showings on public property. he is an Episcopal priest, he is no conservative. I think he was trying to say we don't all have to wear our religion on our sleaves.

[Katarina]

18. Here's another article

<snip>
"Why not simply require stores owned by Jews to put a gold star in their ads and on their storefronts?" Melnyk wrote in a letter to the editor published the following day. "Wooden and his church have put away their anti-homosexual rhetoric for the holidays so they can focus their discrimination on non-Christians. Who will be next?"

In an interview, Melnyk said he agrees with Wooden that the main focus of Christmas should be on its religious meaning. But he said he was alarmed by the way the ad made its point.

"I reacted to ... the implicit approval of boycotting people who are different. I don't think that's what they intended, but I think that's the message some people could take," Melnyk said.

"There was a move in pre-World War II Germany to not support Jewish merchants and Jewish businesses. That was the beginning of how Jews were separated out, and it later became something much more heinous."

Wooden said he isn't advocating boycotts or discrimination.
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/10398906.htm

[tanyev]

23. Oh, that's better.

The first article should have done a better job explaining the context.

[BiggJawn]

26. The first article did exactly what it was supposed to do...

Which was to smear The Rev. Jim Melnyk...

I saw that and thought "Those who do NOT learn from History..." then I see the post where the FULL content of his comment came through.

Yep, it's called "EDITING"....

[Katarina]

25. ok, I found it

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/ncwire_news/story/1920360p-8267891c.html

After reading several articles I can see that Patrick Wooden Sr is the culprit here. I really had no way of knowing that it was sarcasm. I read the quote and it just chilled me. I just wish there were some other way to make people "get it". Mr. Woooden will probably think it's a lovely idea. Sorry everyone. I suppose I should research more before I post. :-(

[FlaGranny]

19. The quote you noted

above, I believe, was in response to the notion that "Merry Christmas" should be required. It pointed out that the next step was Jews being required to put gold stars on their storefronts. I haven't seen the entire letter to the editor (the article only seems to like to quote that one sentence); I think the Rev. Melnyk is very much against the requirement for "Merry Christmas." I'd like to see the entire LTTE.

[Bridget Burke]

21. He's being sarcastic....

I'm quite sure he knows the history of his remark.

I once met somebody who claimed his parents were "fanatic Episcopalians"--huh?

[yardwork]

33. In context, the minister was being sarcastic

He's on our side, as are most Episcopal Churches.

What really makes me mad is that the fundies - encouraged by the right-wing - are fussing about this and claiming that WE are the ones trying to "ban Christmas."

In other words, they're casting themselves as martyrs, claiming that they are being oppressed, and then jamming their religion down our throats!

Every day is opposite day in bushco.

[buckettgirl]

41. why do they think EVERYONE celebrates christmas????

Seperation of church and state is a must, and no nativity scene should be placed on government property - unless they are willing to put all the other symbols of religion up as well.
People can celebrate Christmas, they can say Merry Christmas. Why the hell do they think otherwise? Why do they see other people as a threat to their religious values when they are, in fact, threatening everyone else's?
What pisses me off the most is that Christmas shouldn't even be a December holiday. Jesus was not born in December and the holiday was only used in December to better integrate/convert traditional pagans to Christianity. It is no coincidence that December 21st is Winter Solistice/Yule.
Thanks for hijacking my holiday you religious wingnut bastards.

sorry for the rant, but this kind of crap pisses me off. If they really want to be religious, then they shouldn't be buying gifts and going back to the true meaning of the holiday.
"Hallelujah, holy shit!" - Clark W. Griswold, Christmas Vacation

[readmylips]

17. Mathew 6/5 is what Catholics teach....

that is why the tradition of the Catholic mass is quiet and serene. But, in keeping up with US religions, the Catholics today also have the Born Again loud pentecostal sermons.

[Bridget Burke]

24. There is a Catholic Charismatic movement.

The roots of the charismatic thing can be found in African-American worship practices. This style of worship does not necessarily indicate Fundamentalist theological beliefs.

The Dominionists hate the charismatics because they tend toward ecumenicism. Of course, the Dominionists hate just about everybody.

[Zenlitened]

32. Can't love yourself without hating someone else....

... Can't have an Us without a Them.

</sarcasm>

Sick, isn't it? :(

[ElsewheresDaughter]

36. Opus Dei....scary bunch

[Skidmore]

31. Funny you mention that. I e-mailed Scarborough Country this morning.

The following is the text of my comments to them:

I must say your program has arrived at a point where you have outfoxed Fox. Over the last week, Mr. Buchanan has been presiding over what has been, without a doubt, one of the most unbridled hatefests I've ever witnessed. By bringing on religious zealots of all stripes night after night and baiting them without fostering true dialogue, Mr. Buchanan is contributing to the degeneration of the civil discourse he is so frequently denounces. These program segments serve no purpose other than to further divide the nation and the world. As a Christian, I must say I have been astounded to learn this week that my right to worship has somehow become one and the same as the right to display commercial symbols of a holiday season. I've not noticed any lack of gaudy displays in any of the communities I travel through each day nor have I witnessed that people are being barred from their places of worship. This is generally true except the barrings of those individuals singled out as not worthy of God's grace by other Christians. I believe that the Lord taught us that it is up to God to judge man and not up to us. I have watched with equal amazement the caterwauling from some Christian extremists who appear to want to adopt simultaneously the roles of exclusive country club mavens AND the persecuted downtrodden. Perhaps Mr. Buchanan and some of his guests would better serve the nation by returning to their closets and praying for peace in the world and extend goodwill to all mankind, after the teachings of our Lord. An appropriate amount of humility and a little spiritual introspection combined with not assuming that they speak for God, would go a long way toward assisting the people on these panels to leave the world a little better than they have made it thus far.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. get your war on..........

[Karenina]

38. Funding the fundies...

http://www.politicalamazon.com/cr.html

[peacebird]

43. yikes....

quoted from that website:
"Let's remind ourselves of what Christian Reconstructionists have voiced as their beliefs and goals:

First and foremost: they believe that their interpretation of "God's law" (Mosaic, or Old Testament law) should be the law upon which all of society's laws should be based.
Censorship, based on their interpretation of the bible.
Discrimination against women, races other than Caucasian, and homosexuals.
Limiting a woman's decision-making abilities about what happens to them and their bodies.
Limiting women/homosexuals/nonwhite races' rights to hold property.
Limiting women/homosexuals/nonwhite races' voting rights.
Killing homosexuals and their supporters.
Doing away with the Federal Reserve System and a centralized form of government.
Imposing "creationism" as a science to be taught in schools.
Making changes on the educational system that would limit access to education for those who are poor, and those who are not "true believers" or who otherwise are objectionable to Christian Reconstructionist standards.
Abolishing unions and current workplace safety standards.
Giving militias some of the same powers our police departments have.
----------------------------
frightening when you think about how quickly they have moved since Nov 3rd to: impose creationism in schools; declare 10 Commandments should be posted in courts (1st step to "God's law" as rule of the land?); and promote censorship...

[Karenina]

44. Scroll down

for the short and skinny on R.J. Rushdooney...

http://www.antipasministries.com/oldnews/vol1no2.html


Dug around the HD and pulled this one up:

http://www.doublestandards.org/floyd4.html


Then stumbled across this:

Theonomic Reconstructionism:
One God, One Vote:

"We protect the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Now, we protect the most sacred treasure we have, our secret ballot." -Diebold CEO Wally O'Dell, May 2002.
"My purpose is total integration of biblical law into our lives." -Howard Ahmanson

How does a fervent belief in the End of the World and a conviction that the Bible (King James only, thank you ma'am) is the actual revealed word of God factor into one's long-term investment strategies? A strange question to be sure, but one that must have been posed by at least a few of the eclectic crowd who believe in Theonomic Reconstructionism.

Theonomic Reconstructionism is a belief that the only true authority is God's, that allegiance to biblical laws trumps that of civic law and that the Kingdom of Heaven needs to be built on Earth before Jesus will come again. In addition to that, homosexuals should be put to death, women should be banned from civic office, apostates and heretics should be stoned to death and there is a great need for more Christian politicians.

Not content to philosophize about such things, the TR movement sprang into action. Funded by billionaires such as Howard Ahmanson and the Coors and Hunt families, Reconstructionists formed think tanks such as the Chalcedon Institute and the Rutherford Institute (the friendly guys that funded Paula Jones' lawsuit against Clinton) to give the Christian Right a philosophical base to draw from, and political action committees to finance their elections.

....

According to the Reconstructionists, Jesus would do what Howard Ahmanson did. Ahmanson inherited his money from his father, owner of Home Savings & Loan (during the S&L scandal of the Reagan years, Home's investors, mostly small family investments, lost over $150 million dollars. No one went to jail). In addition to funding PACs and think tanks, Howard Jr. parlayed his fortune into the majority stock of a business called American Information Systems (AIS) started by two enterprising brothers, Todd and Bob Urosevich. AIS later merged with Business Records Corporation (BRC) and became Election Systems & Solutions (ES&S). ES&S is the number one provider of touch-screen voting machines. Their website claims that their products were used in collecting 56% of the national vote in the last presidential elections.

Todd Urosevich is now Vice President of ES&S. Strangely enough, brother Bob moved on to head the second largest computerized vote-counting business, Global Election Systems, recently purchased by ATM and security giant Diebold. (They now have both the Ohio and Georgia contracts.) In a round table swap of incestuous patronage the previous executives of Global moved on to head the third largest vote-counting company in the nation, Advanced Voting Systems. Combined, these three corporations will process nearly 80% of the next nationwide elections.


more
http://www.tabletnewspaper.com/politics/73_tftgk.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. They're not really "Old Testament" Christians

If you get past Leviticus and Deuteronomy, the Old Testament is full of very un-Republican material, especially the prophets, who are constantly blasting the rich for oppressing the poor. Where do you think the Jewish tradition of social activism comes from?

The fundamentalists are "pick and choose" Christian, ready to pick and choose any verse from anywhere that justifies their prejudices.