The case against spanking children

[ClearMessage]

I posted an essay about the negative effects of spanking children here, as it's too long to include here.

It discusses the effects of spanking children on their mental state as adults, their ability to learn, their likelihood of them physically abusing their spouses, the effects on sexual development, and more.

I suspect that if you spank your children you could be offended by the nature of this essay, but it'll do you good to learn what effects spanking is having on your children.

All sources are sited in the article.

Comments? Flames?

[autorank]

1. This poster is correct. Do not give him/her any crap!

I'm to tired to go into it but this (and posting around the clock is, er, 'frowned on' around here..haha) but it is very important to understand.

If you have any questions, get this book. It is a classic by one of the best researchers in family violence in the world.

Beating the Devil Out of Them Murray Strauss

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0765807548/104-4590875-8352747?v=glance

[ezgoingrl]

2. I'm not a spanker.

I have a 10 year old well-adjusted, well-behaved kiddo who has never been spanked. Oh! There have been times when I've thought just spanking him would be easier, but I can't imagine actually laying my hands on my son. He gets explanations and reasoning followed by other consequences like no tv, cleaning the yard etc. Works like a charm.

I find it ironic when I see a mom smacking a kid around saying something like, "Don't. Hit. Your. Sister." That's like saying, you can't hit but I'm bigger so it's ok if I give you a good wack.

[hfojvt]

17. but I play one on TV

I am reminded of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where he imagines that spaceman Spiff is being taken to a torture chamber. He snarls and says to the alien - "I can take anything you can dish out." And the alien (who turns out to be his dad) says: "how about a calm discussion of rational principles?" And in the last panel he is going - "aaauuggh!"

I always wonder about the consequences thing. How can it be enforced? If I am the kid, how can you make me clean the yard or keep me from watching TV? Only through physical force, fear, or respect and affection (that would seem to be conditional love).

To some extent, parental violence can teach the golden rule. You do not like it when I hit you, and your sister does not like it either. But it is probably better to teach that violence should not be the first response.

[wickerwoman]

19. The key is in choosing the consequences.

You're right- you can't physically force a child to do anything he or she doesn't want to do. If you make it about something they *must* do or else, you can't win.

The key is to know what the kid really wants and then threaten to deny him or her of it if they don't cooperate.

The kindergarten where I sometimes sub has its own "ballroom"- one of those big swimming tanks filled with plastic balls. The kids get to go play in it for twenty minutes at the end of the day but if they don't cooperate they have to sit in the classroom and do their homework. Just the threat of being denied their time works like a charm.

And you can keep your kid from watching TV. Pull the cord out. Take away their comic books. Pull out the computer cord. It's not really that tough.

All parental violence taught me is "Your brother is a snitch, exclude him" and "Don't get caught."

[put out]

3. No flame from me. I do not hit people.

And never ever would I hit someone I love; that sort of discipline does not make a person better when you beat them. I would hit a person if they threatened the people I care for.

It would not be spanking.

[XOKCowboy]

4. I deserved every spanking I ever got...

I'm also not physically or mentally abusive, got good grades and lead a reasonably responsible life.

My brother on the other hand thinks that he was physically abused by the very same parents. He also has two kids who are bratty, whiny, manipulative and have no manners whatsoever.

[Iris]

21. I didn't.

My mother has admitted to taking her anger at my dad out on me and my siblings.

[Pithlet]

29. Lack of spanking does not result in whiny, spoiled brats.

Spanking is not the be all and end all of effective parenting. In fact, plenty of bratty children ARE spanked. Often spanking makes behavioral problems even worse.

[Undercover Owl]

5. My parents didn't spank me

I never got spanked or punished physically, ever.

I have also never been in a fist-fight (not even as a kid), never been assaulted by anybody, and have never assaulted anybody.

Do you suppose there might be a connection?

[Old Mouse]

13. More likely a connection

about where you went to school!

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Me too

And you know I never really thought about it until my dad died and I had to stand up at his funeral and make some comments. All I could think of was that he had never spanked me. And boy did I respect and mind him. On the other hand, my mom spanked all of us - a lot. And we still don't respect her half as much as we did my dad.

[TahitiNut]

6. My T-shirt idea ...

SPANKING is for MONKEYS
Children are for Hugging
Don't hit your kids!
:silly:

[Swamp Rat]

9. Very good idea. n/t

[ClearMessage]

20. lol, I like it (n/t)

[bluedonkey]

7. I agree with you

Violence breeds violence.
I never spanked,hit,etc my son and he was always a very well behaved child and an easy to live with teenager.
He knew early on there would be consequences to unacceptable behavior,so did his friends,but still my house was always full of kids.
My mother was never spanked either,she was born in 1922.My father,on the other hand was violently beaten and vowed never to do this to his own children and he never did.
My son just got married to a 'spanked' girl.She said her father's outbursts made her feel humiliated and powerless.
I hope they will continue our tradition of non-violence when they have children.

[UdoKier]

8. I totally agree that spanking is ineffective.

But I do have a problem with some people who have never raised children taking a pious attitude towards parents who do use corporal punishment. I think that when used very infrequently, it probably does the child little if any harm and may make an impression in terms of preventing a repeat of the behavior.

But used frequently (and I would call anything more than once every month or two frequent), I think it starts to have a negative effect and the child seems to act out more.

Also, spanking immediately in response to a behavior seems to put a child in a position of utter helplessness and verges on the cruel. Unless it's a matter of swatting a hand that it about to go into a light socket, I think there should be a little talk before so the child has a chance to stop or make amends for the behavior, and he should never be spanked for something that he doesn't know in advance is a "spankable offense".

But again, I really don't think spanking works well at all. I did it some with my older son when he was smaller, and I felt bad about it, made it less frequent, then finally stopped altogether. I wish I could un-do the spankings I've given up to now and use some other form of discipline instead.

Again, being a parent is unbelievably hard, and I would never preach down to a parent who is not cruel and is doing their best. But I would implore them to study up and seek out other ways of dealing with their children's behavior problems.

[gumby]

10. My favorite scenario about spanking is when

some right-wing radio ranter gets on this subject -- as they inevitably do on a cyclical basis.

The radio host starts ranting about some news item about spanking. S/he will orchestrate the audience into a frenzy about how the Commie-Libs are destroying this country through "if it feels good do it," or another of their stock spanking screeds.

Then the calls begin with one after another testimonial on some variation of "I was whooped and it didn't hurt me."

That's when I scream back to the radio: Oh yes it did hurt you, dumbass! Those whoopings turned you into a right-wing asshole who is hanging there like a big, fat, juicy ripe fruit; just at perfection for manipulation of the most sophmoric right-wing propaganda.

ClearMessage, you might find George Lakoff's "Moral Politics" informative on this sort of subject.

[neebob]

11. Ninety percent spank their kids?!

I find that hard to believe. Where did the number come from?

[Old Mouse]

14. 90% is not in line

with what my pediatrician tell me, but I live in crunchy San Francisco.

[ClearMessage]

23. the 90% figure comes from a national

survey of the American Academy of Pediatrics. That survey was done in 1992, so it might be a bit outdated.

http://www.news-star.com/stories/040798/lfe_spare.html

"The 53,000-member academy acknowledged it doesn't expect to eliminate the popular punishment overnight. About 90 percent of U.S. parents spank and 59 percent of pediatricians said they support the practice, according to a 1992 survey."

[neebob]

30. That surprises me

I didn't spank my son - didn't even really do anything that would fit most people's definition of discipline. What I did do was more a combination of disapproval (though I was very matter of fact about it) and logic. For example, if he threw a tantrum, I'd just be all, "That's not going to get you anywhere. Have fun screaming. Knock yerself out." Without giving more examples, I'd just kind of endure bad behavior and explain why it was ineffective. I treated him like more of a peer, or at least as if he was capable of understanding my position. Being a single parent, my life just didn't work if we were always struggling. I let him have his way a lot. I also stuck to the guns I chose to pick up.

My dad was the one who'd give you something to cry for. Except for a few thwacks on the head from the front seat to the back, the odd poke in the sternum to make a point, and a very memorable slap in the face when I was about 16, he never hit me. He just yelled a lot and made threats. My mother was always trying to get him to back down from some dire punishment he'd decreed. But he never did - and he never, ever apologized, even when he was wrong. He was loud, scary, and very, very controlling. The Supreme Boss of Everything. He gave me massive issues.

I worried that I'd gone too far in the opposite direction, trying not to be like him, and that I was going to pay for it bigtime - that my chickens would come home to roost, as my dad had always said - until my son was 10 or 11. Then he just kind of blossomed.

He's 15 now, and still very willful and autonomous. I still practice disapproval and endurance, though not nearly as often as I used to. There just aren't that many things that will cause the roof to fall in if I let him have his way. Some would say I do the dreaded parent-as-friend thing. Maybe there's a different dynamic when it's just mother and son. Maybe I just got lucky. But I'll tell you what: I couldn't have ordered a better kid. He's respectful, gets good grades, keeps his end of the house clean, does his own laundry, and helps me with too many things to count - and it's as if it's all voluntary, because I never really made him do any of it. Other people are always telling me how great he is. And I am 100-percent confident that I did the right thing.

It isn't even really the discipline (or lack thereof) that I think worked so well. It's more that I treated my son like a person with equal rights whose feelings matter. That I stopped to ask myself if this is really something that I need to control.

Best of all, he seems to enjoy my company. Too bad my dad isn't alive to see it. I think even he would have to admit that my approach worked.

[Pithlet]

28. I find it hard to believe, also.

I live in the heart of the bible belt, and most parents I know here do not spank their kids. I think that as time goes on, fewer parents do.

[ClearMessage]

31. perhaps you mostly associate with more

liberal & enlightened parents?

like I said, the numbers could be outdated. I did find a more current study from 2000 which reports 61% of parents supporting spanking. Not as bad as 90% but still very high.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/10/05/raising.kids/

[Old Mouse]

12. Timely topic

There is a new "tough love" movement starting withing the world of child counseling, as though some are giving up on the time-out method.

I worry the problem these days is not the child, which is only doing his job of being a child, but the extreme pressure parents are under.

My boy is in his terrible twos.

[REP]

15. Must Have Been DIfferent When I Was Growing Up

I suppose I am just a ticking timebomb, waiting to go off, since my parents dared to spank (gasp!).

[ClearMessage]

27. no one is saying that anyone that got

spanked as a kid is going to automatically grow up to be a serial killer.

But study after study shows that it can be a contributing factor to a variety of emotional issues later on in life.

[REP]

37. Ans Those of Us Without Emotional Issues Are What?

In denial? Ticking timebombs?

World of difference between a swat on the ass and a beating.

[ClearMessage]

40. again...

not everyone that got spanked will have emotional problems. It's just an added risk factor.

Consider the smoking debate. Some smoking advocates will say "my mom smoked while she was pregnant with me, and I turned out ok." or "my great uncle smoked and lived to be 85". Does that prove that smoking is not harmful?

You can not compare yourself to how you might have turned out if you weren't spanked. That's where those studies of large control groups come in handy, and they show a very clear picture on the effects of spanking. Statistically, a child that's spanked is more likely, but not guaranteed, to have emotional problems later on in life.

[Peter Frank]

16. Children need discipline.

Spanking generally makes the spanker feel good. Most often, the spanker is the only one who comes out feeling better.

Anyone who believes in spanking should be shot. ;)

[LoveCore]

18. You wanna shoot my mom??

I got spankins... a lot. But, I was a little shit so i don't blame my mom for it. It didn't seem to mess me up any... so I guess it's just a personal choice on the half of the parent(s). I don't really have a stance on it either way.

[Iris]

22. Maybe you were a little shit because you got spanked so much.

Did you read the essay?


Edit: Here's a chunk from the essay that might interest you:


Children that have been reasoned with only, fought again 4 hours later. Children that were subjected to corporal punishment, corporal punishment and reasoning, or non-corporal punishment, waited 5 1/2 to 6 hours before fighting again. Children that were reasoned with and subjected to forced compliance waited 6 1/2 hours before fighting again. The best results were with children that were reasoned with and punished -- it took them 9 1/2 hours before fighting again. That's nearly double the amount of time it took kids that were disciplined in the other ways to repeat their violent behavior.

[TX-RAT]

26. You sure want a lot of people shot.

Speaks volumes.

[DoNotRefill]

33. thanks.

just remember, when you start trying to shoot me for believing differently than you, I WILL shoot back.

[Nikia]

24. Spanking taught me to be scared of my parents

I suppose that yelling and insulting me also contributed to this. The main problem was that punishment was based more on the mood of my parents rather than the severity of the offense although some offenses could almost always lead to spankable and lots of yelling anger. My sister and I became afraid of making our parents angry in any aspect. Our parents divorced at an early age and expected us to be messengers between the two which often resulted in them being angry. This caused us a lot of stress for us.

[Iris]

25. spanking someone because of your own mood is abuse.

Taking out your anger or bad feelings on another living thing is abuse.

[DoNotRefill]

34. there are times....

when spanking is appropriate. Not often, but sometimes. It's not about taking out your anger on them, it's about teaching them that bad things can happen.

We've got a simple 2 step spanking program. First, the parent who decided the kid needs spanked does NOT administer the spanking, the other parent does. Secondly, the other parent must agree that the reported behavior deserves spanking. It's simple, and it prevents abuse.

[REP]

36. Oh, You Monster

I just bet your the kind of horrid fiend who wants to be a parent, and not your kid's bestest friend. Discipline might hurt your kid's self esteem or something!

[DoNotRefill]

45. Nah....

I just come from a family where "spanking" generally involved "hospitalization"...

[Telly Savalas]

46. Discipline need not involve hitting your kid

[DoNotRefill]

47. Discipline need not involve spanking a child all the time....

but in certain circumstances (for instance, when they do something really stupid that raises a real possibility of death or permanent disfigurement) it can be appropriate.

For example: running out into the street when they should be able to know that it's inappropriate.

Again, we're NOT talking about beating the kid...we're talking about the absolute last-ditch parental response, applied judiciously and without anger.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

32. I know exactly how you feel

I wasn't spanked (other than once or twice) but there was a lot of yelling by the step-mom. I was made to feel bad for even the littlest of things, and I became terrified of doing anything that would upset her. I finally stood up for myself as a senior in high school. Man that was a rough year.

I guess I don't feel that it is so much the spanking as the abusive punishment. Verbal abuse is just as bad as physical abuse.

[LoveCore]

35. Very ture...

I know some people who weren't spanked but yelled at and they have HORRIBLE relationships with their parents, something about it seems to carry over even when you're grown. I didn't get spanked but only as a last resort... so I don't think it messed with my psych any.

[retread]

38. We never spanked. Why would a healthy person be physically or mentally

violent to someone they loved?

[The Flaming Red Head]

39. After saying the Columbine shooters needed their asses spanked before hand

And then getting flamed into perpetuity for that one off hand remark,

I have to say, that, you know that was joke, a smart ass comment, right?

Anyone who sees me and my kid (he’s 17) and his friends riding down the street and listening to Mosh knows that kid never got his ass kicked. (not by me anyway)

Actually he never made pipe bombs or stock piled assault rifles either, so he probably didn’t need it.

[skygazer]

42. Okay, just to wade into this and stir the pot a bit

How do you explain all the perfectly well adjusted people over the years who were raised in an environment where spanking was a perfectly accepted form of discipline? I'm neither defending nor disagreeing with your conclusions - I'm simply asking a question. And no, I didn't read the essay.

[ClearMessage]

43. "all the perfectly well adjusted people over the years"

lol, what country do you live in?

All kidding aside, the essay demonstrates that although spanking does not guarantee that the child will grow to become a criminal or drug addict, it is a contributing factor, proportional to the amount of spanking.

Most of the studies cited in the essay do show that light spanking is not as damaging to the child's development as more severe spanking.

[seabeyond]

44. this isnt a tough one, dont believe in spanking, dont spank

to suggest everyone getting spankings over all of history grow up retarded is simply stupid.

anyone doesnt want to spank your child dont. the evidence in these threads inevitably talk about all the people that got spankings. they dont hate their parents. they dont feel it was abuse. they are totally productive, well adujusted adults today

yet anti spanking advocates continually ignore this fact to push their agenda

butt out of other peoples parenting. quit judging. parent like you chose and let others the same respect

[ClearMessage]

48. it's not that simple.

No one is saying that spanking will always result in children becoming mental cases. It's a contributing factor to emotional problems, proportional to the amount of spanking administered.

There are 2 issues here:

First, is spanking bad for kids? Most studies say so. If any study suggests that spanking is good for children, please let me know.

Now, if we agree that spanking has more harmful effects than good on our children, isn't it our duty to educate parents that spank their kids? I'm pretty sure that most spanking parents don't research the issue and decide that they want to spank because it's been proven to be effective. They simply don't know any better.

[seabeyond]

53. well there is a recent study, but i dont have to be told by a study

i can figure it out myself, and see it my self and see from experience. i can only speak for myself and those i have seen a lifetime. those of us spanked, and out of all of us,..........all of us, we were spanked by parents that simply used it for discipline. not to feel better, not to abuse us

the advocates against insist we see it as abuse, regardless of us saying it isnt.

i am so damn tired of the self righteous on all sides telling me what i have to think, who i have to be

it is that simple. if you dont like it dont do it

i dont like it and i dont do with my kids

and no, it is not your place or my place to assume i have thought it out, but the parent that choses it just doesnt know. they need me to tell them. i dont assume this parent "wants" me to tell them. being a mother for 9 years, really tired of every section in society, to assume, i wanted them to tell me how to be a parent. how to be a person. how to be a christian

so for me it is that simple

[Must_B_Free]

49. Anyone try a Spanking / Hotsauce combo?

to really teach them a lesson?

[rainbow4321]

50. Paddling moratorium in Dallas ISD

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/stories/121704dnmetpaddle.d506e.html


The Dallas school board banned paddling in schools at Thursday night's meeting – at least temporarily. Trustees voted to implement a two-month moratorium on corporal punishment to allow administrators to come up with a proposal to ban paddling and provide alternatives to discipline students. Such a proposal would still require broad approval.

The issue has split the board. Mr. Brashear, who supports paddling, accused his colleagues of not properly posting the corporal punishment item on the agenda. An attorney for the district disagreed.

The number of parents in the district who have signed forms allowing their children to be paddled has dwindled. As of last week, 453 parents had given consent, compared with 3,335 last year

Trustee Ken Zornes, who opposes corporal punishment, said it has had permanent harmful effects on children. He said even one child harmed is too many. "How can we take that risk?" Mr. Zornes said.

[SillyGoose]

51. Great post, ClearMessage. I don't spank my son, either.

I started with time outs when he was very young (about 2). When he was 3, his speech therapist taught me a technique that still works today (he is 7). When he is doing something that needs to stop, I count to 3, after 3 I redirect behavior by removing him from the situation completely. I usually only have to say "one" and he stops whatever he is doing. I have also recently started to use some of the "Love and Logic" approaches and find that to be pretty effective as well.

[ClearMessage]

52. good for you (and your son).

Most parents do not bother to research what is the most effective way to raise and discipline their children, even though it's probably the most important thing they'll do in their lifetime.

The whole point of my post is to raise this issue and start an honest debate. I think that if more parents realized that there are better ways to discipline their children, they may not feel like they have to spank them.

[neebob]

54. I tried timeouts

but quickly gave up, realizing I couldn't make them stick without the situation escalating beyond my comfort level. There was always a point where I had to stop.

Maybe my son was just extra strong willed, but I found that just acting like, "Oh, I see you still haven't figured out that that's not going to work," letting him know his behavior was inappropriate, and going about my business until he got over it was the only way to avoid something I wouldn't feel good about.

There were a couple of years where I avoided restaurants and timed my trips to the grocery store to coincide with my son's times with his dad. And if we were out in public and he threw a tantrum I would just grit my teeth, carry him to the car, and buckle him into his car seat with his arms and legs flailing and him screaming, "I'm gonna tell my dad!" It must have worked on Dad's girlfriend.

"Yeah, you do that," I would say, and just drive until the flailing and screaming stopped. If I had a dollar for every time I did that, I could buy us both a very nice dinner.

[NorthernSpy]

55. if you wouldn't hit your pets, why would you hit your kids?

Both pets and kids are at the mercy of their owners; the owner is responsible for the behavior of his "property"; and reasoning with either pets or kids can be difficult, to say the least. And yet people who accept corporal punishment of children as a legitimate parenting "choice" also seem as likely as the rest of us to hate people who hit their animals...

Interesting.

[sweetheart]

56. You smack a biting dog

As a doggie parent, i never ever touch them in anger, but if they
get nippy and take a chomp for any reason, they get a bop on the
nose, and if they really were getting nasty, i grab them and bite
them on the nose myself.

The wolf genes are still in doggies, and even the most docile must
recognize who the big dog (alpha) is, or the household is upside down.

That said, training animal DNA to live in human world, is different
than training a kid, but maybe not.

My maxim in dog training, is to let the dog know that it is NEVER
ok to bite a human... as it can only lead to trouble, if yuor dog
bites someone, and between dogs, untrained, biting is a normal
protocol of dominance.

My parents spanked me, for stupid things, like not following their
rules.. and not for "biting". Had they punished me in kind, i never
would have been spanked. In this regard, am a believer that
punishment must equate to the crime... and i've not met a child that
was violent or hateful... only parents... that the child learns from.

[NorthernSpy]

57. that would be justified as self-defense in any case...

.. regardless of its overall effect -- positive, negative, or neutral -- on discipline.

I agree with you that if physical coercion of children were limited to such circumstances, it would largely disappear.