The Social Security Scam of bush: In a nutshell...

[rasputin1952]

get out your calculators...:)

Say you made $30,000 last year, and paid 7.5%, or about $2500 into SS and Medicaid for one year. If, (and I hope this doesn't happen), you passed away and were married, or had children they would get survivor benefits which could exceed $1500 a month, or approx $18,000 a year to help your family. $18,000-$2500=$15,500 net gain. HOLY CRAP...
quite the 'investment'!

If you don't die, and retire, that $2500(+/-) still gives you one hell of a return on your investment. Let's say you get $800 a month, still equals $9600 a year for your yearly 'investment' of $2500. These numbers are general in scope, and everyone will be slightly different, but you should get the picture.

All of the SS changes are designed to get corporate $ back to corp's!

Let's say you "saved" 2% and only paid 5.5% into SS, your yearly "savings" is approx: $950 which you can now 'invest'; that is about $80 a month under the bush plan. That $950, is for the YEAR! But if you take a corp that 'saves' 2% and multiply that $950, x the # of employees, the savings can be astronomical. You get $950, the corp gets $950,000 if they have 1000 employees...and you lose out on the $950+, in the future when you collect! If you invest your $950 a year in the market...you better figure on one hell of a stock to make up for what you lost in SS benefits.

Now...what if the Market tanks...which it will do, because it is cyclical, it cannot go up and never come down. Now, you've lost a fistful of $, and have virtually no SS to count on. Let's not forget that this scam will cost well over $1 Trillion dollars to implement, and a decrease in funding. We, as Americans, will not let our fellow citizens go to hell like that, and will bail them out. So we pay anyway, and now, more than before! Not only that...but the long dead minions of the administration, don't pay anything, because our CHILDREN are paying for it. Now THERE is a legacy to be proud of.

IF, and that is a HUGE if, Congress can keep its hands out of the till, and quit covering debt w/SS funds, the SS and Medicare systems would build up very quickly, and be out of the hole.

So Smoke and Mirrors are bush's cries for reform...He's paying for part of his tax cuts w/OUR hard earned cash...the same cash he said belonged to US! Don't let this man forget that. He is messing with the money he said was YOURS, that which you are putting into the system. It is OUR money that is being pulled out of the SS Fund to ensure that the tax cuts are upheld. You get nothing!

One last thing; the people who are pushing this are the exceptionally rich. They do not NEED SS, but how many of you ever heard of a wealthy individual returning their check?

This will impact those of us who have toiled our entire lives to make this country great, while wealthy individuals, that would keel over in a heartbeat if they ever really had to work, will take millions more in investments made in their names, with money you count on in the future. They are gaining by the sweat of honest American workers, they are thieves. Do you think you have a pension plan? That is being 'invested' as I write this. Guaranteed pensions are being looted by corporations, and the money WILL NOT be replaced. How soon we forget the Savings and Loan fiasco; we cannot allow this to happen again.

Get up and write your Congress Critters! DO NOT expect others to do it. This is part of your future...fight for it. Post here all you want....BUT GET OUT AND DO SOMETHING FIRST!!!!!


Lay THAT on the Reformation Squad!!!!!!!

[Liberty Belle]

1. kick! Good post.

[tridim]

2. It boils down very simply to this..

Instead of paying into a secure retirement fund, you instead give your money to Bush's friends to play with.

I pulled all my 401k money out of the market specifically because I don't trust corporations any longer. Mainly because of Enron.

[Sugarbleus]

18. A law MUST be passed to keep the SSA trust fund CLOSED to

borrowing...from ANY for ANY congressional/governemntal adventure/need. Period.

[pa28]

3. The savings and loan fiasco.

That's what happened when you let people with a financial interest in the outcome write the law. It's about to happen again on a much larger scale.

You are so correct that the people who will need it most are, well, screwed.

Some 40 year old guy working some job that pays $40,000 who voted for Bush. Who is he gonna blame when he finds himself living a third-world lifestyle?

[zann725]

19. And all the people who UNexpectedly end up Disabled and need SSDI income

A lot of people DO end up needing it, though they never planned on it.

Yet the media and the lawmakers only ever seem to talk about retirement age people collecting SS. And our Medicare comes out of our SS income.

It's a sin what they're proposing. If only FDR's ghost would scare the bejeezus out of Bush, and wake him up 'literally' one day in the WH.

[Swamp Rat]

4. kick

:kick:

[flordehinojos]

5. Did you know that FEDERAL EMPLOYEES don't pay social security?

They pay into a Federal Retirement Fund--but not into social security.
Hasn't Poppy Bush been a FEDERAL EMPLOYEE all of his life (who would not have needed social security for his survival after he was retired anyhow) so, what should he understand about social security on two counts anyhow, if he never paid into it and he never needed to live on.

And, I wonder what his little bastards would get from social security when they retire (should social security still be in existence) but, whatever they might get would be crapola to them...since they'd have all that Carlysle and silver coins of war profits in their pockets.

little bastards, war profiteers, evildoers ... i wonder how many of those who voted for the bushes are just about now beginning to regret their moralistic vote?

[whistle]

7. How does the Federal Retirement Fund work and who...

...administrates that fund?

[flordehinojos]

12. I am not sure ... I will try to find out and post whatever I find out a

little later.

[flordehinojos]

14. PREVIOUS REPLY UPDATE: Federal Pensions are manage by the Federal Civil

Service. Also, when Reagan was President he passed a law, or made a ruling, stating that any Federal employees who through, previous or post Federal employment, were entitled to receive any Social Security Retirement benefits ... those Social Security Retirement Benefits would be reduced by 40%...

Even back then they were stealing people's money and showing off their great COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATISM!

[rasputin1952]

15. Reagan and his evil minions laid the ground work for the new-age

thieves. He was a Grade B actor, and a failure as a president. Only Bush I, and the current idiot in the WH, have worse records...3 GOP pieces of crap, and people still haven't learned...:grr:

[flordehinojos]

25. i so agree with you ...

either people are very shallow (and do not make use of their ability to think), or they are very greedy and are goaded into believing that the political and economic policies of these three idiots have and can make their lives better.

i think that about the only thing that will open people's eyes up will be something akin to personal financial ruination...as it did with the people of ENRON who lost their entire life's savings.

or ... being thrown in jail, or prosecuted for expressing any views that are considered contrary to the bush idiots...

amazingly, people learn from hard knocks, but mostly from their own personal hard kocks. Evidently not enough have been knocked already.

[whistle]

6. Social Security are tax free funds correct...

...and the employer pays a slightly higher percentage than the individual does (7.65% by employer and 7.5% by employee). The SS payment is capped at somewhere around $84,900.00. Medicare is a separate deduction which is based on 1.5% of wages and has no cap.

What if social security had no cap and was paid on all earned and unearned income (including: interest, dividends, capital gains). That would lower the amount required from wage earners significantly and would take away this terrible burden from our future workers. Privatizing the fund only introduces additional administrative costs and extracts fees and profits from the private fund managers. It is nothing but a 401K that becomes a 101K as I see it.

[rasputin1952]

8. I was making my point in the simplest of terms. SS is complicated,

but the bottom line people look at, is what will they get when they retire/become disabled/survivor benefits. Not much else matters to the average Joe.

My figures were approximate, as I did not sit down and go into the actual tables. But SS benefits are taxable, thanks to Reagan, another remarkably wealthy individual who really had no 'need' to collect SS, but did anyway from previous employment. Same w/all of the others who did something other than Fed/State service, which is just about anyone. Also, if you are self employed, or desire to receive benefits in the future and you are not paying into the SS Fund through an employer, you can elect to send some 15% of your earnings into he fund to ensure you get payments later. So, @ $30,000 your 15% would be approx $4500. If you received a check each month, for say $800, you would receive $9600 per annum. You have effectively DOUBLED(+) your initial drop in the bucket. Can anyone show me a better investment?

BTW, That $800 per month is for the rest of your life, even after you have ceased to put money into the SS Fund. After your initial qualification, you could receive that $800 per month for 10-20 years, and the survivor benefits to your spouse would continue w/o further additions. to privatize any of this would be a disaster for those who middle to lower class. Most of us don't have millions to fall back on. SS ensures an income after retirement/disability/survivorship; I cannot understand why anyone would want to 'junk' the program. The neo-con ideology thinks this is a Socialist item. I think it is Humanitarian, and we should be telling people that; every day until this scam is broken!

There are rules, but they are easy to get from The SS Admin. But I prefer to keep this relatively simple, and show American WORKERS what they will lose under this idiotic scheme of the administration. That is where action will be found, with he people. But they have to know they will lose under bush. Simplicity is the key; when they see money drained directly from their pockets, they will see this for what it is....Theft on a massive scale.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

10. You've nailed it Friend.....

"Theft on a massive scale." If there wasn't money to be stolen they would have no interest in it. It seems to me the rePubs were bitching a while back about how SS was broke and needed fixing.
Broke my ass :mad:
The bastards can't wait to a) relieve corporate America from their 'burden' of contributiong to SS and b) steal what is already there.......

[rasputin1952]

13. This scam is the greatest 'gift' the bush maladministration has ever given

us. It is imperative that this get out and be pounced upon by all thinking people throughout the country.

The S&L fiasco was nothing compared to what this will become if implemented. bush believes the American people are stupid enough to go w/this; it is time to show him, and his evil little minions, that WE, the citizens of this nation control the destiny of this nation. If we remain silent...we will all, Progressive/Conservative; L/R Wing; Centrist, whatever...We MUST stop this; and not allow this horrid group of thieves to continue on this mission of destruction.

I urge everyone to e-mail, write, or call their elected officials and put a stop to this Grandest Scheme of Theft of our nations riches, and prevent the impoverishmnet of millions of men and women that have worked to make this country great: the American Citizenry.

[radwriter0555]

9. The scam is that the bankers walk away with all your money, then it gets

reimbursed BY you, since it's GOVERNMENT BACKED, so YOU get to pay TWICE while bush's banker pals get really really rich.

Sound familiar?

Think of Bush/Reagan's Savings & Loan scam that did the same thing.

Think SILVERADO.

[jarab]

11. kick ! n/t

...O...

[KingLarryXVII]

16. Went about it all wrong....

lets take your $30,000 a year example...

Now this is assuming the same salary for the entire length of your career but lets look at working from 24 to 64 to keep things simple...

Lets put that $2250 (to be more exact than the 2500, i know you were just estimating) in an account at 5% interest. Do some basic algebra,

1.05^40 = 7.04 * 2250 = $15840 from you first years earnings, now we take the next year...

1.05^39 = 6.70 * 2250 = $15085, thats over $30,000, an additional years salary, from just your first 2 years of work, a little better than $19,200 (2 years on SS).

Now do all the math out and that $2250 yearly investment turns into a hefty $285,389.47

Lets divide that by 9600

$285,389 / $9600 = 29.72 or about 30 years

Now that means if you live past the ripe old age of 94, then Social security is a good investment. But when the average lifespan is in the seventies (maybe eighties for women now, I'm not looking this up) then for most people this is not the best investment for them.

This is with a 5% interest rate. Of course you could go for a higher interest rate for a little more risk, but i went with a low rate to prove that you can stay at a very low risk level and still make more than SS could ever give you.

[rasputin1952]

27. You miss a point though....SS is only based on the last 3 years you worked

Even if you did save for a period of years, and at 5% in the bank...at 94 who cares? If you are in that .001% that lives to 94, what good is the cash anway!

I am saying...that if you take $30,000 for the last 3 years before you retire, in less than a year, you get back what you put in for those 3 years. If you invest your piddling $950 per annum for 3 years, you get zilch compared to what you will get over the, (hopefully) long life you will have.

I have no problem making sure, that with my contibutions now, the elderly, the infirm, and the survivors, can actually try to survive on what they get. When I made 'good' money, during the Clinton years, I put a lot of it into charity, to help some more.

Like I said earlier...I don't see any of the 'upper class' returning their retirement checks to the gov't. After all, many of them made money off of Enron, the S&L deal, and robbing the pensions of those that really work anyway...Now, they see another cash cow at the expense of the citizenry, including you. If the 'elites' return their checks to the fund...I'll listen to 'reform'. But I will never allow the bush admin to take it away from those that have a need for it w/o a fight.

[KingLarryXVII]

34. *sigh* you missed the point

I was saying that most dont live to 94. You pay into SS youre whole life, not just the last 3 years. If you took that money they was payed into SS every year and put it in a bank account at 5% interest, by the time you retire you will have a lot more than you would ever make with social security. My numbers showed that, unless you DID live to 94 then you are better off with social security. So for the other 99.999% social security is not making as much for them as simple investment could be.

[rasputin1952]

38. Why not invest and go with SS?

Why is it that one must go down to do the other?

It is not a question of how long one lives, or what they put into SS; it is a simple fact, that it is a program that will pay yeo when you retire/become disabled/die(for survivors). Why is that 'bad'?

Why can't people do both, save/invest and count on SS?

Why would anyone deny some of the less fortunate to be placed in a more severe bind? What if the cashis not there to invest/save? At least there is something for these people to depend on.

That is not 'socialism' or any other jingoistic phrase the bush admin can come up with...it is Humantarian. I confounds me that people cannot see that...:(

[BillZBubb]

39. Your "numbers" ARE BULLSHIT!!!!

Find me one bank that pays 5% interest! And even if you could guarantee getting that for your working lifetime, that is nominal interest. It doesn't account for inflation. Your real return would be LESS than Social Security will pay.

Social Security remains a damn good, but conservative retirement/insurance policy. And that's just what it should be.

[KingLarryXVII]

40. And thats where SS is failing

with the increasing life spans of people, social security benefits are going to end up dropping. Now, in addition to inflation the benefits are
losing value. Sure its working for now, but in 10 years its not going to be nearly the same story. It's time to do something about it instead of sitting back and crying about how its working. When SS was founded, 12 people payed for the social security of a single person. I do agree that this is a quite decent investment. But when its down to 3 people paying for one as it is nowadays, that means you are only recieving 30% of a living wage salary. Even then it manages to stay resonably viable. The problem comes in as the 'baby boomers' start to retire. Its expected drop down to below 2 people paying for one.
As for my numbers being 'bullshit' it also didnt include salary increases and various other things, and it only accounted for 7.5%. Now add to that the other 7% that the company is currently paying, and whatever you are currently investing and it can quadruple those numbers. 5% is a easily attainable interest rate, maybe you should look into your finances instead of throwing it at a government bueacracy to take care of.

[bleedingheart]

50. People don't pay into it their whole lives...

My guess is that most people start earning a living around 18..on average. Then there are those who enter the workforce at around 22...

I think this whole privatization thing is a scam and I personally will opt out.

I already invest 10% of my income into the stock market...why put even more?? I like a diverse portfolio with some things like social security being secure.

[sandnsea]

42. DEDUCT insurance premiums...

that would give the same benefits for surviving family or disability as one gets now. There goes your $2500.

[Sugarbleus]

17. SUPERB Rally piece!!

I've already written to my house rep. Have to keep it up though; those critters usually listen to Lobbyists first and us last.

I listened to a bobble head on C-span yesterday (Leanne Abdnor, Women for Social Security Choice). She spewed on about the "wisdom" of citizens investing their SSA...*yawn*

These think-tankers are utterly confussed themselves; it's such a JOKE.

There was one thing that stood out in my mind about their formula: They talk about needing to "cover" SSA with trillions of $$ in the future if we don't "do something" now....... Most of their scheme is crap, but I"m thinking what the hell, these nerds want to "borrow" trillions of dollars to "reform" the program NOW. Why borrow and add to debt for a program that isn't broken yet?! If they want to borrow, and I hope they do not, then borrow TO PAY US BACK for what they looted over time and leave the program in place as is!

The "formulas" they come up with are a pure Cluster*uck! NONE of it makes any sense at all. People who earn enough to have some disposable income already invest in 401ks and other funds on the side. The SSA is there for JUST IN CASE you loose your ass!

BTW: Henry Aaron, of the Brookings Institute was also on C-span that day. He is adamant about leaving SSA ALONE!

[rasputin1952]

28. The whole neo-con agenda about 'reform' is really destruction of SS

They could not care less about it surviving. They have this mindset that everyone should be accountable for what ever happens to them. The same goes for "tort reform". They use Medical lawsuits as a rally point, but an unbelievably few people get "million dollar settlements" and those are almost always knocked down later on appeal. Point is, if they got rid of lousy doctors, maybe there would be less to sue about!

But I digress. IF the congress critters kept their mitts out of the fund...it would be solvent far into the future. They didn't, now they call it a crisis. The CRISIS is bush pushing this idiocy. Millions will lose, while a few will gain more millions/billions. It is a scam, plain and simple. For those who want to save, take a few hundred and put it in the bank. That is not a difficult concept. Put it in the market, again, not a difficult concept. Why they don't do it now is beyond me...:shrug:

Here is an point the masses are not given...say 7.5% is put in by the employee, it is matched by another 7.5% by the employer...not bad, to make sure you get a half-way decent return if you live to retire...:)
If you don't, at least your spouse gets a stipend to help keep him/her alive. What do you get if the bush cabal destroys SS?

People need to see that this program works, if it is left to the devices in place. A few 'tweaks' might not hurt, but not an overhaul to destroy it.

[rasputin1952]

32. SS is a good investment, just as you say...covering your butt when all

else fails!...:)

Keep writing/calling those Critters. In the end, Lobyists don't elect them, WE do. We have to make sure they know it!!!!...:D

[VOX]

20. Late-night kick for an excelent post...

Thanks, rasputin1952 -- and we do indeed have to write/e-mail/phone our public servants on this, **absolutely**.

[TWiley]

21. He is trying to outdo his brothers S & L embezzlement scheme.

I think he raked the taxpayers over the coals for around 40 billion. If you look at the "morals" of the bushwad family as expressed in their potentially criminal actions, then they would have a very skewed set of values.

[Disturbed]

22. An uphill fight.

The Corps., Media, Wall Street and Fascists are all for this thievery. Dems in Congress are powerless. The Propoganda Machine is already on full tilt boogie promoting this Scam.

[TWiley]

24. I really feel that our first priority should be the 1st Ammendment.

The truth will never get out if the attacks on reporters who question the new reich are not stopped.

Bushwad's strategy from the beginning has been simple. Keep hammering the public with fucked up ideas and initiatives and it will divide those who are paying attention.

That is because a collective effort behind 1 cause is much greater than splitting the progressives into 100 groups, each looking out for their specific area of concern.

Some general categories:

Social security
The war in Afganistan
The war in Iraq
The pending war in Iran
Larceny by conversion - Using wars and taxpayer $ to enrich a few
The looming trade war
The growing deficit
The robbing of worthwhile social programs
Election fraud in 2000 and 2004
Redistricting voter precincts
The creation of a Theocratic Society
Legalizing discrimination
The sales of America to China through Government spending.
Using homeland security to create the new American STAZI
Political hijacking of religion
The appointment of Fascist Judges
The ongoing attack on the media

And these are only a few off the top of my head.
They have been forcing changes so fast that there is no time to respond to any of them. It was a bum's rush for the whitehouse, and now the bum's rush for America's wealth continues.

I believe these stories would be reported if the whitehouse did not threaten and manipulate the news media.

[rasputin1952]

33. I agree 100% about the spinelessness of the media...

Every time they have held bush's feet to the fire, he has caved in. But they do not keep at it....Nail it home.

bush is a blathering idiot, that is why he does not do unscripted press conferences. Heck...even when they are scripted he's a blathering idiot!

When the Press gets a hold of him, they have a field day...they need to pressure McClellan and the rest of bush's minions into producing the cretin...:) Let the press have at him, they are stirring once again...we can kick them awake if we hound them. Remember, the WH Press Corps is the plum of every journalists life...but they have a duty to keep the pressure on, and not let this fool get away w/any more garbage. I'd still be asking about WMD's and Osama if I were in the WH Press Corps...Fire in the belly makes the Corps a force to be reckoned with, but they have grown slovenly and lazy...taking their cues from bush himself...Never before have we had such an inept and lazy president. The Press should be having a field day ripping him to shreds...:)

[rasputin1952]

30. Sure it is an "up-hill fight"...but not ALL of the media is on bush's side

and if people call/e-mail the media w/our concerns, we can turn the tide. All of Congress is not w/bush either, I've already called both Senator's Offices in Nebraska; the reuslts:

Ben Nelson (D): Woman answering phone understood my concern, and was entering my comments in computer for Sen Nelson to see. She was very helpful and seemed geuinely interested in my concern. Pleasant experience ...)

Chuck Hagel (R): Woman answering phone was distant an made many excuses as I tried to explain my position. At one point, she was downright hostile, telling me that Congress was not in session, so why should I worry now? Not a good idea on her part...:(
I deliberately slowed down so she could undersatand that I was a concerned citizen, and had no problem with paying into SS. I had no problem paying my taxes; but, if I had a Senator that was aloof on this iissue, and worried more about a Constitutional Amendment about Gay Marriage or Flag burning. I would be more than happy to ensure the people of Nebraska knew that Sen Hagel could not care less about our elderly or our economy, but was more worried about what went on in people's bedrooms, rather than if they could survive a cold winter, eat of get medical care. I got her attention. But all in all, it was an unpleaseant experience.

Now...if everyone who reads this, calls their Congress Critters, and tells everyone they know to do the same, as well as get in touch with the local and other media outlets, we can have an imnpact before this horror gets any further. We all have pc's and can innundate the WH, Congress, and the media with our concerns. But we must act!

Thank you...:)

[shayes51]

23. After the Bush Stock Market Bust,

I was counting on my Social Security. What a pitiful president he is!

[KingLarryXVII]

26. *sigh*

did none of you even read my post? It's there in black and White, SS returns much less than a simple 5% interest on that some money could (and thats assuming your company dropped the other 7% from your salaary, returns are twice that if this is included.

[rasputin1952]

29. I did read your post, and responded...

if you want to invest your money, be my guest. With SS, you are already making an investment, and it pays good dividends.

I am not against personal savings/investment at all. I just think people should be allowed to do both. I cannot understand why people would toss away a guaranteed income in the future, for something that might, and will most likely go bust over several cycles. With SS, you get that guaranteed income...add your personal savings/investing to that, and you should do well. But if you bust out, at least SS will hopefully keep you alive in your "Golden Years".


:)

[JanMichael]

31. My guess is that your friend doesn't grasp the "big picture" with SS.

Nice effort though:-)

[KingLarryXVII]

35. I posted that before you responded....

And putting money in the bank is fail-safe and has been since the reforms after the great depression. It will not 'go bust after several cycles' and has much better returns than SS. Social security is hardly 'guaranteed income'. Its a mandatory investment made over the course of your career that results in very poor returns, which change depending on how old you live to be. If you die soon after retiring, you lose a big chunk of your 'investment' instead of it being passed to your children to use. Now if you DO live to the point where social security starts paying off, good for you. But I would rather know how much money i would have availible to spend rather than recieving it in small parts that may even end in a net loss for me depending on when i die.

[idiosyncratic]

36. Social Security also pays if you become disabled

What if you become disabled at the age of 31? You have only been saving money in the bank for ten years. How long will that savings last.

Social Security Disability will continue paying long after your savings have disappeared . . .

[rasputin1952]

37. I am not trying to say you can't invest what you want...

Go ahead, it makes little difference to me. But the SS system is a backup as well. If you invest, and take a dive, you still have something. If you die, your spouse/offspring have something to fall back on. I cannot fathom where people think this is a "bad" idea.

As I've stated several times, people should invest/save what they want. What is the difference in saving in SS and saving in a bank acct? And, if you die, both are there for helping the survivors to make ends meet. Why would anyone be against this?

If you are alone, and there are no beneficiaries under the SS system for the money to go to, why should one care anyway, they are dead?

I know that seems simplistic; dead = not caring anymore, but it is true and a case of bottom line reality. Besides, you get the opportunity to aid others from your previous contributions into the system. If you die, and have no heirs/will and your cash is in the bank...the state you live in gets it. If your cash is in the market, someone else gets it, where is there justification in that.

Bottom line, invest what you have in anything you desire...that $950 at $80 a month per annum will not make you a rich person. In fact, it may drag you into the sewer when the thieves get done with it. Look what happened in the S&L situation....if it were not for the FDIC, and working Americans, there would have been hundreds of thousands tossed out onto the street; many of them that had been investing in the S&L's for 40+ years.

These people are thieves, and they want your money. My suggestion is to look very closely at what they are doing. If you just follow bush's plan, you will be a cardboard box soon, blaming everyone else but yourself for what happened. People are like that...:(

[sandnsea]

43. It's a moral responsibility to the elderly

It is NOT a retirment account and never has been. It is one generations responsibility to care for the one that went before; and widows and their children, and the disabled. Good Christian values.

[KingLarryXVII]

45. ...

but it isnt worth anything when its forced upon everyone. Im a strong believer in voluntary charity. If someone is not willing to help the poor then thats their loss.

The basic fact of the matter is that it IS a retirement account, and always has been. Thats why it was set up and thats how it continues today. FDR didnt propose it as a way for the new generation to hold up the old, he made it so the old keep paying into the economy instead of falling off the economic spectrum and no longer helping. It was just a ploy to get us out of the great depression (Which it and the other programs did well) but now it is an old system that cant hold its own and cant even live up the basics of how it was originally planned.

[rasputin1952]

47. That is patently untrue, SS can be there for what it was designed for...

and has proven its worth since its inception.

What I find baffling, is that you, and others that think like you do, believe that this is an inherently "bad" program. You have paid into it, you will benefit from it.

Once again I ask you, why can't individual saving/investing co-exist with SS? Why must SS perish, you will get a return on your money?

Thanks in advance, for a hopefully concise answer...:)

[pinto]

41. national wealth redistribution and the role of government are the two

key points, I think.

Conservatives are sure quick to use the dreaded "s word", socialism, when denouncing any use of federal influence on the well being of low income members of our society. Yet, give the upper income folks a tax break, redistributing federal funds for their well being, and it is hailed as "limiting the role of big government".

No, there is no limiting the role of government going on here, it's a redistribution of federal priorities and, yes, funds, to benefit upper income citizens and their interests.

Cut programs to pay for tax breaks. There's no other way to do it, no matter how it's spun.

And that brings up the second point. The role of the federal government is clearly to help support the health and well being of all. Surely, the health and well being of the elderly, the retired, the disabled and their dependents is an appropriate use of federal funds.

Call it National Security and we can all get behind it (sarcasm).

Call it what you will, we all have a stake in this debate.

Thanks for the great post, Ras.

[KingLarryXVII]

46. the role of the government

is not the health of all. All the government was meant to be was a central body to manage the armed forces, interstate relations, and foriegn relations. It was never meant to directly support the people. If states want to do such a thing, though i would be against it, it is well within their powers, but i do not think it is the governments place to be redistributing wealth ( by the waycutting taxes isnt redistributing wealth to the rich, how can you redistribute money to them that they already had? Redistribution is when you take money from one sector and pass it to another that previously did not have it)

[rasputin1952]

48. Very poor argument there. If a 'group' can get your money, and the money

of others, they will do it. You will not lose your 'wealth', you will lose your ability to gain wealth, because you will be put into poverty if these thieves get a hold of your savings!

Re-distribution of wealth can easily be described, as the wealth of this nation being grabbed by the few that have the wealth and power to TAKE it from you and I.

Redistribution is simply taking from some and giving it to others...How much is too much? I don't know, but I do know that if I had billions of dollars, and I knew that some of my fellow citizens were freezing, or hungry or needed clothing or a job...I would ensure they got those items. I am not rich, I am constantly broke, but I am not complaining about being poor...I am trying to keep others from being smashed into the ground and ripped to shreds by greedy minions of a selfish and corrupt administration. I call it the way I see it, and I always will. Truth cannot be denied. It can be covered over, it can be hidden, it can be twisted.....but it cannot be denied.

[pinto]

49. taxation is, by definition, redistribution of money and a govt role.

Hence the Revolutionary era rallying cry: "No taxation without representation". And our representative government has allocated those funds to a broad array of federal programs, including Defense, State, Health and Human Services, HUD etc.

Redistribution in the guise of tax cuts, defunding Social Security and continued deficit borrowing, is a sleight of hand manipulation of the federal budget and the federal government's established responsibilities in the allocation of funds.

[rasputin1952]

44. As I looked over these posts again, I am reminded of what Novak

calls "Class Warfare", and he does it with great scorn. He should, if this actually goes through, there will be "Class Warfare" and Novak and his fellow millionaires will be on the losing side. To avoid that we must move with haste.

The vast change in wealth for this nation has benefitted the already wealthy. For all of the talk about 'redistribution of wealth', it has already occured, as the wealthy and extremely wealthy have had the greatest increase in more wealth than any previous generation in our history.

To top it all off, they have done nothing to 'earn' this windfall, it was given to them by the Republicans, without the least bit of shame. Those of us that work, that produce and service things in this nation, have been left by the wayside with empty promises of 'trickle down' economic bliss. For those that voted for these people, they will soon learn that they have merely handed over not only thier safety and security, but their wallets as well.

We, the citizens of this nation must stand up and stop this, we must educate people as to what is really happening, or we shall all go into the Dark Ages together; fiefdoms will arise and there will be nothing left, except to work for an abysmal wage, and be forever beholding to a few people of vast resources.

These people are robbing the nation blind, and few of us are seeing the truth. Once again, let us all work together, and ensure the Press, Congress and the population knows that they are victims here.