Worst Moment In American History Perpetrated By Americans....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Poll question: Worst Moment In American History Perpetrated By Americans....

[x-g.o.p.er]

1. Dropping the Atomic bomb....

was right in 1945, it's right today, and it will still be right 100 years from now.

Japan started the war in the Pacific. We ended it.

Imprisoning American citizens based on their ancestry was flat out wrong.

[IronLionZion]

14. exactly, otherwise the war would have gone on

and who knows how many more would have suffered? The world needed the war to end.

[bvar22]

17. Many people disagree with you.

You have stated an opinion based on a hypothetical question. You are entitled to do so.
I disagree with you, as do many high ranking military field officers active in the Pacific War.

[Kitka]

21. As do I. As do many survivors of the bomb and the families of those killed

[MrModerate]

44. I've read a bit on this and . . .

The anti-bomb folks generally hang their argument on two hooks: 1) the bomb was too horrible, period, and 2) the Japanese government was shaky and would have toppled before we had to invade anyway.

I'll give them 1), although I don't think anyone really had an emotional grasp on how horrible it was.

I don't go with 2), however. I think the military would have assassinated Hirohito if he'd tried to surrender before the bombs fell. Also, despite our traditionally high-quality intelligence services' best info (ahem), Truman didn't believe they'd fold, and he didn't want to have the blood of hundreds of thousands of US and upwards of a million Japanese civilian casualties on his hands.

Primarily, though, I don't think people really knew -- at the time -- what we had in this new bomb.

[TyeDye75]

28. I gotta agree too. nt/

[Kitka]

22. Huh. So it's justified because it ended a war that country started.

No, a war that country's government started. Punish the people for the government's mistakes? So would it be justified if somehow Iraq did that to our civilians and said, 'hey - they started the war, we ended it"? Bad logic there. Have you ever seen what those bombs did to the people there? I have. That kind of brutality is NEVER justifiable.

[bpilgrim]

26. it's the SAME logic UBL and all TERRORIST use

it's what they used to justify attacking civilians on 911

and, unfortunately, that very same philosophy is even promoted on DU unabashedly.

peace

[Swamp Rat]

30. Yep

[MrModerate]

46. Is there such a thing as a "Good War?"

-- Probably not.

However, trying to separate a country's government starting a war and a country's people starting it is not doable.

I suppose you can have a war-fighting strategy that targets the leadership, but I've never seen that work so far.

George Bush started the Iraq war, but he ain't fighting it -- our people are.

Saddam Hussein is a monster, and tens of thousands of his countrymen supported his regime actively (as opposed to those who merely acquiesced).

Hirohito was a weak fool, who walk into world war step by step, led by his wacko military. But millions of Japanese fought the war -- with great energy and pride.

It's a messy business.

[x-g.o.p.er]

57. In a nutshell,

Yes. You fight a war to win it, and to win it you inflict as much damage upon the enmemy (and yes, the civilians, which were a part of the Japanese culture, were the enemy...they worked in the factories or the farms that made the weapons of war or the food their armies consumed) while saving as many of yours as possible.

Truman would have been crucified if he had gone ahead with an invasion of Japan, which would have cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of American casualties, and the American public found out about a weapon that would have ended the war without an invasion, but we didn't use it. Because it was really, really, bad.

War sucks. Every weapon used that kills is really, really, bad. But my grandfather, who was slated to be in the invasion of Japan, thought the world of Truman because of the decision he made.

Quite frankly, if the shoe had been on the other foot and Japan (or Germany) would've had the ability to use an atomic weapon an an American city, they would have.

[bpilgrim]

25. no military leader in theater at that time agree's with that assesment.

we NUKED a defeated, trying to SURRENDER nations cities filled with CIVILIANS, men, women, children, young and old, TWICE.

it was our first SHOCK-n-AWE to the WORLD.

* In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:

(T)he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .

(I)n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. (THE DECISION, p. 3.)

more...
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

hiroshima is the 2nd most horrid word in the american lexicon succeeded only by NAGASAKI - kurt vonnegut

[leesa]

50. We only dropped the bomb as a show of power to Russia

The Japanese were in the process of surrender. We also wanted to try out our new toy!

[Lenape85]

2. Tie between Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee, but I am biased

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Wounded Knee Was Worse IMHO

because by then most right thinking people had come to realize the crimes we committed against the Indian as he was known at the time...

[Yupster]

54. also voted Wounded Knee

was glad it was on the list.

Just completely unjustified. The Indians were starving and coming in to surrender. Chief Bigfoot was ill, friendly, and was flying an American Flag. Just the worst of the worst.

[okasha]

38. So am I,

so I'm going to vote Trail of Tears, etc. to include the general practice of US genocide against Native Americans.

Okasha (Eastern Band Tsalagi)

[gottaB]

48. In my mind it stands for the whole genocide, too

I think the passage of the Indian Removal Act was the lowest point in our history.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. The Philippines

Our first excursion into Imperialism....

Damn, Unfortunately we have too many to pick from. You brought up several good choices.

How about the killing of over 100,000 Iraqi citizens?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. I Forgot The Phillipines..

but our occupation of the Phillipines was benign compared to the Spanish and later the Japanese occupation...

[Spiffarino]

5. Slavery

...for nearly 400 years of agony, poverty, desolation, and division.

[imenja]

24. yes, should be reworded to say simply "slavery"

rather than the 1619 auction at Jamestown.

[susanna]

6. Self-deleted.

All are horrific.

I'd add "re-selecting W."

[imenja]

7. First "slaves" were actually indentured servants

The first Africans bought from the Dutch slaving ship entered the English colonies as indentured servants. The Dutch, of course, had taken them as slaves, but slavery as we came to understand it developed over the course of the 17th century in Virginia. In those early years, blacks held indenture contracts over whites and vice versa. One black landowner--who may have come on that very slaving vessel--was named Anthony Johnson. He held indenture contracts over whites and a court even returned a white servant to him after the man had fled to a neighboring property. Subsequent generations of Africans and African-Americans would face a far more difficult life as slavery developed as a permanent racialized institution over the course of the 17th century. The first episode of the PBS "Africans in America" series chronicles this fairly well.
My point here is the act of buying those Africans at Jamestown in 1619 would not be nearly as bad as the institution that would become entrenched in American society over the next two and a half centuries.

[RBHam]

8. What about 9-11?

I think this updated version of 'operation northwoods' is without doubt the most venal, cynical, Machiavellian, Hitlerian criminal act ever perpertrated by an elite coterie of oligarchs on their own citizens and, indeed, the world....


the catalyst that may bring about the last, final conflict...

[musette_sf]

56. 9/11/01 should definitely be in the poll

In memory of
Juan Cisneros
2/16/77 - 9/11/01

[idiosyncratic]

9. It is hard to decide, but the Japanese Internment really gets me

because I never learned about that in school or later on in college.

When I finally learned about the internment camps, after moving to California, my first reaction was, "That can't be true. I did not learn about it in history classes."

I actually trusted the education I got. Silly me . . .

I read a book about the Trail of Tears and that was another terrible, terrible thing our governement did.

There have just been too many bad events . . . :cry:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. all governments have done horrible things...

borders don't make a man good or evil...

[Spiffarino]

45. You live in CA...have you visited Manzanar?

I have. Since moving to the South I've also visited several old Southern plantations. The slaves' quarter reminded me of Manzanar.

[KSAtheist]

59. Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.

[theblasmo]

11. OKC Bombings?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. Was that an action by America???

Oh, yeah, I forgot, We have God on our side so we are incapable of "evildoing."

[Liberty Belle]

12. Authorizing massive bombings & use of torture in Iraq.

The first options listed were domestic. The Iraq war, by contrast, degraded our country in the eyes of the world and there was absolutely NO justification for it. None.

Horrible as the atomic bombs dropped on Japan were, our country had been attacked by the Japanese.

But the atrocities being committed in Iraq are decimating innocent people in a country that never attacked America. 500 pound bombs and napalm fire streams in Fallujah, torture at Abu Ghraib, and the list goes on. These are war crimes!

[imenja]

13. have to go with the Trail of Tears

as an example of the genocide we perpetrated on Native Americans. As much as I hate the war, the Trail of Tears was worse.

[foo_bar]

16. other: "The Civil War"

A pretty low-tech massacre, like Rwanda. Maybe it was our shining moment, but it doesn't seem that way now.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

37. Isn't the success of ending slavery worth it to you?

It is to me.

[fujiyama]

18. I'm surprised the slavery think ranks so low

People are losing historical perspective IMO. By far the two greatest historical sins of this nation have been the genocide and destruction of the native American tribes and the practice of slavery.

It's really a toss up between those two.

Hiroshima doesn't compare to either for the simple reason that the war was one that wasn't started by the Americans. The internment of Japanese Americans was terrible and completely unjustifiable but really pales in comparison to the treatment of African Americans and Native Americans.

[Kitka]

23. I will never understand how people can justify the murder of so many

civilians via the bombs on Japan because "they started it". My god, are we three?

[UdoKier]

19. LOL - Kent state and Japanese internment

Neither are proud moments, but hardly in the same league with A-Bombs and Indian Genocide...

[slay]

20. So many lovely options.. killing the natives of this land is

the one that haunts me the most. :(

[Jack_DeLeon]

27. Trail of Tears...

That was totally unjustified.

I dont know why so many people thing the A-bombing of Japan was unjustified? Hell the invasions of Iraq is IMO more unjustified than the A Bombing of Japan.

[WCGreen]

29. The Bonus March to Washington...

As the depression grew out of the ordinary structure of a recession, people started to mobilize. These WWI vets, promised a bonus when they reached a certain age, came up with a plan to ask for a smaller bonus now so that they could support their families. They gathered all together and took on a solemn march into the capital city. President Hoover skedaddle out the back leaving General McArther in charge.

There was a riot, some blood shed and then all the vets were chased out of washington....Very bad press for Hoover, especially the summer of 1932 when FDR was really starting to crank it up.

Some say if Hoover would have given the Bonus Army something, he would have been reelected.....

[KSAtheist]

31. Honestly...

Why do people get so worked up about the bomb, anyway? The cold war would have happened anyway, and the nuclear arms race would have occurred whether or not the bombs were dropped.

Is it the loss of life? The firebombing of Tokyo resulted in a greater loss of life, with just as much horror. People actually burst into flames due to the temperature. People were boiled alive in the Sumida river.

All it did was kill a lot of people in a shorter amount of time. It was basically making the current process more efficient. It's brutal but true.

[Disturbed]

32. Dresden.

That should be on the list.

Heroshima and Nagasaki were a msg. to the Soviet Union. The U.S. govt. knew that the Soviets would have the A-Bomb soon and the Cold War began that day.

Japan offered surrender but wanted to maintain their Emporer. The U.S. refused and demanded 100% No conditions surender. The Japanese kept their Emporer after all. The second bomb was to show the Soviets and the world that the 1st one was not a fluke.

[KSAtheist]

33. Dresden was a UK operation.

With minor US participation.

[bpilgrim]

34. we NUKED a DEFEATED, trying to surrender nation's cities filled with

INNOCENT CIVILIANS, men, women and children... TWICE.

and NEVER FORGET it is bomb that keeps on killing long after it's big BANG and reaches right up into the womb to deliver it's payload.

and that did nothing but EXCELLERATE the AMRS RACE and brought us M.A.D. and to our current insane WMD obsession.

that may have something to do with it :shrug:

* In his memoirs Eisenhower reported the following reaction when Secretary of War Stimson informed him the atomic bomb would be used:

During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. . . . (THE DECISION, p. 4.)

more...
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

:hi:

peace

[KSAtheist]

58. I say again.

What makes the a-bomb drop any different than what we did months before hand to almost every major industrial center in Japan?

Besides, the world we live in is a product of the cold war; we woulnd't have the internet, and by extension, this very board, were it not for the cold war. I believe that the mutual nuclear standoff prevented World War III, and a much greater loss of life.

[bpilgrim]

60. did you read my post?

the bomb that keeps on killing long after it has exploded...
they were already defeated and trying to surrender...
it accelerated the WMD race...
and it brought us M.A.D.

fyi: the cold war WAS wwIII also WMDs is likely to lead to wwIV.

anyways, read more details here...

"THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMIC BOMB"

* On the 40th Anniversary of the bombing former President Richard M. Nixon reported that:

(General Douglas) MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about it, pacing the floor of his apartment in the Waldorf. He thought it a tragedy that the Bomb was ever exploded. MacArthur believed that the same restrictions ought to apply to atomic weapons as to conventional weapons, that the military objective should always be limited damage to noncombatants. . . . MacArthur, you see, was a soldier. He believed in using force only against military targets, and that is why the nuclear thing turned him off. . . . (THE DECISION, p. 352.)

...

* Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings stated:

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war. . . .The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. . . .

more...
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[xchrom]

35. the genocide against native people here

then the rape of africa.
then the atomic bomb -- and i find parallels between the three events.

[Poppyseedman]

36. Slavery overall

Jamestown was pre revolutionary war so technical you are asking about the British and not Americans.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

39. And everybody else as well

Slavery isn't confined to the U.S.

[Poppyseedman]

40. Slavery exist today

Sudan is a perfect example.

Northern Muslims enslaving Souhern Christians

[AliciaKeyedUp]

41. Very true

And it's just as horrible now as then, maybe more so because we should know better.

[Spiffarino]

47. Not only Christians

Indigenous religions, too. They want everybody to follow or die. I imagine this gives Falwell an enormous stiffy.

[Poppyseedman]

49. Falwell an enormous stiffy.

Don't quite follow you.

Why would christians or anybody for that matter, being enslaved give the right round rev fatwell a woodie?

[Spiffarino]

52. I was alluding to "follow or die" n/t

[Solly Mack]

42. Systemic Genocide: which includes native peoples and slavery...BUT

But honestly, I see them all as characteristic of the same mentality.

Same kind of thinking that always brings outrages and abuses



Kent State wasn't just an attack on the student activists there...it wasn't just local....it was an attack on dissent everywhere....it was an attack against those viewed as a threat to a certain way of thinking. The death of those kids sent a message to all those who oppose the arrogant abuses of power. "You can and will die"...


You don't intern Americans because of their race, religious affiliation or origins. When you do, you send the message that there are only certain kinds of Americans that are acceptable....the rest of the people are just being allowed to live here but aren't ever truly citizens.

It took a whole lot of self-righteous arrogance to unleash the atom bomb.

Iraq? Illegal invasion with it's constantly changing, baseless, justifications....more arrogance.more ignorance.more prejudice.more racism.

Which is worst? ...that a country who calls itself the greatest nation on earth and the beacon of democracy would even have such a history. America's arrogance has lead her down the road of hypocrisy....a road she has yet to find a detour from...

[MrModerate]

43. Trail of tears as a stand-in for the genocidal policies of the . . .

17th-19th centuries in the US. Cynics would say it was more like 16th-21st centuries, but none of us are cynics, are we?

[Mr.Green93]

51. All of the above

This "country" was founded on death, lies and destruction. The world would be a better place without this blight on humanity.

[AntiCoup2K4]

53. Impossible for me to pick just one

But I see a common thread in all of them - the rich and powerful corporate elite of this country becoming more and more brazen in their actions. First by buying and selling human beings, or forcibly evicting them from their homes and making them walk halfway across the continent to a desolate shithole (no offense to Oklahomans, but the place must have really looked bad back then)

And all of this leading up to the more recent decades where wholesale slaughter is perpetuated to the point where Americans are no longer even shocked by it. The neccessity of Hiroshima could be argued either way, and probably will be until the end of time, but Nagasaki was overkill - pardon the awful pun.

Kent state was murder. Not just the murder of 4 students, but the murder of the civil right to protest an unjust war, one that they are still trying to kill to this day. True it may seem less tragic than Hiroshima, the Holocaust, or whatever on the surface. And it is, in terms of immediate loss. But in the sense that it means the loss of freedom in the country that should know better and do better, there's always the implication that even more atrocities can and will happen, and as we have clearly seen with the Bush/PNAC agenda, it can no longer be blamed on those "other guys".

Anyone objectively looking at a list of what the US government HAS gotten away with - from smallpox infected blankets right up to Hiroshima, to radiation tests performed on the genitals of incarcerated criminals, to the planned "Operation Northwoods" scenario cancelled only through the wisdom of John F. Kennedy - can see very clearly that this nation has always walked on the dark side to one extent or another. BCE/PNAC involvement in 9-11-01 really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[lpbk2713]

55. Holocaust -- LIHOP

American and Allied powers chose to look the other way and ignore the facts.