Here in Germany you don't see "give to the needy" progams like you

[flygal]

do in the states. I see from my hometown newspaper everyday they are profiling a different cause that is "saved" by generous citizens. Kids helping kids stuff - buying gifts for the poor kids. I swear to God I have not seen anything like that here.

[cornermouse]

1. They take care of their poor and incapacitated. We don't.

The current attitude here in the U.S. is the make them beg.

Okay, now that I've cooled down, the real deal is that Bush and the PNAC managed to turn this into something that would make those in this country who resent paying any taxes think that they'll get to keep more of their money if the programs are done away with. The churches see it as a proselytizing/recruiting, money making opportunity, and probably hovering somewhere in the back of their minds, potential building fund.

[ShaneGR]

7. Germany is no perfect social utopia...

It's a cool place, but definitely not perfect. There are close to 1 million homeless on the streets of Germany's main cities. Poverty has been on the increase for over a decade.

[flygal]

11. No, but I don't see the dire needs not being met of families

People get kindergeld (150 Euro/month per child), here in E. Germany kindergarten starts at age 2. There is definitely high unemployment, but there seems to be a better social solution than the US.

My hometown is 60,000 and has a horribly high poverty rate for children. Here our town is about half that and I don't see people living in condemed conditions begging in the local newspaper for rent money. Everyday the local paper is profiling a needy family - and they are working minimum wage jobs and can't support a family.

[zann725]

14. Since Reagan 'brought down the wall'?

n/t

[Spiffarino]

2. You'll be seeing a lot more in the coming years

As the Neocon Death Cult becomes more powerful, the New Deal programs will be cut further until there are enough poor people to make labor very cheap in this country. The overall design is to get the government out of the business of bettering the lives of ordinary people and into the business of making a few people very, very wealthy and powerful.

[Paleocon]

3. Charity begins at home...

Merry Christmas!


:)

[donheld]

15. "Praying For Time"

(George Michael)

These are the days of the open hand
They will not be the last
Look around now
These are the days of the beggars and the choosers

This is the year of the hungry man
Whose place is in the past
Hand in hand with ignorance
And legitimate excuses

The rich declare themselves poor
And most of us are not sure
If we have too much
But we'll take our chances
Because god's stopped keeping score
I guess somewhere along the way
He must have let us alt out to play
Turned his back and all god's children
Crept out the back door

And it's hard to love, there's so much to hate
Hanging on to hope
When there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above say it's much too late
Well maybe we should all be praying for time

These are the days of the empty hand
Oh you hold on to what you can
And charity is a coat you wear twice a year

This is the year of the guilty man
Your television takes a stand
And you find that what was over there is over here

So you scream from behind your door
Say "what's mine is mine and not yours"
I may have too much but i'll take my chances
Because god's stopped keeping score
And you cling to the things they sold you
Did you cover your eyes when they told you

That he can't come back
Beacuse he has no children to come back for

It's hard to love there's so much to hate
Hanging on to hope when there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above say it's much too late
So maybe we should all be praying for time

[Coyul]

4. Spiffarino...You nailed this one!

Well said, and very descriptive. The neo-idiots will destroy every social program in our country, and then expect us to thank them for the $5.35 an hour job. Is it time to say enough is enough yet? If not, it soon will be!
C

[GreatAuntK]

5. Cheap labor

in the U.S., as in other countries, is a major goal of *, in addition to starving the beast to do away with the social safety net.

* a Christian... what a hypocrite.

Edit: I said his name by accident.

[Spiffarino]

9. Thanks

You're right, too; they expect us to be grateful for a pittance wage. One of the directors in my office is a Fundie-Bushbot. She's always going on about how "lucky" we are to even have jobs. Every time she says it, my heart rate doubles and my ears get hot.

For Christmas, I'm wishing a scabies infestation for her nether-regions.

[On the Road]

6. Charity is a Stronger Tradition in America

One reason is that most European countries have state churches that are supported by the government. American churches have always needed to raise enough money for a building and a minister's salary. America also has a tradition of activism and building nonprofit organizations, both of which require contributions.

It's not just a matter of poverty. A lot of countries with disparities of wealth don't have anything like it.

[msmcghee]

10. I didn't know this about state supported churches in Europe.

I know in England they call it the "Church of England" but I didn't know taxpayers supported it.

Do you have any documentation for this?

[On the Road]

12. I've Had a Hard Time Finding a Budgeted Amount

There are a lot of indirect references to linkage between state and church. For example, here are two things I didn't know from the Wikipedia:

The House of Lords is an unelected body, consisting of senior clerics of the Church of England (the "Lords Spiritual"), as well as certain members of the Peerage (the "Lords Temporal"). Lords Spiritual serve as long as they continue to occupy their ecclesiastical positions, but Lords Temporal serve for life.

The Church of England, also called the Anglican Church (see England, Church of), is the officially established church in England (it was disestablished in Wales in 1914); the monarch is its supreme governor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Parliament

It makes sense in that it's the same as it was in the days of Henry VIII.

It seems that the state support is referred to as the "Common Fund" and administered by a board called "The Church Commissioners for England," but I've had difficulty finding definitive statements to that effect -- the sources all seem to assume that the reader knows how the process works. For example:

The Common Fund is the most significant part of diocesan income each year, supplemented by diocesan reserves, other diocesan income (including a grant from EIG), and contributions from the Church Commissioners. These pie-charts show where the money comes from, and how it is spent.

http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3dthe%2bchurch%2bcommissioners%2bfor%2bengland%2bbudget%2b%253dpension%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=the+church+commissioners+for+england+budget+%3dpension&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d049A6B4CE5C6F4C14%26sid%3d1A53BB4CE5C6F4C14%26qid%3d8E61695D7DF35C47929F23B1B6BEFEF3%26io%3d5%26sv%3dza5cb0dc2%26o%3d0%26ask%3dthe%2bchurch%2bcommissioners%2bfor%2bengland%2bbudget%2b%253dpension%26uip%3dac9fe280%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dBudget%2b2001%26ac%3d22%26qs%3d1%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d152%26te_id%3d%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fexeter.anglican.org%2fnews%2fpressreleases%2fbudget2001.htm&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fexeter.anglican.org%2fnews%2fpressreleases%2fbudget2001.htm&qte=0&o=0&abs=Exeter+The+Church+of+England+...+for+all+clergy+pension+rights+...+they+were+paid+directly+by+the+Church+Commissioners.++This+means+that+budget...&tit=Budget+2001&bin=&cat=wp&purl=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fi%2fb.html%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d049A6B4CE5C6F4C14%26sid%3d1A53BB4CE5C6F4C14%26qid%3d8E61695D7DF35C47929F23B1B6BEFEF3%26io%3d%26sv%3dza5cb0dc2%26o%3d0%26ask%3dthe%2bchurch%2bcommissioners%2bfor%2bengland%2bbudget%2b%253dpension%26uip%3dac9fe280%26en%3dbm%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3d%26ac%3d24%26qs%3d1%26pg%3d1%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fmyjeeves.ask.com%2faction%2fsnip&Complete=1

From a practical point of view, the few people who still attend the Church of England aren't nearly enough to fund the upkeep on those massive cathedrals and the salaries of the clergy.

England is typical of European countries. The people are more secular, but it's a relic of the monarchies that it's difficult to get rid of. My relatives in Germany talk about the state-supported church as well.

[bobbieinok]

13. in Germany there are 2 state supported churches: RCatholic and Lutheran

when you sign up/register for your 1st job, you fill out a card ....on the card there is a place to check if you are Catholic or Protestant (in German, protestantisch and evangelisch both mean Lutheran)....if you check yes for one of these, a church tax will be withheld in addition to the standard tax withholding.....in 91 the church tax was ca 8% of the standard tax (in American terms, a 'surcharge')

this church tax pays for the ministers and all other church workers, the churches' maintenance, any hospitals, rest homes, etc, that the churches run

although many Germans do not particularly like the tax and although many Germans rarely if ever attend church (they were baptized, therefore members), many Germans told me in 91 that without the church tax a lot of necessary social services would not exist or exist with very reduced support

(I'm not German; this info is what I obtained from asking questions and doing some reading.......if someone here has more accurate info, please correct)

[Kellanved]

8. but there are here

At least in Berlin there are dozens of such programs.

The prefered thing is Solidarity, not Charity though.