The sad truth about prejudice in America (edited)

[Onlooker]

When the people of Alabama voted to keep segregationist language in their constitution it provided real evidence that the South is racist.

When the people of 11 states approved amending their State Constitutions to prevent gay marriage, it provided real evidence of the role of religion in promoting discrimination.

I think liberals need to own up to the fact that a majority of white southerners are bigots and that mainstream religion is bigoted. It's sad, but true, and if we own up to it, it's a starting point for battling the rise of right-wing extremism in the country.

(Liberal disclaimer: Not every white Southerner is racist and not every religious person favors discrimination against gays, but obviously there are not enough "good" ones to win elections.)

[tx_dem41]

1. Please cite some actual numbers, before making such sweeping..

generalizations. That's all I ask. Maybe some breakouts in exit polling based on race and religion?

[Onlooker]

2. What numbers are you looking for?

In Alabama, a slim majority voted to keep the segregationist language in their Constitution. My assumption is that the vast majority of those who favored the segregationist language were white, since people of color would have no motive to keep the language.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/03/segregation.amendment.ap/

As far as anti-gay sentiment by organized religion, it's no secret that major Protestents sects and the Catholic church oppose gay marriage and were very active in the campaign to defeat it.

Do you want something more?

[The Zanti Regent]

3. Cut Jesusland loose

If you're in California, join us to work for secession at:

http://moveoncalifornia.org/index.html

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Zanti Regent]

35. Jesusland sent my only child to die in Iraq.

My only child was seduced by the lies emanating from the Jesusistas. He insisted on going to fight, I begged him not to but he would not listen. Now he has permanent residence in a VA cemetery thanks to the Jesusistas.

I have nothing left to lose but my chains. I'm going to do everything I can to take California out of Jesusland!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

37. Can the Northeast come with you? Check out this Grover Norquist quote:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/12/18/27_million_in_us_to_see_tax_bill_rise/

"Some Republicans have suggested leaving the minimum tax in place because those hardest hit tend to be in states that did not support Bush, including Massachusetts, California, and New York. ‘‘It is a tax of people living in ‘blue’ states,’’ said Grover Norquist, the conservative activist who heads Americans for Tax Reform.

He said the tax was originally conceived by liberal Democrats as a way of imposing higher taxes mostly on wealthier Republicans, and he suggested that it be used as a bargaining chip by the White House when Bush tries to enact his tax agenda. The minimum tax should be repealed only when Democrats ‘‘say they are sorry and offer to give us something in return,’’ Norquist said."


:wtf: We already pay more than our fair share! Fuck the red states!


I am so sorry about your son! :cry: :hug:

[The Zanti Regent]

44. Here you go, Kathy

http://secession.meetup.com/

Let's make the United States of Canada a reality and let Jesusland drop dead!

[tx_dem41]

4. I assume that 100% of "white Southerners" or "religious people" did not..

...vote in these elections. Much closer to 55-60%....I wonder how they felt on these issues, since you didn't mention the majority of people who voted.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

5. The vote was more complicated than that

I work with a guy from Alabama who is as left as the day is long. He voted absentee against it because of the wording of the bill which would have made education a "right" and even he was concerned about what that would mean come budget time.

Yes, there is racism in the South. There is racism everywhere.

[Onlooker]

8. Your friend doesn't think education is a right?

He doesn't sound like a leftist to me. Prejudice denies education to people to make them less powerful. Education was one of the major issues in the Civil Rights movement.

[tx_dem41]

11. Nice sidestep of her point....this nuance to the story was widely reported

I'm not saying it "absolves" people who voted against the amendment...but then again I'm not the one wielding the broadbush.

[Onlooker]

22. I did not sidestep her point. Her point was wrong.

It was people like right-wing radicals like Roy Moore who said the reason they did not want the language removed was because they feared it would require Alabama to spend more on education. The Republican governor of Alabama said removal of the language would cause no such problem. Further, a number of experts said the state would have many legal remedies to correct any unforeseen consequences of removing the language from their constitution.

This is the wording that the good people of Alabama chose to leave in their Constitution:

"Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race." The repeal provision, called Amendment 2, also would have removed from the constitution language that says the state's schoolchildren do not have a right to a public education.

[tx_dem41]

23. So you always believe what a Republican governor tells you?

;-)

[AliciaKeyedUp]

29. The guy who wrote the bill in the first place

Later urged people to vote against it.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

13. He didn't like the wording

Was concerned what would flow from vague wording.

[TWiley]

6. Not enough people understand that when

one group looses its rights, it then validates discrimination as a principle and everyone's liberties are threatened due to precedent.

Discrimination held an important function in Plato's Republic (the neo-con bible). It was the tool by which a small ruling class could maintain control over a large peasant class. "No Greek should be enslaved, and any Greek could enslave other non Greeks" Even the peasant Greeks felt like they had a leg up on the poor bastards on the rung below. A hierarchy of privilege and opportunity was established.

I see this dynamic every day where I work. A small group of Christian conservatives have banded together and turned the workplace into a "survivor island".

Single people do not deserve training or overtime, Married people without children are a slight notch above. Married with children who do not attend church above that group, Married Christians with children above that group, next is the Conservative Republican Married Christian families with children who are the most deserving.

Extra points are awarded to those who have multiple flag decals on their car, double points for religious decals, and Honorable mentions for "support the troops ribbon magnets" Bla Bla Bla

As a Democrat, I believe Aristotle's vision is correct. The best way to govern is through a large middle class. He correctly reasoned that a large middle class would occasionally side with the rich, then the poor, which would avoid tyranny from either.

America has a long history of Genocide, slavery, and racism. Lets not allow the conservatives to attach the words "Heritage" "Patriotism" "Tradition" and flag waving nationalism to these ugly parts of our past.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Your conclusions are not fully supported by the evidence

Yes, Alabama, specifically, voted to keep racist language in their constitution, so it is fair to conclude there are people with racist tendencies in Alabama ... specifically. I will grant you that.

The 11 states that voted for the Defense of Marriage crap, however, were not all in the south. Given only those two issues as your basis, it is a far leap to conclude that "a majority of white southerners are bigots". This is a case where A+B does not equal C.

Indeed, the plains and mountain states were more heavily "red" than was the south. And the entire country was rather quite purple. Your blanket indictment of all southerners was simply unfounded based on your facts and serves no purpose other than to divide people along a very different fault line. There are people very much against such things all through our country, even in the south. Indeed, it can be fairly argued that these non-racist, non-DoM people are a higher percentage of the population of the south than of the mountain or plains states.

I am not a southerner. I am a blue border-stater. I see no reason to bash those who do not deserve the blanket bashing.

[TWiley]

9. I do not think he was bashing everyone.

I believe he was pointing out that discrimination is becoming legitimized once again. It is implicit that there were many who did not vote in favor of it, and the majority apparently favors discrimination.

The truth is that it happened in Alabama. The truth is also that other states passed laws outlawing same sex "marriages" which is a precedent that could spread discrimination to other groups.

Hopefully, the loss of civil liberties by any group in America would be of some concern to you and everyone else on this board.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. The focus of my post was the blanket indictment of southerners

I agree with all else that was said.

[TWiley]

15. I reread both posts

and I understand your view point. Maybe I should have done that before I answered?

[Ms_Mary]

24. Alabama "ain't" the whole south. I think they tend to be more conservative

than some of us. There is no universal southern mentality, you know? I think SC seems to be more conservative than NC. We're purple, not bright red. We're like everywhere else, some areas are more conservative and some are more liberal but none are exclusively one or the other.

There is racism, I won't stick my head in the sand and pretend there isn't. At the same time, there are people working to overcome that. In a few months, I'll be attending a multi-cultural women's seminar. The woman who started it and the organization that hosts it is a friend of mine who has worked hard for years at bridging the social and racial gaps. And she's lives right here in part of the south that's a little more red than others.

We are out here working to make a difference. While these problems to exist, so do those of us who are working towards solutions to them. It totally and completely pisses me off when people take the defeatist attitude that we should ditch the south. Sometimes, I'm very tempted to say, in my southern accent, that if you aren't willing to do something about it, shut yer trap. It's easy to point out what's wrong, harder to do something about it.

[TWiley]

105. It is harder to do something about it.

Outside of personal contact with others, and an occasional discussion, the only way I know of doing something about the problem is through membership in organizations like the ACLU, or the SPLC.

Thank you for your efforts, there are simply not enough people who know how to make a difference.

Conservatives seem to be deliberately creating a catastrophic financial crisis. Why would they do that?

To me, the reason is obvious. First of all, they want to impoverish the social welfare structure, and next they want to have the peasants fighting for every scrap of bread.

It is nearly impossible to sell racism when there is more than enough to go around, it is easy to sell it when times are hard. Everyone is looking for a leg up on their neighbor when food is scarce. The survival instinct kicks in and humans tend to get tribal. This environment even effects religion.

A couple thousand years ago, widespread prosperity came to one group of people, and the result was widespread belief in multiple Gods and Goddesses, sexual promiscuity, and general gluttony.

Across the river, the Jewish people were living in poverty fighting for survival. Their God was angry, and imposed strict moral codes governing sexuality. Reproduction was controlled to avoid birthing more mouths than could be fed. Out of wedlock births were a problem because nobody wanted to feed those children, and nobody wanted to watch them starve to death.

At the end of the day, the destruction of the middle class suits this new Republican brand of Christian Fundamentalism perfectly.

It establishes a very small ruling class, it creates a very large and powerless peasant class, poverty forces everyone into church (especially with "faith based initiatives") and an hierarchal system of privilege based on status and race is imposed.

Individuals welcome this system because it puts their needs above those below. Those at the bottom are slaves and too powerless to effect any change.

This impoverished middle class is then governed by a ruthless God through the legislation of morality. This process is administered by the religious officials it empowers, and this structure is governed by the ruling class. The result is a small super wealthy ruling class which is free from all social responsibility, and a peasant class who must please the church for sustenance and opportunity.

This old story is actually the new conservative republican vision for America.

[Ms_Mary]

16. Thank you. :-)

[Onlooker]

19. If you read my last paragraph ...

I did not mean and never said all southerners are racist, but the fact is Alabama is a Southern State, and I find the vote there very bizarre. I assume that if Alabama is the epicenter of southern prejudice, there must be a considerable amount of prejudice in the nearby states. While there's a lot of prejudice everywhere, I think States like Massachusetts and New York have at least made progress in educating people to understand that segregation is wrong. (If you are arguing that Alabama is an anamoly, that's a different story.)

[tx_dem41]

20. Yes....the history of school integration and busing in South Boston...

definitely proves your point re: Massachusetts. :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. Yup, that was 30 years ago. Mass. has come a long way since.

What's Alabama's excuse?

I grew up in Cambridge about the same time Boston was going through the busing crisis. It was a VERY small group of vocal racists-poor whites from South Boston-that got all the attention. There were no such issues here in Cambridge-a city of over 100,000.

[tx_dem41]

30. So your point is that racism only occurs in a certain state or region?

If that's not your point...what is your point?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. My point is my state has moved forward

Alabama seems to want to move back to the days of Jim Crow.

[Onlooker]

33. My point is that prejudice is a major problem

We try to make excuses for the Alabama vote and the anti-gay marriage amendments, when we should own up to the problems in America. What happened in Alabama exposed a serious problem. I believe the problem is more serious in the Red States than the Blue States. The Alabama vote in my opinion is indisputable evidence of prejudice, and it's not being addressed.

[Hippo_Tron]

98. Alabama and Mississippi and SC tend to be pretty racist AND

Are some of the biggest GOP strongholds in the country. The rest of the south, however, tends to be a bit different. Neighboring Georgia has unfortunately over the past few years turned into another GOP stronghold, and Louisiana seems like with the elction of Vitter, is falling that way. Then there's outside of the deep south but still south of the Mason Dixon line (Tennesee, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina). SC tends to be very Republican, Tennesee and NC have fallen that way in recent years. Virginia has a tendancy to go red, but not by the margins that other southern states do, suggesting somewhat of a progressive tendancy in that state. And then there's Florida. Northern Florida is essentially the deep south. Southern Florida is much more progressive with lots of Jewish and Hispanic votes.

Finally there's Texas and Arkansas. Arkansas has proven a dem stronghold over the past few years and I think that if dem presidential candidates spent more time there, we could win. Texas isn't as red as Mississippi or Alabama, there are some very progressive parts of the state. Unfortunately, when the GOP gained control of the state, they abused their power to keep control.

[Tomee450]

102. I agree with you.

Some people are in denial about how really racist the South still is. It was in Texas that most of the black men in a small town were given long prison sentence for drug trafficking on the testimony of one white man who was later found to be a liar. Most of the blacks were later released through the efforts of people who were mainly not from the region. In Georgia a black youth was given a long prison sentence for having consensual sex with a white girl. The jury did not believe she had been raped but had to convict him because she was underage. She was one year younger than the accused. In several of the southern states, whites decided to have separate proms. In Maryland, white alumni of a certain high school would not invite the blacks who had graduated from the same school. The south is still a very racist part of the country, IMO. Many whites southerners are only in the Republican party because they hate African Americans and still do not approve of them gaining civil rights.

[tx_dem41]

106. Point out where a Southerner on this board said...

....that the South did not have a large number of active, open racists?

The danger is that we are seeming to discount and thus not fight passive racism that can be found in every city and town and rural area across this country. We Southern Libs actually have it easier because the targets are out there to confront. Its the Libs outside of the South that have a tougher job because the racism is more subtle, and as a result more effective. Its everyone's duty to fight racism.

[liberalhistorian]

12. As if we needed

"real evidence" that many in the South are racist and homophobic! Duh, what a surprise!

In all fairness, though, the other areas of the country really aren't much better in that regard, they just like to think they are.

[Ms_Mary]

14. You have managed to offend this non-bigoted white southerner.

I detest broad sweeping generalizations. You may have added the caveat that we all aren't, but it's still pretty offensive. Almost half of us voted dem.

[billbuckhead]

40. Until we admit the problem, we can't address it,the South is the hotbed of

racism and intolerance in general. The Republicans run as the Christian White guy party and Democrats are identified as the "soft" on blacks and other undesirables party. There's like a kind of turning racism on it's head that we can't offend the South for this. Why isn't it pointed out that there are almost no African Americans or foreigners in Freeping NASCAR. (Oddly, there were more black drivers back in the 50's and 60's). The so called flag of "heritage and not hate" really represents rebellion from the US based on defending rich people's ill-gotten property, even slave property. There was little difference between the Confederacy and Third Reich. That's why white supremacists around the world proudly fly the "stars and bars" right alongside the Nazi flag.

Let us never forget that the Reagan era started with the Gipper's starting his Presidential run in Philadelphia MS. He didn't visit Boston or Camden or Chicago or New Hampshire or even start off back in California, no the "Great Communicator" started his campaign by appealing to Southern racism.

Until we face up to this fact, no amount of pandering will help the Democratic party, it only makes us look pathetic in the face of bullies. The South is the most racist and intolerent part of North America not just the United States and a party preaching tolerence will struggle in this tough environment. The reason we fail in the South more than any other region of the nation is because of the lack of values in today's Southern culture.

Instead of pandering to the NASCAR dad meme, maybe we should remind everyone that white supremacy is a large part of NASCAR's success.

I don't mean to offend the large amount of non Fascist Southerners but Democrats can't pretend that the South doesn't have a race problem and that it dominates it's politics and it hurts the whole rest of the world.

[Ms_Mary]

49. A few lines above this, I also said

"There is no universal southern mentality, you know? I think SC seems to be more conservative than NC. We're purple, not bright red. We're like everywhere else, some areas are more conservative and some are more liberal but none are exclusively one or the other.

There is racism, I won't stick my head in the sand and pretend there isn't. At the same time, there are people working to overcome that. In a few months, I'll be attending a multi-cultural women's seminar. The woman who started it and the organization that hosts it is a friend of mine who has worked hard for years at bridging the social and racial gaps. And she's lives right here in part of the south that's a little more red than others.

We are out here working to make a difference. While these problems to exist, so do those of us who are working towards solutions to them. It totally and completely pisses me off when people take the defeatist attitude that we should ditch the south. Sometimes, I'm very tempted to say, in my southern accent, that if you aren't willing to do something about it, shut yer trap. It's easy to point out what's wrong, harder to do something about it."

[Touchdown]

45. Oh' get over it Mary!

I live in Colorado. I am also non-racist. Someone up there just slammed Mountain states as being more bigoted than the south. Did I say anything? Until now, NO!

There are racists everywhere, even Mass and Calif., we all know that. The south isn't alone with this stain on our culture...but one thing is for sure...Everytime one of these threads comes up, the Southerners come out of the woodwork bitching about "stereotypes", when most of these threads have no such intention. Another thing that is absolute fact...Southerners have the thinnest skin, and larest siege mentality of ANYBODY on the PLANET!:eyes:

[Ms_Mary]

48. Blah blah, My mind is all changed now.

I hate generalizations, period. I have a right to a different opinion. Keep your facts.

[Ms_Mary]

52. Excuse the knee jerk reaction

I am tired of generalizations and I do try to do something about it. I have heard enough calls for secession to last me for years and it's gotten really old.

[Touchdown]

57. Hmm. I'd like to see you defend another reigion some time.

Maybe start with Ma. for that "Massachusetts Liberal" label thrown around last fall.

Sure you have a right to a differing opinion, but the stereotype exists mainly because of the outcome of this vote in Alabama. That didn't happen in Wisconsin, or Nebraska.

Are you doing something about correcting the legacy of racism in your town/city/county? As a gay man, I think it's fine for the drag queens and dykes on bikes at gay pride celebrations, but for political demonstrations, or marches on Washington, please leave your evening gowns, leather cod-pieces, and Harleys at home. It only encourages the further stereotyping.

Can you control what everybody thinks? No, and neither can I. But the history is clear on this. Medgar Evers was not murdered in Aspen, Billings, Tucson, or Reno. That is a legacy you'll just have to live with.

[Ms_Mary]

67. Sure, I think the liberal label is an attempt to discredit northern dems

and wrongly so. I'd like to see liberal stand for something GOOD in the eyes of the general public, not be a derrogatory term. But that wasn't what the thread was about and therefore I didn't bring that up. I'm not from AL and if you look a few lines above above, you'll see where I said that Alabama ain't the whole south and I think they are more conservative than most of us. You'll see where I acknowledged that racism does exist. And you'll see where I addressed that I am indeed working within my community.

[tx_dem41]

68. How do you know that Ms. Mary hasn't?

[Ms_Mary]

71. This is who I had lunch with last Tuesday

http://www.odwc.org/#

I hope to present poetry at the multicultural women's seminar this spring and to volunteer. The founder is a friend of mine.

[tx_dem41]

72. Ms Mary...you impress me everytime you post on DU.....

now where is that smilie icon for "sucking up"? ;)

[Ms_Mary]

88. Thank you. I finally came to the decision

that if I wasn't going to do something, I had no right to complain.

[Touchdown]

73. I don't, which is why I formed it into a question.

:eyes:

[tx_dem41]

74. I didn't realize the following was a question:

"I'd like to see you defend another reigion some time"

My bad. :eyes:

[Touchdown]

81. Something wrong with that?

I'm saying I haven't seen her say anything, not that she hasn't.

Also in the body of my post your jumping on, I did ask that very question. Back off!

[tx_dem41]

82. You corrected your mistake....

by adding "not that she hasn't". I'll back off now.

[Touchdown]

85. I didn't make a mistake. n/t

[tx_dem41]

53. Actually, if you read the entire thread..."We" all DON'T know that. n/t

[Touchdown]

61. I saw it, why didn't you?

Yeah, it was in a disclaimer on the bottom, but that's because so many southerners gang pile on anybody with a legitimate criticism about the oh' so above reproach Dixieland.

[tx_dem41]

62. You obviously missed the poster's ORIGINAL post...

before it was locked. Why didn't you see it?

[Touchdown]

76. Oh' I don't know, trying to get more Tec-9s into the hands...

...of Columbine HS kids, I guess. Our snowboards for guns exchange is doing great here. Everyplace has it's baggage. Learn to live with yours.

[tx_dem41]

77. Wow...when did I ever negatively stereotype any region or..

...state on this board? You must have found something I don't remember.

[Touchdown]

84. Ok, I understand now.

Comprehension trouble. I was making a joke about my own state, in an effort to in an attempt to help you understand that there are skeletons in everybody's closet. I guess I failed to make that simple enough.

I don't believe the original poster stereotyped either. He might have chosen his words more carefully, but it's certainly no cause for an internet lynching. (Oh'... I'm sorry, was that insensitive?)

[tx_dem41]

86. Hey...I love Colorado....

as I remember though you aren't thrilled by the infiltration of Texans every winter. ;-)

[Touchdown]

89. They never bring the BBQ sauce with them.

How dare they?;) 6 months of driving in the mountains, and I'm fine with Texans. I wish more Texas immigrants voted Dem though..like the Californians and New Yorkers!

[tx_dem41]

90. We finally agree on something!

I'll remember to bring a case of BBQ sauce next time. :-)

[Ms_Mary]

69. I hate the term Dixieland.

It's words like that that perpetuate the stereotypes we all hate so much. It creates a further divide between cultures. There is a difference between acknowledging the past and insisting that the present is the same. Nothing changes overnight, but things ARE changing. It is not the same as it was.

[tx_dem41]

18. What exactly is the goal of your post? n/t

[fortyfeetunder]

21. Validation (by a slim majority) racism is acceptable.

[tx_dem41]

26. So 50.1% of the 60% or so of VOTERS in one state vote one way

...on an issue...and that leads to "racism is acceptable". Ok...whatever.

[fortyfeetunder]

92. The sad truth is

sometimes the silent majority gets trumped by a minority!

[Onlooker]

25. The goal of my post is ...

The goal of my post is to say that we have to come to terms with the fact that we are up against real prejudice, and we have to start calling them on it. Let's stop making excuses for ignorance. It may be unpleasant, but the next time a Democrat runs for President, s/he should at least consider addressing the problem of racism and the accompanying ignorance. Maybe someone like Hillary or Dean or someone else could build a strong coalition of people of color and the 20-30% of progessive white southerners to defeat the prejudice that is there. I think Democratic politicans need to be honest and call it like it is, and honestly on issues like this starts with people like us.

[tx_dem41]

27. Where do you come up with the "20-30%" figure? n/t

[Onlooker]

31. I've seen polls showing that ...

A link I found quickly.

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/w/walker/04/walker082904.htm

What about the Battleground Poll a couple of months ago, in June 2004? Fifty-nine percent of Americans called themselves "conservative" while thirty-eight percent of Americans called themselves "liberal."

I assume that there are more liberals in the blue states, so the number 20-30% seems reasonable, I think.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Thank you for letting me know that there's prejudice in the US

I wouldn't have known that. Where I was a little kid in the 1940's and 50's - in (blue) Connecticut in (blue) New England, located in the (blue) northeast - I guess I never understood what the white kids meant calling the dark skinned kids "nigger". I guess I never understood why the Puerto Rican kids were called "spic". I guess I never understood why they called the Jewish kids, "kike". I guess I never understood why, being Italian, I was called a "wop".

I guess I never understood all that. Was that prejudice?

I guess I never understood why white parents would warn their white children not to go to some neighborhoods where it appeared that everyone had darker skin. I guess I never understood why those same darker skinned kids would gather in groups apart from the kids who looked more like me.

Was that self segregation a defense against prejudice?

I don't think anyone anywhere in ths country thinks there's no prejudice.

But thanks for letting me know. I'll work on it.

And I'm sure all those prejudiced southerners will work on it too since they seem to have the monoploy on it, not us northerners.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. You're bringing up crap from 60 years ago

60 years ago black kids couldn't go to white schools in the South. 53 years ago 25% of my father's high school class was black. Racism was everywhere in the 1940s and 1950s-not just the South. My dad fought in Korea-the first war where blacks weren't segregated from white GIs. The North had begun to modernize and progress, while the South clung to institutionalized racism and rejected civil rights. Maybe it had to do with economics and tradition. Again though, the majority of Northerners have progressed while the South (and many of the sparsely-populated plains states) remains behind. Why?

[tx_dem41]

38. When did Topeka, KS become part of the South?

You know. Brown vs. Board of Education?

Maybe you should say that "60 years ago, black kids couldn't go to white schools in many places throughout the country"?

And, reading more about the SC case...I just found out that another state involved in that case was Delaware. Lots, of rebs in Delaware I guess.

[Stinky The Clown]

43. That "crap" from 60 years ago is very much alive today

Moderated in the northeast, to be sure, but still very much alive and well. The 64 Civil Rights Act is the law of the land, but laws only hide racism, they don't eliminate it. Later civil rights legislation went even further. But nothing - not one thing - eliminates visceral racism except for change in the basic culture. That change, to be sure, is more evolved in some areas than others. But it is not a universal change. Racism remains to this day pervasive and widespread. Insidious and real. Overt and covert.

Case in point - one of many I could cite: Two years ago I was Connecticut for a visit and had occasion to rent a U-Haul truck. The only store that had one was just off I91 up in the middle of Connecticut - somewhere near New Britain. The good store owner, a fine man with obvious moral standards, had hate radio on. There was a black "English as Second Language" couple returning a truck. They didn't understand one of U-Haul's many fine print ways to separate their customers from their money and were questioning this fine gentleman as to why he was charging their credit card an extra few bucks (50 or 60, actually). He continually referred to them as "you people". Tell me, please, how that is anything but purely racist. When they finally left, he turned to my son and me in exasperation (with hate spewing from his radio as the background music to this wonderful ballet of ideals) and asked if we had ever been able to "deal with those idiot niggers."

That story is bad enough on its face, but look deeper.

Why was this man feeling so empowered as to assume we would agree with him? Why did he feel safe to say to a customer what he said to us?

Why? Because he lives with other racists, day in and day out.

In (blue)Connecticut, in (blue) New England, in the (blue) northeast ...... in 2002.

"60 year old crap"?

I think not.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

50. Yup, that's an individual experience. Assholes like that are everywhere

I've run into people like that no question. But you have to face facts: crackers who want the Ten Commandments in public buildings and belong to the League of Concerned Citizens (formerly White Citizens) do not get elected up North.

As Onlooker said, the South dragged its feet on child labor, on workers rights, on women's rights, on immigration, on civil rights, on gay rights, and now there's evidence that prejudice is making a resurgence. You can stick your head in the sand and recount individual experiences up North, but you have to confront the fact that racism is institutionalized down South via politics.

[Stinky The Clown]

70. Think of that "individual experience" as the canary in the coal mine

This was a man who encounters the public all day long. This is a man who lives in a community where that sort of thing is tolerated. I have no doubt he is representative of a larger issue, not an individual anomaly.

Is racism in the south more "institutionalized? The strongest word I could use to answer that is "maybe." I live in Maryland now and have for the past (nearly) 25 years. Before that I lived in a number of places deep in the south ..... Charleston, SC, Durham, NC, Chattanooga, and Memphis.

You need to understand something about me. I seem to attract racists, bigots and various social miscreants like a magnet. I am sure it is my appearance. The way I dress. The way I walk. I don't know, but its very true. I seem to just "fit in" in those circles in a way that would make me a great spy!

I can honestly say I have encountered as much racism in the northeast, where I frequently visit and where my roots are, as I do in the south. VERY little difference in the degrees. True enough, even today, one will encounter more *overt* racism in some parts of the south than in, say, your town of Cambridge (I am assuming this is the same Cambridge as resides one Hahvahd Yahd). But no more overt racism than one finds in, say, Kansas.

In many ways, however, that's easier to deal with (and also explains why seeming anomalies like the recent Alabama Constitutional vote). The perhaps more serious problem is the covert racism. That which people try to keep hidden but which is there, just below the surface.

No, I suspect the very same urban/rural divide on matters of race as exists in this country nationally is played out in all states as a microcosm of the national situation.

I have family in upstate NY, the rural suburbs of Albany. My uncle was a farmer and also a guard at Ossining (Sing Sing) Prison. He lived on Rt 9W. Believe me when I say that on any given day one could easily envision legions of knights in white robes coming across the ridge on steeds. It was every bit as racist a society there as anywhere in the south.

My two points in all my posts in this thread are:

Racism is alive all over the country. Maybe in different forms, but no less virulent.

Racism is not the exclusive province or the South or of Southerners. We are all exposed to it, no matter where we live. We need only open our eyes.

And yeah ...... I'm an old guy and I hate racism. The only thing for which I have no tolerance is intolerance.

[Onlooker]

39. Of course there's prejudice all over

But, southern prejudice has more political clout, and that's because their prejudice is more active, as shown by the Alabama vote. By the way, did you know that Democrats started to lose the South after Johnson/Kennedy passed the civil rights legislation? I wonder why we didn't lose the Northeast, too? Your thoughts?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

41. Bingo-the North has progressed, the South keeps reliving

its past.

[tx_dem41]

42. You two keep fighting the Civil War...

some of us here are trying to actually change things. We recognize that the solution to problems such as racism must come from a wholistic approach, and that divisive thoughts such have been expressed in this thread only keep racism (and bigotry in general) alive. Heck, its alive and well in this thread.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

46. Good luck trying to change things

as long as politicians in the South play the white Christian card, the South will remain a bastion of prejudice. There is racism in the North, but it is institutionalized in the South via politics.

No, I'm not prejudiced against the South. My grandma is from Tennessee and I have confederate soldiers as ancestors. I feel bad for progresssives who are trying to fight an uphill battle. But you have to face facts: crackers who want the Ten Commandments in public buildings and belong to the League of Concerned Citizens do not get elected up North.

[noiretextatique]

83. are you old enough to remember the opposition to busing

in BOSTON? south boston, i believe. that wasn't 60 years ago either. all my black friends from boston say it is an extremely racist place that they never want to see again. looking for segregation outside the southern states? try southern california...or NYC, for that matter.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

93. Boston's made a lot of progress

yes I remember busing-it was an awful time. It was 1974 (see my post above). I grew up in Cambridge about the same time Boston was going through the busing crisis. Cambridge is right across the river from Boston. It was a VERY small group of vocal racists-poor whites from South Boston-that got all the media attention. There were no such issues here in Cambridge-a city of over 100,000.

I'm not saying it was an isolated incident, but Boston is trying to learn from its mistakes and has come a long way. Alabama and many other Southern states haven't.

Segregation now is more based on class than race or ethnicity here. So many people are being forced out of the city because of rising housing prices. It's becoming impossible for the average family to survive. But that's a whole other topic for another thread.

[tx_dem41]

94. "Segregation now is more based on class than race or ethnicity here. "

Funny, that's what they say in the South, too. At least, we Southern libs don't believe it when its said.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

96. Starting trouble again, eh?

New immigrants, single women (all ethnicities) and children, and low-wage workers are disproportionately affected. Yes, I bet in the urban areas the majority of them are black, Latino, and other immigrants. More than half the people in Boston were born in another country. If you go out to Central Mass-which is rural and 99.9% white-that's where you'll find the worst poverty in Mass. It's the meth lab/oxycontin capital of New England.

As much as you attempt to pigeonhole the North as the same as the South, you just manage to show your ignorance of the North.

[noiretextatique]

99. there is little difference, to be honest

i would argue that the south experienced the same time of scrutiny that boston did the 70's, and the SOME people all over the country are committed to ending racism, while others are not. i seriously doubt there are more racists in the south than there are in places like nyc, boston, san francisco, and los angeles.
my family who live in the texas find california racist...the only place where i've been called n*($%& too :shrug:

[Onlooker]

47. That's not true

I think our political culture is plagued with lies and hypocrisy. I think we have to say honestly that there's a serious problem in the South that needs to be addressed. I'm not saying that us northerners should address it. There's always been a strong progressive movement in the south, but clearly it hasn't been strong enough in recent years.

Historically, the South dragged its feet on child labor, on workers rights, on women's rights, on immigration, on civil rights, on gay rights, and now there's evidence that prejudice is making a resurgence. We need to confront it. It's dangerous. We do not face the same danger in the blue states as we face in the red states. There's at least some evidence that the red states have gerrymandered along color lines, refuse to pass hate crimes laws, have a bigger double standard than "liberal states" in terms of death sentences for blacks, and so on. These are real issues, and as long as we and our candidates ignore those issue, we'll continue to sink further into the sort of denial and hypocrisy that has allowed terrible crimes to be committed in the name of religion and preservation of the state.

Prejudice to some degree is a regional phenomenon, at least since the War of Northern Aggression.

[tx_dem41]

51. Your disregard for racism in the North...

really makes me wonder....hmmmmmm....and then your last phrase really makes me wonder...hmmmmm.

Oops...sorry, just being divisive.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

54. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand

no one said racism DIDN'T exist in the North. But it isn't part of the political culture like it is in the South. You're being obtuse, not divisive. Maybe you have an axe to grind with us Yankees? ;-)

[tx_dem41]

55. Heck, I love y'all.

Your cooking kind of sucks though. ;-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

58. Traditional New England cooking is disgusting but

all the different ethnic influences over the past century has definitely improved the cuisine here.

[tx_dem41]

60. You haven't eaten good food, until you grow up ...

in New Orleans.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

64. New Orleans food is so rich

there's like a pound of butter in every dish. It's soooo yummy, but I can only eat like that once in a while.

[tx_dem41]

65. Rich....it can be...but don't forget about the spice! n/t

[Onlooker]

56. I'm not disregarding racism in the north

Southern racism manifests itself on the national level, but I don't think northern racism does. As far as my last comment, it was tongue in cheek, but the fact is in at least some southern states, Georgia, for instance, people still talk about the Civil War as something inflicted upon the South. (The number of monuments glorifying the Confederacy is frankly scarcy.)

[tx_dem41]

59. Oh...I was just funnin' with you.

;-)

[SnowBack]

63. I wish the racism and bigotry was only in one place...

Unfortunately, I've been called a faggot more times than I could ever have imagined here in the so called enlightened Bay Area of California...

I've had to put up with bomb threats because I have a rainbow flag on my house...

And time after time I've had people assume that because I'm white that I would enjoy hearing "nigger jokes"... or agree with them about "the Jews" controlling everything... Or had to listen to people who have always voted Democratic tell me that "they should shoot the homeless".

Moving from Canada to California has been an eye opening experience. I have experienced hatred here that would be unimaginable in Canada...

But there are also many people in the U.S. who fight that hatred and bigotry like junk-yard dogs... And those people give me hope when I feel like hate is winning...

For every time I'm called a faggot, I realize there are people like SF Mayor Gavin Newsom - a straight man willing to do what is right and not what he "should" be doing.

And people like John Kerry give me hope, who, after being told by Bill Clinton to support the Same Sex Marriage Bans in all those states, told him he would "never do that".

And all the people who after learning about the Salvation Army's continuous bigotry against Gay people, refuse to donate.

And all the people I talk to who understand that we can never accept "separate but equal"... And that all we want is Marriage Equality...

[Tomee450]

104. I am an

African American who has lived in both the North and South and was never more fearful than when living in the South. The attitude of some whites was just awful. They would look right past you and wait on a white person even though you were the first in line. We were always afraid to drive the back roads in rural areas of the south. One of my relatives almost lost her life trying to out run a gang of whites who were chasing her. Some of the small towns in the rural south seems not to have been affected at all by the civil rights acts. I will not deny that racism is a reality in other parts of the country, but IMHO, it's far worse in the South.

[mark414]

66. it's not just white southerners

it's white people in general

in some cases, the racism is the WORST in northern cities

chicago, milwaukee, detroit

fucking terrible

and (not directed towards anyone in particular), being a liberal does NOT make you immune to being a racist...just because you don't wear a white hood or bitch about "dem nigs takin our sports and women" doesn't mean you're not a racist

[radio4progressives]

75. The SAD TRUTH is that Liberal elitist support White Supremacy Systemically

Manning Maribel put it quite well in yesterday's DemocracyNow! edition, when he said (paraphrasing)that Dems would rather LOSE an election - rather than provide the necessary resources to assist the inner city communities to register voters, and get them to the polls. Contacts i have in Los Angeles, said there was absolutely no visible effort of voter registration going on East Los Angeles or South Central or other areas of that are largely inhabited by African American Latino and other people of color communities.

I live in Northern California and called the Kerry campaign HQ located in Santa Monica a number of times in the months leading up to the convention on this matter. The response from the volunteers, were that they will be out there just before the elections.

That's extremely inadequate response not only to the concerns i raised, but to how this issue should be dealt- organizationally and on the ground.

With the money that Kerry campaign committee was able to raise, why the hell wasn't it used to take care of these problems?

The answer to me, is becoming more and more obvious. As a white person, born and raised in the South - in the fifties and sixties, during the civil rights marches, and riots - i find this not only extremely egregious and disgusting, i find this cause for a serious revolt. Kerry's campaign and his early concession (as well as the entire campaign leading up to the convention and the convention itself) supports my conclusions.

It's time for the Democratic Party to face up to this issue, and put forward candidates that reflect the core base of this party - once and for all. The DNC is undergoing a change of leadership, and it's a good time to make serious headway on this matter NOW.

[mark414]

78. word up

republicans often make the charge that democrats take the black vote for granted....and they're right

the worst kind of racism ISN'T wearing a white sheet over your head...it's turning your back and ignoring the very real problems that exist on an institutional level

at least republicans don't make much of an effort to conceal their contempt for the poor and forgotten...

[gottaB]

79. There are strategic reasons for not putting money into California

I'd be interested to know how money was spent in Ohio.

[tx_dem41]

80. What does your answer have to do with state and local elections?

I mean there are races other than national.

[gottaB]

101. The post I was responding to criticized the Kerry campaign

[tx_dem41]

107. Fair enough....you are correct. It did.

Sorry for jumping on your post.

[noiretextatique]

100. pointing the finger at the south

tends to excuse a problem that exists all over. one could say it's a self-serving position. i can tell you stories about my experiences in the liberal bastion of san francisco, but suffice it to say:
sometimes labels exempt people from walking the talk, like the label "liberal." the liberals i worked with in the early 80's, for example, thought nothing of selling off traditional allies in pursuit of, well, people who weren't allies at all, as was the rage then. with privilege comes to privilege to use it, whenever one chooses to do so.

[mmonk]

87. Calling large groups of people bigots

might not be a good strategy. Making your points by having access to discuss or present issues is the best strategy. I live in a red state and just calling them bigots won't work. Now showing them what appears racist and bigoted will work for then, they will have to come to grips with their problems of bigotry they are glossing over. In other words, don't call them that, show them and shame them.

[noiretextatique]

91. reagan won the first time with appeals to racism

and white resentment, but it wasn't just people in the south he appealed to. i remember his first election very clearly because i was just graduating from college and entering the job market...in california.
there was a change in the air when he was elected...it was a victory for unabashed white supremacy (among other things), imho, and those who were so inclined to practice it were free to do so again. at least that's the way it seemed to me at the time. little since has changed my mind. so...it's NOT just the south where appeals to white supremacy are successful...hardly.

[Radical Activist]

95. What does SCLC stand for again?

Oh yeah! SOUTHERN CHRISTIAN Leadership Council.
Didn't they have something to do with the civil rights movement? ;)

You know, it seemed to work pretty well when we used to talk about liberal issues in terms of biblical ideals and principles that the average southern Christian identified with. It might be a good idea to do that again.

[Onlooker]

97. They had the power. They don't anymore.

Sure, when our guys are on top, I'm okay with religion because it espouses principles that I consider moral. But, right now the dominant religion is filled with avarice and intolerance.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. Uh, there's racism in the North at well

It shows up in the form of "white flight," massive relocation to the suburbs when the North started integrating schools and housing in the 1970s.

When I was working as a temp in Minneapolis in the early 1980s, I noticed that so many of the industrial plants were in the outer suburbs, even though there was a lot of vacant industrial land in the inner city. I asked why this was so, and I was told that the companies didn't want to hire black people. I asked why not, and they said, "Black people don't want to work. They'd be on welfare."

So, you move your plant out to the edge of the cornfields to avoid hiring people who don't want the jobs anyway? Yeah, that makes sense. :crazy: