Mike Malloy laid it on the line last night

[femme.democratique]

He said that if the Dems don't do anything to suppress Gonzales from getting confirmed to the AG post, that he will abandon the democratic party and start from scratch, join the Green party or start another party altogether. He really went off on it, I hope Randi Rhodes follows his lead. Sorry to have to say this on a site that espouses the Democratic party with little criticism other than member posts.

I'm with YOU Mike, dump the cowards!

[babylonsister]

1. I dunno.

The dems have to pick their fights now. There's going to be a long list of people they need to not get behind, primarily supreme court justices. So maybe someone like Gonzales would/is more tolerable than what awaits us in the future. :shrug:

[Philostopher]

3. What if the ultimate plan is to put Gonzales on the Supreme Court?

And when they put him up for it, say, 'well, no need for any long, drawn-out confirmation process. After all, you guys said he was good enough to be AG -- that should be good enough for you!'

I don't know what's the right thing to do, but I think that possibility should be considered.

[Atman]

4. There is virtually no circumstance under which Gonzales is tolerable

He is the most unqualified person ever to be put in this post. He makes Clarence Thomas' resume prior to his Supreme Court induction look stellar. He is the very reason we have situations like Abu Ghraib. He is a menace to society.




1st Amendment Shoppe

[femme.democratique]

5. exactly

Which is why they need to re-double their efforts against ALL unaccepable nominees instead of taking the pick-and-choose route. Appeasement NEVER works, except to give the "bad guys" even more power and control! Problem is, the congress are all leaches feeding on our money and liberties - and by their acquiescence this means many Dems are in that boat as well...blinded by their own ignorance about what their inaction means to the average american.

[acmavm]

6. Gonzalez is neither tolerable nor is anyone that comes down the pike

going to be any more dangerous to democracy. He's just about as bad as it gets. He wrote the opinions to justify the tortures in Iraq. Do you seriously believe he'd do otherwise if it came to prosecuting those who are against the occupation and violence in Iraq? I sure as hell don't.

[atreides1]

8. Sure

And the Dems in the Senate should go ahead and confirm a man who feels that torture is justified, and thinks that the Geneva Conventions are "quaint".

Why not give the job to someone who could potentially become the American-Hispanic version of Himmler.

They need to fight against every appointmet that Bush sends, this one as well as any Supreme Court Inqusitors he might want to have sit on the Grand Inquisition.

[wtmusic]

12. The "quaint" comment sealed it for me

Fascism is on, folks. New & Improved Torture is OK to fight the New & Improved War on Terror.

It's a *whole* different game now...:eyes:

[liberalnurse]

2. I feel that Harry Reid has Gonzales's number.

Our goal is to keep our Senate Democrats in their seats. If Jomentum feels flattered these days by the bushies and company, then we are looking at some serious loss of our final leverage.....the Filibuster.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. I already quit

the stolen election issue just did me in. First I was shocked at the Dems lack of response. Then I realized that they probably have done the same thing in the past and don't want that revealed. So the party didn't speak up. Then they were swamped with emails from angry voters and figured they had to do something. So they sent Jesse Jackson to Ohio.

Just my take on it. But I am disgusted at the lack of outrage from Dem leaders. If anyone else has a better theory, I will gladly listen.

[spooked911]

23. I'm with you!

Sad to say.

The repugs are thugs but the Dems are wimps and they are both corrupt institutions. I think we need to start over with a fresh party.

The 9/11 investigation for instance, both parties are involved in the massive cover-up because they are all involved in the scam.

[Gothic Sponge]

55. I didn't quit!

My party quit me. I'm still a democrat, but our Democratic leaders have given up. Maybe i'll become a Green......

[pocoloco]

9. The Greens have been showing backbone

and will undoubtedly pick up a lot of support for their leadership against election fraud, and in my opinion, well deserved!

[femme.democratique]

11. Certainly we need a third voice to disrupt this whole left-right BS

My hope is that both Libertarians (we need an effective way to divide conservatism against itself) and Greens gain more backing to even the playing field against the corporate parties, thought we're talking 15 years for it to get big enough to force real change....

[Cocoa]

10. why did he remain a dem when they approved Ashcroft?

[femme.democratique]

13. I think the point he is trying to make

Is that they have laid down like whores CONSISTENTLY over the past four years, the anger has been building because this is a pattern...so yeah they didn't stop Ashcroft but things are so much worse now...it is unexcusable

[Cocoa]

15. that's not a "point"

that's just boilerplate namecalling.

Yeah, Gonzalez sucks, but how are these silly threats going to help anything? Is some radio guy -- that attacks dems nearly as much as republicans anyway -- threatening to go Green going to change anything?

[femme.democratique]

18. He's allowed his opinion

And he has some power in that he has means to communicate his opinions with fairly large groups of people. Who asked you to agree? Are you saying he should be censored? Are you really just a freeper in more "liberal" clothes? I think you just might be!

[Cocoa]

20. violent mischaracterization of what I said

I said nothing which could remotely be taken as suggesting Malloy didn't have a right to say what he said, or that he should be censored.

[nofurylike]

14. WE are the cowards, unable to get off our butts and into the streets,

cryin, "daddy democratic leaders, save us!!"


ain't gon help t' go cry t' other daddies.

just mho


peace

[femme.democratique]

16. yeah you're right (not)... what an overly simplistic answer...

We're not out in the streets because protesting makes no difference unless there is a large movement of outrage. Not wanting to be stun-gunned, tear gassed, and arrested without any rights (which is what we're dealing with now) isn't cowardly, its self-preservation.

Change ain't gonna happen with the Democratic party, sorry, and we DO need VISIBLE leadership. So, stay a supportive Dem if you want, stay on the train to nowhere....

[nofurylike]

21. uh, this the same mike that said if they stole another election he'd

see us in the streets?

that your answer to him?

[femme.democratique]

29. that your answer to him?

that is an unintelligible comment...

nevertheless point taken, you really don't like him and seem to suggest he is a hypocrite, so what? He's bombastic and has passion, he's angry and doesn't apologize for that - thats what I like about him.

[nofurylike]

31. no. i'm among his biggest fans. i did go to the streets. so did he.

did you?

will you?

we don't have another chance, to realign with new parties.

we won an election. it was stolen, again. we have to act, or we lose everything.

is that praaaahpah enough grammar for you?


peace

[femme.democratique]

32. may i quote you...

"we won an election. it was stolen, again. we have to act, or we lose everything."

Does anything I have said, and the intention of this thread (as communication of an expression of anger at the apathy the democratic party shows at present), have anything to do with not wanting to expose the election fraud we all know took place? No. Fact is, dems have done little to earn any trust through this post-election process, with the exception of Conyers and the other good reps. They really don't seem to care, and that SHOULD piss you off! I have written so many letters and emails and done everything I can think of to get our "leaders" to act on this.

To respond to your query: Did I? Yes. Will I? Yes. However, I won't be blinded by party affiliations. FYI, regarding my comment that pissed you off, I can't communicate with you effectively if I can't understand what you're trying to say.

[nofurylike]

35. Conyers and those other heroic people did ask us to rise up.

"Selma to Ohio"

while they work so hard, we must dedicate to OUR responsibility. all the talk of 'those dem's' must be redirected as 'us dem's' because we have responsibility here.

you know, there can't be third parties until we do the long and arduous work of reforming u.s. civic structure first. our political structure was designed that way, and we must do that basic reform before third, fourth, etc parties will not just be tools of the ruling/most privileged class in stealing elections. many many many of us have fought our whole lives for that reform, while some just want to jump right in and win - or profit by implying they could win? -elections.

ps, it didn't piss me off. i believe you got my point and that praaahpah thing was to bicker. no?


peace

*edit spelling

[femme.democratique]

36. obviously WE have a responsibility as We The People

But we're dealing with an entrenched power structure, the Democratic Party is as guilty as the Repuke Party in suppressing real change to the civic structure of our country. This is pretty evident. So, trying to change that same power structure via those in power just doesn't make sense, I don't think they will ever willingly allow conditions that will provide third party challengers the ability to disrupt to the status quo. Our two-party system is coporate, and corporations don't play fair.

So, in essence, taking to the streets in this day and age will only be successful if you have MILLIONS of people, creating such disruption that the media and the Joe CommonMan can't ignore it. This will only happen when government abuses are communicated effectively and those abuses cause real harm in the lives of those who now seem to be asleep. For me, that is the bottom line. It is going to have to get much worse than election fraud and torture in Iraq for people to wake the fuck up and get on it. I will continue to do what I can as an enraged liberal, but like I said before....I'm not blinded by a party affiliation. I have always voted Democratic and I am heartbroken that most of the Democratic leadership with notable exceptions seem to be so complacent and willing to accept these abuses.

[nofurylike]

42. i think we agree in many ways. but i know that it will take just as much

to save our planet as it will to take back the party that represents participatory democracy.

for instance, i believe that working to make the democratic combine into a green (earth/health-centered) party is no harder than to make an entire new party. but i also believe we must work as hard on creating truly representative government, somewhat like a parliament, so there can be as many parties as it takes to truly represent all people, and ensure equal opportunity and rights for all.

point being, it will take the same, so we must embrace that we ARE the democratic people, and that the party is ours, not big business's.

when people get angry at the current manifestation of the democratic party, and threaten to leave it, i feel that it abandons those who work incessantly to evolve the party into what is increasingly ideal.

i'm off for now, but thank you for this thread, and for discussing this.


peace!

[nofurylike]

43. i left this out: it will take a million-PLUS to save ourselves from

what WE have done to the planet of all life on earth. we have no choice but to do it, or die. so either way, we best inspire that million-plus. then, it is OUR Green Democratic Party.


peace!

[Lone_Wolf]

64. Kerry conceding Ohio so quickly made me realize that the Dems...

is like a trap for Progressives and Liberals. Instead of us investing our time, energy, and money into progressive political parties (like the Greens) where our efforts might be fruitful, the Democratic Party just sucks up our resources so that we have naught to show for it. Just like a parasite. The only question to consider is this by design or by chance?

To me the Democratic Party in its current form serves the same purpose as the Washington Generals in a Harlem Globetrotters game... to be the perennial losers in a rigged game. This is why I recently joined the Greens.

[deutsey]

65. His concession certainly sapped any "in the streets" movement

Remember? Skinner here at DU was packing up and heading for Ohio and calling on DU'ers to do the same. Then Kerry conceded and the story became "Bush wins!" and all the "irregularities" and recounts went down the national memory hole.

No surrender, my ass.

That pushed me over to the Greens too. I've been gritting my teeth since 2000 (hell, since '94 or even since the bungled health care reform attempt) and trying to remain with the Democrats. No more.

Enough is enough.

[nascarblue]

66. Kerry pocketed 51 million. He aint too bummed I imagine.

[paulk]

69. Kerry did not pocket 51 million

you are repeating a right wing talking point

[shadowknows69]

46. it can start with ONE person standing in front of a tank.

or a presidential limo.

[femme.democratique]

48. I agree, are you saying you volunteer to get shot on the spot?

'Cause you know they have no qualms...and it won't get covered on the media like it should....

[shadowknows69]

54. wiil you all fight if I do?

[femme.democratique]

59. I will. Definitely.

[AgadorSparticus]

26. almost a million dems marched the streets of NYC in summer heat

to make a statement. that did a whole hell of alot of good. when our leaders are not doing their jobs, it is our job to call them on it. to stay quiet in the name of party unity is the antithesis of everything democratic.

[nofurylike]

30. it did do a hell of a lot of good, including contributing to our winning

this election.

we did not stand up last time it was stolen. we swore we would if this one was stolen.

leaders have called us out to the streets, and we're not showing up. they are doing legal processes that can't help if we won't fight for them. what more can they do, if we won't?


peace

[nascarblue]

67. The only thing that will save our country is to...

...covertly organize and mass protest. And a 51 capital march ain't going to cut it...everyone has to go to D.C.en masse, like the Million Man March or Earth Day in the 70's. Unfortunately I don't think today's apathetic, narcissitic sleeping youth cares as much as kids of the 70's but I may be wrong.

So if this can't be done, I feel we're headed towards some bloodshed or Americans ending up in concentration camps. After all, thats what they're practicing for with Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and others. People are already getting numb to the photos that were released. Hell, FReepers are worked up in a lather on their site that the "left" is even making noise about it. They think we should all be "locked up and tortured" now for making an issue out of it and interfering with national security!.:crazy:

[The Zanti Regent]

17. This country is lost.

Either we move for secession now or we will be in concentration camps.

[nofurylike]

19. that IS how dire things are. no time for new parties for next time around.

no more next time, now.


hang in there.


peace!

[spooked911]

24. so what are the Democrats gonna do?????

they have been pretty damn ineffective so far.

[nofurylike]

28. "they" are US. did you go out and stand in the freezing cold last sunday?

how many did?
a thousand across the entire country?

"up to the voters"
that's us.

of course call on leaders to do their work. but this is our responsibility, too. and we're not doing ours. until we are, why is it appropriate to slam them and not ourselves?

we are being apathetic. blame whoever you want to, but it is us who are being that.

[shadowknows69]

47. we wait long enoug

and it will come down to making the decision to stand and fight (and maybe die) or live in bondage. Comfortable slavery is still slavery.

[spooked911]

51. Actually I did!

Except we did it on Monday in Indiana.

But it WAS freezing cold! Probably around 0 degrees F with the wind chill.

[gumby]

22. Gonzales gave the "legal" imprimatur

to Bush's extremely heinous world-wide torture gulag.

This is EVIL on a Hitlerian scale. Thousands of innocents rounded up, doctors participating in torture, unspeakable atrocities.

If the Democrats can not stand against this unprecedented EVIL as embodied by Gonzales, then they are not worth anything as human beings and worth even less than nothing as a political party.

This is bottom line stuff ... not political posturing.

[spooked911]

25. I agree-- we are headed over the cliff at this point and only some

real leadership from the dems can stop us.

Somebody HAS to make a stand on principle.

[reprobate]

33. I'm afraid we'll see no "new leadership" from the dems.

It's crystal clear at this point that dem or repug, they are owned by the same corporations. They smile and cowtow to the corporations so they will give them money for their campaigns. Once the money is given the corporations (and their lobbyists) have open access to the representatives and senators. This is what has ruined our party, our gov't, and our nation. To put the blame anywhere else is absurd.

There is only one thing that can bring the party back to its roots, and that is full public financing of all campaigns. Without it no change can happen because the corps own the congress. And the y will not allow that.

I have not left the democratic party, they have left me. I've been a dem since JFK, but the party now has nothing to do with the principles that Kennedy represented. I have lost all respect for most of the leadership. AFAIC, there are just a few of the leadership worthy of the name. Dean, Kucinich come to mind. Cant think of any more right now.

If a new party were to rise from the ashes of this election, I'm with it. But no longer will the party that betrayed us all get my support, until and unless they can demonstrate to me that they are once again worthy of it.

[spooked911]

45. I completely agree

I hope somebody is listening, because I am sure you and I are not the only ones who feel this way.

[reprobate]

63. Spooked, I believe-and have heard from several MSM pundits-

..that there is a general and majority feeling among the populace that something has gone seriously wrong in this country.

No, I don't thing we are alone. I think that there's a spark of discontent growing in the country. Will it lead to revolution? I don't know. I do know that the pressure is building. If there is no political solution to release that pressure there will be a popular solution, and those have historicly been violent, bloody, and followed by a period of destabilization.

The result? Who knows. But you can bet that it won't resemble the current mess.

[AgadorSparticus]

27. i love Malloy. he has the balls to say what so many people are

thinking--even if it isn't the accepted conventional wisdom. i'm completely with ya mike! and this business of "don't criticize the party" because repukes don't do it, is really turning me off.

[depakid]

34. Let's see if he puts his money where his mouth is

because I don't see the Dems planning to do anything but sell out again and again and again....

Dean can only do so much- if the rest of them won't heed his advice, then what's there left to do? A much stronger Green party could actually be a real benefit through leverage and alliance.

[eleny]

37. I heard him last night, too, and can understand his frustration

I think that today it all came down on me like a ton of bricks. Christmas around the corner and then the New Year with only the inauguration of evil after that. Gonzales was the one who figured out how to make torture doable, yet his future is bright. At 58 I hang my head that this is what my generation is passing down to the next. My heart is breaking.

I don't think I can abandon my Dem Party. But I can't help but believe that it may have abandoned us and now isn't even listening. I keep seeing Nader's face in my mind's eye and hear his words echoing. DU posters called him a crazy old guy. I don't think he's so out of touch. But embracing a third party surely would strengthen the Republicans.

Right now I don't know what to do and just feel like a good cry is on the horizon. Maybe go regoup, read some books, clear my head and gather strength. I just don't want to do a damned thing that will strengthen the Repubs. I wish Mike well. Each one of us has to do what we think will make the difference in the long run. He always makes us think.

[B Calm]

38. Hillary Clinton raved about Kerik being a good choice!

I agree with Mike, this has to stop!

[tjdee]

39. Yeah, because Republicans won't win if the Dem party falls apart.

:eyes:

That'll help.

[Minstrel Boy]

40. The line must be drawn here

I'm sorry - trust me - to quote Star Trek, but how about Jean Luc Picard for DNC chair?

We have made too many comprimises already, too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back, they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. But not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!

[B Calm]

41. Sen. Schumer also praised Kerik's nomination

I'm telling you the democrats better find some backbone before the next election!

[Disturbed]

44. Gonzales is Fascist Scum,

Any Dem in Congress that approves of him is a traitor to all Dems and all Amerikans.

Everytime I invite progressives in the Dem party to join us Greens the comment comes back that the Greens are not relavent. OK! The Green Party could become relevant when Dems that know damn well that their party has sold them out to Rethug Lites join the Greens.

[paulk]

49. It's hard to blame Clinton or Schumer for their support of Kerik

why wouldn't they support a fellow New Yorker for such an important position? It's not like they nominated him - and as far as tarring them with what's come out about him now - they were not responsible for vetting him, either.

Get real...

[B Calm]

61. You don't support someone who happens to

be from the same state. Clinton and Schumer should have known better!

[paulk]

62. of course you do!

What kind of answer is that?

"You don't support someone who happens to be from the same state"

Do you follow politics at all??????

[paulk]

50. yes, join the Greens!

Start your own party!

Then you can have a say in who gets to be the next AG!

The Greens and Libertarians can filibuster!

Or they can run their mouths on the radio!

Or on anonymous internet websites!

Woo hoo!

[spooked911]

52. oh yeah, like the dems are really going all out to stop Gonzalez

or anything else Bush does.

The problem is that they aren't doing these things that you mention!
(I assume you're being sarcastic).

[paulk]

53. they probably won't stop Gonzales, they don't have the votes

there will be hearings where his deficiencies will become a matter of public record. If ethics violations come to light, there may be a chance that his nomination will be stopped. Otherwise, the Democrats, who don't control any branch of the government, will let this one go. They won't spend their limited political capital on Gonzales.

If people want to put blame somewhere, put it on the people who voted in a Republican President, Senate, and House.

Or they can vote for a third party and insure that Republicans continue to control our government.

[femme.democratique]

57. Thats what I thought too before the election!

"Or they can vote for a third party and insure that Republicans continue to control our government."

I'm through with this namby-pamby bullshit. It is time for all out war and they don't want to make waves. Its all about maintaining status-quo, and they have no interest in changing that.

I was listening to Thom Hartmann over the past week, and he put the two-party system into some interesting historical perspective. The parties have changed in consistency and constituency over time. Like how the Lincoln Republicans somehow mutated into the evil we have to live with today. I think this shift towards markedly more conservative centrism is just another one of those types of changes, the party will evolve and may not resemble itself in 20 years. In fact, like the Whigs, there is every precedent for a party to follow the same demise.

You yourself can try to change that, and Democrats may yet redeem themselves by showing real leadership. But I'm sorry, they have really REALLY let me down having been given one too many chances to stop this madness and dropped the ball.

[femme.democratique]

56. you're part of the problem PaulK

obedient slave to the two party paradigm.

[paulk]

60. well, good luck with convincing another 59 million people

to accept your paradigm.

[RBHam]

58. The Mantra

Remember and repeat at every opportunity...

Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez
Torquemada Gonzalez

[Danger Duck]

68. Yawn.

Malloy lays it on the line very night. If our leadership was like him or mimicked him, there wouldn't be a Democratic party. When Franken leaves, I'll be concerned.