Christmas "under siege"? Christmas is a PAGAN tradition

[Julius Civitatus]

I find it hilarious how all these right-wingers are whining and screaming out loud about "secular liberals" trying to "destroy Christmas." What a pathetic excuse for a scandal. The best part is that you know it's all a fabrication by the usual bunch. Check out today's excellent column by Frank Rich in the NY Times.

For those actually wondering about Christmas, the celebration of Christmas, and all these bizarre traditions surrounding the Christian celebration, please check these links I'm providing you for your enlightenment. Make sure you mention these FACTS next time an asshole wingie tells you about Christmas being "under siege."
(You're welcome.)

In short, Christmas wasn't always celebrated by Christians; it's a relatively recent festivity, but it has PAGAN origins. Roman emperors from the Late Empire pretty much created Christmas as a way to make the official Christianity more palatable to the pagan majority; these people observed several winter solstice celebrations, including the birth of Isis (Egypt and middle east), the birth of Mithra (Roman Empire and middle east), the Yule honor to the Sun god (northern barbarian tribes, Europe), and many others.

For the record, nobody knows for sure when Jesus was born. Some say September, some say January 6th. The date of December 25th was a Roman imposition to unite several pagan religions under Christian Roman rule.

If you see a fundie friend doing the mistletoe kiss tradition, tell them they're engaging in ancient pagan fertility rituals that often progressed into wild orgies. Tell them you are ready to celebrate the tradition "all the way." See them go apoplectic.

If a fundie friend or relative set up a Christmas tree, tell them you respect their worshiping of the Yule and the totem-tree of Nordic barbarian pagans. Heck, you are an open-minded librul after all!
If they want to celebrate "Saturnalia," you absolutely respect that!

http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-traditions.html

http://wilstar.com/xmas/xmassymb.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/pagan.htm

And then to make matters even more complicated, bring Santa Claus, which has an actual Christian origin (Saint Nicholas), but got completely mixed with Nordic myths and legends.

http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/nikohelp.htm

PS: Ironically this post, which is just a collection of historical FACTS about Christmas, will be construed by the wingers as another "attack" on Christmas. Ugh!

[ClassWarrior]

1. Christmas has been under siege by Corporate America...

...since the beginning of the 20th Century. Even Linus comments on it in "A Charlie Brown Christmas." Which is also a product of Corporate America - albeit a good and decent one.

NGU.

[displacedtexan]

2. I made a new bumper sticker today! What do you think?

[Julius Civitatus]

3. Funny

[displacedtexan]

5. You should read my blog entry: Worst. Christmas Films. Ever.

Here's the link:

http://www.ascrivenerslament.blogspot.com/

I also post "Today's Sermon" every Sunday.

[LynzM]

4. LOL

Yeah, true!

[eShirl]

6. troll the ancient YULE-TIDE carol

fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la

[eShirl]

9. P.S. make the Yule-tide gay

couldn't help myself

[bleedingheart]

7. My family celebrates using pagan customs...

it was the pagan holiday first...the christians co-opted it to help with conversion.

[tx_dem41]

8. It will also be construed by some Christians on this board.....

as an attack on Christmas.

[OnlyInAmerica]

10. No it isn't

Christmas is a Christian holiday. Saturnalia and the Winter Solstice were Pagan holidays. Undoubtedly Christmas was scheduled to coincide with the latter to bring Pagans into the fold, but Christmas itself is definitely a Christian holiday. Hence the word, "Christ - mas". What day would you prefer Christmas be celebrated? Apparently someone lost Jesus' birth certificate which showed the exact time and date of birth. Why is Veteran's Day celebrated on one particular day? After all, not all wars were ended on the same day, and not all soldiers were killed on the same day. Obviously one day must be chosen for Veteran's Day, President's Day, etc. just as it is for Christmas.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Significance of December 25th....

It was the Feast of the Unconquerable Sun (Sol Invictus), observed by worshippers of Mithras. The Mithraic religion, from Persia, was especially popular with soldiers throughout the Empire. Whatever its origins, I would consider Christmas a partially Christian holiday.

However, not all Christians agree. Orthodox Christianity has a few quibbles:

www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/fasts_feasts/bassoline_origin_christmas.htm

Then there's the fellow at "Last Trumpet Ministries" In essence, the Mass is the ceremonial slaying of Jesus Christ over and over again, followed by the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood. The Mass is the death sacrifice, and the "Host" is the victim. This is official Roman Catholic doctrine, and "Christmas" is a word that they invented. Again, I ask, what is so merry about the pain, bleeding, suffering and death of Jesus Christ? Satan has done quite a job of getting millions of so-called "Christians" to blaspheme. What a deceiver he is.

Now you know the true meaning of the word "Christmas" or Mass of Christ. There is much more to know about this pagan holiday, and we will be glad to provide you with plenty of evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25th, and that Christmas is not only a lie, but is actually a witches' sabbat called "Yule" in clever disguise. Please contact us at the address below, and for the sake of your soul, flee from idolatry!

www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract4.html

[tx_dem41]

15. Yet, none of these things addresses the fact that Christmas is

celebrated by millions of Christians TODAY.

[Bridget Burke]

22. Why ADDRESS that fact?

Everybody knows it. Just thought I'd point out that some Christians don't celebrate the holiday. I didn't even mention the 7th Day Adventists.

It's a holiday with pagan origins & a Christian spin. It's not simple.

[tx_dem41]

23. I don't see how the birth of Christ, which is what Christians celebrate...

...at Christmas, is "Christmas spin". Who cares about the date of origin.

[CatholicEug]

48. Uh, not quite

True, the Orthodox Churches celebrate Christmas a few days later. But what of it? As a Catholic, what do I care what they say? They are Christians ... only they seem to take offense that Catholics and mainline protestants celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25.

And regarding the other post, it's really not worth responding to except to say I think it's ironic that you try to prove a point by quoting from a hate website.

[CatholicEug]

51. For your entertainment

the website you quoted also seems to have something against rock and roll, Britney Spears and Kabbalah. Whatever.

<http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/2004/November2004.html>

[Lex]

14. Christianity co-opted the existing Pagan celebration

and proclaimed it to be in celebration of Jesus's birth.

[tx_dem41]

16. And this means what about the sincerity of Christians celebrating..

Christmas today?

[Bridget Burke]

24. I appreciate the "sincerity" of some Christians.

But I find the fake controversy started by the Dominionists quite revolting. They make real Christians look bad.

[tx_dem41]

35. You could say that about subsets of any group....

even DUers, as I've discovered.

[Lex]

29. I don't know about "sincerity" but the snottiness and holier-than-thou

attitude that Christians exhibit toward all non-Christians during this time of year, particularly considering of the true origins of celebrating on December 25th, is a little much.

[tx_dem41]

37. I'm a non-Christian.....what examples of "snottiness and holier-than-thou.

...attitude" that "Christians" (Note...you did not say SOME Christians) exhibit can you point out?

[Lex]

57. The fake controversy about taking "Christ" out of Christmas for starters

that has been blasted all over the news media for the last 2 weeks.

Falwell and O'Reilly and their fundie-bots whining about the liberals trying abolish the Christian aspect of Christmas--not that the big corporations haven't pretty much done that already.

The "Jesus is the reason for the season" mantra.

(Note . . . I did not say ALL Christians).

[tx_dem41]

60. Maybe its a quirk of mine....

but when one uses "Christians" without some qualifier before it, I assume one is talking in a general sense. My bad for being wrong.

[Julius Civitatus]

20. Let me specify

Since some of you are getting ticked off about my post, please allow me to be more specific:

- Yes, Christmas (or Christ Mass) is definitely a Christian celebration. Of course. Denying that would be silly.

- The way we celebrate Christmas TODAY has very little to do with Christ. As a matter of fact most of the Christmas related traditions of today's Anglo-Saxon America have very little to do with Christianity, including the Yule log, the "Christmas" tree, the mistletoe, Santa and his helpers/reindeer, the present-giving and even the birth of Jesus on December 25th.

You are wrong about the decision to make December 25th the "birth of Jesus." It was not random, and it was not associated with "Christians hiding their Christianity." Early Christians celebrated the death hand resurrection of Christ. Christmas, as we know it today, is a post-medieval celebration, only reaching the status of the main Christian celebration in the last few centuries.

Both Emperor Constantine and Pope Julius I established Dec. 25th as the "official" birth of Jesus, mainly intended as a way to make the adoption of Christianity as the official state religion more palatable to the pagan majority of subjects of the Roman Empire.

[tx_dem41]

26. "The way we celebrate Christmas TODAY has very little to do with Christ"

On what basis do you make this statement? Who are "we"?

[Julius Civitatus]

31. Read my original post again

By the way, I think we found the "defender of Christmas" in the forum.

Dude, chill out. Nobody is "attacking Christmas." I'm just stating some historical background to most of the current Christmas celebrations. I think it's at least interesting, and I wonder how many Falwell and O'Reilly types are aware they are reenacting many pagan rites unkowingly.

[tx_dem41]

39. Isn't it sad that Christmas needs a defender at DU....

AND I'm a non-Christian. And, just to confuse you more...I will fight tooth and nail to keep church and state separate.

[Julius Civitatus]

40. Good for you

:toast:

[tx_dem41]

42. Welll...I finally feel a little love flowing my way...

;)

[Julius Civitatus]

45. It's all good, my friend

I love open debate and contrasting points of view. That's why I like DU. Plus I'm kind of an part-time history buff...

:hi:

[TO Kid]

11. Misleading at best

The early Christians chose late December for the celebration so that it would coincide with the Roman holidays, enabling them to celebrate freely without being "outed" and becoming a meal for some lions. Just because it takes place at the same time doesn't make it the same celebration- that would be like claiming that Passover is a Christian holiday or Eid is a Jewish tradition.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Not a real good analogy

I think I understand where you are going with your analogy, but saying "that would be like claiming that Passover is a Christian holiday or Eid is a Jewish tradition" is not accurate. Passover existed before Christianity. However, your second example might be a better analogy. Just my thoughts.

[Julius Civitatus]

21. Wrong

"Early Christians" did not decide that. Emperor Constantine decided so.

[TO Kid]

63. Constantine just made it official

Christians were holding their celebrations around the time of the solstice when the Empire was still based in Rome. Like all good authoritarians, Constantine set an "official" date for the sake of uniformity.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Great points

But, like you said, try explaining this to Xians and they go ape shit! I don't think that Xmas having pagan traditions is a bad thing at all, but at least acknowledge it! Xians were imperialists, but they were smart ones. They knew to get people over to their side, they would have to incorporate 'local' traditions. Thus, a new holiday was created.

[UdoKier]

19. They don't go ape shit. They don't care.

I know plenty of christians, and most of them know know Jesus' birthday wasn't really Dec 25, and they know the present holiday has pagan origins. They don't care.

And yet people will keep beating this dead horse because apparently it's really trendy to be a neo-pagan now.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. I disagree

Since I live in Oklahoma, perhaps my experience is different from yours. When I did a presentation on Xmas traditions and where they evolved from, I got death threats! So, your friends may not care, but there are many out there who think any comparison of Christianity to paganism is a threat to their religion and spiritual beliefs. It is the same reaction one will get if you say "Christian mythology." That phrase will make their heads spin off!

[UdoKier]

47. Good memory there!

Twenty points for recall!


Oklahoma sounds scary.

[tx_dem41]

52. But this thread is not a "comparison of Christianity to paganism"...

unless that's your agenda? I thought it was at most a discussion of the possible roots of a religious observance.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. roots and comparison

In discussing the roots of this holiday, there are comparisons to pagan rituals and Xian rituals. You can compare and explore roots at the same time. I have no agenda except discussion.

[tx_dem41]

58. If you are comparing rituals...then why did you state this was

a comparison of Christianity (a belief system) and paganism?

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Paganism...

...is also a belief system. You can compare belief systems and rituals, they are not mutually exclusive.

ON EDIT: Where did I state that this thread was a comparison of the two relgions?

[TO Kid]

65. You got that right

I'm still waiting for the mainstream media to write about how the Hajj is a pagan ritual to. I guess the journalists who are aware of that fact don't want to lose their heads over it.

[UdoKier]

18. Who cares?

This seems to be the fun factoid for liberals this year. I can't even count the number of times this as been mentioned on this board. It's so completely irrelevant to spiritual concerns, and it's also irrelevant to the establishment clause/separation issue.

Why constantly bring this up? Nobody cares.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. By your own admission

It appears lots of people care. The issue is there are some Xians who force the issue and others simply educate them on where some of the traditions evolved. It is not an affront to their spiritual beliefs, nor is it meant to deride the holiday. At least, that is not how I intend it.

[UdoKier]

32. I don't take it as an affront. I'm an atheist.

I just find it boring and irrelevant.

[Bridget Burke]

34. And this is an excuse to bash Liberals....

I'm probably an atheist as well, but I'm not as bored as you.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. ?

Then why post?

[UdoKier]

43. Because it's so totally off the subject.

I don't know why liberals are so easily drawn into these irrelevant tangents.

One person chimes in that Xmas has Pagan origins (like that's some sort of big revelation) and then all the liberals start squawking the same thing.

Meantime, the right just ignores us because we are squawking about tangential irrelevant issues, and continue ripping the country to shreds.

I totally disagree with the stupid assertion that "liberals are destroying Xmas", but not one person has been able to show how the pagan issue has anything to do with it. The accoutrements of christmas are pagan in origin, but the part of Xmas that actually (supposedly) matters to fundies has NOTHING to do with the accoutrements, it's the birth of Jesus.

The only thing they love more than the birth of the baby Jesus is the eventual flaying and mutilation of Christ, as evidenced by Mel's horror film, the Passion.

[Julius Civitatus]

28. Well, some people care

If you don't, well, it's your business. If some other people want to discuss it, why do you bother to oppose it?

For the record, not everyone bringing up these historical facts is a neo-pagan. I find your blanket statement insulting and (at best) intellectually lazy.

For the record, although I consider myself agnostic, I've been raised as Catholic in a very conservative Catholic environment. To me acknowledging these historical facts wasn't exactly easy, because they contradicted much of the dogma I was raised to believe. I still find it very interesting how all these pagan traditions were meshed with the Christian celebration and accepted as inherest elements of it.

I think it's fair wanting to discuss these historical matters in a progressive forum, in the midst of a fabricated "Christmas under siege" scandal. And it doesn't make me a "neo-pagan."

[Bridget Burke]

30. The whole controversy was invented by religious nutcases.

They are the ones who "brought it up."

[UdoKier]

33. I agree with that.

But the holiday's pagan origins and influences are irrelevant to the church/state separation issue.

[Julius Civitatus]

38. Nobody is discussing that

Who mentioned the "church/state separation issue"?

[UdoKier]

46. Aren't they?

The fundies' whole problem is that they HATE the separation of church and state. They want to push it into every part of public life. That's what they're really mad about, and that is what provoked this article.

I suppose the revelation may be enlightening to some ignorant people, but to me, it's like saying that Jesus was black. Okay, so maybe he was. So what?

[Bridget Burke]

44. I find anthropology & comparative religion fascinating.

Since you find this all irrelevant, why bother to post?

[UdoKier]

50. If that was the context of the discussion, it might be interesting.

But This discussion is not:

FUNDIE: Let us put our nativity in the town square! Stop saying Happy Holidays! Say Merry Christmas! You liberals are taking the Christ out of Christmas!

LIBERAL: Well, Christmas is based on a PAGAN festival! NYAH NYAH NYAH!


This is fascinating? That's about the level we're talking on here.

[CatholicEug]

41. Christmas -- Christ's Mass

A Roman Catholic and Orthodox celebration of Christ's birthday ... pretty much adopted by all Christians, even those who aren't sacramental in nature (in other words, don't celebrate a mass).

In other words, Christmas isn't pagan. It's Christian.

Perhaps what you're getting at is that there has always been a celebration around the winter's soltice. I won't dispute that ... man has always looked for a sign of light during the darkest time of the year ... thus, Saturnalia, Hannukah, Christmas. But so what? I argue that Hannukah and Christmas are based on actual events. The fact that the various churches/religious elders used their holidays to supplant a pagan holiday doesn't mean the event didn't happen, anymore than us celebrating Lincoln's Birthday on the wrong day doesn't mean Abe Lincoln wasn't born.

[Bridget Burke]

49. So, celebrate Christ's birth on any day you choose.

But others will continue to celebrate this season for their own reasons--as they did before baby Jesus was a glint in God's eye.

Actually, the Orthodox have a few quibbles about Christmas:

www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/fasts_feasts/bassoline_origin_christmas.htm

And some Protestants abhore the holiday:

www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract4.html

The fact remains that this latest controversy was manufactured by the Dominionists & their fellow travelers. You need to learn more about these guys who are making all Christians look bad; and they hate Catholics.

Please--say "Merry Christmas" as much as you want. But others will use the greeting they prefer.

[CatholicEug]

53. They hate Catholics

Is that why you continue to post their website? To rile, antagonize, spread dissent among Christians on this site? Give it a rest ... I grew up in the south ... I know what it is to be hated because of your faith. I'm not affected.

Regarding celebration of Christmas, I appreciate it ... I will celebrate the Lord's birthday on December 25, if it's all the same to you. If others want to worship Zeus, celebrate Saturnalia, extend Hannukah, have an orgy on that day, it's all the same to me. It doesn't lessen the life of the Christ.

[Bridget Burke]

61. I was raised Catholic in Texas.

So I know of what I speak. When they told us that JFK was dead & we were leaving school early--some of the other kids cheered. I still defend Catholicism from the brain-dead idiots who were raised believing the Spanish Inquisition is out to get them.

You are angry with me because I keep pointing out the Dominionist sites--& how they have created this & other fake controversies. For the sake of all the good Christians I know, I would be quite proud if I could spread awareness of these dangerous snakes who have gained far too much power. If you feel solidarity with them, I pity you.

Thank you for the compliment.

[CatholicEug]

66. What on earth ....

are you talking about?

"You are angry with me because I keep pointing out the Dominionist sites--& how they have created this & other fake controversies. For the sake of all the good Christians I know, I would be quite proud if I could spread awareness of these dangerous snakes who have gained far too much power. If you feel solidarity with them, I pity you."

HUH?

As best I can tell, the only one here who has a problem with Christmas being celebrated on December 25 is YOU, and the damned idiots on the website you insist on giving space to.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Wrong website. Here's the information on the Dominionists.

www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html

And here's the first mention of "Wah, Wah, Christmas is being attacked"--written almost a year ago, on a site belonging to Beverly LaHaye. She & her husband (of "Left Behind" fame) figure strongly in the rise of Dominionism.

www.cwfa.org/articles/5040/CFI/misc/

Let me know how much solidarity you feel for these people.

[CatholicEug]

68. I repeat

What on earth are you talking about? Is this how you argue your point? If someone disagrees with you, you point them to hate sites, and then claim that the person who opposes you must feel "solidarity" with the hate site?

Let me refer you to what you wrote before:

"The fact remains that this latest controversy was manufactured by the Dominionists & their fellow travelers. You need to learn more about these guys who are making all Christians look bad; and they hate Catholics."

Me: If they make Christians look bad, why do you keep referring to them? Why are you giving these bigots the time of day? Who cares what they think and their crackpot theories?

You: Please--say "Merry Christmas" as much as you want. But others will use the greeting they prefer.


Me again: I accept ... I'll celebrate it on December 25. If you or anyone else want to celebrate something else on that day, feel free. If you want to tell me to have a great Yuletide, that's your concern. "Merry Christmas and the peace of Christ" right back at ya. Like I said, I DON'T CARE what others do or if the Church of Rome (my fave!) assigned the Christ Mass to December 25 to better assimilate the pagans. Every major faith does that. What's it to you?

[Bridget Burke]

69. No. Let me reword it more simply.

The current "Christmas Under Attack" controversy is fake. It was devised to divide the people of this country by making it appear that Christianity is under attack. If news shows are devoted to this fake story instead of what's happening in Iraq or what damage Bush's policies will do to this country, that's great.

The Dominionists are using religion to gain political power. I don't care what you do on December 25th, either. But--aren't you even a little concerned at what's being done to this country in the name of Jesus?

[CatholicEug]

70. NO

No, I don't care about Dominionists. I don't care about Last Trumpet Ministries. I don't care if they hate Catholics or other Christians. I don't care about whatever hate-filled website you post. I don't care about their crackpot theories or why the Orthodox celebrate Christmas on Jan. 6 instead of December 25. I don't care about your crackpot theories either. Maybe this is all a plot by the media to shift attention away from Iraq, but I don't care.

Call me an evil man. I don't care.

Likewise, I don't care if others celebrate Saturnalia, Yuletime, or Winter's Solstice on December 25. That's between them and whatever god they want to worship. I don't care.

And more than anything, I don't care about this thread anymore!

[Bridget Burke]

71. It's easy to live in a simple world.

And George Bush is a Godly man.

[CatholicEug]

72. See above.

[Bridget Burke]

74. I knew you really wouldn't leave....

Or, by saying "see above"--are you commanding me to raise my gaze to the heavens?

I do that already.

[Julius Civitatus]

54. Yup

My experiences with X-tian born-again fundies involved (most of the time) their obsessive attempts to convert me, their attempts to make me "repent for my papist ways," to reject Catholicism and "accept Jesus as my personal savior," and more berating and insulting remarks about Catholics while trying to "convince me."

And they always tried to sell me this "repent now" thing as if they were selling me insurance.

:grr:

[tx_dem41]

55. You're trying to have you cake and eat it too...

You say..."But others will continue to celebrate this season for their own reasons--" even if those reasons are not following its paganistic origins from centuries ago...but you criticize Christians celebrating this season precisely because they do not follow those paganistic origins...

I'm confused now...which is it?

[Bridget Burke]

62. Which particular statement of mine criticizes Christians?

Besides the LaHayes, Pat Robertson, and Bob Jones III?

[tx_dem41]

64. I question the agenda behind this general issue, but since I see

that you have an interest in anthropology and religion, I think I might be unfairly lumping you in....sorry, if I am.

[Lisa]

73. the Puritans were way more "anti-Christmas" than most secularists

... or non-Christians I know.

They banned many outward forms of celebration (parties, games, decorations) -- not just in Cromwell's England, but in their US settlements as well. I would love to see the "Christmas under siege" people trying to argue with those folks!

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Christmas/DankoChristmasBanned.htm

""For preventing disorders, arising in several places within this jurisdiction by reason of some still observing such festivals as were superstitiously kept in other communities, to the great dishonor of God and offense of others: it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof that whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shilling as a fine to the county."

From the records of the General Court,
Massachusetts Bay Colony
May 11, 1659"


p.s. at the end of classes in December, my Religious Studies prof would always ask, "what's the most important holiday in the Christian calendar?" Most people would think it was Christmas -- then he would gently remind us about Easter. And his students would go home in an unusually thoughtful mood. (A lovely man -- Jewish, actually -- with a long white beard that made him look like Santa!)

[VaYallaDawg]

75. I think the whole thing is another cooked-up "crisis"

just like the WMD and every other cockamie piece of BS the RWs harp on.