Christmas display at the Courthouse

[Turley]

My town. Like many, many towns in Germany has an Advent-Calendar type Christmas display in 24 windows of the courthouse with local high-school students supplying the artwork.

Germany probably has one of the highest percentages of atheists anywhere in the World. We also have very high percentages of Muslims here locally (compared to the rest of Germany).

Still, no one complains about a religious display on a government building. No one gets their feathers ruffled. No one files a lawsuit. Everyone just enjoys the Christmas tradition (which is quite nicely done in Germany). So why can't we do the same in America? What, in fact, is the big deal about a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Other countries pull this sort of thing off with no problem. So what's our problem?

P.S. I'm an atheist myself, but such displays don't bother me in the least.

[shoelace414]

1. becalise religious fundies

use approved nativity scenes to post ten commandments (nativity scenes don't hurt anyone, why would the ten commandments?), which in turn allows more and more..

[bones_7672]

2. It's the Chistaphobes who want to eliminate anything christian

from our culture, totally ingnoring the rich religious tradition of every facet of our history.

[Turley]

7. I can buy this argument too

anti-religionists run riot. Every bit as dangerous as the fundamentalists. Just wonder why we can't find a happy medium.

[bryant69]

12. To be fair, America has like tens of thousands of chistian conservatives

and dozens of people who are anti religionist. As a believer I disagree with those who hate organized religion or want to destroy it. But to pretend they are an equal problem to religious fundamentalism is not entirely accurate.

Bryant
Check it out-->http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[tx_dem41]

14. We have found a happy medium.....the First Amendment

Public citizens can worship as they wish. Governments cannot establish a religion.

[MadHound]

22. How's this for a happy medium for you.

No religious displays that use public space or public funding in the course of the display.

Sorry, but I'm a big believer in the seperation of church and state, and a religious display of any sort on public space, with public money, is simply leading us down that proverbial slippery slope. Christians will rationalize that if we allow Christmas displays, why not a set of the ten commandments on the courthouse lawn? Or in the courthouse? And on and on it would go.

Besides, if we're going to allow Christian displays, we would have to allow other religious displays. And do you honestly think that people would stand still for a Muslim display during Ramadan? In this xenophobic atmosphere that we're currently living in? How about a Satanic display? Or a pagan one? The list goes on and on, and quite frankly it is best left at the original intent of the founding fathers, seperation of church and state period.

And it isn't like there is a shortage of places to put a nativity display. Most cities have at least one church every few blocks, and a plethora of businesses that put up Christmas displays, and private citizens that also put up Christmas displays. It is omnipresent during this season, and quite frankly, that is fine with me, as long as it isn't done on public property, with public money.

And quite frankly, I'm getting sick of Christians playing the victim in this country. Sorry, but Christians haven't been persecuted in this country ever. In fact the opposite is quite true, that Christians have been the ones doing the persecuting. Gays, aetheists, pagans, agnostics, Muslims, African Americans, Native Americans, and on and on ad nauseum are the examples of persecution performed by Christians, all in the name of the so called religion of peace. For such people to come calling out persecution when we're simply enforcing the laws of the land. At best it is jingoistic hypocrisy, at worst, blatant lying and demonization of those of us on the left, and non-Christian.

Christians and conservatives are using these imagined slights and faux persecution claims as a political club in order to advance their agenda. They wield it to demonize those on the left, and to advance their radical RW fundy agenda. If you folks are in favor of this, fine, that is your decision. But you will be faced with a determined opposition, for there are still those of us out there who are opposed to the shredding of the Constitution and the advent of religious rule in this country.

[Turley]

28. What about the other slippery slope?

Admittedly Hound I'm playing Devil's advocate here a bit as I'm not a religionist myself. I can however appreciate that there are religionists who ask themselves how long it will be until it's illegal to say "Merry Christmas" to someone in their office. They see the slippery slope as the one which begins with no displays on Gov't property, continues on to no displays anywhere in public, and ends up with a ban of religion ala Stalinist Russia.

Not that you and I think that we're headed for a ban on religion. But from the religionists perspective, it's also a case of "give them an inch and they'll take a mile". That there are elements of the fringe left who actually would like to ban religion gives them a sort of confirmation in this view.

[MadHound]

29. Then I would say to those people that they're being paranoid cranks

Who are watching way too much Faux news, O'Reilly, Hannity, Rush, et al.

I would also tell them that they are protected by the Constitution too, once again, the church/state seperation, and freedom of speech.

And quite frankly, I've never heard of anybody in this country that wants to ban religion. Yes, there might be one or two, here or there, but those folks are far outweighed by the number of Domionists, RW fundies, etc who want and are actively working towards a theocracy in this country. And some of those theocratic folks are in high places currently in the Bushco misadministration.

Sorry, but these people always have to have something to fear, something to hate. If they can't find anything, they'll make the shit up as they go along. I think that that is what is really pushing the RW fundies button this year, they control all of our national government, so they're making up shit to keep themselves scared and feeling persecuted. And the MSM and those who are in power keep right on encouraging it, because it keeps their base agitated and headed in the right direction.

[renaissanceguy]

26. Not true.

I just don't want MY tax dollars going toward property that endorses religion.

If you want it on your lawn, that's fine, I have no problem with that. But not on public property. Ask yourself this...how would you like it if a satanic spectacle was placed on public property? And don't give me that "Christians are the majority" B.S. This country was founded on an individual's religious freedom, so everyone has the right to their own beliefs. The constitution specifically says that the government shall establish no national religion. Thus, either they allow ALL faiths to use public property equally, or they let none. They must treat all equally.

-----------------------------
JESUS W. BUSH and other outspoken and funny political merchandise at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[China_cat]

3. Because Germany has a State religion

the US doesn't. In fact, the US has a binding document that says the government can't endorse any religion.

[Turley]

8. That's not correct. nt

[China_cat]

11. What's not correct about it?

That Germany doesn't have a state religion? Or that the US does?

When a government collects taxes that are specifically for the church, that is a state religion, unlike the illegal funneling of tax moneys into the churches that is going on here.

[Turley]

19. Explain to me

how the Kirchensteuer is an example of establishment of a government religion. If the Gov't collects Church taxes (tithes) from multiple religions, which of those religions is then the State Religion?

[China_cat]

20. The one they give the most money to.

[Turley]

21. Apparently

you don't have anything intelligent to say on the topic.

[Bronco69]

4. Well, I can only tell you my take on it.

"What, in fact, is the big deal about a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn?"

The religious nuts in the U.S. are dead set on taking over the country and running it according to their interpretation of biblical law. Basically if you give them an inch they will take a mile, so allowing them to put up a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn invites them to put up a ten commandments monument in the lobby of the courthouse which invites them to begin incorporating other ancient biblical laws on the rest of us which invites them to force their version of God on us which invites them to force all Americans to become christians which eliminates Jews, Muslims, and any other religion from being recognized in the U.S. Before you know it Patsy Robertson is President of the United States with Jerry Falwell as his Secretary of State.

[Turley]

5. I can buy this argument

Religious extemism run riot.

[Squatch]

6. I grew up in Bavaria

and moved to the US for college. One thing I miss is the "Gemuetlichkeit" of the Christmas celebration. Bavaria is a predominantly Catholic region of Germany and it would be weird not to see celebrations of Christmas from a religious standpoint.

My hometown (Augsburg) also celebrates the feast days of various saints on their respective days, such as St Michael, in public areas and buildings (the Rathaus and Perlacher Turm host this particular saint's holiday festival).

[Skidmore]

9. Displays for a holiday don't really bother me. What bothers me is

1. When religious groups try to legislate their theology. This where I believe our focus should be.

2. When other groups do not INSIST on displays in the same areas. Only allowing Christian symbols to be displayed concedes on the principle of equality. It is PUBLIC land and all should be represented.

[SheilaT]

10. The problem with such things in this country

is that we have separation of Church and State written into our founding document, the Constitution. We are far, far more religiously (and non-religiously) diverse than Germany is or ever was. And, as several others have pointed out, the other thing is that in recent years such displays have been used to cram religion down everyone's throat. And it's not as though there aren't plenty of churches for such displays.

[tx_dem41]

13. Religion sponsored by a Government bothers me. n/t

[keith the dem]

15. A Nativity scene on the courthouse lawn has lost it's meaning

With our separation of church and state, A courthouse nativity scene has no roots or base. The creche belongs in the church yard where its full spiritual and religious meaning can be expressed. I am involved with a live animal creche in a church yard, which has done amazing things to lead people to the church or consider the spiritual implications of the humble birth of a man who later would lose his life when he was accused of leading an insurgency against an imperial foreign government. I think the same scene on the courthouse lawn would be just a bunch of statues and animals.

[Bridget Burke]

16. The USA is a more diverse society

And we do have that Church/State separation in our Constitution. My own city (Houston, Texas) has no shortage of non-religious holiday decoration on public land & no shortage of religious imagery on private proprety. This situation has prevailed for some time, with no problems. The recent controversy is an artificial issue raised by the worst of those who have shoved religion into politics.

And we do have a fair number of Jews in the USA. That's no longer true in Germany, is it?

[Squatch]

17. "More diverse"

Would you mind telling us how you measured that?

[Turley]

27. Ich glaube

die Dame ist etwas Ahnungslos.

[Squatch]

31. Genau so wie die meisten wer hier

schreiben

[Turley]

24. What's with the Jew comment

"And we do have a fair number of Jews in the USA. That's no longer true in Germany, is it?"

What does that have to do with our discussion?

[Bridget Burke]

30. It means that you have a smaller number of non-Christians

To complain.

Just history. I'm sure your family was innocent.

[Turley]

32. Well Bridget

My Granddad drove trains between Alabama and Tennessee during the war. His wife worked as a riveter in an airplane factory. My other Granddad worked for DuPont in Louisville during the war and his wife was a homemaker. My great-Uncle (through marriage) lost about a dozen cousins, aunts, and uncles in the death camps.

I don't know if that makes them innocent but thank you soooooo much for the kind words anyway. For a moment there I thought you were just being a smartass making a very gratuitous reference to Jews which had/has little to do with the issue at hand. Guess I could have been mistaken.

And in case you're actually interested in discussion and not just making snide remarks, Germany has a great many more non-Christians than the U.S. percentage wise and the negligible percent of Jews in America (1% maybe?) would not change that basic fact.

Guess you'll have to think of something else.

[Walt Starr]

18. Does Germany constitutionally prohibit the government from this?

Such displays being paid for by the government are prohibited by the first amendment to the constitution in the United States.

[Turley]

23. The German constitution

stipulates a separation of church and State, and that the State must remain neutral in affairs of the Church.

[sherilocks]

25. Study German History prior to WWII for the answer to your question

"What, in fact, is the big deal about a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Other countries pull this sort of thing off with no problem. So what's our problem?"

Many German Jews assimilated into the christian culture of Germany. They felt no threat in doing so. When Hitler came to power, things changed, as we all know. History is replete with examples of what can happen when state and religion are not kept firmly separated. Our Constituion, in the infinite wisdom of our founders, keeps that line drawn, and that's where it should stay. There are plenty of churches, private homes, etc. where people can display symbols of their religious beliefs, but not on state owned property or with taxpayer dollars.