I'm angered by soldiers saying they are fighting for their country

[glarius]

Does anyone else get ANGRY when they see the people on TV (soldiers & civilians alike) sending prayers and good wishes to the soldiers in Iraq? I'm not angry at the good people who are sending their prayers, but at the CRIMINAL NUT CASE in the White House and his minions who are responsible for this insane, illegal war and the horrible casualties suffered by young Americans and thousands of Iraqis!....Every time I see a soldier's loved one saying how proud they are of the fact that their soldier is "fighting for his country" I yell at the screen...."Don't you see the truth?...your loved one is being sacrificed for NOTHING!.....I hope I don't sound as if I'm badmouthing the soldiers...I have nothing but sympathy for them....They are young and idealistic and believe the lies they have been told!....It's so sad that it makes me angry....

P.S...I hope I made my feelings clear. I thing the young soldiers are so brave and it INFURIATES me to see them wasting their lives on this mess!

[Jesus H. Christ]

1. "freedom isn't free"

Drives me up the wall.

[4morewars]

3. "Better to fight them there...

than to fight them here !" Is another one that just boggles my mind.
WTF ? Didn't we use this same bullshit to keep the illegal war on VietNam going ? And why, exactly, is it better ? Anyone ?

:wtf:

PS: Happy birthday Jesus ! :hi:

[Wright Patman]

6. Cuz of the oil

Vietnam never had much in the way of proven reserves offshore. Iraq is already known to have reserves qualifying it as "gas station to the world" along with Saudi Arabia.

[tsuki]

65. There are some who think Saudi Arabia has peaked, and now Iraq sits

on the largest oil reserves.

[shrike]

2. It's made me lose much of my concern for our troops

and their families. Particularly if the reports on the military vote are accurate -- they wanted Bush, they wanted this war, so suck it up. That's how I've been feeling lately.

[WebeBlue]

26. Oh, please don't lose concern for the troops due to false news reports

by now it should be very abundantly clear that the news reports the "feel good" stuff when it comes to the troops....there are more that aren't hooah for B***'s war than are, and they've been trapped into the necessary survival mode to endure. It seems more now they are forming a sub-culture of brothers in arms and trying to live daily life under the very real conditions they face... it all belongs at B*** feet, and that is where it should remain. My 2 cents.

[shrike]

46. I suppose you are right, but ...

we've had more than a few soldiers, either on-leave or permanently home, speak to school groups and others in our area. Their message is usually that the news reports are false, the media is failing to report the good things in Iraq, and that the majority of U.S. troops and Iraqis support their mission.

I realize the brainwashed few are probably on a PR blitz, but still, it is disheartening.

[bunkerbuster1]

32. WHAT reports on the military vote?

If you've seen any polling info on how the grunts on the ground voted in Nov., I'm all eyes.

I've not seen anything, which I find most curious.

Now if you're asking how the military as a whole tends to vote, well, there's no surprise there.

[0007]

4. .....yeah, and the soldiers in the hospital with missing legs and

arms and no eyes all wanting to go back and war some more. Gimme a fucking break.

Your feelings are quite clear. I come unglued when I see the Armed Forces Commercials on TV recruiting young men to join and be a proud warrior. "The Good, The Proud, The Marine" I can't mute my fucking set fast enough these days.

[Ms_Mary]

33. Yep. I was talking to a marine today

My elderly ex-marine friend was in here today. Initially, with the WMD claims, he was behind the war. Now, I don't think he feels the same way. He said he'd be useless in the state he's in but that he wished he could take the place of just one of those young men. You may not read it that way, but from a man who's been ALL MARINE for the last 50-something years, that was a strong statement.

[American Tragedy]

68. Well, not all old soldiers feel that way by any means

My grandfather was deeply opposed to this war, and really resents it when people try to compare Vietnam or Iraq to WWII. He feels that the war in which he participated and nearly perished really was in the defense of the country and the free world, and this is merely another sham and a waste of human lives.

[demnan]

5. Poor people!

In a few years they will feel like we feel, then the country will rise up and insist this war be over.

Shades of Vietnam.

[JerseygirlCT]

7. It's the "they're fighting for our freedom" bit that engrages me

No, thanks, they're not. And not doing much for Iraqi's freedom either, it would seem.

Come home, avoid starting pointless wars and pay attention to the bill of rights... THAT might be doing something for my freedom.

[flordehinojos]

8. yes ..... angry to the point that a friend's son who is in the army, was

in iraq and is getting ready to ship out to iraq again, will not come by because he does not want to hear my, "i support the troops coming home now ... no soldier needs to be there fighting for bush's greedy hands, his greedy oil, his greedy power, his bastard lies and you have the right to think for yourself and say 'no'. you have the right to tell them you are not going back." i told him this upon his return from iraq. his father was here recently and said that the boy (young man) would be coming home for xmas but would then be shipping out and he would come by to say hello... i said to the father, i think he will probably find a way to avoid coming. i know he does not want to hear what i have to said. i already said once and i will say it again." my nuclear family tells me i should shut up. i tell them i will never, ever, shut up about the bastard in the white house.

[glarius]

10. Good for you for speaking out!....it must be hard for the young soldiers

like your young friend....They are perhaps afraid to speak up for fear of punishment???....It must be confusing for them too....

[flordehinojos]

24. from what i've been able to understand through the father, our friend, it

is a lot about "group think", and about a sense of "betraying the others who won't or can't say 'no'"-- which is ludicrous because if enough of them start to say 'no', many more of them will perhaps find their back bone to say, "NO!" ... it is sort of like, if you know what you stand for, really and truly basically stand for,you can't be pushed around by group think and you leave room for the others to begin to think about what they really stand for.

[WebeBlue]

28. Need help to address then the B****** in the White House?

Cause telling the troops they are in the wrong isn't getting the message to the man in the white house who initiated and will perpetuate this ongoing war. It seems no win for the troops, with so many telling them they volunteered so do their jobs (so the rest of the country's young won't have to) and then so many telling them they are in the wrong to be fighting in this war....there must be a middle ground here someplace that gives a message to the troops that it is the CIC who is in the wrong. I don't think many of the troops that volunteered for military service, thought they were volunteering for this war. And once enlisted, with stop-loss, extended tours, second and third tours, re-activating they can't easily get out of the service...they are trapped in this vicious cycle unless they are killed, seriously maimed and there isn't much of way out.

[CarbonDate]

43. Maybe you should just welcome him home

He's going through enough shit over in Iraq, he doesn't need to hear your lectures on top of that.

For fuck's sake. How about just listening?

[flordehinojos]

44. i am sure he's got a lot of people listening ....

don't know that anybody is TELLING HIM HE CAN SAY NO.

[CarbonDate]

48. No, he can't say no.

Not unless he wants to go to Leavenworth. Pick your poison, I suppose, but he's in a no-win situation.

[flordehinojos]

49. he can claim conscientious objector status (a few have and have turned

themselves in and have suffered whatever consequences)... a few have claimed only child status ... a few have gone to Canada ... and if enough of them stand up and say NO, together (insuburdination?) what would bush do? Shoot them all? Then he would be no different than Hitler or Fidel Castro (which actually he is no different from) but it would come out more--and I don't think he is quite ready to show his truest colors yet.

[WebeBlue]

58. It's not so easy to get Conscientious Objector status once enlisted

(for flordehinojos) and while a few (count on one hand) have been able to file all the necessary paperwork, it is often rejected as "after the fact". The one that did get CO status wound up going to Canada, where he is now facing Canada's laws which require hearings. It's also not easy to get into Canada now, and to my knowledge only 2 soldiers are there via underground railroad = Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey. This is a whole new ballgame, not the 60s and not so easy to dodge...give the kid a break and lighten up. I agree with an anti-war stance and invite you to speak on his behalf, using your own voice.

Military Families Speak Out http://www.mfso.org/ why not join and speak out.

[flordehinojos]

62. thank you for the invitation; however, i can speak TO my friend, but I

can't speak FOR him.

[brainshrub]

9. Any soldier who dies in Iraq wasted his life.

It's so sad. They are fighting to create a puppet client-state for our oil companies.

I have no mercy toward the independent contractors who are in Iraq to make a buck. My attitude is summed up in the following dialog from the movie: "Clerks"

RANDAL: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms.

DANTE: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction?

RANDAL: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed - casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.

WORKER: Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?

RANDAL: The ending of Return of the Jedi.

DANTE: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.

WORKER: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.

RANDAL: Like when?

WORKER: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.

DANTE: Whose house was it?

WORKER: Dominick Bambino's.

RANDAL: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?

WORKER: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.

DANTE: Based on personal politics.

WORKER: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.

RANDAL: No way!

WORKER: I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky… You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this...(taps his heart) not his wallet.

[itzamirakul]

66. Excellent scene!

I agree with the premise so much. I cannot find much sympathy for those contract "guerilla soldiers" that go to Iraq to "rebuild." Iraq is filled with experienced men who could have begun the rebuilding process, but we had to ship in men at $100,000 tax-free? We could have hired a thousand Iraqis for one Haliburton contract worker.

Also, does the rightwing think we are too stupid to see that they are using guerilla soldiers to make up for the lack of real soldiers? That in the end, they are trying to totally "privatize" the entire army?

[nascarblue]

11. It completely pisses me off. This whole anti-patriotic crap is nonsense.

Especially when I read some soldiers blogs from over there. Even guys who are there, who have some decency, get shunned. It's like you have to act like a delusional freeper to get by out there. Its just foul. Fighting for our country' Pulease!

Plus, anyone else sick of hearing these ridiculous stories from Dubya about the "democratic" Afghani elections? That's a crock. Here's a report about what really went down in the Afghanistan election. http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/12/1347201

Reporter said the election was a "farce"

[stray cat]

12. We train them, pay them, give orders, send them and prosecute them.

I think they can safely say they are fighting for us as Americans. We may not agree with the war objectives but there is no doubt they are fighting for us.

[dbt]

13. The soldiers have to cope somehow.

If it takes the rationalization of "I'm fighting for my country," so be it. If they don't have that, some damn nasty questions might begin to surface.

They may begin to surface anyway in the coming months.

:shrug:
dbt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. I think the number of soldier suicides shows that it does

Marine suicides are at the highest since the war began.

[Patiod]

22. I think you nailed it. People can't take cognitive dissonance

(see I did remember one thing from Psych 101).

They need to think this to survive, as do their families.

[MisterP]

31. like Col. Tibbits; if he couldn't be dragged out by militarist rallies

to tell how he saved billions of lives or whatever numbers Curtis LeMay pulled out of his arse, he would probably have jumped off a bridge by now

[Ms. Clio]

14. It makes absolutely no sense

How do you fight for your country by blowing up another one that never attacked us or threatened us in the slightest? How does killing, torturing, raping and maiming hundreds of thousands of Iraqis protect us from people who never did anything to us at all?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glarius]

19. "Most of those soldiers don't feel like they're wasting their lives."..SAD

That's the pathetic part about it....They don't know the truth!

[wicket]

21. And you can read their thoughts how?

:eyes:

[catmandu57]

17. Yes

and it really hurts when the family of a dead soldier looks into the camera and with teary eyes state he died defending amerika and our freedoms.
In the end it's going to mean nothing, nothing, because ultimately this insane attempt at world domination will fail of it's own weight, and the Iraqi people will drive us out.

[Sparkly]

18. Two different things: "Fighting for" vs. "Defending" their country

They volunteered to fight for their country. They do what their country asks of them; in that sense, yes they are fighting for (on behalf of) their country.

But what rightwingers like to say is that they are "defending" their country, or they're fighting for our freedom, etc... The fact that it's not true is painful for their families to the point that I think some don't want to hear it or admit it, and that's a point the neo-cons easily exploit -- they pretend it's denigrating the soldiers themselves to say the war is a terrible mistake, and to say they didn't need to die.

To paraphrase General Clark, our soldiers are very good at doing what they're asked to do; it's up to the leadership to make sure what they're asked to do is good.

[HughBeaumont]

20. I never understood the whole "defending" anything . . .?

I mean, they make it sound like a band of a million Iraqis are going to come over, burn our constitution, capture Lancelot Link and Gunga Heart Attack Cheney (if ONLY), enslave our women and children and install unsafe playgrounds in the schools here if we don't set fire to their nation. That's never going to happen and it's utterly silly to think it will.

What exactly are you "defending"? You're defending corporate oil interests. You're defending old, fat, bald, rich white men's rights to exploit markets and get richer at the expense of your carcasses. Don't think for one SECOND you're defending MY "freedoms" or anyone elses for that matter. That misguided patriotism may work in West Chester Ah-high-Ah where they have unsavory relations with their bah-bles, cousins and livestock, but here in Cuyahoga Co., we find it to be a steaming pile of bullshit.

[Sparkly]

23. That's why they need to confuse the issue with 9/11 as much as possible.

They want people to believe the war in Iraq is somehow "defending" us against another terrorist attack.

[WebeBlue]

30. You got it, an expolitable nuance fighting/defending. n/t

[VioletLake]

25. Unfortunately,

right now the only people fighting for the U.S.A. are the people fighting homegrown fascism.

Our soldiers have been turned into hitmen. They're dying for the most despicable of goals.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. I think that's the only way they and their families can stand it

During the 1980s, I was involved in the anti-intervention movement, and every Wednesday noon, we leafletted in the college town where I was teaching. handing out summaries of the news from Central America that was not being reported in the corporate media.

One day, a young man came up to us and started railing about our "lack of patriotism" and how we had to "support President Reagan."

One of the men with me said that he was in the movement because he didn't want to see Central America turned into another Vietnam.

Then the young student really went ballistic. He started in about how "if we hadn't held the Communists back in Vietnam we'd be fighting them here on the West Coast now" and "if the liberals hadn't sabotaged the effort, we'd have won that war."

I interrupted, "I'm sorry, but over 50,000 young men of my generation died for no good reason."

The student became even more hysterical,"My brother did die for a good cause! He died to protect this country from the Communists!"

That's when I realized what was happening. He had probably been a small boy when his adored older brother was killed in Vietnam. The only way he could process it was to believe that his brother had died a hero in a noble cause. Sad.

I think that's what's going on with a lot of the soldiers and families now.

[glarius]

29. That's heart breaking.....nt

[Ms_Mary]

34. I think that's a lot of it too

If they admit it's for no cause, they lose hope. And they have to keep hope to survive.

[VioletLake]

36. What a despicable thing to do to someone -

to force them into a situation where they have to believe a lie in order to have hope to survive.

[Ms_Mary]

37. Yes, it absolutely is.

I don't know how it was intended, but the Christmas card we got from DH's best friend had me in tears. Said friend was in Kuwait waiting to go into Iraq when we last heard 2 weeks ago. It was a simple post card and on the front, was his 4 year old daughter wearing his solider hat in front of a flag and the caption said in huge letters "Peace on Earth."

[The_Casual_Observer]

35. Aw, let them if they want to. If they have to be there the can believe

what ever they want. After all, who would want to have to admit to themselves that they are risking their lives to secure oil fields for Texaco?

[VaYallaDawg]

38. Real tragedy would come if after all this death and destruction

the Iraqis go ahead and revert to a theocratic society, which is so possible in that part of the world. Then what in hell has all this been for? A war nobody understands? Trillions of dollars wasted in the process?

[VioletLake]

39. The "real" tragedy IS all this death and destruction.

Iraqis revert to a theocratic society? Do you think that's what the war is about? :eyes:

Plenty of people understand this war.

[Ms. Clio]

47. "Revert" means "return to"

Iraq has been a secular country for decades.

[qwlauren35]

40. I try not to be angered by...

ignorance.

But in reality, I think young men frequently have NO IDEA what's behind a war that they are fighting in. They just know what they are told.

I often feel very guilty at how little I have done to support the soldiers. And here is my fear. If I, and people like me, do not do what we can to keep in touch with US soldiers, then we cannot help them hang on to their sense of human decency.

I have no problems with anyone being angered by the government that got us into this mess. But I feel that it's very important to take a different position with the folks in the trenches.

It's one of the the things that Bush said that made Kerry look bad. Calling the war a mistake messes with morale. However, suggesting a corrected course might be a more appropriate tactic. We can't change the course - only the government can do that. But I truly believe that we can influence soldiers... so that they do not erupt into unnecessary and unprovoked violence.

[Disturbed]

42. The Glorious Leader...

said that Iraq will become a Democracy and that will spread in the ME which will make the world a safer and more peaceful place. Seems to me that is what most of the troops believe. For them to believe otherwise would shatter their resolve to kill the enemies of freedom.

[roguevalley]

41. I put my hatred where it belongs: on the old men and women that

made this happen. I don't blame the kids. I know ten of them personally. I have four in my family that could get drafted. I don't blame young kids trying to figure out how to LIVE with this shit. Blame the right people, my friends.

[dbt]

45. For REAL.

Well spoken, roguevalley! Never forget that old men start the wars and send young men and women to fight them!

Peace,
dbt

[tsuki]

67. Except in this war 70 year olds are getting called up.

[Sara Beverley]

50. Me too. It shows how brainwashed our military is. Saddam was no

threat to the US. He couldn't even fly over 2/3 of his own country.

[Ilsa]

51. I'm Jealous! They are fighting for THAT country, not mine!

Well, not really them either, huh? More like for Helliburton and the oil cos.

[derby378]

52. You might want to see this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1093856

[wadechinoy]

53. Unfortunately, men and women who are getting ready to go into battle

must believe they are fighting for something--otherwise, their chances of survival diminish due to low morale. They are in a very tough position right now, because in the back of their minds, they know the truth, but they must convince themselves there is a purpose so that they have some motivation. I feel for every one of them.

[saigon68]

54. Well I don't feel sorry at all.

Any one who joins up or re-enlists to stay in this cluster fuck will get a long dirt nap in the cold ground and I will say--- I TOLD YOU SO to the survivors.

There is NO GLORY in this WAR.

It is a MURDERING CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE run by the BUSH CRIMINALS and their neocon masters.

[Seabiscuit]

55. How can you be angry at young, ignorant, exploited robots?

[Undercover Owl]

60. They are over there, so be nice.

So what if some of those soldiers are misled?
Maybe they aren't mature enough to think it through.
Let's get them home right now, for goodness sake!

[Seabiscuit]

63. I agree - simply saying there's no reason to be angry at them.

They were definitely misled - and young and gullible enough to be misled. Not their fault.

[Lilith Velkor]

56. Just like gangbangers

Some of them are actually decent people, they just got sucked in when they were too young to know any better. Damn shame.

[Malva Zebrina]

57. sigh

It is such a dilemma. We know they are robots, brainwashed and we are told they certainly did not sign up to go to Iraq for the folly of their CIC and never expected to be thrown into a quagmire, much less without the proper protective equiptment and it pains us to hear of their deaths because they are Americans. Two from Maine were killed in the dining tent the other day, and that pains me greatly, as well as it pains me to think of the other American soldiers who were killed that day--and any day in this useless endeavor.

On the other hand--we also know someone is pulling the trigger, someone is dropping the bombs, and someone is spraying incendiary bombs at innocent children. We see the coward all dressed up in a military jacket and we hear the loud cheers of all those marines anxious to do his bidding, which we interpret, rightly or wrongly as the killing tens of thousands of innocent people, many if not most of them children and women. We hear there will be 2000 troops accompanying him at the inaugural, where he will "review the troops", and unprecedented action at an inaugual.

We know it is fascism. We wonder why our troops don't just walk out on him even though we know they will not or cannot.

We hear propaganda repeated over and over, almost every day from the darkened halls of our government. People who are bravely defending their own homes and families with all their passion, are now "terrorists" when there were no terrorists before we invaded.

We are torn apart--we suffer cognitive chaos with no escape from the gut churning tension since he has been elected by a majority of people in this nation to another four years of providing us with absolute hell.

I say/wish we stop it and bring them all home, now. My smallest bit of personal comfort is that I did try to stop it before it began as much as I could and do not lend my name to it now and I know there are millions like me,maybe even some of those troops.

[G_j]

61. I resist anger but...

Like many others I was prepared to go to jail during the Vietnam war.
After being denied CC status, I told the "shrink" at my draft physical that I would not cooperate and would go to jail if need be.
I was just extremely lucky that this one person seemed to sympathize with me and gave me a deferment.
I understand that my awareness of the situation went beyond most because of my education and certain teachers.
I will not condemn people who have been hoodwinked, but I do know that there are choices. For me prison would have been preferable.

[TWiley]

59. By publicizing these things,

they make gullible Americans complicit in the crime. It becomes "our" (or those who publicly glorify it) war, and not a war created by a few to enrich a small group of oil barons.

I guess a better way to put it would be to say that they are manufacturing accomplices. The type of accomplice that will ignore the obvious and simple truth to keep pride from being challenged. If I put a bumper sticker on my car, then I must fight extra hard to prove that I was right all along.

This whole thing makes me mad as hell. Watching cocky American soldiers kill and abuse Iraqi civilians on TV really pisses me off. They are doing this for me?

This racist mentality is pervasive. They are not humans, they are rug-heads, animals, heathens. In fact, they do not even love their children, and have no family values. Bla, Bla, Bla.

Once sold, the racist world view fits the entire republican agenda. American homosexuals are a notch above Iraqi heathens but far less deserving than married white christian heterosexuals with children.

The fact is that most Muslims are far more loving and peaceful than American Christians, and are far more dedicated to their values than we are. To them, greed and selfishness is a sin, and this is an abomination to the likes of bush, falwell, and robertson.

The whole thing pisses me off, and I am mad as hell about it.

[itzamirakul]

64. You speak for me as well...

I support the troops in that I support them to come home ASAP.

I, too, find it difficult to sympathize with any parent who says, I am proud of my child for giving his/her life to protect the country,
because I know they they have been totally brainwashed.

I don't believe in this war and I especially don't believe that young Americans are fighting and dying to save this country. I think they are fighting and dying for big money interests.