Vietnam vs. Iraq

[DireStrike]

Poll question: Vietnam vs. Iraq

How similar are they?

The main differences as I see them are in support for the resistance. Half the country was against us in both cases. In Vietnam, there was a uniting ideal behind the enemy forces - communism. There were also two major countries backing the Vietcong - China, with tides of troops, and Russia, with... well, I'm not exactly sure.

In Iraq there is no unifying ideology - those opposed range from sunni to shia, kurd to christian. Some are moderates, some radical. The stronger the insurgency becomes, the more apt it is to begin infighting as it looks like success is imminent.

In Vietnam, territory was held and fought over. In Iraq, we technically hold all the territory, and the actual landscape of power distribution depends merely on how we shift our forces.

It took many years for the death toll in Vietnam to reach 1000. It has taken just about 1 year in Iraq. Does this translate to thousands of deaths as the fighting continues? Or will this continue to occur in this spread - out method?

[Sirveri]

1. I don't think they're quite the same, but the result could be the same.

Basically, we in theory don't have the Russians providing the resistance with weaponry. We don't have a magic line that we can't cross. And I think that the admin actually wants to crush the opposition and doesn't have any qualms about going all out to do so. Including going into Mosques and shooting small kids on the street. I'm just waiting for the armored bulldozers to come out.

[StClone]

2. Oil and Strategic Middle Eastern Bases

Cross out Communism backed by two countries and write in Oil and Bases.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Iraq is much worse.

Vietnam was a geopolitical game for the US, on the fringe of its interest. And still it took 58,000 American and millions of Vietnamese lives before it was over.

Iraq will never be over, because dominating the diminishing oil reserves of the Middle East is the core of US interest. It's the centerpiece of empire in the New American Century. This war - and it will not be contained to Iraq - will not be over until the American Empire falls.

[amber dog democrat]

6. And the sooner it fails the better.

I no more support this empire and its aims than I would if we were Germany or Japan seeking to get cortrol of vital resources they did not have either.

This war did not need to happen and we will be paying for it for generations to come.

[Pepperbelly]

39. aren't you Mister fucking Sunshine!

:(

[tk2kewl]

4. Even military stratagists are saying it is worse than Vietnam

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2860390

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. I think they are the same

in that both have created a lot of psychological casualities. Although they say that the military is more aware of PTSS now, I still see a lot of returning vets doing without any kind of help or aid. Sadly, there are homeless Iraq War Vets just as there have been homeless Viet Nam War vets as well. With the Administration policy of sending severely wounded soldiers back to the front as soon as they can, I can only see the stress these poor people are under getting worse and worse.

[Sparkly]

7. There are many similarities, but the draft is what made Vietnam so hated

In both cases, there's no military solution, and the political situation is fubar -- your basic quagmire.

But during Vietnam, the draft made the war hated here at home. Also, the fear of communism was not as huge (I don't think) as the fear aroused by 9/11. So this neo-con nationalism that says "We're bad, we're tough, don't mess with us" is something a lot of people seem to get behind now.

I think if there were a draft, it'd change rapidly.

[diamond14]

13. oh bull....the fear of communism was GIGANTIC...it justified shooting dead

innocent students on 4 college campuses....many Americans felt that the Kent State students DESERVED to be KILLED...."communism" had become the big scare in America...today, just substitute bush* word "terrorism" and you have it all over again....notice the close comparision in Governor Rhodes "the worst type of people we HARBOR in America" and the bush* idea of "harbor" terrorists....


May 3, 1970
The conservative Republican, pro-war, Ohio Governor James Rhodes arrived at KSU for a tour of the damage and a news conference. Rhodes was facing a tough May 5 US Senate primary election and he was behind in the preelection polls.

This desperate politician exaggerated the situation to further his own political election and career. He condemned the Kent students as "the worst type of people we harbor in America . . . worse than the Communists . . . We're going to eradicate the problem!"



May 4, 1970




A total of 67 bullets were fired by the guardsmen from the hilltop. Most of the bullets were fired over 300 feet into the distant Prentice Hall parking lot. Two of the students killed, Allison Krause and Jeff Miller, were protesters. Two others, Sandy Scheuer and Bill Schroeder were bystanders. Jeff was killed 275 feet away from his killer. Allison was 350 feet away. Sandy and Bill were approximately 390 feet away.

Nine others were wounded. Dean Kahler remains in a wheelchair after he was shot in the back.

[Sparkly]

14. Do you really think most Americans agreed with the KSU murders?

I don't think fear of communism was so immense that most Americans lauded that day. I don't believe people were convinced by that defense. It was a shock, and some consider it a turning point. And the youth movement, including on that campus, was intimately related to the draft.

I said "I don't think" the fear of communism then was as great as the fear of terrorism from 9/11 now, despite its being the justification for the war (and even for KSU). There was a many-faceted social struggle that played out on a lot of levels that frightened and angered people at least as much as communism did, and the anti-war movement was part of it. But imho, people were no longer so persuaded by fears of communism in the same numbers and fervor that they're currently persuaded by fears of terrorism.

That's what I think. I disagree with you -- without calling what you think "bull."

[diamond14]

16. YES. Americans were so afraid of communism that they re-elected

dick "I'm not a crook" nixon in 1972 by an OVERWHELMING majority....much much larger than the slim slim bush* man-date on the 'terrorism' platform....

so TWO and a half years after Kent State Massacre....Americans were still afraid that the 'communists' from North Vietnam would overwhelm the world, if we didn't keep up the daily carnage in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia....Americans WANTED nixon to HIT THOSE COMMUNISTS HARD....14 years of American Military propaganda brainwashed MOST Americans into the fight against 'communists', those 'communists' are going to land in Nebraska and kill us...better to fight those 'communists' over there, than in America....

bush* cabal shows NO originality in their whole Iraq brainwash pogrom...it's EXACTLY the same as Vietnam, with the word 'terrorist' substituted for 'communist'....and Americans were EXTREMELY AFRAID during Vietnam, so scared that they re-elected the crook nixon, despite his crimes....to protect us from the 'communists'....

at the same time, nuclear weapons production ESCALATED...exceeding 5 TRILLION dollars to protect us from COMMUNISTS (like Russia)...a total insanity that continues to this day... the reaguns insanity ramped up the expenditures for NO REASON other than to FEED THE PRO-WAR, war-profiteering reTHUGlicans.....

I was at the University of Michigan from 1968-1972. So many Americans claimed that anti-war protestors were "worse than communists", just like the Ohio Governor said....Many Americans, especially the WWII generation, felt strongly that the Kent State Protestors HAD TO BE KILLED...that the Governor was justified...nixon called them 'communists'....these radical pro-war republicans never even considered that MOST of the students that were KILLED and injured were NOT EVEN PROTESTORS....all were Kent State Students, even though MANY MANY news reports claimed they were 'communists' who infiltrated that campus, NOT students....

communists were (and still are in the case of Cuba) DEMONIZED, just like today "terrorists' are the enemy....there MUST be an enemy to feed the gigantic pentagoons bloated war-profiteering industry, and keep the lumpenproletariat in front of their TV's.....


it is the FEAR OF COMMUNISM that nixon's 'swift boats liars' used in the 70's and THIS YEAR....spouting lies about JFKerry 'communist sympathizer'....that was their whole spiel, 'communist' 'communist' helping the 'communists'....obviously, that FEAR is still here strong, even after all these years, helping to defeat JFKerry...

[0007]

30. Vietnam wasn't about communism it was about Tungsten

Iraq isn't about Democracy it is about Oil.

[diamond14]

33. True...."communism"/"terrorism" is just that nebulous PR Spin....

you have to have a "boogie-man" to scare the lumenproletariats watching their reTHUGlican sponsored TV's.....it's best NOT to have any REAL and tangible 'boogie-man'...thus, never say 'tungsten' or 'oil', but brainwash the people into patrioticly sacrificing their own children for 'terrorism' or 'communism' concepts....sort of like 'ghosts' or 'faith'....

actually, BOTH wars are really about the gigantically bloated "WAR PROFITEERING" industries run by the pentagoon....

it's really about STEALING American taxpayers hard-earned money, in order to deliver that money to halliburton, bectel, lockheed-martin, SAIC, and others of the bush* cabal (previously known as the nixonian cabal....but it's mostly the same companies).....

[0007]

37. I didn't think you knew the difference, but you certainly do. Thank You

Funny thing our history books sure don't tell the truth and most Americans still believe it was those goddamn commies.

[bemildred]

8. Iraq is VietNam on steroids. nt

[ThorsHammer]

17. Well said

We've already got a similar guerilla situation there, which is next to impossible to win, and we've also created a lot of hatred within the ME and broken relationships with the rest of the world. Viet Nam was much smaller in scope. The new media (not MSM, but internet, AIM, blogs, etc) is also much more effective than the 1960s media.

[diamond14]

18. agree...Vietnam was much smaller in scope....Iraq is perpetual war...

bush* cannot let go of the OIL/GAS/Chemical Industry....

like catching a monkey in Africa....you put some food in a hole with a tiny entry for the monkey's hand...once the monkey reaches in and grabs the food (OIL), the fist can't get out the tiny entry hole...so the monkey scream and screams, CAUGHT...it's real easy....

and the CHIMP walked right into that trap in Iraq...the CHIMP will NEVER let go of that oil, NEVER.....

[Jacobin]

9. Where did you hear that we "hold all territory?"

Faux News?

snort.

We hold ONLY bunkers behind 20 foot blast walls, and then only precariously.

What a joke.

[DireStrike]

10. We claim to hold all territory.

Like I said, our actual territorial power is based on wherever our forces are located. We can easily respond to threats with airstrikes, heavy vehicles, etc. In a technical sense, we "control" the territory.

Of course this is completely meaningless. Anybody with a copy of the Art of War can fight on equal/better terms with us, even under these conditions.

[Jacobin]

12. Well, I "claim" to be the King of Siam.

Doesn't make it so.

We hold absolutly nothing. We blow shit up randomly in 'retaliation' for attacks which now number over 100 per day. That has nothing at all to do with 'holding territory'

This thing was lost before we went in. It is only now dawning on half of Americans that it can't be 'won'.

[Chef]

11. Iraq vs. Viet Nam

I think a comparison between these two is limiting. The basic similarity is that they were both bullshit wars which will eventually weaken and harm our country. Viet Nam was a civil war the government confused with a world wide struggle against communism in the cold war. Iraq is an unnecessary war fought for some reasons even Bush doesn't understand, but packaged as a world wide struggle against Islamic fundamentalism. But the weakening of America through its involvement Iraq, like Viet Nam, will take time to become apparent.

Another comparison would be that Iraq is our West Bank. An endless war.

The problem with both is that we learn (or don't) that we cannot use our immense power to control events in the world. Bush will leave office as a disgraced failure and a bum, much like Johnson. We will have spent billions of dollars and lost perhaps 4,000 lives and will spend the next 50 years arguing about whether we were right.

[ElementaryPenguin]

15. Incredibly, Iraq is much, much worse!!!

And that's saying something!

[rbnyc]

19. What's the difference between Iraq and Vietnam?

Bush had a plan to get out of Vietnam.

[mediaman007]

20. Every day they become more like each other

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. "Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam" Bumper sticker I saw.

There are large differences, however. The liberation forces in South Vietnam had the support of North Vietnam, which in turn had the support of the USSR and China.

Iraq has some support from the outside, but nothing dependable.

Still, I believe, the outcome will be the same.

[0007]

31. Before the election I saw a few bumper stickers that said

the same thing.

[fryguy]

22. Bush had plan to get out of Vietnam....

lol

[EmpireWeAre]

23. The biggest difference I see between the two wars

is the backing of a major military power. Russia and China backed North Vietnam. Viet Cong had an air force!
There is no major player backing the U.S. opposition in Iraq.

The U.S. goal is still the same in both wars; global hegemony, with Iraq having the major added bonus of resource control.

It would get really ugly in Iraq if a major military hardware producer poured money and hardware into the country.
Kind of like what America did to the USSR in Afghanistan.

If Russia or China started flooding Iraq with simple, relatively cheap weapons like shoulder mounted anti-aircraft missiles and 1-2 man tank killer weapons, the U.S. and Iraqi causality rates would skyrocket.
Just look at the damage being done with AK-47's, RPG's, mortars and homemade bombs. Now throw in thousands of portable weapons capable of taking out M1 tanks, Bradley's, helicopters and low flying aircraft.


Why does Georgie Boy play nice with Vlad "I looked into his soul" Putin?
Georgie plays nice with Vlad cause Vlad has Georgie by the balls.

[diamond14]

24. IMO, those weapons are arriving daily in Iraq...backed by MAJOR

military power....how the hell would bush* even KNOW, since commander-in-chief bush* can't even control the 10 miles to the airport or secure a major military installation or control Falluja (an empty wasteland).....

the incurious george is on the BIG chessboard now, and other MAJOR countries are making their moves....bush* looked at his "gigantic world map" and decided to take out Iraq, Iran and Syria and RULE the world...and the world reacted....and bush* hasn't even noticed yet, still 'talking' with himself on the pig farm in crawford...ignorant that others might react to bush* global terrorism and threats...bush* mind is too small to grasp that MANY other countries may indeed have an interest in the outcome of Iraq, and a quite different outcome than the one bush* fantasizes about....

[pscot]

25. Iraq is Viet Nam on steroids

This isn't war, it's vendetta.

[number6]

26. Iraq could be worse in this way ...

where Vietnam was war over a political philosophy
Iraq could spark a world wide religious war ....

[Darth_Ole]

28. On the whole, the similarities are striking...

Bush League has lied to us on nearly everything that's going on over there. This was also a poorly planned war and now we've become bogged down because of it.

Iraq is like Vietnam because it's become hard to distinguish friend from foe. I think it was Richard Myers yesterday who was saying that we can't tell the front line now because the front line could be a mess hall, a side road, or anything. It's like, "Gee, Dick, doesn't that sound familiar?"

The rhetoric is the same, too. The pacifists have been called unpatriotic. Also, we keep hearing that the war will be turned over to Iraqi soldiers. During Vietnam, we handed the war to the South Vietnamese and they crumbled in no time.

[FM Arouet666]

27. Better analogy is Iraq vs Soviet-Afghan war

With the Soviet-Afghan war the U.S. was indirectly confronting the Soviet Union, much as we did throughout the cold war. Providing arms and intelligence to the Mujahadeen. The current war pits the U.S. against the rest of the Muslim world. Rather than confront the U.S. directly, these countries can support insurgency with arms and money. There are various factions, but all are united by their religion and hatred of the United States. At least for the time being. Once the U.S. leaves the quagmire, these factions will collapse into civil war ultimately leading to some dictatorial rise to quell the anarchy.

Great foreign policy. The Neocons have sure made us a shining example of morals in the world. The only question I have is how many will have to die this time for a pointless war?

[Jesus H. Christ]

29. The outcome will be the same.

Thousands of dead US troops. Millions of dead civilians. Years of fighting. Eventual pull-out followed by wide-spread takeovers of anti-US forces.

The thing that really disgusts me is that people have their heads shoved so far up their asses that they believe things will get better the longer we stay.

[MrsCheaplaugh]

32. Only one difference...

While the Vietnamese were a unified people, the Iraqis are divided into kurds, sunnis, and shias. They spend as much energy fighting each other as they do Americans. But the only thing the three ethnic groups hate worse than each other is a foreigner. If the insurgents in Iraq unite under one leader, the American casualties will make Vietnam look like a teddy bear's picnic.

[idiosyncratic]

34. I think Iraq is worse than Vietnam was. n/t

[dean_dem]

35. In a sense, Vietnam was still somewhat a justifiable war...

While Iraq is completely unjustifiable. So Iraq is much worse.
Now, I still think the Vietnam War was a horrible mistake much like the Iraq War, but at least the cover story for the war was that we were responding to an aggressive act (invasion from North Vietnam) upon one of our allies. In Iraq we just showed up and started dropping bombs, and that whole preemption policy makes Iraq ten times worse.

That and our casualty numbers for a year and a half in Iraq are quickly approaching casualties for the first four years of the Vietnam conflict pre-Tonkin Resolution.

[Rainstorm]

36. As a Vietnam Vet

I see some similarities between the two wars. The very high causalities in 1968 and 1969 were mainly due to the fact that LBJ did not take the war to North Vietnam. He stopped the bombing of North Vietnam and never seriously made the Communists pay for fighting the war. We wound up fighting the war in Vietnam on the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong terms. A little bit like the war in Iraq now. We are dealing with the terrorists in Iraq on their terms. The bombing in the mess hall was a great example.

I don’t know how to fix the problem but that is my opinion.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

38. I don't believe Chinese troops actually fought against the U.S. in Vietnam

The support from the Communist nations was primarily money and materiel and logistics. But the prospect of millions of Chinese troops fighting against you in a conventional war was a sobering one in any anticommunist war in Asia, had a lot of political impact on the Korean War too.

[mcscajun]

40. There are similarities...

...but this one's falling apart MUCH Faster.

Misjudgment, mismanagement, misappropriation of funds.

Malfeasance.

Bastards.