HONEST CONSERVATIVE?

[swinney]

IS THAT NOT AN OXYMORON?

IF YOU KNOW AN HONEST CONSERVATIVE I WISH TO READ HIS/HER WRITINGS.

IT IS AWFUL WITH LOCAL CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS. THEY AVOID TRUTH.

I APPROACHED A GOLF PAL AND ASKED WOULD YOU LIKE TO READ MY LIST OF BUSH LIES(191).

His reply--no, he is my man.

Do not bother me with facts. Do not affect my mindset with truths.

NICE MAN. PILOT IN WWII. WILL NEVER ACCEPT BUSH AS DRAFT DODGER AND DESERTER.

SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE RONALD (MIND IN CONCRETE) REAGAN.

[sweetheart]

1. I'm a conservative

My buddhist beliefs suggest that doing less is better... sort of like lao tzu's remarks similarly to that effect in the "tao te ching".

I believe that less government is better. No wars except for self defense... a small military... respecting human rights and no government in the bedroom.

I think you better phrase your critique of "neocon's" rather than genuine conservatives. After discussing many political topics on DU, i've realized i'm a social libertarian with strong socialist beliefs in terms of government intervening on behalf of those disenfranchised by a corporate system... conservatives even support the strong separation of church and state, as well as effective campaign finance controls to prevent breaches in the constitution.

I think many of the swing voters in this coming election are going to be small "c" conservatives who finally realize that bush is nothing of the sort. Why attack them with such a hostile approach?

[ComerPerro]

2. I appreciate both positions

I think you are right that he was actually talking about the neo-cons. They are a scary group.

I know a conservative who is a really good guy. He was big on the "compassionate conservative" agenda.

But now he has come to question his beliefs.

[sarastro]

3. Trifecta

There's sort of a trifecta with conservatives.

The three variables are honesty, intelligence, and belief.

If a conservative believes and is honest, he is not intelligent.
If he believes and is intelligent, he is not honest.
If he is honest and intelligent, he is not a believer.

[ComerPerro]

5. Thats a great line

You've been a member since the new board came into effect, and you only have three posts?

Was that a quote or paraphrase from someone, or is that an original sarastro line?

I am just wondering because I want to steal it, and need to know who gets the credit.

[newyawker99]

11. Hi sarastro!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[jafap]

13. I am not sure about the intelligence part

Conservatives have a world view which is built upon certain postulates. If they study, they usually read reports which support their postulates.
I might quote Standard Shaefer's interview with Michael Hudson, which you can read at Counterpunch, but the site also says I need permission to use an excerpt. So to paraphrase Hudson says that graduate economics creates a theory which is logical and consistent but not realistic. Clearly there is a certain amount of intelligence required to understand and defend theories like that. So the missing ingredient is not really intelligence - it is more like information or perspective. The ability to see past your brainwashing to the real world. Then again, I do not want to make it sound like they are 100% wrong or I am 100% right. The world and its social problems are very very complicated.

[msmcghee]

14. I hate to admit it . . .

. . but re "The ability to see past your brainwashing" there's not much difference between the left and the right on that regard.

i.e we on the left also carry memes that may or may not accurately reflect reality. I'd like for someone to prove me wrong but many of the posts on this forum seem to support that view.

I think the basic difference comes down to the willingness of those on the left to include a wider group of humans in those they feel connected with (the homeless, the poor, etc.) - and we therefore open ourselves to memes that support that world view.

With a megalomaniac like Hitler at one end of the spectrum and Mother Theresa at the other - liberals are certainly much closer to the good healer than the despot. How much closer to Hitler is the right is open for argument - but these days I'd say they're getting pretty close.

[Darranar]

15. Replace "intelligent" with "politically aware"...

and you've got it.

[msmcghee]

6. So you are a "good" conservative

In case you hadn't noticed, some very bad people have hijacked the term "conservative". It no longer means what it used to mean. It's much like a corporate merger where the buyer gets the goodwill, logo and branding of the heretofore well respected name - and profits immensely until the public finally catches on - years later if at all - that it was all just bullshit marketing.

By calling yourself a conservative you are re-inforcing their memes and their power - despite your protestations.

Rather than cling desparetly to the definition that you think is correct - I suggest you figure out a way to clearly separate yourself from them (by finding a better label) - or you will suffer the consequences should there be a day a reckoning.

Especially, you should avoid accusations that DU'ers are attacking you - you choose to wear the label - you can't blame others for reading it the way it is currently being used by those attacking us.

Just a suggestion.

[sweetheart]

8. the english language

from dictionary.com... "conservative":

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.

4a. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
4b. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
5. Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
6. Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
7. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

I don't live in the USA, and i am not inclined to re-design the english language for political vogue. Go ahead and flame me... certainly i can and have tango'ed with the fire.. :-)

The behaviour of the people in office is called "neo-liberal" in the real english language. I prefer to stick to that language that has existed a millenia before the BFEE and will exist a millenia afterwards.

The people who will win this next election for the democrats, are in my opinion mostly defecting small "c" conservatives who will not tolerate being lied to and coup2000, lihop, can't-balance-the-chequebook, etc... etc... finally it is appearant that true conservatism does not motivate anyone who claims to be a large "C" conservative or a neo-con.... which i think will be remembered historically as fondly as the nazi party.

None of those things changes the definition of the word, or the veiled attempt to stereotype and brand people who come to DU curious about real truth in politics, people who might think themselves conservative and be really offended by this thread's lewd and unfocused diatribe when it really means NEOCON.

Fortunately, english does not change on the whim of a faux TV. ;-)

[msmcghee]

10. That's not a flame - it's friendly advice

But because I contradicted your meme (your emotionally held definition of what conservative means) you took it that way. That always happens when somone introduces an idea that does not fit with their memes. You can see this happening on DU all the time - like when someone here objects to fascists (who call themselves Xtians) putting monuments to the ten commandments in courthouses and then some Xtian gets upset and says their beliefs are being attacked.

Try to think past that. It is difficult I know. But they (the bad guys) have redefined the word conservative. (Added on edit: Just like the fundies have managed to re-define Xtian to a great extent.)

Now, mainstream media articles refer to them continuously as conservatives - Cheney, Bush, DeLay, etc. The sheep read that crap and remember only that conservatives represent some kind of steadiness, wisdom, etc. they think no further. It all becomes free reinforcement for the neo-con agenda.

This is insidious, pervasive and a lot more powerful and effective than almost anyone believes. It is most effective on those swing voters who are not really engaged in the politics of it all. That's why I felt it was important to bring this to your attention. It is not trivial.

By using their label and saying that it implies good qualities and values (which I agree it used to, to a great extent) you are empowering them and their agenda - they knew that good folks like you would jealously cling to that label long after they hijacked it. Karl Rove understands memetics very, very well.

I know you will disagree with this - but just think about it for a while. And please don't take offense. I'm sure you're a good guy (gal?). If we met at a party we'd have a great time talking about this stuff - I'm sure.


B-)

[sweetheart]

19. ok fine, i'm a libertarian socialist

Does that sound more DU image conscious? I agree that it has become a bad word in the media due to the perverts... and using it empowers "their" word... sadly.

Are you a scottish MacGhee? I'm in the MacKay clan area of scotland myself. Thanks for your post. I have become out of touch with the media pressures of the USA, and my language reflects it.

I'll lay low with the word conservative on DU out of respect to the fact that it indirectly supports neocon'victs... soon (hopefully) to be wearing their well earned day glow orange uniforms.

I just now filled out my expat voter registration card as a "democrat" to vote in the primary for DK.

Thanks for your wise advise.

cheers,
-s

PS. I'm sure we'd have a very fun chat at the party... perhaps someday i'll be back across the pond for a DU meetup and we can have a fun chat.

[msmcghee]

21. Libertarian socialist . .

. . I like that, I guess because it pretty well defines my philosophy as well. Please see my post below re: Goldwater.

I get carried away sometimes looking through the meme window. It seems so relevant at times it's hard to avoid. I probably go overboard a bit.

Not the Scottish MacGhee I'm afraid. The Irish side would be closer.

Cheers

[msmcghee]

12. In case you're still here.

I just found this article you might like to read. It shows that even the old definition for conservative was somwhat a PR job too.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html

Ooops - wrong link. Try this one:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/04/1062548961123.html

Sorry - Cheers

[msmcghee]

7. There's a good one in post 4 - paleo-conservative

Or paleo-con - that might work.

[htuttle]

4. Send your friend to lewrockwell.com

Maybe they can get through to him.

(note: I don't endorse many of Rockwell's opinions, but as is often the case with Paleo-Conservatives, he favors a non-interventionist foreign policy stance).

[Dob Bole]

9. Are there honest humans?

Once you have answered that question, you can then proceed to whether the ones who believe in a government philosphy of "free-market" economics are capable of honesty.

To me, honestly, this question is dumb.

[calm_blue_ocean]

16. I would try Joseph Sobran.

He represents better than anyone else the break between neocons and earlier conservative ideology. He is right about a lot of things. He was ahead of his time about a lot of things.

His recent columns seem politically discouraged. He is retreating into the arts and his family life (subjects upon which his writing is less compelling IMHO).

[jafap]

17. does he perhaps care more about policy?

That is, if a person favored war with Iraq, why should he/she care if a leader lies to get other people to do the right thing - attack Iraq. It may be the same with tax-cuts.
On the other hand, you could perhaps find a Clinton supporter in 1996 and ask them if they would like to read a list of Clinton's lies. Or find a Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman supporter and see if they are interested in reading about the lies that their candidate has told. Any such discussion is likely to go around and around and require alot of digging to determine if those really were lies and ultimately it may be a moot point because your friend is going to support the repukes anyway because he is anti-abortion or pro-gun or pro death penalty, etc. Plus he/she does not want to pay taxes on his/her dividends.

[kodi]

18. barry goldwater, but he's dead.

Quotes from Goldwater:

"Every good Christian should line up and kick Jerry Falwell's ass."
"I don't have any respect for the Religious Right."

"A woman has a right to an abortion."

"The religious factions will go on imposing their will on others,"

"I am a conservative Republican," he wrote in a 1994 Washington Post essay, "but I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process."

In 1994 he told The Los Angeles Times, "A lot of so-called conservatives don't know what the word means. They think I've turned liberal because I,, believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That's a decision that's up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right. It's not a conservative issue at all."

Goldwater, an Episcopalian, had theological differences with greedy TV preachers. "I look at these religious television shows," he said, "and they are raising big money on God. One million, three million, five million - they brag about it. I don't believe in that. It's not a very religious thing to do."

But Goldwater was also deeply worried about the Religious Right's long-term impact on his beloved GOP. "If they succeed in establishing religion as a basic Republican Party tenet," he told U.S. News & World Report in 1994, "they could do us in."

In an interview with The Post that same year, Goldwater
In a Sept. 15, 1981, Senate speech, Goldwater noted that Falwell's Moral Majority, anti-abortion groups and other Religious Right outfits were sometimes referred to in the press as the "New Right" and the "New Conservatism."

Responded Goldwater, "Well, I've spent quite a number of years carrying the flag of the 'Old Conservatism.' And I can say with conviction that the religious issues of these groups have little or nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics. The uncompromising position of these groups is a divisive element that could tear apart the very spirit of our representative system, if they gain sufficient strength."

Insisted Goldwater, "Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedoms that document protects....
"By maintaining the separation of church and state," he explained, "the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars .... Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers? Can anyone look at the carnage in Iran, the bloodshed in Northem Ireland, or the bombs bursting in Lebanon and yet question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of state:"

Goldwater concluded with a warning to the American people. "The religious factions will go on imposing their will on others," he said, "unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy. They must learn to make their views known without trying to make their views the only alternatives...

"We have succeeded for 205 years in keeping the affairs of state separate from the uncompromising idealism of religious groups and we mustn't stop now," he insisted. "To retreat from that separation would violate the principles of conservatism and the values upon which the framers built this democratic republic."


http://www.concentric.net/~Tycho4/Goldwatr.htm

[msmcghee]

20. I voted for Goldwater . .

. . in the first presidential election I was old enough to vote in (1964).

He said: "The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process."

I believe today that our democracy (not just conservatism) is based on that principle. The main disagreement I'd have with Goldwater, were he alive today, is that I see a greater role for government in assuring the common good, than the old conservatives did.

i.e. I don't see taxes as an unjust burden on society - simply as the way to pay for those things that we wish to fund as a society, rather than individually. We can always argue about what those things should be but the right to live life as one pleases is still the core of democracy - IMHO.