Abortion situation, only vaguely hypothetical.

[kaitykaity]

I'm a little concerned about my reaction. Want to nip this
in the bud if at all possible.

A "friend" knows this guy who was living with a gal. The gal
gets pregnant and admits it was to trap the guy into a more
permanent arrangement. He tells her get an abortion or get out.
She gets the abortion.

Who is more disgusting in this situation?

I know the guy only second-hand, have met him once. Don't
know the woman at all. (A "friend" of mine is a friend his.
What he did made me sick.)

[Ms_Mary]

1. The whole thing is disturbing. nt

[amazona]

2. It happens

Believe me, it is better that it happened this way than if a baby ended up being born into this situation.

A friend of mine played this trick of forgetting to take her birth control pills. She said outright it was to trap her rich boyfriend into marriage. However, she was on other medication, including a medicine known to cause deformities in babies. Her doctor was horrified and was able to talk her into getting a termination in time to prevent an awful tragedy. This friend has had 5 abortions that I know of. Yes, it is sad, yes, it's a little icky. But it would be far worse if she were raising these children and running her evil mind games on them. We could have had 5 more sociopaths in the world.

Some situations are just ugly no matter how they play out.

[jellybelly]

8. so sad!

5 abortions! She didn't learn the first time? Why do women have unprotected sex? I know it's also the responsibilty of the man but she is the one who will either have to carry the baby to term and raise it or she'll be the one terminating it. Do some women want to make the man 'feel good' by letting him not use a condom? My best friend had 2 abortions. After screaming at her for hours I doubt she'll get pregnant again until she's ready.

[Ms_Mary]

19. That's insane. Instead of pregnancies, it could have been

HIV, herpes, hepatitis, genital warts, gonorrhea, syphillus... Why do people not take precautions? ANYBODY can have an accident, but 5 times says recklessness.

[amazona]

35. my friend is not about making the man feel good

I really don't want to tell the tale of why my friend got 5 abortions. We'd be typing all night. Let's just admit: There are women sociopaths. Yes, they are very rare, but they happen, and this was my chance to get a close-up look at one. Why was she a friend? Because sociopaths can be very, very much fun to be around. I'm not trying to excuse myself, I'm just trying to be honest.

[LWolf]

3. Neither. Both.

Babies aren't a "trap," and a woman who purposefully uses her body, or a baby, as a trap is no better, or worse, than the man who uses abortion as a powertool in the relationship. Both are about power and manipulation.

Ideally, neither will become parents until/unless they learn to interact without the need to control others.

[kaitykaity]

5. Thanks for the clarity. Ideally you are right.

I absolutely don't want somebody like that anywhere near my life.
I think if I was horrified at anything it was that my "friend" was
so accepting of what the guy did without so much as a hint of
condemnation.

"It's all her fault." Uh, no. It's not.

[Ready4Change]

7. Both as well, but slightly different reasons.

For the lady I agree. Babies aren't to be used as a trap. And if you have to trap someone into a more permament relationship, you are NOT going to wind up with a good relationship.

On the guys part, preganancies require TWO people to not be using contraception methods. So it wasn't all her doing. He was leaving the birth control choice to her. That's his bad.

I agree that this was a bad situation for child raising. Neither of these people are currently capable of rearing a child well.

[LWolf]

48. It's too bad the ideal and the

pragmatic don't meet more often in reality, isn't it?

I am still a passionate, and, ocasionally, a defiant, idealist.

[annabanana]

25. bingo..............................n/t

[thom1102]

49. Amen!

[tavalon]

4. They both behaved abominably

and she has shit for boundaries.

[Malva Zebrina]

6. send him a package of condoms.

He has as much responsibility as the woman.

[sandnsea]

21. Exactly

When men take 100% of the responsibility for pregnancy, these problems will disappear. Maybe we didn't have so many abortions back in the 50's, not because they were illegal, but because the men were the ones who had to use the condoms to prevent the pregnancies. Just a thought.

[w4rma]

37. Certain things weren't talked about in the '50s. They still happened. (nt)

[sandnsea]

45. Who said they didn't?

I did't say abortion didn't happen in the 50's. Pregnancy rates are public record. All I'm saying is maybe when men were 100% responsible for pregnancy, it actually contributed to lower rates. Just a thought, that's all. How often do you hear about men trapping rich girls by getting them pregnant?

[Poppyseedman]

28. He has as much responsibility as the woman.

I would agree if the world was perfect, but it's not.

A guy can use a condom for protection, get up in the morning and leave after a hot one night stand and the girl still can get pregnant.

It happens a lot.

A man does not bear the consequences of a unwanted pregnancy until the baby is born. For nine months she will carry another human being or make the difficult choice of abortion. The girl is in a no win situation. The baby has no say so in the matter either.

She BETTER use birth control to control her own life just in case she meets Mr. old condom in the wallet for 5 years.

[Malva Zebrina]

29. Oh bullshit

HE better use condoms so as not to impregnate any woman, whether she uses birth control or not.

He certainly does bear the consequences of his unwanted pregnancy, and irresponsible behavior--from the very first.

No, she will not carry another human being. She will carry another potential human being with risks to her own health all because he failed to use a condom.

THIS is NOT a human being


He also, BTW, would carry a potential human being in his sperm as well.

[Poppyseedman]

46. In the real world, it works like this:

Man and women get drunk and horny, jump in sack. Make love like mad dogs. Man wakes up with killer hangover, leaves his sleeping beauty to her rest. Barely makes it out the door with his clothes on.

Sleeping beauty wakes up bangs her head against the door for being SO STUPID.

Sees doctor in two months to find out she pregnant with the drunk cads baby.

She says "damn that jerk for not using a condom" "I wish I didn't forget my pill"

She is left to make all the decisions and handle all the consequences.

Man for the most part are pigs and you ladies let them prove it almost everyday.

[eaprez]

9. She is......

....no one has the right to intentionally make someone a father who didn't sign up to be for her own selfish reasons let alone put the burden of holding a relationship together on the back of a child. Since I'm pro choice --- I don't see anything wrong with seeiing her for the manipulating, deceitful, looser she is --- BUT he should have told her not to come back. She's doubly foolish if she had an abortion on his orders and then went back to him. Obviously a desperate woman.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Take the abortion out of the equation

If you take the abortion out, most would fault her for being manipulative. He simply would not play along. She had the choice here, and she made it. Now, had it been an accident, then I would say he was more disgusting.

[bush_is_wacko]

11. They are both sick!

Unfortunately, only the woman will pay for her stupid choice. Abortion decreases the likelihood of successful pregnancies and leaves a raw scar on someones psyche when the reason she had the abortion starts to haunt her at some point down the line.

I am pro-choice, but I am profoundly disturbed by people who take that choice so lightly! The fact that this woman was willing to use pregnancy to get a man, then get an abortion when her plans didn't work out makes me glad she didn't keep a child that she didn't give a damn about in the first place, but her behavior is despicable!

The man, didn't need to tell her to get an abortion. And he didn't need to tell her he would marry her either. Ultimately though the choice was the woman's, stupid as she may have been!

[noamnety]

12. I don't think he did anything wrong

He didn't force her to get an abortion, he just said he wasn't willing to be part of a family situation, which is his right, especially if he had reason to believe she was using birth control. (I'm reading this as she misled him about using birth control.)

If she took responsibility for the decision to get pregnant, she owns the problem. She had a choice to:

1. terminate the pregnancy, or
2. raise the child herself - she still would have gotten child support from him.

Forcing someone to raise a child they don't want is not a third option.

[kaitykaity]

13. Disagree. He consented to a possible

pregnancy when he consented to sex. No birth control
is 100%.

If he didn't want a kid with her, he should have kept
his trousers zipped.

[noamnety]

14. Sorry but no.

Having sex is not a contract to raise a family, and even people that don't want kids are allowed to have sex.

[kaitykaity]

15. Allowed yes.

Sure, fine, whatever.

But there is responsibility inherent in the act because
of a possible pregnancy. If a man engages in the act, he
by definition accepts responsiblity -- if that's what
the woman decides.

If it wasn't rape, she isn't forcing anything on him
he didn't consent to when he said yes to sex.

[noamnety]

16. a metaphor

If you get into a car, are you consenting to having an accident? Or does consenting to having an accident only apply to sex?

[Misunderestimator]

17. A better metaphor... if you don't wear your seatbelt and you run into a

tree and go flying through the windshield causing your death...

[noamnety]

24. your metaphor is not right

Your metaphor is appropriate if they were using protection, which they were (to his knowledge). But this situation was more like he was using a seatbelt, and the owner of the car didn't tell him the buckle wasn't working. Anyhow, anyone saying having sex is a contract to raise a family is not talking about protection (a seat belt), they are talking about getting into the car (bed) in the first place.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to say anyone having protected sex is accepting responsibility for raising a child; it's nice of you to decide for the rest of us that people that don't want kids are obligated to die virgins.

Furthermore, I think - as a pro-choice feminist who has raised a family - that the attitude that the guy is at fault here, is the absolute worst of what feminism can be. It's a 100% anti-male stance that is completely pro-choice for the woman and completely anti-choice for the man, and I find it appalling. My feeling on abortion is that it's the woman's choice, because it's her body and financial future being put at risk. She gets to decide what she does with her life. But that does not mean she gets to decide what her boyfriend does with his life - that's his choice, and his choice alone (excepting any obligations the court places on him). It's outrageous to think a man should be able to impregnate me and force me to raise a child; I am equally outraged by a woman thinking she has the right to force a man into a situation of becoming a caretaker against his will. In this case, the woman decided she wanted to raise a child, the man decided he didn't.

Aside from all that, who wants their kid being raised by a dad that feels that strongly that they don't want them? If you feel that strongly you don't want kids, you shouldn't be raising them.

If I were the guy, I'd dump her for being a manipulative liar with no regard for my feelings or my future plans. Whether she keeps the baby or not, I certainly wouldn't be looking to make a life with her. Everyone deserves better than that.

[Misunderestimator]

26. Maybe I missed it... WHERE did you read that he was wearing a condom?

"Everyone deserves better than that." Indeed... everyone, including the unwanted child.

[sandnsea]

22. That's the problem

When you have sex, the possibility of a pregnancy, a child, is ALWAYS there. Therefore, the contract to raise a family is there. People who don't get that are irresponsible, in denial, or just stupid. Take your pick.

[kaitykaity]

30. Thank you.

You said it better than I did.
It's not anti-man, either.

[sandnsea]

31. It's PRO-man

In fact, I just reminded my son, who is 28. He has a new girlfriend. Don't forget, if he doesn't want to be a dad, birth control is his reponsibility. If anything, saying something like that is kind of anti-woman. Doesn't matter to me how it's interpreted, no unwanted babies is all I care about.

[lawladyprof]

18. I expect (a permutation to be sure) happens more than we know

or would like to acknowledge. Slightly different hypothetical--childless married couple, married a couple of years, husband made/makes vague statements about wanting a family. Wife senses (perhaps even unconsciously) that she is losing husband's interest and has an "accident" hoping that the child/having a family will prevent him from straying/bring him back to her/re-center him on their marriage.

[SlackJawedYokel]

20. What birth control was *he* using?

Her word?

I don't have pity for stupid people and any guy who can be "trapped" into such a thing is just stupid for words.(who the fuck lives with, let alone sleeps with, a woman he hasn't had this conversation with?)
Who stays in a relationship so duplicitous after such actions?

Who is more disgusting in this situation?
Why make it a competition?
I'm inclined to point the fingers at the parents of these people... after all with the abysmal sexuality education in US schools aren't we supposed to hold *parents* responsible?

Bleh all around.

Cletus

[Forced Into Exile]

23. That is sad

Without a doubt, the woman who listened to the bastard that likely dumped her anyhow.

[Karenina]

27. To quote the sainted Ann Landers

M.Y.O.B.

[Name removed]

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[kaitykaity]

54. It'd be nice if some people actually thought before they started

typing. It'd save everybody a whole lot of hassle.

But no, I guess that's not possible for some people.

[JVS]

32. She is

Getting pregnant on purpose to trap a partner is dirty pool

[youngred]

33. both of them deserve each other

What he did is only marginally more sick than the manipulation she engaged in.

a pox on both.

[Bridget Burke]

50. "A pox on both"--a definite possibility!

But some other infection is more likely nowadays. Just another possibility of unprotected sex.

The woman was manipulative & the man was overly trusting ("she said she was on the pill"?) but honest. At least no child will be brought into the relationship.

[Mandate My Ass]

52. The best possible outcome of the situation was the termination

of the pregnancy. She didn't really want a kid, she wanted a husband and saw having a kid as a way to bludgeon him to compliance with her wishes.

She's selfish and manipulative and he's irresponsible. At least he owned up to his own selfishness and lack of readiness for parenthood but if he didn't use protection, he's still to blame for the sin of omission rather than one of commission. She at least was offered a choice and if she didn't like either of them she's still ahead of the game because she denied him of his. Neither of them should have a kid and while it's none of our business, opinions have been solicited.

BTW, I have no problem with selfishness, just the way people use it against others.

[Mabeline]

38. Who is more disgusting in this situation?...neither

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[bleedingheart]

40. Ah the human conflict......immaturity

Let's point out all the reasons these two didn't need kids...

1. He most likely lived with her to get a convenient "piece of ass"
2. She consented to living with him, minus vows of matrimony, in order to convince him that she was a great deal..
3. He doesn't commit because he doesn't want to ...and she takes the matter into her own hands hoping that if she gets pregnant she will force his hand...
4. She finds out that all he wanted was sex and she was wasting her time with him...

So would bringing a child into this made it better...nope.

Is anyone disgusting? Well I don't know...

As to the girl... well she wanted marriage and family quite possibly and she wanted it so bad that she lived with a fellow who clearly did not love her enough to marry her.

As to the fellow...living with a woman that you do not love for the convenience of sex is just immature but quite common.

[RUDUing2]

47. same old story for thousands of years..

guy doesn't want *committment*..girl tries to force his hand...guy refuses to take responsibility...girl goes to *****(insert proper word for time and place, in ancient times it was the village wise woman for instance) and terminates the pregnancy..or they self abort (and if lucky don't die)...nothing new to this story..

Both are in the wrong..unfortunately most will (as they have throughout history) absolve the guy of any blame and place all the blame on the girl..

[Drifter]

51. Happened to my cousin ...

although she did not get pregnant on purpose to lure him into a permanent relationship.

This was his reaction:
I am going to spend $150 dollars on you.
Abortion or a plane ticket home, you choose.

Thankfully she chose the plane ticket home.

Cheers
Drifter

[Hell Hath No Fury]

53. As a woman, I find...

any female who gets pregnant to trap/keep a man to be utterly shameful. It is one of the lowest things a woman can do with her reproductive rights.

And I find any man who has sex with a woman without using BC -- even if she swears on a stack of bibles she's using BC -- to be stupid beyond belief.