Is the benign neglect of religion the way toward a more civilized society?

[KlatooBNikto]

I bring this up because today there is a news item that most people in Britain do not think of themselves as religious, do not attend any church and have no particular feeling one way or another about religion.Throughout Western Europe, this attitude is even more pervasive.In my travels to Europe, I have found people to be tolerant, aware and curious of other peoples and other parts of the world. Quite a contrast from our own close minded, mean spirited religious dogmatists of the Right.

[tk2kewl]

1. Imagine.

I think so yes...

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

John Lennon

[The White Tree]

2. I don't necessarily think so

Religion (or maybe I should say spirituality) in and of itself is not bad. Rather it is a very good thing. There are many peaceful religious people in the world and most just want to be left to worship in the way they see fit. And Religious organizations and lay people do an awful lot of good work that would not be possible otherwise.

I think people corrupt religion, in the same way that people corrupt politics, business, education and any other area were being able to have influence on other people gives them the feeling that they have power over those people. Look at communism. In and of itself the idea of communism seems beneficial, but the affects of people who practice it have generally, though not always, been negative.

So if there was no religion, I don't think the world would necessarily be a better place. What there needs to be is more tolerance among all people. That should be the goal. If religious organizations fully adopted that as the goal then they'd be an ever more powerful force for the betterment of society.

[KlatooBNikto]

4. This is why I called it benign neglect.You are aware it is there,but

you do not do anything about it and, in the Beatles' immortal words again Let It Be.

[youngred]

9. you said it much better than I did

thanks

[Union Thug]

16. Not trying to be contrarian, but...

Can you cite something 'good' about religion that cannot be provided without the belief in the supernatural?

Personally, I think relgion is a blight and I believe good comes ultimately from that which makes us human, not the supernatural.

Thx!

[AliciaKeyedUp]

30. Many things MIGHT be provided

Somehow religions seem to provide them more so -- community, faith, charity, morality, etc.

[Union Thug]

45. I'm not so sure I agree...

First, get rid of faith, it doesn't have any business here.

With the others, we have to start talking about definitions. Community is a concept that goes beyond church group outreach programs. Community involves all those things that provide for the common good including regulations regarding the air we breath, the water we drink, the motivation to provide the infrastructures that provide the basic building blocks of community and our willingness to accept taxation for their development. If you want to start talking about the capital necessary to simply provide the basic building blocks of our society, then in practical terms, religion can't hold a match to that which has been achieved via public (read secular) projects.

The debate is going to be reduced, I think, to this: I don't believe in god. Therefore, my idea of what motivates people to act for the common good is going to differ from someone who believes in a god/religion. My position looks to an evolutionary adaptive strategy that requires the development of cooperative behaviors to ensure the survival of the group. I think that my position can be argued strongly from an empirical standpoint. Those who want to assign it all to a god or religion needs to rely on the dicatates of some holy book (and must bear all the baggage that comes with it).

[Ron Green]

52. Maybe it's best not to assign it ALL to a god or religion, so that those

who need faith as part of what helps them do the right thing can be tolerated but not overly indulged (which is, I suppose what the OP was exploring.)

Cooperative behaviors that ensure the survival of the group are found among ants and other creatures much less "intelligent" than we; it seems that, to find a similar imperative for humans we must address the visceral as well as the logical understanding. Allowing religion to work its acknowledged good while minimizing its harm seems to be the best law of the land, IMO.

[Union Thug]

54. I don't disagree...but not sure I follow the point re. insects...

Pulling from my Anth classes many many years ago.... yikes...
The cooperative behaviors you cite among insects can't really be compared to human behavior. I would guess that human intelligence arose alongside earlier cooperative successes and developed simultaneously with them. Apples and oranges, so to speak. I would love to hear more from folks up on the most recent information!

My point was simply that, as contrasted to typical Repuke/religious right arguments, I believe that human beings are basically good, based to some degree upon evolutionary processes that made us cooperative, intelligent and able to think freely without the mandates of religious law.

[Ron Green]

56. Right...humans evolved with cooperative processes, but they also evolved

with warlike behavior. Who knows if the first tool was a plow stick or a club (maybe both), but we are cooperative only within our own "group," whatever size group that may be. My mention of the ants was only to say that their instinct is what makes them a cooperative group, and without a similar group instinct we have to be taught to live within the community. Maybe I'm suggesting that religion has been the glue that has served humans in the place of instinct; we require an explanation of the unexplainable, while ants simply cooperate.

It's tempting to hold logic as the highest form of consciousness, but I honestly believe that logic gets us closer to where we've been all along: pure Being, united with all who are seen as "others." And religion is too often set up as a short-cut to that Being, and corrupted in the process. However, the masses aren't ready for a real secular humanism, although I will join you in the effort to promote it.

[Union Thug]

58. Good points.

Curiously, I also remember from my admittedly old anth courses that warlike behavior is more often expressed, in primary cultures, as much through intimidation and facade as through actually violence (as opposed to the death orgy of modern war...but I digress). But you are right, violent behavior is the legacy of the same processes. I don't think I ever meant to say that we are an absolutely peaceful species, just one that, at its core, nurtures and cares for eachother first.

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere that even in Neanderthal populations that they displayed evidence of nurturing behavior towards the sick or injured. I'd have to look it up for specifics. Of course, this kind of talk raises the hair on the backs of the cold homo economicus, greed is good crowd, but this is simply the way it is (I remember reading a study about Llama herder (or somesuch) a couple of years ago that maintained that it was not greed or self serving behavior that made the local economy work, but cooperative behavior) I wish I could recall what that was.

Your thoughts about group behavior are interesting. From my perspective, though, I see the expression of religious 'values' as ones that manifest from our cooperative instincts. Now, this may be bordering on the kind of armchair anthropology that Frazer would have endorsed, but I think you are right, religion (whatever its form) was given rise to by an attempt to explain these behaviors (as well as to help explain one's place in the universe).

I like your idea of joining that single point of being from which all of us have sprung. I'm not prepared to anthropomorphize it, nor will I call it 'intelligent' (I think that trickster myths make it pretty clear that intelligence is always the source of creation!), but the fact remains, we are all children of the same universe. It's about time we figured that out, regardless of our perspectives on religion.

[youngred]

37. social justice

and a reinforcement of the value of life to name but two. Both of those can come from non-religious sources, but for many they find the moral basis for them in religion.

As a nominal Catholic I absolutely cannot stand many of my religion's negative protestations about what is right and wrong, but the need for social justice and the liberal Jesus image is largely what makes me a progressive.

[Union Thug]

46. Why do you think some require religion to establish a moral basis

for the value of life?

I think the search for social justice certainly extends to those that do not believe in god. Are we, as humans, unable to understand concepts such as fairness and the common good without the religious wrappings?

I think we can.

[youngred]

50. I don't think it's required at all

but for many it helps. I think atheists/agnostics can be just as moral (if not more so) than some of the most devout "christians" I know. But for many people their sense of the justice and a sacred belief in life stem from religious upbringing

[KnowerOfLogic]

25. If religion is just a wash, morally speaking, then who needs it?

It seems to me that people don't need god as an excuse to do good, but "following god's will" sure comes in handy as an excuse to justify doing wrong.

[brainwashed]

43. Severe psychological abuse

Teaching the concept of hell to children is a practice that I consider to be severe pyschological abuse.

The mind is a physical entity and filling it with false information hinders its functions. The mind is fully capable of calculating probabilities and using perception and logic to make decisions unless one cedes the right to think for one's self.

If one uses their mind only to believe and obey those who most fervently preach about sacred fairy tales, then the mind has physical functional problems.

I do hope we will have freedom from religion someday and enjoy healthier states of mind.

[Ron Green]

53. I've come to the conclusion that there is reality beyond logic, although

logic is required to approach it. I agree that indoctrination of children with fears of Hell is irresponsible and abusive, mainly because it circumvents the process of a lifetime of thinking and experience, although it may be true to a particular cultural tradition.

Is it possible that some kinds of early religious training can stand a child in good stead as he moves from the concrete stage of thinking into the abstract? Not to mention giving the child some clear reasons for treating others as his friends rather than his enemies? Perhaps this sort of spiritual teaching is, on balance, beneficial.

[InvisibleBallots]

3. Funny, Europeans seemed racist, intolerant, and bigoted to me

I was just there, and talked to a number of people. One thing is interesting - unlike the USA, Europe is nearly all White - so they rarely have to deal with the same sort of ethnic tensions that the US does. They strictly limit immigration, and keep poor immigrants out as much as possible - unlike the US, with our nearly open border policy.

Many Euros are also openly racist and bigoted against Arabs and Muslims, and there is an ugly reaction to the recent murders by radical Muslim extremists on the Continent - they burned down Muslim elementary schools in "tolerant" Netherlands recently. I met a middle class White Spaniard, whose attitude toward Africans would have been called Klan-like here. France doesn't have nearly the freedom of religion we have here, Germany simply does not recongize the freedom of speech. Criticizing a Corporation in the UK will get you sued straight to the poor house.

You know, come to think of it - a socially liberal, nearly all-white, non-religious society led by the wealthy classes - I can understand the appeal to many people here.

[sweetheart]

17. There are racists, fools and bigots in every country

The question is whether they're elevated to government, as in the
US, or relegated to civilian life. Living in europe, i've met some
racists as you mention, and many more funny and thoughtful people who
outweigh the nutters.

My buddhist religion is very sacred to me, and i find that western
europe is very interested in meditation and awakening. This is beyond
dogma, and is rather direct experiential religion, where i find most
of the world to be equally intolerant of the truth that material
life is ephemeral, and that death is a true teacher.

Germany very much recognizes freedom of speech, and you can't
make liabellous statements in the british media, as slandering
someone denies them the right to their honourable reputation which
is a human right.

The UK is 92% white, as you mention, yet i've an american friend
who's black, who got his UK citizenship not long back, and though
there is indeed racism here, he is much happier given the sort of
racism from where he came.

Your glib tone, and your innaccuracies suggest a rather intolerant
view of other cultures, and of course you'll see your own views
reflected whilst travelling about.

I think people misunderstand the diminishing attendences in UK
churches as not a decline in people's spirituality, but rather a
decline in the need for social religion. I know many christian
religious people in the UK. Since when is attending church a
measure of that?

If you want to be respected in UK culture, you'll find that you'll
likely have to do something for the charity of another.

The government contributions for the tsunami victems say it all
america: 100,000 bucks
Canada: 1,000,000 bucks
EU: 2.500,000 euros

None of the lot could be called generous, but there clearly exists
a marked example of stingy.

[InvisibleBallots]

20. please point out the inaccuracies

"Your glib tone, and your innaccuracies suggest a rather intolerant
view of other cultures, and of course you'll see your own views
reflected whilst travelling about."

That's a rather silly statement, considering that the US and the EU basically share the same culture, and certainly come from a common culture.

"Germany very much recognizes freedom of speech, and you can't
make liabellous statements in the british media, as slandering
someone denies them the right to their honourable reputation which
is a human right."

Germany most certainly does not recognize freedom of speech, or at least does not allow their citizens to practice it. In the UK, you can be sued for making truthful statements.

I find the idea that the EU has a superior culture to our because they are less religious to be laughable - you only need to look at the USSR to see that lack of religion does not a decent society make.

[sweetheart]

28. glib, like i said

The EU and the US do not share the same culture, nor is it common.
There are distinct differences regarding the public common and the
american view of absolute rights to property and the european view
of contingent rights to property... hence your complaint regarding
the difference in your cultural expectations is quite relevant.

You speak as if you expect europe to be a little america, and do not
have a comprehension of different cultures... glib.

America does not have open borders policies... glib.

Germany upholds the universal human rights of the united nations like
my home page... and your freedom of speech is not to outweigh the
right to life of another person... your misunderstanding, rather
than being thougtful is glib and wrong hearted.

In the UK, you will not lose a lawsuit for making truthful statements,
rather you'll be sued for slandering and lying about another in
public media (not talking in public)... glib.

I do not suggest anything is superior.. that is your rhetoric..., nor
do i suggest there is less religious... just better educated.

You are being glib and ignorant... obviously. Your arrogance is
indicative of a foolhardy approach to other societies that have
lasted 1000's of years longer than america.... glib.

Speak some truth, mate... less bigotry becomes you.

[InvisibleBallots]

40. I responded in the spirit of the OP

I guess you could say that was glib. I wonder if you would have objected if I stereotyped Europeans as "open minded, tolerant, interested and aware of other cultures" - obviously not all are, perhaps not even most. Would you have objected?

Glib? Sure. This is an internet forum, hardly uncommon.

[sweetheart]

42. So you admit being glib and inauthentic... you, not me, mate.

I object to abuse of stereotypes, no matter the sort, and i've myself
posted about some of the bigotry i've seen in europe, and as well
what clearly is working better.

When a small percentage of people have actually been about the place,
and have very limited tools to penetrate your mythology, stereotyping
is a sort of dehuminaization process used by psyops to prepare people
for war... and i now you excuse yourself from your psyops function
to, try and pin a wooly slander on me at the end, presuming that
i only accept "nice" wrong headed stereotypes.

I suggest that europeans are little different by population sample
than ameircans, but that money does not dominate politics, so that
the people's votes generally and truly elect governments that keep
their self interests elevated (read social democracy).

What you just said, as a wooly slander piece on people you don't know
was not positioned as a personal experience, an anecdotal view on
a population the size of all north america, including mexico and
canada.

This internet forum celibrates truth to bullshit, and i've no problem
with you spouting bullshit, as long as others who know better take
the time to clarify a more truthful view. That said, your need to
slander a continent by your experiences, speaks poorly of your
approach to argument. Also, with your using psyops dehumanization
as a technique, further undermines your credibility in argument.

The subject of the secularization of british society is an area worth
seriously considering, as indeed, most people on this board, are
deeply concerned about the very opposite trend in the bushishta
government. Then, britain can offer a view on another way that
a similar culture has been able to de-fuse the religious psycho bomb.

Your invisible ballot is distinctly like so many we've seen in
ohio... insubstantial, unverifiable and wrong... You're the moniker
in spades... :-)

[InvisibleBallots]

49. no

If you think I'm "glib" - you have a right to your opinion. This is what the OP said:

"In my travels to Europe, I have found people to be tolerant, aware and curious of other peoples and other parts of the world."

Based on her personal experiences, she stereotypes Europeans a certain way. Based on my experiences, I stereotyped them a different way. What's the problem?

I admit, I'm a little miffed at the constant ass kissing of Europe, as if these people are so far superior to Americans. It's nonsense. Anyone who has been there or knows Europeans should realize this.

I don't have a problem with Europe, I love it, I'm trying to find work there. :shrug:

[sweetheart]

57. singing hair

I was being a bit OTT. Sorry. You pressed my freeper button, and i
gave you a hot foot... I believe one of the values of DU is the direct
experiences as the anecdotal stuff tells a story that no statistics
or newspapers do.

And part of what i really love is the cross discussion, and challenging
of views between users that never happens in news media. In this
regard, between the various posters on this thread, a balanced picture
emerges.

I think the EU is best understood, by viewing america as individual
states, not as a nation. Then one might visit texas and realize that
it is quite very different than california, and that stereotyping a
person as american does a disservice. Really, a californian, is quite
a different american than a mississippi rural person... and so on...
so much so, that specific anecdotes are more telling than any
sweeping generalization of the map.

I hope you find work in the EU. I really love some parts... much as
i love northern vermont, the deserts of the 4 corners and the wilderness
areas of the american west. The earths' crust is such a rich habitat,
and the people just, IMO, fertilizer recyclers, or as one middle
ages landlord put it... "farm equipment that talks." ;-)

namaste,
-s

[Kellanved]

21. you are mistaken

"France doesn't have nearly the freedom of religion we have here, Germany simply does not recognize the freedom of speech"

I'd like to know what gave you that impression. Anecdotal evidence about individuals does say little to nothing about societies.
The French and the German constitution both guarantee Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion, in personal and press freedom both countries are rated better than the US. There might be a different weight given to some constitutional principles, than in the US, but to conclude a general fact on the basis of some overreported oddities is strange indeed.

[InvisibleBallots]

22. there was a good writeup in the NYT the other day

France strictly controls its religions, has massive government interference with religion, and even does its own recruiting of religious leaders and teachers.

"The French and the German constitution both guarantee Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion, in personal and press freedom both countries are rated better than the US."

The constitution of the USSR also guaranteed freedom of speech and freedom of religion. There are plenty of things in Germany you are simply not allowed to say. Perhaps there are good reasons for this, but it doesn't change the fact that they don't allow the same freedom of speech that we do here.

[Kellanved]

23. apples and oranges

Unlike the USSR, Germany is a constitutional Democracy and has instances guarding the constitution and guaranteeing the basic rights.

If you want to say that Freedom of Speech covers infringing on the Human Dignity of others, then we do understand different things under "Freedom of Speech". Just as France (and Germany in this regard)understands something different under "Freedom of Religion". That doesn't mean that either of those is weaker than in the US, just that's a somewhat different concept.
Anyway you look at it, the "freedom" to say anything does not exist in the US either, although people tend to be a little less honest about that fact.


As to the NYT: Few European reporters/newspapers really grasp the constitutional basis they're working upon; I have read a lot of garbage.

[KnowerOfLogic]

26. I lived in Holland for 3 years, and i think you misrepresent;

Heck, the description you just gave (minus the secularism) could apply to the US Congress and half the cities in America.

[InvisibleBallots]

41. I was treated to the most bigoted ranting in the Netherlands

I remember this one woman ranting about how much she hated Americans. These were her complaints - when climbing stairs, they stamped their feet too loudly, they walked too fast, they spoke to loudly, they like to brag about all the places they've travelled, and their laughter sounded like animals.

Last time I was there someone from Hungary who had lived in the US said "I don't know what you did to your Black people over there, I wouldn't want them in my country."

Burning down elementary schools? After 911 the US had a handful of shitheads murder some innocent "foreigner" looking people, but we didn't burn down children's schools.

[KnowerOfLogic]

59. Well, that may be, but jeez, have you looked around the US lately? nt

[Kellanved]

31. forgot to add:

Your report about immigration into Europe vs the situation in the US is quite entertaining as well. Comparing the 1900 US with the present-day EU - quite a nice touch.´

I've said it before: measuring the level racism (which of course does exist) by meeting one (sic!) person of a "klan-like" persuasion ... I can't understand you there.
As to the "wealthy class" - social mobility is a lot better in Europe - although maybe we don't have poor and needy families like the current president's one raising to power that often.

[Union Thug]

47. The irony of this statement is that now you've grouped an entire

content of humans as racist and intolerant. That, in itself, seems a little predjudiced.

Having myself spent time in Europe, as well, my impression is simply that it really depends where you are and who you are talking with...just like here in the states!

[leftofthedial]

5. we have outgrown the need for superstition

those who rely on it for their wealth and power are fighting its death

[indigobusiness]

12. What is superstitious about Spinoza's version of God?

What is egregious is the manipulation of the masses through the guise of religion by power-brokers of the day.

[KnowerOfLogic]

27. Religion has *always* been 'manipulated,' misinterpreted, etc.

by the powers that be in order to serve their own ends, but that is because religion *lends* itself to this manipulation, because it asks people to act against their own rationality and against the evidence of their eyes and ears. IMO, rationality is *always* preferable to religion.

[indigobusiness]

36. Spinoza was highly rational

Spinoza--Known as both the "Greatest Christian" & the "Greatest Atheist"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x3580

[KnowerOfLogic]

60. Don't know anything about spinoza, but how can rationality, logic, and

scientific evaluation of the world around us *ever* lead to knowledge of the supernatural? "God" is by definition, so far outside the normal realm of human experience, that there is really no way to have any certain knowledge of it, or even any probable knowledge of it. Any knowlege of it is purely 'made up;' it is based on emotion, illogic, and fallible human judgement. That being said, there *may be* a god, but it is impossible for us to know anything about it. Therefore, the rational response is to coninue acting only according to what we *do* know, not according to what we don't know.

[youngred]

38. so does capitalism

and most any human orginization that has power.

[KnowerOfLogic]

61. Sure, but there is something more corrupting about the misuse of religion;

it is like the numerous locical, factual, and moral errors in the bible; well, you say, virtually every human institution or school of thought has made mistakes at one time or another. True, but that is to be expected in things that are the work of mere mortal human beings. There should be no errors in the word and work of God.

If we accept that "god" him/her/itself can make errors of the magnitude of condoning slavery and genocide, then surely human beings need not be concerned about holding themselves to standards much higher than that.

[youngred]

63. Focus on the negative

The work of God and her message is carried out through flawed, mortal human beings, thus they don't get it all right. God does not condone slavery and genocide, humans acting in God's name do.

[youngred]

6. Religion yes, faith/belief no

There is something to said between finding a balance between faith/belief and science/logic. Having some element of spirituality stimulates the mind and the imagination and can give a sense of peace and wonder. It's when that turns into dogmatic, exclusionary, strict power control from above (institutions that have great hold on the human condition will always be abused by the few assholes) that they become problematic.

The problem isn't necessarily with religion, it's with those who abuse religion for their own purposes

[ThoughtCriminal]

7. We need more humanistic religion

as opposed to authoritarian, fundamentalist religion.

[LSdemocrat]

8. Try being a poor person of color in Western Europe

and see how tolerant they are.

[KnowerOfLogic]

29. Try being a poor person of color HERE, and see how tolerant

your average Southern Baptist is. Nobody is saying that secularism is the solution to all problems, but you're stretching it to suggest that western europe is *more* backward than we are. And, one should note that racial problems in America do seem to bear a proportional relationship to the degree of religiosity of a given area.

[LSdemocrat]

33. I'm not saying that Western Europe is worse, just not really any better

I also don't think that modern racism has anything to do with religious belief.

[ChairOne]

10. All that's needed is mandatory education.

That's it. The rest will take care of itself (largely). If every man, woman and child is required to obtain a college degree (according to the standards of approx 40 years ago), I'd be happy to let religion (and ID, and wutever other stupid crap you can think of) stay around in whatever form it could manage...

Prayer has no place in school, just like facts have no place within organized religion - som famous educator said that, I believe...

It's the idiots that allow these evil institutions, folks...

[sweetheart]

18. Yes, i think you've hit the crux

Ignorance begets an easily influenced and superstitious population.
Education, as even the most regular UK person has access to the BBC,
which provides a serious level of basic education, that helps the
culture transcend stupid superstition... like "be afraid of terrorists" boo!

The UK has benign and wise media. It fills the education gap and
helps people get on without the need for sillyness. That said, when
people DO discover religion, it is for the right reasons...


So much depends on the red wheelbarrow in the rain, by the white
chickens.
:-)

[ChairOne]

19. So the saying (almost) goes... ex idiots, idiocy fit....

Incompetent voters vote incompetently... I'm not sure why that idea isn't catching around these parts...

[Union Thug]

48. well said. I agree completely.

It is time for mandatory, 100% publically funded, even retroactive, undergraduate education for all citizens of this country.

[indigobusiness]

11. Spiritual bankruptcy got us into the hurtbag we're in today.

Imagine a real connection to spirit, without the baloney?

This is what John Lennon meant in his song. Who would deny he was a deeply spiritual man, if not religious?

Maybe you are right, given the context.

[wuushew]

13. The problem is authoritarianism vs. freedom

No religion is inherently problematic as long a person keeps their beliefs to themselves or the people they choose to associate with. For all the talk of a "personal relationship with God" many American Christians have strong feelings about what other people do.

Their strong opinions of disapproval translates into political power which harms those who favor differing ideas on what makes good marital, reproductive and governmental policy. Though I may have a liberal and populist viewpoint on tax policy my conservative opponent has just as much of right to vote based on his viewpoint in a democracy. While I accept the validness of my opposition many religious fundamentalists do not, all the while maintaining the absoluteness of their righteousness.

Being an atheist I fail to see the demarcation line between secular affairs and so called matters of true faith. Given this indistinction is it not better approach all of life's problems from the perspective of ambiguity when interacting with others or participating in a democracy?

[sweetheart]

34. as well negative and positive liberty

There is the popular re-definition of american liberty that the world
is to f**k off and leave me the hell alone... the government has no
business in my life.... blah blah.. "negative liberty". Positive
liberty, however, is atrophied.

What about the right to be an equal in society irregardless of colour
race or creed? What about equal opportunity to change one's situation
in life.
What about the right to be measured solely based on merit, than my
family name, my parent's bank accounts, social aristocratic standing
and schools attended.... rather what the GOP has eroded towards is
the principal of neo-feudalism... but certainly not liberty.

Politics, from its latin origins, implies that no person has
absolute power, but must negotiate with the others to find an
amicable situation for the whole.... and the GOP denies politics
altogether for dictatorshp.... with us or against us, join our
adgenda or be left out.

[Liberal Veteran]

14. As I said last night....the problem is more the TYPE of religion in the US

We have tons and tons of McChristians in the US who treat religion as though it were something to cling to only at convenience. It makes them feel as if they are really good by expressing faith in God verbally instead of actions and it often gives them a shield to justify their own petty bigotries against various groups of people. They use it to justify their hatred of people who are different in any way, whether it be sexual orientation or people of different faith such as millions of peaceful muslims around the world. It can even be used to hate those who are less fortunate or stricken with disease because they can just write it off as God's will.

Meanwhile, and I have seen this time and time and time again, these same people drink, smoke, sleep around, lie, curse, cheat, and sometimes steal. They are often the incarnation of the seven deadly sins: Greed, sloth, pride, lust, gluttony, envy and most of all ANGER.

They pop into church once in awhile (sometimes more regularly) and give a little to the church and the moment they step out of the threshold of the temple they shed anything worth learning in there while clinging desperately to the easy parts.

It's a sort of fast-food type of religion. It tastes good, but it's not really nourishing to the spirit or the society

They also think they are the majority and maybe their form of Christianity is in the majority. The strange thing is that Jesus himself said that true Christians would NEVER be the majority:

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[indigobusiness]

15. Those quotes are powerful.

There is wisdom there. The problem is that meaning gets trampled under the nattering hoards that would bend it to their will.

[KnowerOfLogic]

24. IMO, a full frontal assault on religion is needed; no half measures.

Repukes have shown us that relentless negative, even outrageously false attacks work. I sense a mood amongst the DNC types to start 'embracing' and 'respecting' religion; this would be nothing more than digging our own graves. The spread of primitive, anti-intellectual, clannish religion will never be anything but an impediment to the spread of liberal, progressive, tolerant values. The brutal truth must be told about what is in the bible, and about the continuous, unbroken record of religious conservatives supporting every single moral atrocity the human race has ever known.

[youngred]

39. A very illogical statement

Humanity has not advanced to your level of atheistic logic that would allow for a "full frontal assault on religion." Any 'Christian' Conservative reading that statement would see it as further evidence that you hate them because of their religion and are out to persecute them. What we're seeing is the last group to feel victimized in this country. The white Christians are saying to themselves, the blacks, women, gays etc got to feel like they were being persecuted, now it's our turn. The only problem is they have much larger numbers (as majorities are wont to have) and so their voice is heard exponentially louder. Do I think they swung the election, not at all. But they and many in power think they did, so now they have de facto more power than they did before.

I completely disagree that religion is always an impediment to liberal, progressive and tolerant values. Early Christianity spread most quickly among women in the first few Centuries after Christ's death, largely because it offered an equality not seen anywhere else in the world at that time. Islam in it's first few centuries was likewise very liberal leading to the first episodes of religious freedom (Jews and Christians were allowed to live in peace and Jews were held in great esteem as God's people and Jesus a revered prophet) and stimulated a golden age of science in the Muslim world. Religious convictions drove the likes of Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi to the great messages of peace and justice they are known for. Religion CAN be a positive force for good, too often though it is abused. It must be taken back by the liberal faithful though

[KnowerOfLogic]

62. In my experience, i have had considerable success w/ the full frontal

assault strategy. Of course i don't mean doing anything unethical, unseemly, or violent; i simply mean telling the brutal truth about the bible (in particular), and letting people draw their own conclusions. As i work at an unskilled job, there is plenty of opportunity for conversation, and the topic of religion occaisionally arises. It has become apparent to me that most self-identified christians have *no idea* what is in the bible.

They are christians because they were raised as christian or in a christian community, and the have this vague general notion the the bible is the source of everything good, right, and moral in the world, and that there is not a single error or blemish within the entire book. This is a *very dangerous* belief. Their ignorance of what is actually in the bible allows their political beliefs to be hijacked by the fundamentalist right, because they assume that anyone fighting for 'christian morals' (presumably against the 'anti-christians') must be on the right side.

Most of these people are shocked when i bring their attention to some of the more outrageous statements in the bible; such as the countless instances where 'the lord' instructs the jews to slaughter entire villages, man, woman, infant, and suckling included (except for the cases where god instructs them to save the pretty virgins and steal all the cattle and spoils), or when god specifically instructs the jews to keep 'the heathen' as bondmen/bondwomen, as a possession for themselves and their children *forever*. I find that young women are particularly shocked when i explain the biblical concept of marriage and adultery to them...

well, i'll spare you all the details, but i know that i have made a good number of people more skeptical about claims of biblical inerrancy, and claims of religious righters that moral society in america depends on establishment of "christian morality" as the law of the land. Infact, a fundy i used to debate w/ would periodically say that he wasn't going to debate w/ me any more, because i always won and i was bringing more people to my side than he was bringing to his.

[Lexingtonian]

32. it's the Modern trend

Worldwide, authoritarian theistic religion is in decline- but resisting it, to the point of temporary expansion absent substance. (In Europe this expansion phase took place in parts of the 19th century and the early half of the 20th century, in the U.S. it was 1975-1995 or so.) Nontheistic religion, or humanistic religiousity, is in slow ascent. In the study of arts and humanities the phenomenon is called Modernity.

Benign neglect...it's a raging 'debate' for long periods of time in each society, with Atheism and the 'proofs of the existence' of a theist God being major focal points.

If you go to the small villages, Western Europe can be brutally provincially and still very much its medieval and pre-Christian/pagan self- Pat Buchanan is a very exact replica of the kind of people you can still find there. (Intriguing by their selective sharp insights, horrifying in their dogmas, judgments, and actions.) The cities...well, they are IME full of people mobile or fishing around for a spiritual/religious identity, with both the good and the bad of that very much in evidence.

The U.S. is more overtly segregated between people of like characteristics- the coastline has the cosmopolitan effort, the large "heartland" is the stronghold of the provincial Messianism. The bizarre thing about it is that it would conform to the rest of the world if the coasts were the culturally more Eurocentric places and the 'heartland' the nativist counterculture, but the opposite is the case.

[Disturbed]

35. Religion as a Weapon

Empires Prefer a Baby and the Cross to the Adult Jesus
By Giles Fraser

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122604I.shtml

[cleofus1]

44. i just posted this in another thread...

but it is so on topic i will post it just one more time...

"Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!"
As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us - for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."

Friedrich Nietzsche


of course i have to admit...i am an atheist...i don't even believe that jesus lived...what is god? just one of the biggest fairy tales ever told...

[Wilber_Stool]

51. Although it may take some time,

I think it will all take care of itself. You don't have to be a historian to know that no one treats Christians worst than other Christians.

[Cleita]

55. People with curious minds can't accept dogmatic, rigid thinking

like religious beliefs, so they will be more tolerant because they have minds open to new ideas. I have found some of the atheists in our atheist forum to be as rigid and close-minded as the Taliban. Therefore, I have decided not to call myself an atheist anymore, but a non-believer in mainstream religious thought.