Let's try this again: Do you have sympathy for people who enlisted after

[CatWoman]

November 2000?

The other thread got bogged down in personal attacks ( :eyes: )

But I don't know how I feel about this.

I'm a veteran -- and if I were active duty I would have no choice but follow orders -- not matter how distasteful. Therefore, I feel a lot of emphathy towards my brethren in the Middle East.

I wanted to post on the other thread, but it's locked now.

[TheYellowDog]

1. Yes

I do. I feel bad that a lot of DUers don't.

[demnan]

2. I feel bad for any of the soldiers over there - regardless

of when they signed up.

They all signed up with the belief that they would be serving their country in support of a sane administration. And they all love their country, as I do.

Hey many of these folks had no alternative in jobs. In a lot of areas (particularly the rural south and Appalachia) the military is the only way out of poverty.

[Generic Other]

16. A sane administration? Bush?

What are you talking about?

The original thread asked whether we had sympathy for those who rushed to enlist knowing that Bush was in charge.

I was warning people in 1999 that Bush would be just like his Daddy and that would mean war with Iraq. This family with the mentality of professional wrestlers should not have inspired anybody's trust.

They are a threat to the country, a danger to the world, and no Americans should have entrusted their children's lives to these thugs.

And the "earning money for college" argument just doesn't cut it for me.

There are more respectable ways to do this than signing up for blood money.

Lots of young men in Iraq right now kicking themselves in hindsight. And I hope they make it home alive. I have a feeling they are a lot wiser than they were when they made the bargain with the devil Bush.

[ComerPerro]

3. Once again

I feel sympathy for our soldiers. I think its sick to not feel any compassion for them.

[Wwagsthedog]

4. Yes

These people are part of the 70% or so that believe the propaganda that saddam was in cahoots with OBL. Unfortunately for them, they hear no dissenting reasons or are not inclined/able to critically assess the aims of the bush regime. Nobody teaches them to think so they follow whatever crowd they're in to the recruiter. Anybody have any idea how successful the military has been lately in meeting their reenlistment goals?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. They are not too successful

by the way, I am quite the progressive and after September
11 I was willing to join the service because it is a war at some
levels. (even if we have caused some of it by the way, it is now in the bloody cycle that will only make it more painful for all concerned) This was September 13th, now let me ask you a question...
how much of what we know now about the Bush regime was known
even on the WWW on September 13th, 2001?

If you say a lot you know you are partially lying. After all
you would need to do a lot of digging on September 13th to find
anything. These days it is starting to even filter to the mainstream.

So spare me the propaganda and all that. In fact, and I have told
this to some of the 20 something generation too concerned with
their own well being... they did not (and have not at many levels)
answered the call of their nation. You know what was the reaction
after Pearl Harbor? Recruitment stations had more recruits than they
could handle, you know what was the reaction after September 11?
The AF recruiter told me this... those who showed up were mostly
ineligible to serve due to age, the msot striking example was an
Air Corp Colonel (ret), who flew B-17s during WW II. (I am sure the bush regime was counting on the former not the latter by the way)

These days the 20 something generation has not only not shown up
at the recruiters (which was not a bad thing in the long run) but they, for the most part, are not voting or paying attention to what is going around them. In the end the Armed Forces (which are being gutted as we speak) will need a Draft to fulfill current obligations (and I am quite on purpose leaving the horror of what is going on and the ilegal war nature of the conflict out of this for a reason). Those Armed Forces will need a DRAFT, and that might be the fire under
the 20 something generation to finally pay attention and realize
that freedom is not cheap (and no you do not need to go to war to
pay the price), and that the price of freedom is eternal
vigilance.

Oh and one more thing, DON'T BLAME THE TROOPS, it is NOT THEIR FAULT.
Unlike you and me (who would not be able to tell you this if the
Air Force said yes on Sept 13, 2001), they have no right to the
First Ammendment. Not only that, but many a military family is now
speaking out. You probably have NO RELATIVES in the Armed Forces,
hence you DO NOT REALIZE the risk we DO TAKE with their careers and
their futures... and for that I can forgive you. But the fact that
military families ARE SPEAKING OUT should tell you something, there
is oposition, it is just that the boys in uniform cannot openly say so.

So I ask that you get yourself a tad more informed as to the reality
of those in uniform. Oh and spare me the propaganda... as most of those soldiers, sailors and Marines come from lower middle class
backgrounds and poor households. They are promised the sky by
recruiters and if it is not in paper, well it is not binding. The kids do not know that either... and they trust, after all for many it is their first experience in the real world where they were sold a product (insert branch of service here), and some do join because they truly believe in serving their country in a way that is probably very alien to you... and here is a newsflash for you... most of them
do not care who the siting President is, especially if they intend to
make this a career... after all over the course of a twenty year career potencially there will be five Presidents... hence they take an oath to protect the Constitution not a particular President. Which leads to one final point... you know what the Joint Chiefs told Congress in the Summer of 1973? They were asked what was the military's possition regarding Nixon, since some did fear a Coup... the answer was very cryptic to our Congressmen, and I am sure even more crytic to Tricky Dick... "we will protect the Constitution."

here is another news flash for ya, statistically the military tends to vote at a higher rate than the bulk of the population, hence why it is wooed by BOTH parties, with promises and all that. I might add when the General Election comes up, I suspect most will vote for ABB, as the boy prince has NOT FULFILLED any of his promises to the services, who are still ill paid and ill housed... now add to that lower standards of education for their kids.

[Wwagsthedog]

45. Friend

You needn't preach to me. I've known about the bush regime for a lot longer than Sept., 2001. Sadly, many people, including you apparently, were duped by them. As far as military service is concerned, I did my time and I vote every single chance I get. Did you serve in the military? If not, you know not of what you speak which I think is the general theme of your post. Check your facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I have, and my husband is STILL IN THE SERVICE

Now my service was not quite with the US Miliatry,
but I have been shot at more times than I care to remember
And by the way, I DO KNOW WHAT I SPEAK OFF and thanks for
calling MOST OF THE COUNRY DUPES... hence why
most people look at the left, shake their heads and
call the left unpatriotic.

Instead of TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE, damn it EDUCATE THEM.

And yes YOU DID PUT THE TROOPS DOWN.

Oh and you MAY HAVE KNOWS OF THE BUSH REGIME FOR A LONG TIME
but pray tell me, outside of Texas, where some still
think Bush is the best thing since sliced bread, how were
people suposed to learn? Remember that so called FREE PRESS?

Yes that same press falling flat right now, yeap, them, AWOL
story went nowhwere, remember that?

So DO NOT PREACH and lets just get them out....

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Oh and one thing does not change from military to military,
newsflash to you, the inability of troops to critize their
leaders... check it out...

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[Wwagsthedog]

57. Unhappy with being a dupe, eh?

You need to get your caps lock key fixed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Get used to be called

Traitor by the rethugys then... becasue they will do it often

Oh and no I am not a dupe but you are an ideologue, not unlike
your Rethugy opposition.

Enjoy....

[saskatoon]

60. you have it pretty well spelled out.

Here is a verse from a song which I wrote which contains an actual quote from a Pfc. in Iraq:
"We don't feel like heroes anymore
we can't help but think of Black Hawk Down
the President says 'bring 'em on'"
but this is deadly violent Baghdad town
it's no Crawford Texas and it's not Washington
and they don't feel like heroes anymore.
Next verse ---just because it throws me as to who and what this is about, the who is Sgt. Dewitt, 26 of Portland Oregon:
Sgt. Dewitt dazed, disbeleiving
sat on his bed and stared
at the end of his arms
where his hands had disappeared etc.
Poor kids all of them, who cares what, when why they enlisted. Their lives have been ruined by those Bastards in the Bush cabal. If they haven't been crippled for life then they have been so traumatized they will never be the same again.

[jiacinto]

5. I feel sympathy for the troops

nt

[HEyHEY]

6. You wanna fight catwoman?

Just jokin, I posted as a no-sympathy. When you join the army you can't complain about where they send you.

[CatWoman]

7. you're mighty quick with that edit button

:D

[HEyHEY]

9. If you put your foot in your mouth as much as I do....ya gotta be

;-)

[JohnKleeb]

8. I will say it again yes

For all who see battle whether they become hawks or doves by it are worthy of my sympathy. War I have learned from reading All Quiet on the Western Front and seeing war movies the same movies that turn others in to hawks, that you lose your friends, I feel so sad at times, General Robert E Lee once said it is good war is so terrible then we must not grow too fond of it, and although I disagreed with the general's southern confedracy, I feel General Lee 140 years ago made a lot of sense. I read a lot on war, and I feel pity for all of them although some of these wars I would had fought in, I would had loved to be with my ancestor Sgt Mike Strank and rise the flag on Mt Surabichi. I wouldnt fight in many of our more recent wars but if I could had served in WWII or the US Civil War, I would had enlisted. Also some of my other pity stems from the fact that many of these guys are near my age.

[HEyHEY]

11. John brings up an interesting shift

If you mean to I feel sorry for them for being sent to Iraq...no. But in general, do I have sympathu for their day to day routine of hell and being away from loved ones and such - yes. But I'd feel sympathy all the time for that.

[JohnKleeb]

15. thats my point

War is so terrible. The real victims are the Iraqi civilians but the soldiers suffer too. So many lives gone, a story for each man and woman and child killed, think about that. Ive listened to a DK speech and this was before the war, he said so theres this family in Iraq and they are told theres a attack coming, he also mentioned the fact that the souls or spirits of the wars of the past hovered over us. I have said often that all war is terrible and one of the saddest things is the supposed war to end all wars didnt end all wars and above all the weapons used then now look like children's toys compared with what we use now. It is a sad thing isnt it.

[Generic Other]

24. You've mentioned Sgt Mike before. I recall Ira Hayes also there that day

Didn't he die in a ditch--a tormented drunk?

Where are the sympathetic Americans then? When veterans experience post-traumatic stress syndrome, who has sympathy then? The VA hospital? Where recently disabled and discharged Gulf War 2 vets can't get appointments for months? Where they will receive little or no treatment for depleted uranium contamination?

It's easy to say you have sympathy for GIs. Talk is cheap.

Rather than worrying about which of us has the most tender heart and can cry the biggest crocodile tears, let's do something constructive.

Bring the troops home. End this pathetic occupation. That is how we support them.

[JohnKleeb]

32. Sgt Mike is my relative

I wanna bring them home too. I wanna increase veterans benefits, pay etc. I mentioned Mike because he is my relative btw I have the biggest respect for all who served in the wars. I feel sorry for what happened to Ira. I wanna bring them home a lot more than you think. I think that would be best they are victims. I think it is a shame when people especially members of our own government deny things like Gulf War Syndrome. On Ira his end is so sad, he lost friends there. I just mentioned Mike being a relative, thats all. I have all the respect for all who have fallen. So please GO understand me, I didnt mean any disrespect what so ever. The best way is to bring them home I completely agree. So many die day by day that breaks my heart. Understand me?

[Generic Other]

49. I wasn't meaning to criticize you or single you out

I was just recalling instances when our "sympathy" for veterans falls short.

[JohnKleeb]

51. dont worry about it

Its ok though I see your point completely now. One of the saddest things Ive heard is that many vets are homeless. My candiate wants to increase pay and benefits and bring em home, I have my other reasons for supporting him but this is key.

[Frances]

10. Yes I do

Some of them are the children of friends, and since I have so many relatives all over the U.S., I expect some of them are related to me.

I hold Bush and the media responsible. After all, 70% of Americans think Saddam caused 9/11.

I would like to scream, "How could you be so stupid to believe Bush?" but I don't think that would be productive.

I think our best bet is to keep plugging away trying to educate people one by one.

[CatWoman]

12. Bush* demonized Saddam for an entire year

and I think the non-stop brainwashing worked.

[wuushew]

13. Since everyone is seperated by six degrees of seperation..

the 31,295 DU members should be able to get the message out to those brainwashed by the media.

[sattahipdeep]

14. KILLERS FOR HIRE

90 private mercenary companies operate today in 110 different countries.
PMCs do mercenary OUTSOURCING.

The DOD has purchased 2700 mercenary/military contracts with
Kellogg Brown, Root and Booze Allen.

Where I live armed killers cost 10.50 an hour armed and 9.50 an hour
armed with only a club and hancuffs.

If you order them by the 1/2 dozen the price drops.

[mitchum]

17. Yes, because I have sympathy for the proletariat

Otherwise, I don't see how I could consider myself a leftist

[QC]

22. Excellent response.

Sympathy for the proles is in rather short supply in today's new and improved Left.

[jody]

18. Yes absolutely. Everyone should remember that Iraq is just part of

our military requirement. We can debate Iraq which I believe is both immoral and unconstitutional, but most of the other military requirements are valid.

I support the troops whenever they enlisted and I've redoubled my efforts to get the troops out of Iraq and other countries where they are protecting "the interests of multinational corporations" and not "the interests of We the People".

[alfredo]

19. Yes I feel sorry for all those who have to fight an unjust war.

If the war was just, I'd say suck it up soldier. This war is an abuse of our military. It is a waste of lives, it is a waste of valuable time, and it is a waste of our money.

[Booberdawg]

20. Our service men and women serve an honorable role

for our country. It's not their fault bush decided to launch an unjust war. They are following orders.

[Brucey]

21. Too simple

Nations are artificially drawn boundaries which people take too seriously. Why should I care more about a person who lives in Missouri than a person who lives in Brazil, Canada, Norway, or anywhere else? People do have choices. You say you would have no choice... but you do. You do not have to follow orders. Even the military says that soldiers should not follow orders that are wrong. It is wrong for governments to put young people in that position. They are not well educated and have great difficulty thinking for themselves. They need moral leadership. People need to be told that following orders is not the highest good. There are often good reasons not to. Soldiers are uninformed, products of mass persuasion, and pre-selected to do what they are told, often for very immoral ends. Education is one answer.

[jody]

25. You say "Even the military says that soldiers should not follow orders

that are wrong."

The oath actually says "I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD."

The UCMJ requires military personnel to obey "lawful orders". It is a sad fact that congress approved AWOL's use of troops in Iraq and his orders are therefore lawful. :shrug:

QUOTE
TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 47 > SUBCHAPTER X > Sec. 892. - Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation

Any person subject to this chapter who -

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct
UNQUOTE

[Brucey]

38. But

Two problems: One is the meaning of "lawful." Many reasonable scholars believe that the invasion of Iraq was illegal. The other problem is the contradiction between upholding the constitution and obeying orders. These are sometimes mutually exclusive. If I am ordered to kill my mother because a republican congress has passed a law making it legal, I still should not do it.

[jody]

52. But the burden of proof shifts to a militay defendant to prove that an

order is not lawful.

You and I can exchange an unlimited number of "reasonable scholars believe" pro or con quotations, but I believe in this case, a passive, do-nothing congress gave AWOL a bill "To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq".

I don't like it, but it seems to let AWOL off the hook.

[JackSwift]

23. I feel pretty bad for those guys

the freepers, who bless their souless selves are too chicken to enlist in a cause they believe in, have really hung the troops out to dry. In 130 degree heat that doesn't take long.

[blm]

26. Yes...they were lied to by the media.

And there are few jobs out there for them.

This is no coincidence. This is how robber barons and the plutocrats have operated for centuries.

Thanks CatWoman.

[DEMActivist]

27. See, that's what I have a problem with...

I were active duty I would have no choice but follow orders -- not matter how distasteful.

First, please don't take this as a personal attack, because I mean no dispresect to you or any of our troops.

That being said, I find this attitude misplaced and wrong. It is hypocritical for Americans to have called for the blood of Nazi troops at concentration camps and then find the above statement acceptable.

We can't allow the examples of Mai Lai to happen again.

We can't condone our trooops carrying out orders, regardless of whether or not those orders are wrong.

To do so would be to condone the death of innocents for a larger desire - in this case oil.

I can't go there and don't feel any support or sympathy for a soldier who doesn't have the courage to defy orders to do something immoral and/or wreckless.

[Brucey]

42. Good for you, but

Sympathy is fine. But I applaud your point that following orders is not some great thing people should be proud of. I can just hear children saying, "I can't wait to grow up, become a mature adult, and then do everything I am told to do without question." Mature adults should think for themselves, should be educated to make wise decisions. When Cheney tells you to drop massive bombs on a civilian grocery market, you should say no. If it means a court martial, then so be it, and good for you.

[DEMActivist]

47. Agreed

Because if we give them undefined support, we condone the behavior.

It does NOT take bravery to point a gun at an innocent and pull the trigger because someone ordered you to.

It DOES take bravery to stand down and refuse to accept that order.

It is NOT brave to fire into a group of unarmed civilians (which HAS happened in Iraq). It IS brave to refuse that order to do so.

Holding a loaded gun in one's hands - ordered to use it against all comers is not bravery.

[maha]

28. Yes, of course.

Why not?

[redeye]

29. No

The US military requires complete obedience to orders, and that includes an order to impale oneself on a rusty sword or to burn one's children alive and enjoy watching them roast to death. When someone enlists, he basically says, "the country is more important to me than anything, including anyone's and everyone's life," and I have zero repsect for that attitude. On the other hand, I support a person's right to forfeit his individuality. On a third hand, I feel much less compassion for a dying soldier than I do for a dying civilian.

[jody]

33. You are absolutely wrong in saying "The US military requires complete

obedience to orders, and that includes an order to impale oneself on a rusty sword or to burn one's children alive and enjoy watching them roast to death."

According to DU protocols, all I can say is that’s a bald-faced "your facts are wrong".

[redeye]

36. According to DU protocols...

...I can only say "they aren't; the US military has no concept of values overriding orders, unlike other militaries, and anyway all militaries are based on obedience and reducing oneself to a machine in the service of the state."

[Brucey]

48. No!

Soldiers do not have to follow every order, in fact they are not supposed to follow illegal orders. But even legal orders don't have to be followed if the soldier believes they violate the oath to uphold the constitution. Additionally, even legal orders that are constitutional don't HAVE to be followed. Sometimes a court martial is preferable to bombing thousands of innocent people in an illegal war. If I was a bomber in Iraq and my commander told me to kill innocent civilians or soldiers from the Allied forces, I would not do it. You do not have to obey. Americans are slaves to this silly idea that you must do what you're told. You do not have to. You shouldn't. Blind obedience is immoral, stupid, dangerous, and the tool of dictators and right-wing idiots. Everyone should say no to actions that are obviously wrong and immoral. Individuals should say no to actions that they believe might be wrong or immoral. The ends do not justify the means. The means must stand on their own morality. If killing your mother will make the world a better place, it is still wrong of me to kill your mother. RESIST AUTHORITY.

[redeye]

53. According to the law...

...the law supersedes individuality and ethics. When you enlist, you sign a contract that basically says "I'm a machine of the United States military."

[jody]

56. Another bald-faced "your facts are wrong" eom

[bandy]

31. Of course...

I do. We have a lot of high school and college graduates (especially from depressed areas) with no where to turn except the military - with their promises of a bright future, education, benefits (harhar), etc. Lord only knows what they have been promised. Like us all - they are victims of this misadministration.

[jody]

34. You say "Lord only knows what they have been promised" but in fact,

military recruiters are extraordinarly open in what they "promise" and a new enlistee signs several papers and is counseled precisely on what the military has and has not promised.

Still, enlistees may not understand but the general level of intelligence required is high enough so that misunderstanding should be low.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Not quite

Recruiters do make promises that they know the
military may or may not keep, ranging from
benefits to Military Occupational Specialties.

So to say that recruiters are open it is not quite
true... I know that for a fact, as my niece was
promised the sky... we told her to get it in writing, she did
not, well she joined and was disapointed when she did not get the
MoS she wanted.

[jody]

59. I believe your niece signed a document saying she would get her MoS if

available but the needs of the service came first.

If she did not sign such a form, then I believe she has a legal case against the military because I understand such a form must be signed.

The following form is an example of the effort the military takes to make certain that recruits aren't mislead. Still, people have selective hearing and they often ignore the written word in favor of their understanding of what has been promised.

"Statement of Understanding, United States Army Incentive Enlistment Program" at www .army.mil/usapa/eforms/pdf/A3286_66.PDF

[shanti]

35. hell yeah!

my son and 2 nephews fall under this category, and i DO feel very sorry for them and pay they don't get sent to iraq. 2 are in the a.f. in europe and one nephew is in the navy, to be sent to duty on the U.S.S. RONALD REAGAN soon *shudder*

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. I absolutely have sympathy

I believe we NEED armed forces and that SOME wars are inevitable and some wars are just.

Having said that, it is unconscienable to send our forces to war under false pretenses and it is unconscienable to send them with a poorly fantasized exit strategy.

[Impeach Whistle Ass]

39. I have nothing but contempt for anyone who signed up under Bush

ESPECIALLY after 9/11 and the so-called war on terra. Anyone thinking about joining the military or applying to any federal government job should be required to watch Noam Chomsky's videos, to let them know what exactly they're joining up with: nothing less than the world's foremost terrorist.

[ElkHunter]

40. Those of us that oppose this war...

...must not give the right a tool to hammer us with as they did with the Vietnam era anti-war movement. We must defend our soldiers and not refer to them as "baby killers" or "murderers." To this end we must continually make the point that it is Bush and his gang of rightwing thugs that has endangered the lives of American soldiers but sending them to fight a war that was unnecessary and wrong. I participated in the anti-Vietnam war movement. It should be remembered that the slogan of that earlier anti-war movement was, "Bring Our Troops Home Now!" Such a slogan showed our concern for those sent to fight that war and helped develop anti-war sentiment among the soldiers themselves. It must be remembered also that the Vietnam anti-war movement made a conscious effort at outreach to those in the military. For instance, anti-war coffee houses sprung up near military bases around the country which were havens for soldiers that opposed the war. (does anyone recall the FTA Tour organized by Jane Fonda which an anti-war show for soldiers?) Do not forget that by the end of the Vietnam war organizations composed of former GI's, like Vietnam Veterans Against the War, were in the leadership of the anti-war movement.

Finally, let me share just one story. In the early 70's Nixon decided to make a public display of troops returning from Vietnam to give the impression that the war was winding down. In Seattle they had a ship containing returning troops land at a dock to disembark, ala WW2 style. Funny thing, there were no pro-war folks to greet them. Instead, hundreds of anti-war protesters met the boat and cheered as they walked down the gangplank. In the front of the crowd was a huge banner that read, "Bring Them ALL Home!" These troops were met with cheers, not spat upon as the right would have us believe. It was truly the anti-war movement that was "pro troops" not the right.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

41. Sympathy? Yes. Support? Depends on what you mean

In the locked thread, I didn’t directly answer the question ‘do I have sympathy for the troops?’ Yes, I have sympathy for them, but I don’t know what good that does anyone.

The question morphed into one of supporting the troops, which is what I was responding to previously. If support means to bring them home, absolutely I support the troops. If, however, support means to cheer on the killing that was done, I don’t.

I do feel bad for the troops who are stuck in an awful situation, troops who have to make awful split-second choices sometimes. But I don’t support the job that they’re tasked with.

[bigtree]

43. They get sucked in. They are young.

The No Child Left Behind Act, the Bush education plan, has a provision that gives recruiters more access to students than they ever used to have. The Department of Education made a fact-sheet for schools titled "Access to High School Students and Information on Students by Military Recruiters."
http://www.ed.gov/PressReleases/10-2002/mrguidance.html

It says public and private schools who receive federal aid could jeopardize their funding if they don't give recruiters access to student names and ages and addresses and telephone numbers.
They draw these kids in with promises of full education and other benefits that don't accrue unless you give a lifetime to the service.

Besides, they had every reason to expect that our military would be used to pursue a rational strategy of peaceful,(I mean, peacekeeping) engagements in concert with the UN or NATO. Bush talked in the campaign like he was against this type of colonialistic expansionism. 'Nation-building' he called it. Even his core constituency is bewildered at the breadth of his involvment in this type of foreign interference.

[Clete]

44. Yes, I do have sympathy because the people who enlist are

from the poorer sectors of our society. They enlisted to get benefits for their future and if need be to fight in a just war. The fact that BFEE considers them no more valuable than chess pawns is horrendous and criminal.

[buddhamama]

46. i can have sympathy

i might not understand how, but i'm sure that some were duped by the lies and propaganda re:patriotic Duty,etc,etc, and others may have felt the need to do so for poverty and educational reasons.

[Robin Hood]

55. I only have sympathy for those who didn't want to go in the first place.

The rest can go to hell.

[bigtree]

58. How many do you think want to go to war?

Not many, I suspect.

And then, there is redemption.

[saskatoon]

64. I can't beleive what I just read

You must be one strange weirdo to be so crass and unthinking. Once they were in there Sonny Boy they were forced to go. Jesus, use your head!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. Yes.

Just folks. I feel the same before and after that date. Just folks.

[oldcoot]

63. Yes

Do you remember how the media portrayed Bush during the election? They called both Bush and Gore moderates. Many people (not just the Greens) thought that there was no difference between the two candidates.

We also should consider what Bush's mismanagement of the economy has done to young adults. Many young adults rely on mom and dad to help pay for college. However, if mom and dad just lost their jobs, how are these young adults going to pay for their college education? Many of the jobs opened to people who do not have a college degree do not pay enough and do not offer benefits such as health insurance. I honestly can understand why many young people might consider the military their only option for advancement in society and I do not blame them for turning to the military.