Is Lieberman truly "religious" or is he a fraud?

[IndianaGreen]

Some of the Lieberman apologists delight in saying that our opposition to Lieberman is because he is a religious person. This echoes the GOP propaganda that often says that liberals cannot be religious, or are against religion, by virtue of their political beliefs.

Nothing can be further from the truth! I had the pleasure of marching against the Iraq war in the company of Pax Christi, a deeply religious and pacifist Catholic group. They would take offense at those that belittle their deep faith and religious commitment on the basis of their political stance against the war.

There are many other antiwar groups that have members that are political liberal and are also deeply religious. Unlike Lieberman, or that crazy Ten Commandments judge in Alabama, they don't walk around bragging of their "church attendance." The depth of their faith is measured by their actions and their quiet personal behaviour, not in cheap political posturing.

Is Lieberman truly "religious" or is he a fraud?

Here is a test to see how real or phony is Lieberman's much ballyhoo religiosity:

Will Lieberman stop campaigning during the 10-day period of the High Holidays?

The High Holidays begin this year with Rosh Hashanah, at sundown Friday, September 26, and conclude with Yom Kippur ending at sundown on Monday, October 6.

The most observant Orthodox Jews refrain from any labor during the entire 10-day period of the High Holidays. Most other Jews refrain from work on Rosh Hashanah (and many include the second day after Rosh Hashanah) and Yom Kippur.

Campaigning is work! Will Lieberman suspend his campaign during the High Holidays?

For those as old as I am, do you remember Sandy Koufax of the LA Dodgers? He was an observant Jew, and he would never pitch during the High Holidays.

Let's see how Lieberman stacks up against Koufax!

[lcordero]

1. fraud

the words "just" and "war" do not belong next to each other.

[mitchum]

29. the words "Koufax" and "Lieberman" also do not belong next to each other

[dflprincess]

47. Yes, a liberal can be religious

but the words liberal and Lieberman do not go together.

[JohnKleeb]

2. Go Koufax

A literal lefty(not politically to my knowledge) but he was pissed off at Murdoch lately remember, he was lefthanded like me. BTW Indiana thanks for the info on that Catholic group, I wonder what the nutheads I told everyone about last night would think of em. You are dead on about faith, the best religious people dont say I am relgious now bow to me but they practice great compassion and the like.

[Darranar]

3. I doubt he will stop campaigning...

I believe this issue was brought up before when he was running for vice president, but in regard to the Sabbath.

[robbedvoter]

4. Why only those two choices?

And why discuss Lieberman's religion of all?
There are many shades of observing - between the strict ortodox to those who only observe some traditions. None of them are frauds. Ask me on any other issue about Lieberman and I'll have a different answer. But this is a wrong field, potentially ugly flame bait - and unfair for any candidate (except bush - who thinks God talks to him)

[IndianaGreen]

10. Because I am Jewish, and I am opposed to Lieberman

I am also tired of the veiled accusations of anti-Semitism that are leveled against DUers that oppose Lieberman. On a recent GD poll, only 5 DUers said that opposition to Lieberman was based on his religion. Five out of how many registered DUers? Yet, the Lieberman apologists persisted to smear Lieberman opponents throughout that thread.

BTW, we use the term "observant" and "non-observant" to describe the extent to which we follow Jewish law. For example, most Orthodox do not allow women to sit alongside the men during services. I use the term "most" because I understand the modern Orthodox permit this (I have never seen it, but then, I am not Orthodox).

At our Conservative/Reconstructionist congregation, women fully participate in all aspects of synagogue life. As a matter of fact, one of our rabbis is a woman. The local Reform temple had a woman rabbi until just recently.

This is only an issue because Lieberman has made it an issue. His endorsement of Bill Bennett and Lynne Cheney's cultural wars, put him in the crosshairs of those of us that believe that while religion has always been part of the public square, it never belongs in the public sector!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Orthodox Jews Also Have A Prayer

where they thank G-d for not making them a woman...

[Darranar]

74. Interesting issue here...

The idea is that you thank God for being forced to do more mitzot (commandments) than other groups of people - slaves, non-jews, woman, etc. It's been changed in lots of synagogues.

[JohnKleeb]

20. I had no idea you were Jewish

Ive known damn well that Lieberman isnt liked for other reasons and his religion had nothing to do with it. I agree wtih you on Lieberman totally, I dont like him one bit. Its mostly his attiude not his record that bothers me although some of his record is concerning, its his behavior.

[PurityOfEssence]

5. I believe he's sincere about that

If he compromises his strict orthodox rules to govern, run or work, I don't think that's a fair measure of much. Yes, it's a compromise, but any politician has to understand reality; that's one of the reasons purists and perfectionists bug me so much.

I believe that he truly believes. I just think he's a mealy-mouthed, Quisling with a series of stealth desires to affect public "morality", censorship and the like. He's also a tool of the accounting industry and other big-money concerns, regardless of his record on social issues. He's a creepy, prissy little snit, but I do not question the sincerity of his religion.

Many of the other fundies (and yes, orthodox Judiasm IS a form of fundamentalism) are hypocrites or outright liars, but I believe him on this.

[Darranar]

6. Strict orthodox?

Lieberman is not strict orthodox.

[barbaraann]

12. Here is some info about how Lieberman describes his religion.

...
"Sen. Lieberman, who recently changed his long-time self-description from "Orthodox Jew," implying that he fulfills all of the Torah's dictates, to merely "observant" after cyber columnist Matt Drudge reported he was caught noshing food on the Jewish fast day of Tisha B'Av, made the declaration Friday on Don Imus' syndicated talk radio show."
...

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0900/lieber.marriage.html

That Matt Drudge is really a snitch, isn't he? :-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. There Are Exemptions From The Fasting Laws For Muslims and Jews

For instance soldiers and the elderly can be exempt but I don't see how Joe falls into those categories...

[barbaraann]

18. I could not belong to any religion that required fasting.

:-)

[ikojo]

68. Many are exempt from fasting

if it affects your health in any way.....pregnant women, diabetics, if you must eat to take certain medications etc. The reason people notice folks like LIEberman eating on fast days is because they make SUCH a big deal of their religiosity and righteousness that they set themselves up to be brought down. People are looking for them to fail even in small ways.

I guess LIEberman is sincere in his faith but I don't like to see him as the only representation of American Jews. Few American Jews would side with him, Lynne Cheney and Bill Bennett on the culture wars. Far too often in history Jews have been on the losing end of any culture war battle.

[IndianaGreen]

17. What a hypocrite! Intermarriage is a sensitive issue

Assimilation is the greatest threat that we face in the Diaspora. Intermarriage is a sensitive issue in Judaism. Rabbis would normally won't marry a Jew to a non-Jew unless the non-Jew has converted.

In recent years, while attitudes have changed as intermarriage has become more common, many question whether it contributes to the increasing assimilation, loss of Jewishness, in the American Jewish community.

There are no standard or easy answers. I am more of a traditionalist, and I count myself among those that think that conversion must precede marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew.

Howard Dean is a Congregationalist, yet he married a nice Jewish doctor, and they raised their children in the Jewish tradition (the children are Jewish as a matter of Jewish law).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I Thought Koufax Was A Secular Jew

but there are some holidays that even secular Jews honor...



on edit here's a link-


http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/032903/fea_20030329065.shtml

[StandWatie]

8. ever seen this site?

http://www.joseph2004.org/
:D

Being serious I very much believe he is religious, like crazy religious. He was a member of Center for Jewish and Christian Values along with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, anyone cozing up to those freaks is in league with Satan if not his professed religion.

[Raenelle]

9. Doesn't matter to me. I want a competent intelligent president,

not someone who keeps bleating about faith, and morality, and dignitude, . . . It's all just so boring.

I take that back. It's too public. Elmer Gantry rides again. I think it's phony.

[lumpy]

15. You nailed it

thanks

[charlie]

11. I think he will observe Rosh Hashanah

As far as I know, he didn't campaign during that week in 2000. I don't recall him not observing the Sabbath during that run either.

[unfrigginreal]

16. Both!

n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

19. I'm not sure I like this question.

Has anyone asked if Mario Cuomo or JFK were frauds for tussling with the Catholic Church and not following all of their dictates?

Jews I know range from completely secular to ultra-orthodox, and the observances range widely. Perhaps as widely as Christians do.

Jewish thought is equally diverse, and it's amazing the contrary views I've found concerning abortion, Just War, the environment, capital punishment, and other issues.

I'm not Jewish, and didn't grow up with the Kol Nadri, and don't have the background to fully understand much of this. Questioning Lieberman's jewishness, as an outsider, I find distasteful.

[IndianaGreen]

21. I believe your concerns are answered in the following post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=287629#287712

BTW, we are not discussing Cuomo.

[TreasonousBastard]

49. I am aware we are not discussing Cuomo...

of JFK, for that matter. Or the Quakers Hoover and Nixon. Nixon is a particularly interesting case of religious hypocrisy.

Lieberman's Jewishness is largely between him and his God. How good a Jew he is is not our concern. What may be our concern is how he balances his religious beliefs with the secular job of governing. This was even a concern among some with Carter.

I do detect a smattering of anti-Semitism in many discussions of his religion, and more than that, I see a general ignorance of Judaism that causes people to ask a few more questions than may be normally appropriate.

[ButterflyBlood]

22. it is valid in this case IMO, because

Lieberman wears his religion on his sleeve all the time. If some high profile Catholic was caught eating meat on Friday, most people wouldn't care, but it would valid case for criticism if they kept flaunting their Catholicism like Lieberman keeps flaunting his Judaism. Also the originator of this thread is Jewish.

[TreasonousBastard]

50. Carter wore his religion on his sleeve, too.

And as I already said, I have no interest whatsoever in just how good a Jew Lieberman or anyone else is. That's his rabbi's concern.

The interest should be in how he will govern.

I suspect that Lieberman mentions that he's a Jew reactively. He is the first one, afik, to run for such a high office, and this may be an attempt to head off many of the questions.

As usual, it can raise as many questions as it can head off.

[TheYellowDog]

23. IndianaGreen, let's see how, you,

a professed Jew, stack up against Lieberman. Care to tell us what Jewish laws you adhere to? How many of the 613 mitzvot do you do on a regular basis? One of them is that you shouldn't speak ill of a fellow Jew. ;)

[IndianaGreen]

24. I am not Orthodox

and I am not trying to ban movies or music!

[TheYellowDog]

25. I edited my post

and if you're not Orthodox then you shouldn't attack Lieberman for not following the Jewish laws strictly. It's hypocritical.

And Lieberman is not trying to ban movies or music, that's a distortion of his record. Of course, facts have never mattered much to you.

[IndianaGreen]

26. You either did not read my original post, or...

you are engaging in a strawman argument.

[TheYellowDog]

30. And, by the way,

why do you have the No on Recall - Yes On Bustamante icon in your signature, out of curiosity? If you are an Indiana resident, you are ineligible vote in the California recall election.

[IndianaGreen]

31. And I believe you are trying to start a flame war

yellow dog.

[TheYellowDog]

32. I believe that your presumption would be incorrect, IG.

I don't start flame wars intentionally. ;)

[ButterflyBlood]

27. he once said that

he thought the video game industry should cease further production of all M-rated games.

[TheYellowDog]

That is an opinion.

Saying what he thinks is permitted in our society. He did NOT mean that we should ban the Mature-rated games. I think that he believes it is the responsibility of the parents to decide what kind of games their children play.

[TheYellowDog]

33. By the way,

all Jews, not just Orthodox, are supposed to adhere to as many of the 613 mitzvot as possible.

[Flying_Pig]

37. "One of them is that you shouldn't speak ill of a fellow Jew"...

I was unaware of this law. Of course, being agnostic, and being part-Jewish only by heritage, I suppose it's not surprising.

Perhaps this answers a question I have had for some time though: Why it appears there are many Jews on I/P threads that withhold criticism of Perle, Wolfowitz, Likud, Sharon, et al, despite the terrible things they have done, and likewise, sometimes insinuate or make accusations of anti-Semitism on those who do.

Perhaps I have my answer now..... It's like a "code of silence", which obviously, a number of Jews do not subscribe to, like Indy Green, preferring truth to silence.

Note to Mods: I had a tough time with this one, but posted anyway, in an effort to develop honest conversation on the subject. If you feel it is inappropriate, then, by all means, please delete. Thank you.

[americanabroad]

43. Don't know FP

-Perhaps this answers a question I have had for some time though: Why it appears there are many Jews on I/P threads that withhold criticism of Perle, Wolfowitz, Likud, Sharon, et al, despite the terrible things they have done, and likewise, sometimes insinuate or make accusations of anti-Semitism on those who do.
Perhaps I have my answer now..... It's like a "code of silence", which obviously, a number of Jews do not subscribe to, like Indy Green, preferring truth to silence.

I'm not sure about a "code of silence", although there are alot of Jews I know who won't say anything bad about another person (but they are orthodox and pretty strict). I get the feeling alot of us (Jews) grow up learning and believing that "Israel is always right whatever they do", my dad is pretty socially liberal, but last summer when they visited us here, after an attack by the Palestinians, he said after every attack like this, Israel should go into the West Bank or Gaza and start blowing up houses...I nearly fell on the floor! It's a good thing we were at my inlaws, and they don't understand alot of English, it kind of restrained the argument and we cooled down.

I don't know if it comes from religious school or from our family and friends, but there are alot of us who feel this way...and not only orthodox. Some of it, IMHO, comes from our history, things like the Diaspora and the Holocost, that it's so important to have a physical Israel to be able to go to for protection, and that we need to do everything to protect it, kinda an "ends justify the means" argument...But, I don't know, I'd like to hear what other Jewish DUers think...

[Flying_Pig]

48. I appreciate your post....

IG's thread is about Lieberman though, so I suppose this really isn't the right place to discuss some of these matters. Perhaps another thread. Start one in I/P sometime, as I would love to understand more. As it is, I have a hard time understanding how some folks allow religion to trump morals, and justice, and all seem to do it on one matter or another.

Talk to you on another thread. :hi:

[Tinoire]

60. You must know

if you've spent any time in I/P that it would be locked in 3 seconds flat there!

[americanabroad]

44. Don't know FP

-"Perhaps this answers a question I have had for some time though: Why it appears there are many Jews on I/P threads that withhold criticism of Perle, Wolfowitz, Likud, Sharon, et al, despite the terrible things they have done, and likewise, sometimes insinuate or make accusations of anti-Semitism on those who do.
Perhaps I have my answer now..... It's like a "code of silence", which obviously, a number of Jews do not subscribe to, like Indy Green, preferring truth to silence."

I'm not sure about a "code of silence", although there are alot of Jews I know who won't say anything bad about another person (but they are orthodox and pretty strict). I get the feeling alot of us (Jews) grow up learning and believing that "Israel is always right whatever they do", my dad is pretty socially liberal, but last summer when they visited us here, after an attack by the Palestinians, he said after every attack like this, Israel should go into the West Bank or Gaza and start blowing up houses...I nearly fell on the floor! It's a good thing we were at my inlaws, and they don't understand alot of English, it kind of restrained the argument and we cooled down.

I don't know if it comes from religious school or from our family and friends, but there are alot of us who feel this way...and not only orthodox. Some of it, IMHO, comes from our history, things like the Diaspora and the Holocost, that it's so important to have a physical Israel to be able to go to for protection, and that we need to do everything to protect it, kinda an "ends justify the means" argument...But, I don't know, I'd like to hear what other Jewish DUers think...

[americanabroad]

46. Sorry! Hit it twice!

Sorry about that!

[ikojo]

69. Refraining from lashon hora :Gossip is one of the big mitzvot

that Jews are supposed to observe. There is also the concept of klal yisrael (love of all the Jewish people).

We can criticize LIEberman's politics such as his cozying up to right-wingers such as Robertson, Fallwell, Cheney and Bennett but we should not impune LIEberman's character. As human beings refraining from lashon hora is very difficult indeed. For additional information I refer you to

http://www.uahc.org/rjmag/02summer/gossip.shtml

In Judaism, damaging a person's reputation through gossip is akin to taking his life. The Talmud teaches: "A person's tongue is more powerful than his sword. A sword can only kill someone who is nearby; a tongue can cause the death of someone who is far away" (Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 15b)

Rabbinic laws governing gossip, or lashon hara, are as extensive as they are strict. We are forbidden to relate anything derogatory about others. Even if a negative statement is true, it is still considered lashon hara. If it is false, even partially so, the offense is the more severe motzi shem ra (defamation of character). Also prohibited is rechilut (talebearing, or reporting to someone what others have said about him). Lashon hara violates no fewer than thirty-one biblical commandments, among them: "do not utter (or accept) a false report" (Ex. 23:1), "do not go about as a talebearer among your people" (Lev. 19:16), and "cursed be one who smites his neighbor secretly" (Deut. 27:24).

According to the Chofetz Chayim, we are forbidden:
to discuss a person's negative character traits or to mention his/her misdeeds, even to a person who witnessed them

to make derogatory remarks about someone, even when the information is common knowledge, and even if it causes no harm

to convey a negative response about a person through hints, hand motions, facial expressions, coughs, winks, or tone of voice

to make any statement, even if not explicitly derogatory, which might cause financial loss, physical pain, mental anguish, or any damage to reputation

to reveal any personal or professional information about someone which he/she admitted to us, even if he/she did not request confidentiality

to speak ill of a talmid chacham (scholar) or to ridicule his teaching--a particularly egregious sin if he is the practicing rabbi of a community

[Tinoire]

59. Let me give you a few more mitzvots!

Not to cherish hatred in one's heart (Lev. 19:17)

Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18)

To rebuke the sinner (Lev. 19:17)

Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)

To love the stranger (Gentile) (Deut. 10:19)

Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Gentile) (Ex. 22:20)

Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13)

Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1)

Not to swear falsely in denial of another's property rights (Lev. 19:11)

To restore that which one took by robbery (Lev. 5:23)

Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13)

Not to covet what belongs to another (Ex. 20:14)

Not to crave something that belongs to another (Deut. 5:18)

My friend Indiana Green is one of the BEST representatives of Judaism I have ever met and I would thank you not to openly throw that at her because if Christians Jews Muslims- took the time to understand the depth of God's message we wouldn't be where we are today only remembering politically expediant mitzvots that REEK of TOTALLY missing the two GREATEST mitzvots of them all. God did not put anyone on this earth so they could sit around not speaking ill of their fellow congregationalist! He put us on this earth that we would love Him and love each other.

Indiana shows that love- that fire of justice, truth and peace which must extend to all of God's children.

Thank you StickDog for showing where your priorities are but

most of all... thank you Indiana for living all of the greatest mitzvots! I am honored to have met you and become your friend!

[sangha]

71. How shameful

Calling into question the sincerity of another Jews belief is considered a serious sin. Orthodox Jews, and I know many, are disgusted by it.

[Pepperbelly]

28. I truly have no way of knowing that and cannot tell what is in his soul or

his heart.

Whether or not he campaigns during the holy days ... I guess it would demonstrate how he holds to the traditions but that doesn't, IMO, equal insincerity so much as man's foibles. I won't second guess anyone's religious beliefs, no matter what they are and how they are practiced.

[Skittles]

34. HE IS A PIOUS, SANCTIMONIOUS F***

I CANNOT STAND HIM.

[davidinalameda]

35. Lieberman is Orthodox

if you take a look at his campaigning during the 2000 election, he took the Sabbath off

He's an observant Jew--much more religious than the current born-again White House resident

[IndianaGreen]

36. But he is not the only one that is observant, and that is the point!

The rightwing argument is that the only religious people are those that conform to the most "strict" views, which coincidentally happens to be the ones that are the most politically conservative.

Most Jews are as observant as Lieberman, and I count myself among the observant crowd, and I certainly include all of the other Jewish congregations in Indianapolis. It is a distortion to say that only the Orthodox are observant, and no one else is. It is a smear to say that those of us that oppose Lieberman are motivated by latent anti-Semitism, or that we oppose him because he is Orthodox.

I'll bet those that level those smears are not even aware that the Orthodox are not monolithic and that in Israel you have at least a dozen distinct Orthodox movements ranging from the one that allows women full participation in the synagogue, to those that oppose the existance of Israel because only the Messiah can reestablish Israel.

[TheYellowDog]

38. Well IG

I have been known to level those "smears", and I am aware that the Orthodox are not monolithic, etc, etc. It really has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

[Flying_Pig]

39. See post #37

n/t

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Isere]

41. A religious test for Lieberman to pass?

Truly religious or a fraud? And who are you to establish the criteria? If he fails your test, then you can trumpet "Aha, Joe is a fraud!" and add that to your list of reasons for hating him.

I find all of the Lieberman trashing at DU very distasteful. Maybe he ain't our first choice, but he isn't the goddamn enemy! I don't particularly care for religiousity in anyone so I don't appreciate that characteristic in Bush or in the Christian Coalition or in Joe Lieberman.

To start a thread with the sole purpose of stirring up anti-Joe sentiment strikes me as not very useful and not very sporting.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Who said "the Bush recession will be followed by the Dean depression"?

Lieberman is fair play as long as the criticism is focused on his stands on the issues, and the things he did or failed to do.

Lieberman's record is one of spouting the same moralistic pronouncements of the likes of Bill Bennett, the compulsive gambler that authored The Book of Virtues, and Lynne Cheney who started a blacklist of colleges that did not conform to her rightwing ideology.

These are valid issues to be raised anytime a candidate is running for the Presidency.

Published on Thursday, December 13, 2001 in the San Jose Mercury News
Lynne Cheney-Joe Lieberman Group Puts Out a Blacklist
by Roberto J. Gonzalez

AN aggressive attack on freedom has been launched upon America's college campuses. Its perpetrators seek the elimination of ideas and activities that place Sept. 11 in historical context, or critique the so-called war on terrorism.

The offensive, spearheaded by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, a Washington-based group, threatens free speech, democratic debate and the integrity of higher education. In an incendiary report, ``Defending Civilization: How Our Universities Are Failing America,'' the American Council claims that ``colleges and university faculty have been the weak link in America's response'' to Sept. 11. It also asserts that ``when a nation's intellectuals are unwilling to defend its civilization, they give comfort to its adversaries.''

The report documents 117 campus incidents as ``evidence'' of anti-Americanism. More than 40 professors are named, including the president of Wesleyan University, who suggested in an open letter that ``disparities and injustices'' in American society and the world can lead to hatred and violence.

Other examples abound. A Yale professor is criticized for saying, ``It is from the desperate, angry and bereaved that these suicide pilots came.'' A professor emeritus from the University of Oregon is listed for recommending that ``we need to understand the reasons behind the terrifying hatred directed against the U.S. and find ways to act that will not foment more hatred for generations to come.''

Dozens more comments, taken out of context and culled from secondary sources, are presented as examples of an unpatriotic academy.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

[Isere]

45. Yes, I agree that it is fair to examine a candidate's record

and we should do so.

But I don't think any other candidate has had his or her record combed over on this board quite so finely as Joe Lieberman's. My feeling is that there is geniune personal animosity to him which makes his record and his character come under intense scrutiny.

Have the records of Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, etc. inspired such detailed interest? I don't post here all that often so maybe I am uninformed. But that's my hunch.

[IndianaGreen]

52. Kerry has been subjected to closer scrutiny than Lieberman

and he has been as roundly criticized for his vote on the Iraq war as Lieberman has. The difference between Kerry and Lieberman is that while we may disagree with Kerry on the basis of one crucial vote, we share more in common with Kerry than with Lieberman. Kerry is a liberal, his Iraq vote notwithstanding, and he has a good record of supporting liberal causes.

Kerry would make a fine President, not as good as Dean, and not as liberal as Kucinich, but he would restore respect for the rule of law and make us all proud again of our Presidents, and our country.

I cannot make the same prediction about Lieberman. I see little, if any daylight, between Bush's policies and Lieberman.

Lieberman has earned a lot of the animus that is expressed against him. His liberal record on women and gay rights, is more than overshadowed by his siding with the Arkansas project, his surrender to Cheney on the debates, his throwing in the towel on the military ballots cast after Election Day, his endless moralistic sermonizing, his unholy alliances with notable social conservatives, and his own offensive speeches in which he berated and questioned the patriotism of liberals that refused to yield to the Bush agenda. And this is only a partial list of a litany of things Lieberman has done!

I have given kudos to Lieberman on this board. I have written that unlike another leading candidate, Lieberman has been consistent on Iraq. I have pointed out that Lierberman wanted Saddam out, with or without WMD as an issue. I have given credit to Lieberman for not waffling, and credit is all he gets from me.

[Isere]

63. Well, I beg to differ about the light between Bush and Lieberman

Do you not see light between them in the quality of their judicial appointments, their attitude about the environment, and workers rights, for starters? Ye Gods, if people really and truly think that Bush and Lieberman are equivalent, then we are in big trouble!

I quite agree about many of the reasons you stated (his lousy debate performance with Cheney, the military ballots, etc.) but I don't know what you mean by his support for the Arkansas project. Are you saying he support the Scaife project to destroy Clinton? That would be news to me.

However, I still don't understand why starting a post to dissect whether he is properly observant or a fraud serves any purpose other than to personally smear him.

[barbaraann]

53. Actually, I think Kerry's membership in Skull and Bones has

been debated in about 2 million threads.

Ok, well, maybe not quite that many, but A LOT. :-)

[IndianaGreen]

54. The topic of Kerry's medals also comes up quite often

On the whole, I think Kerry has been the most analyzed candidate running for office today. I don't think there is anything about Kerry that the Republicans could find that it hasn't been discussed in DU ad infinitum.

Speaking of Kerry's military record, what about Lieberman's?

According to his bio, Lieberman:

He received his bachelor's degree from Yale College in 1964 and his law degree from Yale Law School in 1967. Lieberman was elected to the Connecticut State Senate in 1970 and served there for ten years, including the last six as Majority Leader.

http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsite/biography.cfm?lowsrc=true

How did Lieberman managed to escape the draft during the height of the Vietnam war???????

[TheYellowDog]

56. Maybe his number wasn't called, IG?

Have you EVER thought of that? Have you ever studied the draft and how it works? Not everyone's number is called.

[IndianaGreen]

57. There was no draft lottery in 1967, when Lieberman lost his deferment

Between 1967 and 1970, Lieberman was eligible for the draft. The first draft lottery was not held until December 1, 1969.

[TheYellowDog]

67. Then I have no excuses for Lieberman

Sorry. :shrug:

[Tinoire]

61. Lieberman avoided Vietnam War draft

The Associated Press

Lieberman avoided Vietnam War draft
Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, the running mate of Democrat Al Gore, avoided serving in the Vietnam War with two deferments, one as a student and another for being a father, Eric Kleiman, a spokesman, said Tuesday.

http://quest.cjonline.com/stories/080900/gen_0809005340.shtml

[sujan]

51. Lieberman is truly religious

a psycho

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uptohere]

58. isn't this between him and God ?

I would think that the only thing you have any business debating is whether or not he is a good candidate or a good Democrat.

[not systems]

70. between me and my video games and movies

You would be right if he wasn't a censor and
and advocate of increased censorship.

Because he is not private about his views and uses
them to suppress art that is a variance with his
beliefs, I care what he believes.

[sangha]

72. So it's OK to censor movies and video games

just so long as he observes the High Holy Days?

If not, then why bring his religion into it? If you don't like censorship, you don't have to attack his religion - attack his censorship

[not systems]

73. I agree

Religion should not be brought in to it.

People should not use religion to justify censorship.

[Tinoire]

62. Liberman is no more religious than

Bush is religious.


What does the Word of God say about murders of Iraqi children?

How is violating God's will in the name of a flag any differant than doing it in the name of a stone idol?

[Anti-fascist]

64. Sorry, but I have to go against the grain on this subject.

It's not so much the fact that he's Jewish that bothers me; it's that he is a fanatic. This rabidly pro-Israeli Jew would have no credibility in foreign policy issues neither here nor abroad. No Arab leader would be caught dead shaking his hand unless they'd want to be assassinated.

Lieberman = Jewish version of Bush. This is the last thing we want when Arab terrorists are telling people that America is their enemy.

[dsc]

65. I find this offensive

and am amazed you are posting this. I admit to not knowing as much about Judaism as you do but I do know a little. I worked in a Yeshiva for a year as a teacher (I am not Jewish I taught them math). I know that many of them wouldn't consider you Jewish. There are many reasons to oppose Lieberman. I think his primary campaign has been both a disaster for him and meanspirited. But I don't, and you shouldn't, give a hoot if he is 'religious enough'. BTW If you really wanted an answer to his you could have looked at what he did in 2000. I think that would have answered the question.

[chefgirl]

66. I dont believe Lieberman is a religious fraud.....

I think Lieberman is a true believer, in the same way that Justice Roy Moore is a true believer.
It doesnt matter to me one bit WHAT someone's religion is. What bothers me about Lieberman is that he portrays himself as nothing so much as he is religious, which in his case happens to be Jewish.
When Al Gore named him as the VP nominee, I must admit that the only thing I really knew about Lieberman was that he was vociferous in his condemnation of President Clinton during the impeachment hearings. I thought then that it was in bad form for him to do that, but I was willing to give him a measure of respect for standing up for what he believed in, regardless of the collective position of his fellow Dems.
As the 2000 campaign rolled along, however, it seemed that ALL I ever heard from Lieberman was how religious he was, and how because of his faith, he supported certain ideas that I couldnt agree with as a Democrat.
For that reason, and no other, I dont believe Lieberman (or anyone who insists on wearing their religiosity on their sleeve) should hold any position in the government of these United States, least of all the office of the Presidency.

-chef-