I am worried about Reagan or Ford dying before the next election.

[UrbScotty]

I've been thinking about our former Presidents and how they have been doing.

Obviously, Clinton, at 57, seems to be doing well. Carter and Bush also seem to be rather healthy, despite the fact that both turn 80 next year.

And then there are Ford and Reagan, one of whom, my dad says, will likely die before the end of the year. Ford, 90, suffered heatstroke(?) on a golf course in May. He gets around occasionally; I saw him do an interview which aired around his 90th birthday.

Reagan, OTOH, is in horrible shape. His Alzheimer's is in a latter stage, and he has hardly gotten around for a few years. It's like he's dead, but he's still alive, so to speak. Something tells me that he won't make it very much longer.

That concerns me. While, yes, I do believe RR was overated, I would not want to see him die. When he does die, there will obviously be an outpouring of grief and sympathy for Nancy and the family. And if he dies before the next election, Bush/Cheney/Rove would likely spin it for their gain, of course: "Win one for the Gipper" and all that.

I also have a very sick feeling that some Republicans might actually try to get Reagan to die before 11/2/04. With Bush's numbers so low, terrorism and war might not be able to save Bush anymore; those are old ideas (as is falsely attacking our nominee in TV ads). Having Reagan or Ford die to gain sympathy votes seems like a new, better idea of rescuing Bush.

So, how would our nominee counteract that?

[maveric]

1. Reagan my have died a year or so ago and is on ice...

He'll be thawed and the sad sad story about our greatest president will be released in Oct, 2004.

[Habibi]

13. Heh.

I've had that thought too. Wouldn't put it past them.

[JasonBerry]

24. Reagan's Can't STAND the Bush Family

There is NO WAY Nancy Reagan would do anything to help George W. Bush. No way! Nancy cannot stand the Bush family - never has liked them. For that matter, neither did RR! They had a very cold relationship with the Bush's while they were in the White House. Several of the good biographies of Reagan's presidency go into detail about this. Bush was not his REAL choice for VP in 1980. It was all about POLITICS.

After Iran-Contra, which Bush, Inc. (yep, same bunch) clearly manipulated and actually ran out of the Veeps office; Nancy and Reagan's "California crowd," has nothing but contempt for the Bush family. In fact, as in noted in several biographies, George Bush - the Vice President! - was never as in not once invited to the Reagan's residential floor. Does that tell you anything?

Many historians believe that Bush and his cronies took advantage of Reagan's illness, especially late in his term, to further his own goals and those of his establishment friends.

I did not like Reagan's policies - but the Bushies he was not.

[lcordero]

2. If they make a big deal out of Reagan passing this will infuriate a lot of

Blacks and Latinos.

[liberalnurse]

3. Reagan is the one I would be most concerned.

Alzheimers is a chronic, progressive disease. He's in the end stages I do believe.


Now Nancy is so controlling and devoted, they ain't going to do anything..... Remember, Ronnie Jr. is a democrat. If he even suspected fowl play, he'd be on them like flies on honey.

[kskiska]

15. But suppose Nancy goes first?

That's her worst nightmare, she says. Then Ronnie would be in the hands of Ron Jr. and Patti, if they can get adopted Michael out of the picture. I'll be t there'll be a battle over the will.

[Clete]

18. Tell me something.

I have known people who died from Alzheimers and they went a lot quicker than Reagan, once they reached the stage of having to be put in a nursing home. When they get to the point that they forget how to eat, isn't that when they are let go? It seems to me Reagan has had it for such along time that he must have reached that stage a long time ago. Is it possible they have him hooked up to keep him alive until the right moment to announce his death?:tinfoilhat: Can this be done?

[JasonBerry]

26. Clete - see my post #24 - N/T

~

[amazona]

55. Alzheimer's can last for 30 years!

Yes, if they keep feeding them after they forget how to eat, obviously it keeps them going longer. Alzheimer's progresses at different rates -- many people have it for 20 years, and 30 years is not unknown. Reagan has had "acknowledged" Alzheimer's since 1987 -- 16 years. He is not necessarily at the point where he has forgotten how to eat -- although he may be. Great variance with this disease. Those who go in 8 years or less are lucky. We have a problem with pinpointing exactly where the disease begins. Looking back at events in my family, I think it's possible for someone to still be walking around after 20 years. It's extremely variable.

On Edit: By "walking around" I mean literally still walking -- not yet at the stage where they have forgotten how to walk. It is scary how long it can take to progress.

[diplomats]

4. That just might remind everyone

how much worse Bush is than Reagan, and I didn't even like Reagan.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Looking back fondly at Reagan.....

That's how bad it is. :-(

[poskonig]

5. The GOP base is going to turn out no matter what.

The question is --

Will we turn on Democrats to turn them out like Rev. Al says, or will we just be vague and waffle?

The GOP juices up their base everytime. Meanwhile, our party acts like they are ashamed of their base (minorities, professionals, & working women).

[gristy]

6. I don't see these events having any impact at all.

No matter when they happen.

[Generic Other]

7. I will not participate in ANY Reaganidolatry

And will go out of my way to scoff at any such behavior.

Besides, Bush won't share the stage with anyone--Reagan, the 9/11 widows, the soldiers in Iraq, or even Barney.

on edit: But he will use them for a backdrop.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calm_blue_ocean]

10. I wouldn't worry about the death of Ford too much. nt

[Jose Diablo]

11. I want to see the papers

It is news worthy that *Bush has sealed presidential papers from Reagan years through his years.

Where does this guy get the power to close openness to what he is doing and what he has done from "We the people", the American people.

Also, it seems like there was some intresting news about Bush Sr papers locked away at some library in Texas cannot be found, lack of people to do the work or something like that.

It troubles me about lack of openness in our government. Has anybody else noticed how the reasons for policy seem to be dictated behind closed doors.

I don't think it should be allowed that major policy actions be taken without "we the people" be allowed to concure.

Closing and locking away secret meetings of those we trust to do the 'right' thing for us, the ones that "represent" us, violates a principle of openness. Who can say these people truly represent our interests?

Maybe it is not "our" government, more like a government of someone else.

We are the power. It is not "their" government to say what we should know. It is our government, not theirs. We trust them to work for us. Maybe we shouldn't trust them.

Oil your guns.

[loudnclear]

12. Who can look back "fondly" on the Reagan years or the man?

You must be joking.

[Jose Diablo]

14. Reagan was an asshole just like Bush

Here is a guy that got his first taste of power in WWII by riding heard on Hollywood.

He was big on unions then, oh yes, to furthure his own power quest over other actors.

Reagan was one of the biggest assholes in this century. But yet, he has airports, roads, ect named after him.

Go figure.

[JasonBerry]

32. But, he was not a criminal

Maybe we don't like his politics, but he didn't isolate himself and try to turn our constitutional rights into a memory. One of his best friends after his presidency was TIP O'NEIL. That fought tooth and nail but grew to have great respect for one another. No, Reagan was NOT "as big an asshole" as * ---- no way. Disagree with his policies all you want - but he wasn't a Bushie.

[amazona]

56. Reagan was certainly a criminal

There is no doubt that such actions as Iran/Contra and the Boys of Summer were criminal activity under U.S. law. You may say that he was already brain-damaged by the time of becoming the U.S. president -- hence not responsible for his crimes -- and this may (or may not) be true. But there is no denying that the Reagan administration was the biggest theft of public resources since the U.S. Grant administration.

I pity him because he has a terrible disease -- a disease that we would not force a pet cat to suffer through but, even knowing there is no chance of cure or recovery, we torture our relatives by putting them through this. So I do pity him. And I pity his family. And I pity his children who fall asleep every night wondering when this probably genetic disease is going to affect them.

But don't romanticize him. There are many people with Alzheimer's. They do not all get involved with being figureheads for crime. Something made them choose him...and I think it was that he was always a little evil. Selling out your co-workers to Joe McCarthy is not the sign of a decent human being.

[TheYellowDog]

16. Conspiracy theories are abound here at DU

Republicans might try to get Reagan to die before the 2004 election? I don't think so. Reagan is even more beloved by Republicans than Bush is. Reagan and FDR are two of the most popular presidents that this country has ever had. Republicans don't want him dead. It's a conspiracy theory, that's all it is.

[Jose Diablo]

19. FDR was really a cool act

Think about it. Here was a guy, crippled by polio, that got the American people solidly behind an agenda.

What was the unemployment? I forget, but believe me it was far, far higher than today.

FDR was rich, but so what? He projected an image of care for those that were really hurting.

I think FDR really cared about people, even though he was rich. It doesn't really matter how wealthy a person is, what really matters is how they think of other people; does he/she care? This is most important in selecting who we want to represent us. It is not wealth, but vision on what they think is important. Does that vision coinside (sic) with mine?

You may notice I wrote he/she on do they care?

I think it is time we men take a hard look ourselves. Should we even think about a woman president?

I don't know. But I do know there is a precident of bad leadersip lately.

I have a idea about women. Maybe its wrong. But this idea is that women nuture and us guys, well mostly we fight. Maybe a woman would be better for leadership, I don't know. We have done a lousy job so far in this world.

I am only thinking here.

[JohnKleeb]

20. FDR was terrific I agree

He is my all time favorite president. He was a rich man but his heart was the richest thing about him. He defined the democratic party as we know it. His words and vision was simply amazing.

[JasonBerry]

36. Mine too, John!

~

[sushi]

46. I LIKE you!

You're not wrong. Too many male leaders have caused wars. India, Pakistan, Britain, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and, hopefully soon, Burma, and some Scandinavian countries have/had a female President or Prime Minister. It's time the US put a woman in the WH.

[ButterflyBlood]

39. to rank and file Republicans maybe

but I don't think Karl Rove cares too much about how beloved someone is. He'll do anything to further his cause.

[nostamj]

17. Nancy HATES bushies

she will NOT allow them to exploit Ronnie's passing. (if she's alive that is)

[wuushew]

21. A taste of the Raygasam

Builders expect the Reagan Pyramid to be ready in time for the Great Communicator's mummification and ascension into the Afterworld upon death. Among the items to be entombed with Reagan are 2,500 MX missiles, a golden chalice of jelly beans and his beloved servant, George Bush.

"Only the most gigantic tomb ever created will be worthy of the Great Communicator," said former Reagan Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger. "As his mortal subjects, it is our holy duty to provide Reagan with a burial commensurate with his stature, in order that he may enter the Realm of Death bedecked with raiments and honors so that he may take his rightful place beside the mighty Sun God, Ra."

http://www.theonion.com/onion3002/reagan.html

[JohnKleeb]

22. one of the best onion articles of all time imho

[Jose Diablo]

30. I take my screennaname from my initials

Not from Reagans like of candy.

In one of my previous lifes (taken as what I did, not from existence) I was known as Jellybean> JB.

As a Phonefreak, I was also known as Jellybean. Leading into what a phonefreak does, I was a technician at the phone factory.

I talked to many technicians across the usa also the world, about solving problems with circuits between our offices. And at the end of each conversation we would give our initials to each other. Mine was JB, as in Jellybean.

This is who I was, and who I claim to be today. Not so guy that liked Reagan, that prick.

[RobertFrancisK]

23. In Reagan's defense . . .

While I hate how conservative he was, I give him a lot of credit for being able to take down the soviet empire without using force. And in defense of his IranContra coverup, there really is a good chance he didn't remember what happened because of the alheimerz.

[davidinalameda]

27. he had little to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union

it was being crushed under its own weight; nationalism was increasing in the eastern Europeans countries and the Soviet republics and you had Yeltsin standing up to Gorby

it was all internal

Ronnie had nothing to do with the collapse.

[wuushew]

28. If only it was true, since Raygun did NOT take down the U.S.S.R.

The Soviets had been spending something like 70% of their GDP on defense years before Raygun came to the scene.

[davidinalameda]

25. Ronnie is still alive

I thought that was a robot from Disneyland

[VolcanoJen]

29. When Nixon died in April of 1994...

... there was an outpouring of rather retro-historical grief and empathy. I don't think it really ended up hurting Clinton, and I don't think it led to Gingrich's neo-con revolution, either.

It's a good point, but I think we have bigger fish to fry than the potential deaths of ex-presidents.

Not worried, although even though I'm no fan of Reagan's, I won't be dancing on his grave, either,
Jennifer

[Anti-fascist]

31. I have always wanted to know...

Will someone tell me what in the name of f--- is a Gipper? It's been getting on my nerves how this guy whose brain was already starting to rot while he was president is all idolized.

Among many detestable Reagan quotes:

"There you go again..."
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."



Don't even lump Ford into the same pool as Reagan. They were enemies. Ford was conciliatory and diplomatic; whereas Reagan was reckless and started the trend of Republicans using their "ranch" as campaign propaganda.

[Clete]

33. He played in the move about Knute Rockne the legendary football

coach of Notre Dame. I never saw the movie but there was some reference to the Gipper in it. Maybe someone else can expand on this.

[MisterP]

37. he once missaid it as "gippet"

oy

[Jose Diablo]

38. Gipper-Was it James Cagney?

Seems like there was a movie about football at Notre Dame, I forget who played the coach, but a line in the movie about winning the game was, "lets win this game for the gipper".

Why is it we play out our existence to some hollywood script? It is like we have all these meme created in hollywood about how we think.

Does anyone in america have a independent life from hollywood or madison avenue?

[DemBones DemBones]

43. I think that there was a Notre Dame player named Gipp --

George Gipp, I believe it was, and he died, or maybe he was just dying. So "Win one for the Gipper" meant to do it for the dead (or dying) team-mate. But I never saw the movie either, and can't remember if Reagan played the Gipper or said the line. I'm sure you could google this and get the details, though.

[JasonBerry]

35. I disagree

I have a feeling some of the posters here didn't live through the Reagan years as political observers.

Bush DOES use his Crawford ranch as a gimmick to pretend he's a man when he's actually a wimp. Reagan was a man and for him - going to the ranch to chop wood was just something Reagan would do! Not so for * ......

I never saw anything wrong with the "tear down that wall" statement. Gorbachev, himself, called it a "master stroke." Gorby, by the way, has a lot of respect for Reagan.

[Jose Diablo]

40. Well I agree to disagree

It is irrevelent to me that the gipper chopped wood, he was still an asshole.

Nor did he bring down USSR. The Russians did that on their own.

But Reagan did drop plenty of dimes on fellow actors to gain power.

Believe me when I say say I lived through him.

And I say, Reagan was an asshole, period.

[Anti-fascist]

41. Yeah, Gorbachev respected him because...

getting bribed tends to have that effect on you.

Bush, Reagan; bah. Same neocons who humiliated Ford, one of the only decent Republican presidents of the last century.

And no-one has told me what a gipper is. I looked it up in the dictionary, but it's not there. Is it like a gimp?

[newyawker99]

60. Hi Anti-fascist!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[cmd]

34. Would * go to either of their funerals?

He doesn't like being upstaged.

[mlawson]

52. OMG! He would be the chief speaker!

KKRove would absolutely see to that. I understand that Nancy R detests the bushies. But I can't see her making a scandal by refusing to let the president (sic) speak at her husband's funeral. It just isn't done.

Now, she might ALSO invite Big Dog to speak; that would be PERFECT -- the whole country (world) would get to see the contrast!!

[Booberdawg]

42. I don't believe it will have any impact

[tom_paine]

44. Oh, I think it's very possible...would be in keeping with the Caeser motif

that seems to follow the Busheviks...

Sept.-Oct. 2004 -- Raygun "dies"

Very likely. Very likely indeed. Then a free Corporate TV Pravda Paen that will make the funeral of Stalin look like a kid's parade.

Oh my yes, I could absolutely see the Busheviks administering a little KCl behind the ear (heart attack, you know).

[rasputin1952]

45. Reagan will most likely pass away within 6 mo's...

Alzheimer's is a brutal disease, and even though I didn't like Reagan, my heart goes out to him, (but not to the Ice Queen). From a medical point of view, he's been known to have the disease for some 13+ years; add the age factor, and the math is somewhat obvious.
RR is also getting the absolutely finest medical care in the world, and there will be no expense spared to keep him breathing as long as possible.

Jimmy Carter seems to be exceptionally healthy for his age, and is extremely active.

GHW Bush, old and decrepit, but somewhat alert. Medically, he seems OK.

Gerry Ford, a truly nice and honest guy. Thrust into a situation that had to fail. Fortunately....nothing of any great importance catastrophically came about during his term.

Clinton....Just fine.

gw bush....he's just a little too stupid to remember to breathe, but he's got staff to remind him.

IF RR or GF pass on, the GOP will capitalize on the death, guaranteed. NOTHING in politics happens by chance. No one will bring up Iran-Contra, or all of the banalities of the Reagan admin, it just isn't proper to do that.

We've had a long history of acceptance of a president's death. Hoover, Truman, and many others were treated fairly, it's what the public expects. But if they try to place RR into sainhood, they've shot themselves in both feet. People will not tolerate that.

[Jose Diablo]

48. Iran Contra

Don't count on nobody bringing this up if RR passes.

I would not be suprised if Rather brings this up very shortly, along with Bush sr involvement in Latin American drug running as Director of CIA in Latin America in my opinion. Think of the other end of the Iran Contra transactions. All this while Ronnie and Nancy said "Just say no".

It is more like the war on drugs was really to elliminate competition. Bush sr was deep into this in my opinion.

Ever wonder why nobody hears about Noriaga lately. And ever wonder why it seems to be strangely quit about why exactly Noriaga was wanted so despritely to be put in jail?

There are mutiple versions of history about America.

I think it is past time we where told all the versions.

Edit> to add Ronnie and Nancy statements.

[rasputin1952]

57. Iran/Contra may pop up soon...

but wopuld not be used ina political sense if RR died, at least not immediately.

I bring it up all the time when I hear the starry-eyed crowd talk about how "great" R&N were. My basic philosophy on it is, if he knew, it was treason; if he didn't know, he was incompetent. No win in either case for the RR lovers.

[stevedeshazer]

53. I wouldn't say that about Ford.

Ford knew what he was doing when he pardoned Nixon. He and Henry Kissinger knew what they were doing when they gave permission to Suharto to invade East Timor, an act (LIHOP) that caused the murder of a quarter-million people.

Not that anyone will remember, though.

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2003/13.html

[rasputin1952]

58. I agree he knew what he was doing when Nixon was pardoned...

but in hindsight, I have no real problem with that. Perhaps Nixon should have been tried, but to be the first president to leave office under such disgrace was effectively enough for me.

[lanlady]

47. Ford's death--

--would not cause a ripple. He's mainly remembered as the man who pardoned Nixon.

[bluestateguy]

49. Good point

Not about Ford, who was never the darling of the conseravtives who noe control the party. Reagan, on the other hand is another story. If he kicks off close to the election, yes, it could be a mobilizing force for conservatives--the same people who puritanically lectured us about the Wellstone memorial--and it would make it dificult for the (D) nominee to say anything negative about *.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. Any of the former presidents could die, even Clinton,

and the death of any of them would get a good bit of media attention and probably a big funeral. But influence the election?

Thinking back, I remember the turn-outs for the funerals of JFK, MLK, RFK. People turned out across the country to see the train carrying RFK's body home from California, just as (before my time!) they did for the train that took FDR home after his death at Warm Springs, GA. (Was there also a funeral train for MLK? Or am I transposing parts of his funeral with RFK's? They were so close together in 1968.) It's funny how I see these events in terms of photos from Life magazine more than anything else. Still photos capture stories better than video.

I can't see people turning out for any of the Republicans the way they did for FDR, JFK, MLK, or RFK. Can anyone else? All of them had positions of great power when they died. FDR and JFK were in office at the time of their deaths, MLK was a major civil rights leader, RFK likely to have been the next president (LBJ had announced he wouldn't run.) JFK, MLK, and RFK were also fairly young men and all were assassinated.

Former presidents have no power in the eyes of most people (we know Poppy Bush is connected with a lot of things via the Carlyle Group) and only Clinton is young enough for people to be surprised if he died. The politicians will turn out for these funerals because they have to but I can't imagine the public getting too broken up about men in their eighties and above dying. I have friends who are in their eighties and I'll be very sad when they die but there's no way anyone could say they were cheated out of a full lifespan.

Another factor is that the family gets to make choices about funerals and none of these men will leave a young widow. Nancy Reagan and Barbara Bush will want their husbands honored but how much hoopla do they want to go through? (And it's already been said that Nancy doesn't like any of the Bushes so she won't want to help them in any way.) I don't think Betty Ford cares much about hoopla and I'm betting Rosalynn Carter will go for simplicity and dignity at Plains Baptist Church, probably with a later large memorial service at the Carter Center in Atlanta.

The interesting question is what happens to Dubya when Poppy dies? How does he deal with the death of the father he's always tried to emulate but resented?

[Kat45]

51. I was thinking the exact same thing about Reagan.

And how sick would that be if bush won again because of that! But everything involving these repukes is sick, which unfortunately makes this a possibility.

[amazona]

54. my thoughts

As a person w/ Alzheimer's in the family, it will be a blessing to the family and an end to suffering when Reagan goes. I could not begrudge them that. He no longer remembers who he was or what he did -- if he ever knew. I personally believe he was suffering from early Alzheimer's while in office. Take a quiet moment, and view his speeches and decisions even while running for office in 1980, and ask yourself if he was ever anything but a puppet.

As for Gerald Ford, there will be no outpouring of grief. It is his wife who is the popular, sympathetic figure. Ford is forgotten by the young, and despised by the old for his role in the pardon of Nixon. It'll be an instant re-hash of Watergate when he dies -- a ten minute wonder, which the GOP will quickly sweep under the rug. They want his era forgotten as much as we do.

How can our candidate fight this? Be decent. Pray for the family and send them his (or her) best wishes. And move on.

[rasputin1952]

59. Just a note on Ford...

although he was in quite a predicament, he handled it rather well, after all there really weren't ay precedents to go by. I'm not defending him, just understanding him.

Ford was the last of the real Republicans, those before the neo-cons took over the GOP and turned it into something resembling fascism.

Mediocre, kind of clumsy, all too human.

But his funeral will be nothing compared to former presidents funerals.

[UrbScotty]

61. You're right.

With what he had to face, Ford did pretty well.