Has anybody here read Philip Roth's

[LiberalEconomist]

"The Plot Against America." I think he really nails how closely this country has been on the edge between liberal democracy and fascism. Currenty we are seeing the latter erupt like a festering boil.

[salin]

1. I don't think most people know what fascism is

and tend to think of it as just a hastily flung insult... thereby rendering the warning rather neutered (the merger of corporate and government power into a totalitarian economic and political system).

[Eloriel]

37. And it doesn't have to be all that totatiltarian either

For example, you can retain the illusion of democracy, by say continuing to have elections while rigging the vote -- imperceptively or at least unprovably, of course.

Fascism is one of my favorite subjects. So I've collected a few links on the subject (not in any particular order):

"fas-cism (fbsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm


Keywords: Fascism
(with list of characteristics)
http://keywords.oxus.net/archives/000026.html

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

Friendly Fascism (Excerpts etc from Bertram Gross's book)
http://a4a.mahost.org/gross.html

What Is Fascism
(This one is quite good and incl. two-tiered legal system as well as many other hallmarks, and Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and additional links)
http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/Politics/Structure3.htm

Superpower Democracy (another must read)
http://www.greaterdemocracy.org/2003_07_01_gd.html#105880160504381723


IS AMERICA BECOMING FASCIST?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2159330
This article: IS AMERICA BECOMING FASCIST? http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/fascism.htm


Mussolini in his own words.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2413173

1944 article: American fascism (April 1944 article in NYTimes -- also see 1940s section for the complete article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387

The F Scale
(Measures one's authoritarian personality profile, which makes one receptive to fascism, based on research done after WW2)
http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
link posted here: He's Acting Like Nixon in the Final DaysHas Bush Gone Over the Edge? (has some good links re fascist personality, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1725171

Bethune Institute Anti-Fascist Studies
http://bethuneinstitute.org/index2.html

The Spectre of Friendly Fascism by Bertrand Gross
(book excerpt)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Specter_FriendlyFascism_FF.html

Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt
By Umberto Eco
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

Freedom to Fascism -- -- A Bumpy Ride
http://207.44.245.159/article7054.htm

Germany In 1933: The Easy Slide Into Fascism
Bernard Weiner, June 9, 2003
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm

The Brownshirting of America
http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts75.html

Several articles here: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles.htm


Living Under Fascism
Davidson Loehr
7 November 2004
First UU Church of Austin
http://www.uua.org/news/2004/voting/sermon_loehr.html
-------------------------------------------------------
Some Book Recommendations:
barb1622000 (1000+ posts) Sun Sep-19-04 01:32 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2367949&mesg_id=2369563&page=
29. there are several books
and I don't know if they are still in print but they are probably at university libraries

1. International Relations Between the Two World Wars 1919-1939 by E. H. Carr, Harper & Row, 1947
2. The Crisis of German Ideology by George Mosse
3. The German Catastrophe by Friedrich Meinecke
4. Varieties of Fascism by Eugen Weber

I think the world was quite stunned when Hitler became more powerful and then finally became Chancellor in the mid 1930s. They simply didn't know what to do about it. National socialism was going on in several countries at the same time, including the USA during the time and check the fourth book for an outstanding exposition of the various forms by country.
----------------------------------------------

ORWELL'S VISION IS STILL ALIVE IN 2003
http://www.orwelltoday.com/orwellvision.shtml


---------------------
TahitiNut (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-20-04 01:49 PM
12. You mean China, Inc.?
"Fascism" isn't an ideology ... it doesn't engage in intellectually honest discussion regarding the "features" or "advantages" of fascism. This is predominnatly due to one of the core beliefs of fascists: the people are an almost mindless herd. THere is, therefore, no interest in honest public discourse. It's an "ideology" of narrow power and privelege - where 'the people' are merely a labor resource or cannon fodder. It's an attitude of "the public are the servants."
China is there. Any semblance of 'communism' in China is mere facade or window dressing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2516368#2517408

--------------------------


COMPARISONS and WARNINGS -- LINKS

WAKE UP! - Strauss / Neocons and Terror PLUS dire warnings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1780890#


They Thought They Were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

Fascism Anyone? by Laurence W. Britt
http://secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

Wake Up and Smell the Fascism
(examples of Britt's 14 points)
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History
by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

The Rise of the Fourth Reich
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/reich.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm

20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm

The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

America, We Have a Problem
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4dodd.htm

Fascism and America Today
by Aldo Vidali
http://www.apj.us/20010312fascism.html

Roads to Fascism: Sixty Years Later
by Roderick T. Long
http://www.lewrockwell.com/long/long7.html

This is the Fight of Our Lives by Bill Moyers
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0616-09.htm

Published on Monday, July 19, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "It Can Happen Here"
by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm

E-book - It Can't Happen Here b y Sinclair Lewis
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/l/lewis/sinclair/happen/
Also read: The Iron Heel by Jack London and
"Der Fuhrer" by Konrad Heiden and "The Plague" by Camus
discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2344349#2344364

"Now and Then"- Part 1
by W. David Jenkins and Sara DeHart June 6, 2002
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/dave300019.htm
"Now and Then"- Part 2: The Propaganda Machine
by W. David Jenkins and Sara DeHart June 14, 2002
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/dave300020.htm
"Now and Then"- Part 3
Hitler's Playbook: Bush and the Abuse of Power
by W. David Jenkins III and Sara DeHart July 4, 2002
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/dave300021.htm



JUST A FEW DU THREADS:

The Way Things Really Are -- MUST READING esp. for new DUers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1452106

The Power of Nightmares / BBC exposes the American NeoCon (Tinoire)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2876040&mesg_id=2876040&page=
Hyping Terror For Fun, Profit - And Power by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm
Transcripts: http://www.silt3.com/index.php?id=573



George W Bush is a NAZI Stooge
(thread includes a number of good links and related discussions)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2418676#2418764

What is the difference??? bush-Iraq; Hitler-Poland.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2406622&mesg_id=2406622&page=

Wanna know where today's Fascism came from? Look here 8/29/04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2282969#2283235

Bush,Machiavelli,StraussIF NO EXTERNAL THREAT EXISTS ONE MUST BE INVENTED
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2255230

Fascism, Nazism, & Eugenics supported by Oil Barons of America &
esp. the Rockefeller Foundation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2248507

I'm scared - I've got a mail, sounds real!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1822699#1822720

It's Time for Another Bush/Nazi Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199887
(most links already harvested)

1944: American fascism (re 1944 article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387

Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1730317

How Reagan Got Elected in the first place -- My little tribute
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1773894#1776990 (See Octafish post #33 for links to some books on Amazon)


Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's? (elementaryPenguin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1772363#1772645
See also: Is US like Germany of the '30s? (Kayell)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1777406#1780958

Are we on the road to becoming Nazi's?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1784358#

Second Circuit Judge Tells It Like It Is: Bush Is Illegitimate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1833026
re this news story: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/06/21&ID=Ar00101

Comparing Bush to Hitler hurts our credibility
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1873137#1873330

The Fascism is getting harder to hide. And harder to fight.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=750446

"American fascists" among us
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2026031

Joe Stanton: "Bush's Operation Clean Sweep: World War IV in 2004?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=808293

Fascism?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1948137

Way, Way Past Time To Label BushCo As Nazis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1966911#1967150

I'm crying (Elf sees the warning signs)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1791526#1791609

Is America Becoming Fascist?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2159330

What Would Machiavelli Do? The Big Lie Lives On ...Thom Hartmann
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2276024

Do you understand that a Kerry win is only the beginning of the fight?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2370107#2370221

When Fascism Comes to America
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x74736

Fascism Rant
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2516368#2517430

Bush is *not* Hitler!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1868574

[InvisibleBallots]

2. what a horrid book

What a smear job against all the pro-peace Americans in WWI and WWII. As if those people who didn't want America to get involved in yet another European war were really Nazis. Perhaps instead of smearing the average American as Nazis because they didn't want to go fight and die in Europe we should have concentrated on the people who were arming and funding Hitler right here at home? Perhaps we need to look no further than Woodrow Wilson and his anti-German propaganda in WWI? Perhaps we need to look no further than the imperial British?

The same propaganda used in WWI to get the US to back the British is the same propaganda they are using today to get us to fight the "Islamofacists".

Flame away...

[LiberalEconomist]

6. What is there to flame?

You make some valid points. However, there was a pro-Nazi component in that peace movement. Let me make myself clear here, I am not saying that the entire peace movement during that time was pro-Hitler. Notice also, that Roosevelt did not choose to go to war with Germany even though German U-boats were sinking American ships at the time. It took a declaration of war by Adolf Hitler, after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, to get the United States involved in Europe. We are left to wonder whether the US would have officially engaged the Germans in combat had Hitler not blunder by declaring war on the US.

Sorry for rambling on. After reading what I wrote I realize I don't really have a point. Oh, we are liberals here, which means that if you make solid points--whether we agree with you or not--then we put down the matches and the tank of gasoline.

[nascarblue]

16. The people in power WERE NAZI sympathizers...

He never says anything for you to twist it out of shape by your statement of "Perhaps instead of smearing the average American as Nazis because they didn't want to go fight and die in Europe " It wasn't the "average American" he was talking about. It was the people in power. Like Senator Prescott Bush who was Hitlers bagman at the bank. Like the DOD that were selling him weapons. Like the steel industry that was making millions of him. And on and on.. This went on for 4 years... many in power did not want to get involved because they were making so much money. After all, the Skull and Bones of Yale are nazi worshipers and they've churned out hundreds of politicians, media moguls, and giant corporations.

You can draw big similarities between now and then. Just watch any of the mainstream media news and you'll get an idea of how completely ignorant most of America is..

Read Howard Zinn and Norm Chomsky, they go into this subject in great detail.

[InvisibleBallots]

17. FDR was in power, was he an anti-semite?

" Read Howard Zinn and Norm Chomsky, they go into this subject in great detail."

You think I've never read Zinn and Chomsky? Please - show me some evidence - any evidence - that Lindbergh was an anti-semite.

[nascarblue]

23. I wasn't replying to Lindbergh, I was replying to your quote...

[InvisibleBallots]

25. was FDR an anti-semite?

FDR was in power - not only was he in power, he was one of the most popular Presidents in history. Was he an anti-semite?

In my OP you'll noticed I specifically mentioned the various pro-Nazi groups in America, of which there were plenty. Not only have I never read anything by Lindbergh that suggested he supported the Nazis, I have read direct quotes from him denoucing the attacks against Jews by Nazis in Germany, and saying that no decent human being could support them. Doesn't sound like an anti-semite to me.

I could be wrong - posters here are claiming that he made speeches calling Jews an inferior race and the like. As soon as I see this proof, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

[LostinVA]

31. Yes, FDR was

I'm a HUGE admirer of FDR, but he WAS anti-semitic, and did much to keep Jews fleeing the Holocaust from finding safe harbor in the US.

To quote Ben Shapiro:

"It was Truman who, in April 1943, traveled to Chicago to deliver a speech before a huge rally to urge aid for besieged Jews in Europe and implicitly criticized President Roosevelt for not doing enough. It was Truman who lobbied for change in the Displaced Persons Act to end discrimination against Jews as well as Catholics.

There is also a third type of anti-Semite: the practical anti-Semite. This is the person who does not hate Jews stereotypically but always acts against the interests of Jews. Perhaps this is the most dangerous anti-Semite of all because while an all-around anti-Semite can be labeled as merely anti-Jew, the practically anti-Jew person cannot be labeled as such.

Truman's predecessor, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, was such a man. Though FDR was careful never to belie any personal anti-Semitism, his immigration policy before and during World War II played a crucial part in allowing the Holocaust to reach its unimaginable magnitude. To the larger Jewish community, the idea that FDR's policies were anti-Semitic is anathema. Nevertheless, FDR was no friend to the Jews."

I'm a HUGE admirer of FDR.

[Longhorn]

3. My husband and I are listening to the unabridged version on CD.

We had several trips to make over the holidays and thought it would be a good way to pass the time. It's a good book, though at times, I think Roth gets a little too bogged down in the family details as opposed to what was going on politically. So much of the rage and incredulity this family feels when Lindbergh is elected is exactly how we feel about the current idiot in the White House.

The reading is by Ron Silver, a Republican who complained before the election that he was missing out on jobs because he's a conservative actor in "liberal Hollywood." He's also had a recurring role on The West Wing, so go figure! However, he does an excellent job with this book because he's got a great Jewish/New Jersey accent (or what passes for one to these Texan ears!) so he adds a lot of flavor to the reading.

We've finished six of eleven disks and hope to listen more this weekend on our trip to California for the Rose Bowl. I even got an extra battery for my laptop so we could listen on the plane. :)

[InvisibleBallots]

4. Lindbergh was *smeared* in this book

Lindbergh was not in any way shape nor form an anti-semite.

[Elise]

7. Oh, crappola, that!

A 5 page paper that focuses on Charles A. Lindbergh's anti-Semitic and pro-Nazi views as expressed in his 1941 America First rally speech and the repercussions these views had on the aviator's life. Included is a discussion of Lindbergh's secret aerial combat missions during World War II as well as the eventual return of respect and admiration he was able to achieve in the years following the war. Bibliography lists 4 sources.
Filename: LCLindy.doc

http://search.essaygirl.com/cgi-bin/query?mss=essaygirl&q=charles%20lindbergh%20anti-semitic

[LiberalEconomist]

9. Oops. Ignore my question Elsie just answered me

I drink to you Elsie.

[InvisibleBallots]

13. here is what your link says

"< Click here to purchase this essay >
A 5 page paper that focuses on Charles A. Lindbergh's anti-Semitic and pro-Nazi views as expressed in his 1941 America First rally speech and the repercussions these views had on the aviator's life. Included is a discussion of Lindbergh's secret aerial combat missions during World War II as well as the eventual return of respect and admiration he was able to achieve in the years following the war. Bibliography lists 4 sources.
Filename: LCLindy.doc"

I'm not going to purchase this essay - got a link to a public record?

[LiberalEconomist]

8. Roth included a passage of one of Lindberg's speeches

where he blames the Jews for pushing the US into a war with Germany. Is this quotation out of context? If so how? Is this quotation true or is it fiction? I don't know. So I am asking. That is what liberals do, they inquire and investigate, which could be a pain in the arse.

[InvisibleBallots]

11. I've read that speech

Lindbergh said that three groups of people were pushing America into war with Germany - British, Jews, and the Roosevelt administration. He was 100% correct. Right after Lindbergh's pro-peace speech, he was viciously smeared as an anti-semite by the pro-war faction - this is typical of course, war-mongers love to smear people who dare promote peace.

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/ny/105.asp

Charles A. Lindbergh, the idol of American aviation whose name became synonymous with isolationism on the eve of World War II, in later life regretted that he was perceived as being anti-Semitic, according to his wife. He was appalled when he saw the survivors of a concentration camp in Germany after the war. And as early as 1941, a few weeks before Pearl Harbor, he and his wife discussed and approved the idea of an independent homeland for the Jewish people similar to what would eventually become the state of Israel.

"It was here that he faced for the first time the horrifying remains of the Nazi death factories, about which he wrote in his wartime journals: 'Here was a place where men and life and death had reached the lowest form of degradation. How could any reward in national progress even faintly justify the establishment and operation of such a place?' 'It seemed impossible that men - civilized men - could degenerate to such a level.' "

Mrs. Lindbergh added, "He was accused of being anti-Semetic, but in the 45 years I lived with him I never heard him make a remark against the jews, not a crack or joke, and neither did any of our children."

In the unretouched diaries in the book, the notation for Nov. 24, 1941, covers a private conversation between the Lindberghs about the need for the Jews having "a land of their own." Although pessimistic about the prospect, she quotes him as saying that it "must be worked at." On the subject of anti-Semitism, she adds: "He talks absolutely the way I feel, that it isn't only what happens to the Jews but what happens to the people who Jew-bait. How it degrades a man or a nation. War is clean, but the other is disease."

The diaries disclose that she was deeply disturbed about his speech made on Sept 11, 1941, in Des Moines, where he said that "the three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt Administration." In the same speech, he said that "no person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany."

In the interview, Mrs Lindbergh said she tried to stop him from making the Des Moines speech, and that she toned it down. "I told him he would be attacked, and he was. but his aim was to speak from the point of view of what air damage would do in destroying .Europe and causing deaths. he thought he was dealing with facts, not emotions. He did not realize the explosive power of his remakes, like the" - "penumbra of a bomb."

[LostinVA]

10. He Most Certainly Was

He made several very public speeches about the inferiority of Jews and other "races," was a very strong proponent of Eugenics (ie Nordic races are superior), and a huge admirer of Hitler and Henry Ford. His daughter Reeve has expressed her "revulsion" on first hearing her father's views on people other than white Christians.

I do believe, however, there is strong evidence that he grew away from this beliefs as he grew older, especially after evidence of the Holocaust appeared.

People are allowed to make mistakes and change their beliefs -- god knows I did. But, to say Lindbergh NEVER espoused these beliefs is dead wrong.

[InvisibleBallots]

12. link?

I'd love to read these speeches? Got a link?

[LostinVA]

14. Elise gave a good link already

eom

[InvisibleBallots]

15. no, she did NOT

She gave a link to a 5 page paper - that you must purchase - and the abstract says he was anti-semitic. Where's the proof? I could be wrong, maybe he really did make speeches about the inferiority of Jews. Someone link it, I'll admit I'm wrong.

[LostinVA]

20. Good Grief -- Just Google

It's part of the historical record -- not some made up stuff. This has been known since the 30's, even though the family-vetted Lindbergh bios don't touch on it much. The America First Rally is the most infamous, where he stated Jews were causing the US to head towards war. He visited wartime Germany, gave them advice, made secret aerial flights. He publicly espoused Eugenics (like many other famous Americans). This is HISTORY, not my opinion. I am watching my two-year-old nephew and can't spend 15 minutes copying links.

Even Lindberg himself expressed apologies for his former beliefs. Reeve Lindbergh mentions the family's reactions in her book.

Again, his later actions helped make up for these earlier views, just like Senator Byrd has negated his brief membership in the Klan.

My nephew is screaming and the cat just tore in here and I must go.

[InvisibleBallots]

27. so, you have no proof in other words?

I just quoted the part of the speech that is supposedly anti-semitic, but of course, it isn't. Show me some proof, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

[LostinVA]

30. That speech WAS anti-semitic

Just as it was anti-British and anti-FDR. Being anti-semitic doesn't mean you're looking to start tossing Jews into the gas chamber. And, Lindbergh was NOT pro-peace, he was an isolationist who greatly admired Germany, and proudly wore his Goering-awarded medal even after Jews WERE being imprisoned and killed. The US government considered him so pro-Nazi/Germany, they refused to give him a military commission.

You don't want to admit Lindy was antisemitic. He was. Most of his own family, including his daughter who loved and revered him, did. They all agree, as do I, that he changed those views in later life. He gave his mea culpas, but that doesn't create some kind of Orwellian history revision.

I am finished with this argument. Lindbergh made public anti-semitic statements and espoused Eugenics. Read Reeve Lindbergh's book.

[jonnyblitz]

18. omg . he most certainly WAS!!

:wow:. I thought that was common knowledge, I guess not...

[InvisibleBallots]

19. sure, let's see the proof? Link?

Anything? You can find a billion and a half articles claiming he was an anti-semite - I'm looking for proof. Any links to his speeches claiming Jews were inferior?

"I thought that was common knowledge"

Two years ago it was common knowledge that Saddam Hussein had tons of weapons of mass destruction too. "Common knowledge" doesn't mean jack.

I could be wrong - someone show me some proof and I'll gladly admit it.

[LostinVA]

21. No one said he ever said

Jews were inferior. He made anti-semitic remarks and definitely racist remarks. His belief in Eugenics was a blanket acceptance of this.

Lindbergh was not a promoter of peace per se, but an isolationist. Not the same thing. The John Birch society was very anti-WW II, but I don't think we can call them pacifists. (and, I am not equating Lindy with The Birchers).

Like other posters said, Lindbergh's beliefs -- like Ford's -- have been common knowledge since the 30's and 40's.

Arguing that he wasn't is trying to prove a negative, and I have other ways to goof off on DU while my nephew is watching a dvd.

[LostinVA]

24. Another Good Link

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/lindbergh/sfeature/fallen.html

[InvisibleBallots]

32. great link

Here's some highlights:

"News of Nazi persecution of Jews had been filtering out of Germany for some time, and many people were repulsed by the sight of an American hero wearing a Nazi decoration. Lindbergh, by all appearances, considered the medal to be just another commendation. No different than all the others. Many considered this attitude to be naive, at best. Others saw it as an outright acceptance of Nazi policies. Less than a month after the presenting of the medal, the Nazis orchestrated a brutal assault on Jews that came to be known as Kristallnacht, the night of broken glass. Nazis and their sympathizers smashed the windows of Jewish businesses, burned homes and synagogues, and left scores dead. Between 20,000 and 30,000 Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps. The Lindberghs decided to cancel their plans to move to Germany. "

"The three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt Administration." Of the Jews, he went on to say, "Instead of agitating for war, Jews in this country should be opposing it in every way, for they will be the first to feel its consequences. Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government." The speech was met with outrage from numerous quarters. Lindbergh was denounced as an anti-Semite. His mother-in-law and sister-in-law publicly opposed his views. Civic and corporate organizations cut all ties and affiliations with him. His name was even removed from the water tower in his hometown of Little Falls, Minnesota.

...

This last part can almost certainly be considered anti-semitic. I would ask anyone to read FDR's speeches of the time, when he said nearly the exact same things. So, I guess I was wrong - Lindbergh, like the majority of Americans, and FDR, believed anti-semitic conspiracy theories about Jews owning lots of newspapers, regardless of the truth of those beliefs.

In any case, he was smeared for opposing the war. One of the major issues in WWI and WWII was the DRAFT - wouldn't we be cheering if someone opposed the coming draft? If he had lived a few years earlier under Woodrow Wilson, he would have been locked up for treason for speaking out against the war.

[InvisibleBallots]

29. LostinVA, I am QUOTING you

Which is it?

LostinVA
Thu Dec-30-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. He Most Certainly Was

He made several very public speeches about the inferiority of Jews and other "races," was a very strong proponent of Eugenics (ie Nordic races are superior), and a huge admirer of Hitler and Henry Ford. His daughter Reeve has expressed her "revulsion" on first hearing her father's views on people other than white Christians.

...

"No one said he ever said"
Posted by LostinVA

...Jews were inferior. He made anti-semitic remarks and definitely racist remarks. His belief in Eugenics was a blanket acceptance of this.

...

Which is it LostinVA - you claim that he said Jews were inferior, then you claim that no one ever said he said Jews were inferior. Which is it?

[LostinVA]

33. He Publicly Espoused Eugenics

He believed in the superiority of the Christian Nordic races, and wrote about this also. I posted some links that mention this. Thus, if he public;y espoused Eugenics, he publicly proclaimed the inferiority of Jews and other races, and actually WROTE about this. I provided the links. Did he say in public, "The Jews are inferior to me?" No, he wasn't that stupid, I think. He understood the media very well. He did publicly espouse Eugenics. I posted the links. If you put Lindbergh and Eugenics in Google, lots of stuff shows up.

Now, I am going to a movie. Have fun proving the negative, IB.

[InvisibleBallots]

35. "Have fun proving the negative, IB."

That says it all doesn't it, LostinVA?

[LostinVA]

22. here's the america first speech

http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp

[TNDemo]

5. I bought it for my husband for Christmas but he has not

started it yet. Looking forward to reading it.

[SmokingJacket]

26. Fucking brilliant book.

Roth is one of the very best writers alive. Who else is tackling such important subjects and so intelligently?

"The Human Stain" and "American Pastoral" are even better, I think.

He's not afraid of ambiguity. The peace movement before WW2 for example -- yes, we all love peace, but at what point does minding your own business become evil? There are no easy answers, and he doesn't give them.

We like to think of ourselves as totally immune to what happened in Germany, but if things had been slightly different -- different leaders, for example -- fascism could have taken root here. It still might.

I didn't like the ending of "Plot..." but I can see why he did it that way.

[LostinVA]

28. Was America First a Peace Movement???

I know some people in the movement thought so (example, Gore Vidal), but I think it was more an isolationist movement. And, it became linked to US Nazis, when they gleefully attended rallies and backed the AFC. This actually kinda killed the movement.

[InvisibleBallots]

34. it was an anti-DRAFT movement

Woodrow Wilson was a dictator and did things that make Bush look like a choir boy. In World War I, the army kidnapped poor black people, threw them into the backs of trucks, and sent them off to war. Wilson was incredibly pro-British, anti-Black, pro-imperialist, and one of our worst Presidents ever. While rich people could buy their way out relatively easily, the average American was drafted into WWI.

I don't blame anyone for opposing WWI, and I don't blame any Americans for opposing WWII either. Hindsight is 20/20.

[saltpoint]

36. Hi, LiberalEconomist.

I got a chance to read Roth's book on an Amtrak trip from California to Philadelphia.

A wonderful book. What a master Roth is.

He painted Lindbergh just as the Nazi blond soldier stereotype -- lovely and likeable on one hand, but loathsome and immoral on the other.