Why conservatives want to compel children to say the pledge of allegience

[bluestateguy]

Colorado and Texas now have laws mandating school children to say the Pledge of Allegience before school activities every day. In fact, Texas also requires recitation of the state pledge as well. The laws contain flimsy provisions allowing a student to opt out with the written permission of a parent, but that will be of little consolation to a child who is subjected to threats, intimidation and harassment if he/she lives in a Bush-loving conformist community where school officials will be likely to look the other way at such harassment.

The truth is that these laws have very little to do with patriotism, but are really about raising a generation of children that will be much less likely to question their leaders and will be far more likely to submit to authority figures, especially if "God and Country" are invoked. The mandatory pledge serves the interests of a fascist elite that desperately requires a docile generation of young people that will not dare to question authority and will do what they are told in the name of "patriotism", like the coming military draft, for example.

[lcordero]

1. brainwashing

[beanball]

10. Teach them when they are young

(brainless),brains scrubed clean,is that brainwashing?you are so right on.

[JackSwift]

2. You will not step out of line again!

"How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your MEAT!?"

[WatchWhatISay]

3. You think that is bad?

In Texas the Republicans have passed a law which goes into effect tomorrow mandating that kids say, not only the US pledge but also pledge to the Texas flag, and a one minute period of silence.

My daughter stopped saying it last year. Her teacher then hassled her for not saying it. But now she says hardly anybody says it.

So the lesson learned - let em bring it on. The more stupid rules the try to enforce on their kids, the more they will send them directly to our camp.

[Castilleja]

50. I have told my kids they don't have to do this

either, unless they want to. But you would have thought this requirement was the heaven-sent ultimate fix for school problems the way it was extolled in the local talk radio. :eyes:

[Mel]

4. it's obvious

those same CONservatives don't know that a socialist wrote the pledge of allegience or they would of banned it instead of compelling children to recite it.

[mlawson]

5. Most of us Boomers had to recite it, plus 'pray' in school.

And look how we turned out. We were the ones who protested Vietnam and other injustices.

I remember that after a very short time, saying the Pledge meant absolutely nothing to me. Habit breeds familiarity, then dissociation.

[ButterflyBlood]

6. on another BB once

a Brit asked what exactly was the pledge of allegiance, he had heard references to it all the time but wasn't entirely sure what it was. after being told schoolchildren recited it every day before school he said "an oath to the state every day? that sounds like something out of an Orwell novel."

and you can't deny it does.

[teknomanzer]

43. I never thought of it that way...

and you know what he is totally on point.

[Clete]

7. I had to say the pledge of allegiance in school and I don't

think it's a bad thing. I didn't have to say the "under God" version though, and I object to the new version. But a little citizenship never hurt anyone. People should be loyal to their country. This doesn't mean they have to accept their leaders without question, and what they say and do though.

When they change the Pledge to add "under Bush", then you can be sure that is totalitarianism.

[Trek234]

9. "and to the republic for which it stands"

You pledge allegiance to the CURRENT government as it stands. Essentially you are pledging allegiance to Bush.

I'm in high school in Texas and I don't ever stand for it.

Oddly enough my school does not follow the 60 second part of the new law.

[nemo137]

11. no, you pledge alliegance to the republic, regardless

of the current government. if that administration is screwing over the country, and you're truly loyal to the republic, you go and do everything you damn well can to stop them.

[redeye]

13. The allegiance is to the flag...

...so essentially schools force children to be patriotic. As a proud individualist who spits on patriotism, I object to that.

[nemo137]

15. i'd rather have a pledge to the republic, if i had to have one.

but the arguement that this only enforces loyalty to the current government is brainless.

[OldCurmudgeon]

16. the pledge should not be to the republic

but to the Constitution.

[redeye]

18. Why should there be a pledge to anything?

Why can't people just be allowed to form their own goddamn opinions without official ideologies and state-sanctioned pledges?

[sweetheart]

20. why the constitution?

Liberty and justice for all implies the liberty to not be whipped in to a mandatory pledge.... self contradicting like most american bullshit.

[redeye]

24. Welcome to America, my lad

The land where liberty means slavery to patriotism and where justice is an empty word. Welcoem to the land of the freeps, the home of the slaves.

[redeye]

17. But why have one at all? (n/t)

[nemo137]

21. because one of the necessary functions of a group is

assimilating new members. if it wasn't a pledge it'd be something else.

[redeye]

23. Why?

Why can't the group serve the people and accept it that some people spit at it? Groups should always serve individuals, never vice versa.

[sweetheart]

19. "and to the republic for Witches stand"

It took me many years, but i finally see those witches... circling around the white house on their broomsticks.... "and your little dog too." ;-)

I had the under god version, but was confused for years about those witches... and did not know what "indivisible" meant, but it was close enough to "invisible" that i was pretty sure.

I must say, the phrase "liberty and justice for all" sort of defined my expectations. Without that expectation, there is nothing in american life to support it.

Though certainly it is a brainwashing exercise, the history books and mandatory US history courses are far worse.... as under an appearantly academic presentation, a myriad of lies that really did require un-brainwashing. "lies my teacher told me" should be a high school textbook.

[leesa]

29. That's not citizenship!!! They should be learning what true

Americanism means, which is dissent and revolt if the government is betraying the country. Think about what this is!!! It's a pledge to a flag and a republic, no matter what. This kind of thinking is how we got into this mess.

[redeye]

31. No...

...Americanism is American patriotism - in other words, the willingness to say black is white, to impale oneself on a sword, and to roast one's children and enjoy watching them burn.

[pretzel4gore]

8. read 'Babbitt' by Sinclair Lewis...

tho published in 1922, it was the most convincing look at the american 'businessman'...and his ignorance. An astonishing afterward by the U of Calif's Mark Shorer in 1960 literally stops one dead: "The drift of our commercial culture in the (40) years since Babbitt (was published) suggests that Lewis did little to alter it, perhaps; but he was the first novelist to to tell us explicitly into what stupid, and finally devastating, social damnation we are drifting. Have we landed yet?"
on page 182 Babbitt says to his son "I tell you, boy, there's no stronger bulwark of sound conservatism then the evangelical church..."
Of course, George had only the flimsiest idea of god!

When one reads Babbitt, it is astonishing that THEY KNOW! They've always known that there's something terribly wrong with the US as its evolved....yet they've let it fester until...

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[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

45. "Babbit" is such an amazing book, he was so perceptive

It was really entertaining to read too. I loved his way with dialogue and his descriptions of Americans, conformity and buisness thinking are so funny and accurate.

I know people that are so similar to Babbit. Likeable people that you just wish would crack open their minds a little bit and recognize that there are other points of view.

I couldn't believe it when I got to the part where that political group tells him to join or they will shun him. The guy actually tells him, "He who is not with us is against us."

[Iris]

25. same as authoritarian parents, the Repugs should beware of backlash

The fact is, information and alternative ideas are out there for those who seek it - and most kids at some point do some seeking.

[NicoleM]

26. I think Minnesota does, too

Obedience, conformity, and consumption, that's all they want kids to learn.

I don't have any kids but I've got one on the way. I hope that this law has been repealed by the time s/he's school-age. Otherwise you're gonna see me on the Today show six years from now. :)

[msmcghee]

27. It's not a question of what words are spoken . .

. . it's the idea that the state can force us to say anything. Here, they are forcing our kids to say things which is doubly outrageous.

Freedom of speech means our voices are our own and are not subject to the rule of the state or anyone else. Otherwise we do not live in a free country. Just like freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

I also am old enough that I was required to recite the pledge in school. I turned out to have a mind of my own - but there are millions of sheep and assorted morans in this country who obviously did not turn out that way. So don't assume that it is harmless.

The chimp should not have been anywhere near 50% in a nation of even partially sane citizens. Who is to say that reciting the pledge did not contribute partially to this insanity?

[MassDem4Life]

28. What is the problem

I grew up in public schools having to say the pledge every morning.

Do you know that tradition began with FDR.
He was the first president to require loyalty oaths from people in his administration.

[leesa]

30. Yes, and this is why we have brainless flag-waving

while our country rapes, murders and pillages at will.

[redeye]

32. So? Not everything FDR did was good

The problem is that it's brainwashing as well as promotion of an official ideology.

[buddhamama]

33. educate the children

as to Pledge of Allegience.

my son's third grade class started reciting the Pledge in class.

one of his homework assignments was to discuss with his parents what it meant.

so i gave him the history and discussed that when he takes the Pledge he vows to uphold the ideals and principals that this ocuntry was founded on. teaching our children to about Justice(one example) is probably not what the repubs had in mind.

[msmcghee]

37. That's what you thought you taught him.

What he learned is something else.

He learned that it's OK for people with power (like teachers and parents) to force weaker people to say that they believe what the stronger people want them to believe.

He learned that you can say things that you don't believe just to satisfy others opinion of you (lie and decieve).

He learned that mind control is cool - if you have the power.

Congratulations

[buddhamama]

39. really? could have fooled me.

he was given the option to opt out if he so chose.

you don't know me very well or him and you weren't there.
obnoxious and presumptuous.
sorry but you're wrong.

[redeye]

40. Opt out and be ostracized

Want to see evidence? Easy. 14% of Americans are atheists. Far fewer than 14% of schoolchildren refuse to pledge or remain silent during the under god part. Therefore, some atheists pledge allegiance to a nation under god even though they don't believe in god. Therefore, some people say the pledge not out of sincere belief.

[buddhamama]

44. he is his own person

and is not afraid of being different.

i'm not saying i agree with forcing kids to recite the Pledge, and i do feel the "under God" should be removed. i gave him info and discussed it with him, he has made the decision to recite it.

[redeye]

47. I don't know about his specific situation

I'm speaking generally here, not specifically.

[msmcghee]

49. I admire your pride in your kid's independence.

The reality is that very few adults are "their own person". To expect a kid to understand and deal with those things is a bit unrealistic in my opinion.

[buddhamama]

53. to expect the worst

is pessimistic.

perhaps more adults aren't their own persons because they were never given the chance to be and then decided it was easier not to be. or, maybe they are their own person but, we don't like or appreciate the person they are, so it is a negative. we can go back and forth on this all day but ya' know, i really don't have anything more to say.

[msmcghee]

46. Yes, you may be right.

As soon as I sent that post I thought it was a little over the top. I apologize for the personal nature of the post. No need to say sorry - I was just wrong.

On the other hand, I can't imagine a kid not being terribly conflicted about such a choice (to opt out).

Most kids are very concerned about fitting in and being accepted - above all else. Few would place a poorly understood concept (like freedom of thought and belief) ahead of their need to be accepted. Remember, this whole thinking thing and the idea that they are in control of their own minds and destiny is a very new concept for them.

Instead, the vast majority of kids would feel that it was a small price to pay (if they even thought there was any price to pay at all) for such a tradeoff. Most would easily submit rather than risk the scorn of others.

Just the whole idea of someone forcing my kid to say some specific words - I find competely over the top. I have no problem with tecahing kids about values - such as honor, honesty - and even the values embodied in our constitution. I'm all for that.

But mouthing words of allegience (a political prayer) does not do that. It only teaches conformance to the will of those in power in my opinion.

[buddhamama]

51. all i can say is that,

at home he is given freedom of thought and belief and he carries this into his every day life.

so far, he has grown up in rural Christian areas. He is not afraid to say he doesn't believe in God or that he doesn't eat meat. He wasn't afraid to express his opposition to the War.

His thoughts on God have come from discussion and reading. I have read to him from the Bible- old and new, he has learned of Hindu, Buddhism, Wicca, even Greek and Roman mythology. He chose not to believe. But i made it clear to him that it was his decision to make not mine. He understands and it bothers him the problem with "under God" he like me asks Whose God, what if you have no God.
And he very aware of our History and various forms of discrimination.

I understand the point you are getting at though, and i agree.

[laura888]

34. Texas children must say the Texas state pledge??

I lived there as a kid in the 70s and didn't have to do that. Is this some kind of new way to plant the seed of a possible secession from the other states? Actually, I wouldn't be that surprised...

[redeye]

35. Maybe...

...at least two good things will come out of Texan secession: 34 fewer electoral votes to the GOP, and Bush will not trouble the US and the world anymore.

[laura888]

36. LOL - you're right

this might be the best thing for America!

[redeye]

38. And for the world -

17 million fewer cowboys and cowgirls influencing American foreign policy (there are 20 million Tecans and I'm wiling to give 15% the beenfit fo the doubt ;)).

[teknomanzer]

41. I remember when I had to mindlessly babble the pledge as a kid...

in Kindergarten and first grade. I put my hand over my heart and looked at the flag and said...

"I pledge (at that age I thought pledge was furniture polish) daleegence (I didn't know what allegiance meant) to the flag (could have been any flag really just happened to be the one at the front of the classroom) of the United States of America (The only other country I would have been aware of at the time would have been England where I spent some time as a toddler... I was totally unaware of boundries, borders, nations and countries) and to the Beepublic (I did'nt know what a republic was at the time either) for which it stands, one nation under god (you know the big guy in the sky) invisible (this whole notion of invisibility intrigued me I fantasized about being invisible did god make us invisible?) with liberty and justice (had no idea what the definition of liberty or justice was either) for all.

My point is there was really no point to the exercise what so ever, except perhaps to make some adults somewhere feel good about something, whatever that was. The words contained no meaning for me as a kid. I hadn't even reached the education level where such words would contain any meaning. It was a complete waste of time, and breath.

As an adult I would now demand that the government pledge allegiance to me before I promise my undying loyalty to any institution. Is it not the most noble purpose of governent to serve the people?

[redeye]

42. Yes, it is

Unfortunately, the US has a very patriotic culture, i.e. most Americans believe that they should serve their country. And conservatives accuse us of being statists...

[msmcghee]

48. There was a point . .

You were taught:

. . that it's OK for people with power (like teachers and parents) to force weaker people to say that they believe what the stronger people want them to believe.

you learned that you can say things that you don't believe just to satisfy others opinion of you (lie and decieve).

You learned that mind control is cool - if you have the power.

But because those ideas were not "in the words" you mouthed you didn't realize you were learning this. These are the things that we learn the most thouroughly - the one's that come in not through words - but through the actions that we observe and how they affect us.

[teknomanzer]

52. I must slightly disagree with you...

Maybe other people learned that it was OK for people with power to force them to do and say things.

What I learned is that people with power DO practice mind control, and that it is NOT ok.

And I think that my being here and discussing this with you proves that much. Therefore it was a waste of time and breath. They pushed me to the other side.

[redeye]

54. Personally you survived the brainwashing...

...but others didn't - after all, fewer than the number of atheists refuse to pledge or to say under god, so some atheists pledge allegiance to a nation under god even if they don't believe in it.

[msmcghee]

55. Most of us here escaped.

Ooops - should have been reply to 52.

And most of us are pretty good at skepticism regarding political dogma. But as I said in a previous post - *Bush should not have gotten anywhere near 50% in a sane society. That is due to those who did not escape.

I believe that there's a variety of ways that they induce mind control in school. It's not important that some of us escape. What is important is that vast numbers of US citizens are perfectly willing to be mindless patriots and support the destruction of other people's lives for immoral (pseudo-patriotic) reasons.

Are you saying that because you or Buddhamama's kid was not taken in by it - that it's OK to go ahead and let them have their silly pledge if they want it?

I'm calling bullshit on that (not you). Allowing somone to force me (or my kid) to say some specific words when commanded to do so is a gross and extreme violation of their civil and human rights - and (an attempt) to teach them to be a mindless patriotic killers for Gawd and Country.

Those are the people currently running our government by the way.

PS: Its hard to express something online that one feel's strongly without sounding like I'm attacking you. I do feel strongly about this but please don't take my statements as personal (buddhamomma too).

[redeye]

56. On the contrary

I think that the fact that some atheists say "one nation under god" is an excellent proof that the pledge works as mind control and thus should not be mandated.

[msmcghee]

57. Is there something wrong with the post numbers shifting?

Is that really a reply to #55? Seems to agree with me rather than "On the contrary".

[redeye]

60. It's a reply to you

You asked if I supported the pledge because a few escaped it. I said, "on the contrary, my argument is that the pledge is wrong despite the few who escape it."

[msmcghee]

61. My post is misnumbered.

I meant to reply to #52 not #54. Sorry for the confusion.

[redeye]

63. I see...

Sorry *blush* :9.

[teknomanzer]

58. Oh hell no!

The silly pledge needs to go. My point is that it is pointless to the kids and it has meaning only for the adults leading the bogus ritual of the state. I think it is rather ironic to demand someone pledge allegiance to a symbol that is supposed to represent freedom. But most conservatives do not undestand irony. Those that do are running the show.

on edit: spelling... i think

[msmcghee]

59. I understand now.

We agree on that. But my point is - it is not pointless for the kids. See #48 above.

[teknomanzer]

62. I can see your point...

But I really think that the pledge is more for the adults than it is for the kids. For the kids it was just a routine thing without meaning.

As for learning that people with power can make them do things against their will. Hell, they have to get up and go to school every day. Even the parent exercise control and make them do things they don't want to do. Parents really practice mind control. Has your mom ever laid a guilt trip on you?

And as far as brainwashing goes I think more damage is done in American history courses than anywhere else. Columbus the brave explorer my ass! More like murderer and thief. And oh those pious pilgrims... if the natives knew what was coming they would have killed the lot of them.

School is nothing more than a twelve year indoctrination program. The pledge added to it should not surprise anyone here.