Chinese Workers Riot!

[InvisibleBallots]

First the Ukraine, now the Chinese put us to shame. Come on, America, let's get to it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/31/international/asia/31china.html

WANZHOU, China, Dec. 24 - The encounter, at first, seemed purely pedestrian. A man carrying a bag passed a husband and wife on a sidewalk. The man's bag brushed the woman's pants leg, leaving a trace of mud. Words were exchanged. A scuffle ensued.

Easily forgettable, except that one of the men, Yu Jikui, was a lowly porter. The other, Hu Quanzong, boasted that he was a ranking government official. Mr. Hu beat Mr. Yu using the porter's own carrying stick, then threatened to have him killed.

For Wanzhou, a Yangtze River port city, the script was incendiary. Onlookers spread word that a senior official had abused a helpless porter. By nightfall, tens of thousands of people had swarmed Wanzhou's central square, where they tipped over government vehicles, pummeled policemen and set fire to city hall.

Minor street quarrel provokes mass riot. The Communist Party, obsessed with enforcing social stability, has few worse fears. Yet the Wanzhou uprising, which occurred on Oct. 18, is one of nearly a dozen such incidents in the past three months, many touched off by government corruption, police abuse and the inequality of the riches accruing to the powerful and well connected.

"People can see how corrupt the government is while they barely have enough to eat," said Mr. Yu, reflecting on the uprising that made him an instant proletarian hero - and later forced him into seclusion. "Our society has a short fuse, just waiting for a spark."




Solidarity with my Chinese Sisters and Brothers!

[Sporadicus]

1. Pay Close Attention

neocons & all their apologists.

[rman]

2. interesting. they have accepted the Big Lie for so long,

but won't accept the Big Stick.

brave people, more power to them.

[elehhhhna]

53. Astrology time: EVERYBODY wakes up this year. Can't wait!

Power to the people right on. Glasnost! Solidarity! etc.

[thoughtanarchist]

3. who remembers Tienanmen Square '89?

That took guts considering the way dissent is recieved there...

[rman]

4. and people here argue that "we can't do anything about it"

the Chinese, Venezuelans, Bolivians and many others prove otherwise.

it doesn't even take a violent uprising, it's just a matter of not rolling over when you're being beaten (either literally or figuratively).

[InvisibleBallots]

35. "just a matter of not rolling over when you're being beated"

no kidding

[barb162]

50. and what was the outcome? It wasn't freedom....

[Minstrel Boy]

5. Though I'm no longer a Maoist -

hey, I'm not 14 anymore, either - that corrupt, capitalist tyranny deserves to be set upon by the Gang of Four and the Red Guards.

[InvisibleBallots]

6. But we can, you know we can

[InvisibleBallots]

7. Extreme Shopping

[Al-CIAda]

8. Extreme Protest (not advised)

Passers-by stop to watch as flames envelope a young Buddhist monk, Saigon, October 5th, 1963.

The man sits impassively in the central market square, he has set himself on fire performing a ritual suicide in protest against governmental anti-Buddhist policies. Crowds gathered to protest in Hue after the South Vietnamese government prohibited Buddhists from carrying flags on Buddha's birthday. Government troops opened fire to disperse the dissidents, killing nine people, Diems government blamed the incident on the Vietcong and never admitted responsibility. The Buddhist leadership quickly organized demonstrations that eventually led to seven monks burning themselves to death.

[InvisibleBallots]

40. suicide

suicide is just introverted murder

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. A couple of years ago, I spoke with a woman who had just returned

from living in Tianjin, China for three years.

She told me that local elderly people had held a demonstration, hundreds of them sitting down on a pedestrian island in a major intersection, because some local official had embezzled funds intended to benefit seniors. The police did not intervene.

You may not know that it was citizen activism that eventually stopped the Red Guards. After several years, people began realizing that they shouldn't let a dozen teenagers bully hundreds of people at a time, and in one important incident, factory workers revolted against a team of Red Guards who were trying to take over their plant, killing a couple of the Red Guards. News of this revolt made Mao realize that he had lost a lot of popular support, so he ordered the Red Guards to cool it.

I think the difference here is that people are burned out and hopeless about the efficacy of demonstrations. We had 30,000 marching in Portland before the Iraq War, and people blocking major intersections and even cycling en masse to slow down the freeway after the invasion was launched, and although our Dems all voted against the IWR, too many elected Dems in other states--even blue states such as California and New York-- ignored massive demonstrations and floods of letters, faxes, and e-mails to vote with the Busheviks.

People may be just burned out and disillusioned, and it doesn't help that the national party doesn't seem to appreciate citizen activism.

In China, I think, there is no legislative mechanism to process grievances, so people take to the streets. We have the illusion of responsive legislators, so we're not as likely to riot.

In this particular case, I suspect that there's a lot going on behind the scenes. I wonder if this is one of the many Chinese cities where a few corrupt officials and business owners are rolling in wealth while ordinary people struggle with high unemployment, the loss of the social safety net, and poor living conditions. This sounds very similar to cases in U.S. cities where African-Americans have rioted after a seemingly routine confrontation between the police and a suspect.

[Robbien]

32. Interesting.

Your comment about protests rings true. With so little media coverage they go unnoticed by almost everyone especially the politicians.

I read recently where there protests in China were on the rise this year more than triple last year's protests. China tries hard to keep news about them quiet.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

11. what the hell are you talking about? - China is Capitalist

and there are no communists on DU - nice try though!

"Let's not go overboard."
Posted by frizzo426

Nobody wants to see a poor chap beaten for bumping into someone, but let's keep things in perspective. If we lose China as a communist state that will be a huge blow to the movement. While they aren't as "pure" as we would like them to be, we must keep in mind that they are our brothers and sisters in the struggle against exploitation and religion. Without a strong communist state like China we will be left with Viet Nam and Cuba, and no check against the US.

...

Lol! Clever, almost, but not quite!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. bwaaah hahahaha!

"until they tear down the images of Mao and Lenin we need to remain supportive."

You didn't really graduate from Agent Provocateur School, did you?

[InvisibleBallots]

18. Walmart shoppers love Communist China!

Plastic shit made by slave labor - that's the Red State way!

[Minstrel Boy]

20. "that's the Red State way!"

I hadn't thought of it that way. China really IS a red state!

[InvisibleBallots]

19. Jesus was a Communist? - Acts 2:44-45

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45)

[Runcible Spoon]

45. god you are pathetically transparent...

weren't you just defending Fannie Mae in another thread, guilt tripping me for complaining about my student loans? "from each according to their ability"...you gonna pony up for my loan payments buddy?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

56. You are supposed to have champaigne for New Year's Eve...

Not acid.

However, you are good for a laugh.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

17. Libertarians and Ayn Randroids

The lack of a sense of humor always gives them away :eyes:

[jdj]

59. they are borg

logic is futile.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. I think you're the one overboard.

"If we lose China as a communist state {:eyes:} that will be a huge blow to the movement. {:eyes:} While they aren't as "pure" as we would like them to be {:eyes:}, we must keep in mind that they are our brothers and sisters in the struggle against exploitation and religion. {:eyes:} Without a strong communist state like China {:eyes:} we will be left with Viet Nam and Cuba {:eyes:}, and no check against the US."

Oy. You folks try way too hard.

Why doncha take a Long March off a short pier?

[thoughtanarchist]

21. What does their status as a communist state have to do with it?

What's more important, citizens of a country or the form of govt?

Are you just promoting communism for it's own sake?

Doesn't seem to make any sense at all...

Can you explain this one to me?

[InvisibleBallots]

22. oh, thoughtanarchist...

Think a little bit harder - you'll figure it out.

[thoughtanarchist]

25. yeah... by the time I posted I saw all the other responses...

I don't like to jump to conclusions about freeper-ish posts and I tread lightly without getting to aggressive about it.

My other communication with freeps ( work, etc )is more of a socratic method...ask questions that force brain cells to function.

I know when it works because communication from the other side just stops cold.

:eyes:

[Minstrel Boy]

23. re your "Fred Phelps is a liberal" argument:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2887236#2888126

Would you consider that "a huge blow to the movement," too?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. Oh, I know things aren't always as they seem,

"comrade."

[Forkboy]

33. "Just pointing out that things aren"t always as they seem."

After reading your posts I believe you.

[Nadienne]

27. No, Calling China "Communist"

would be a huge blow to the communist movement. Mass media is pretty good at pointing up and saying it's down, convincing people that what is white is really black, arguing that we must fight a war to ensure the peace. Very Orwellian. And it has been somewhat effective. And either you have unwittingly taken up their banner, or you have done so deliberately. China is about as Communist as European feudalism was.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

30. Not exaclty.

By my reasoning, the media redefines communism by calling China communist, therefore reinforcing that capitalism is good and communism is bad. The media also tries to say that the United States is doing better (economically) than communism because we are capitalist, and if we're not doing well economically, it's because we're too communist (ie, we get taxed too much).

By the way, I'm not a communist, though I do think there is merit to the idea "from each according to ability, to each according to work." And I'm disgusted by the idea that those who own capital (for instance, a factory) get rich while those who do the work barely make a living.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Yeah, yeah, yeah

They pay lip service to communism, but they weren't Communist when I visited in 1990. Any state that dismantles its social safety net and openly invites U.S. corporations to build sweatshops has left Communism behind long ago.

This may come as news to some people, but the opposite of Communism (an economic system) is not democracy (a political concept), but capitalism.

The opposite of democracy is repression.

China is capitalist and repressive.

[Art_from_Ark]

34. Capitalist and repressive

In other words, fascist

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

37. wait - I thought you said they were Communist?

I thought they were commies still worshipping Lenin and Mao? Which is it frizzo?

[thoughtanarchist]

38. Should someone alert a mod and tombstone this poor mindless soul (frizzo)?

...or should we just wait for his head to explode from overexposure to intellect?

:nuke:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

39. that's such an archaic notion of what "the left" is about

Many people know very well that Stalin, Mao and to some extent Lenin are just about as communist as Hitler was a socialist or a democrat. So Hitler came to power largely within a democratic system and he was a member and later leader of the national-socialist party. But what do despots and dictators do? They deceive the people: they lie. So touting labels, waving flags and reading certain books doesn't really mean that much by itself.

If communism is about sharing the wealth and so called communist regimes are in reality about the confiscation of wealth by a small minority, then those regimes aren't really communist at all. Their supposed communism is a lie and in reality it is the same thing as the radical capitalism we have these days in the "free world".

The essence of the left is democracy, and since most people are "workers" of some kind they tend to favor laws that don't put the interests of corporations and the elites over the interests of the people. Yet the opposite is happening in much of the so called free world. Also the nervous system of democracy, the independent press, has been AWOL for several decades now. In that respect the form of capitalism we have is no more democratic then Stalin's communism.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

44. that's because you are not left, nor liberal, frizzo

""The essence of the left is democracy""
Posted by frizzo426

I disagree, the essence of the left is equality. Equality is a rare bedfellow to democracy and often must be imposed.

...

Anyone suggesting "imposing equality" - other than you? You know what? We've heard these Ayn Rand lines a million times before. Let's try something original okay?

[Nadienne]

47. I disagree.

You wrote, "Equality is a rare bedfellow to democracy." That depends on your definition of democracy. If you consider the United States to be a democracy, then your statement is true.

But the United States isn't really a democracy. It's a republic.

A democracy is a political state where every citizen has an equal say in how they are to be governed. Equality and democracy go hand in hand.

Our founding fathers had the attitude that Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what they are going to have for supper. The "three wolves" are common, capital-less people, and the "sheep" is the capital-owning people whose capital would be devoured if everyone had an equal say in government.

And so we are a republic with an electoral college and enough of a semblance to democracy to keep us "wolves" at bay.

[tx_dem41]

49. Well, since our government is a republic...

it's a moot point, isn't it Frizzo?

[rman]

58. I'm not so sure "republic" and "democracy" are mutually excluding

The US may be a republic, but for all i know the form of government of the US as described in the declaration of Independence and the constitution is an implementation of ideas about governance that were conceived at the beginning of the renaissance;
The revolutionary new idea was that "the people" could in fact govern themselves: a government of, for and by the people by means of elected representatives. One-man-one-vote, transparency of government, freedom of information, separation of church and state and all that. That's 'modern' democracy, unlike what the Romans and the Greeks had where only rich men had the right to vote. And it is what the US form government is based on.

The reason why most of the "free world" isn't really democratic is because governments and the mass media are controlled by big capital. A "merger of state and corporate power" is how Mussolini described "corporatism", which he figured was a more accurate term then "fascism".
It's just that currently we're having more of it. It comes and goes as a wave all throughout history, and it's that time again.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

51. I don't know whether or not

there is an actual movement about it.

But the idea does still exist, and does appeal to more than "antiquated university professors and their starry-eye students". And it is an idea that some capitalists feel threatened by. Otherwise those ideas wouldn't be met with such scathing and immediate criticism by those who fear it.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

54. Communism boils down to

"from each according to ability, to each according to need." It seems to me that the big weakness is in who determines who needs what. A communist democracy (where each citizen has an equal say in how they are to be governed) might work: it's biggest weakness is the spread of disinformation. And that's a pretty hard problem to counter.

Marx's intentions were good, and his ideas have merit. They shouldn't be dismissed so easily by people looking for progress, equality, and justice.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

57. What do you suggest?

I'm all ears.

[JanMichael]

60. You're talking to a TINA.

Don't waste your breath.

Maggie Thatcher set them straight and now There Is No Alternative to those that believe the Plutocracy.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JanMichael]

64. What I said does not contradict what you've indicated.

ok?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

67. Which is....

Capitalism?

There are people who don't have jobs, don't have money, can't buy basic necesities, would increase sales if they had the money to buy what they need - thereby creating jobs.

Terribly inefficient, I would say.

I hope you're not suggesting that capitalism is a better alternative to Marx's ideas.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nadienne]

71. What's staring me in the face?

North Korea, China, and the USSR were all dictatorships first and foremost. Whether or not they held to Marx's ideas is up for debate, but I would say at the very least, the dictators in power definately lacked Marx's good intentions. Anything that threatened power in those dictatorships wasn't tolerated. Which kinda resembles the US (or Nazi Germany, or Fascist Italy): any ideas that threaten capitalism are debunked, discredited, or ridiculed.

That being said, there are (at least) two things about capitalism:

Capitalists say that competition gives customers better products and better prices. It's not "better prices" when a bigger percentage of your income goes to necessities like housing and utilities. It's not "better prices" when you go spiraling into debt because your income doesn't quite match your expenses. And since corporations would rather sell you junk for cheap rather than costly quality, you don't get better products, either. Competition also means that if you're willing to work for dirt, you have a better chance of finding a job. What if you have kids to raise? Student loans to pay off? Either settle for less, or good luck finding something that will pay you what you need to make.

Also, capitalism means that if you have capital, you can use it to work for you, instead of rolling up your sleeves and doing the work yourself. (And yet the owners of capital claim to have "earned" their wealth.) At the same time, people who don't own capital spend their lives working and working and working just to make ends meet. In effect, they are getting only some of what they earned, and giving the rest to their employers. Just giving it away. The proof that this is what happens is in huge amounts of personal wealth - for instance, the wealth of the Waltons. If workers were paid the full value of their work, there would be no huge amounts of wealth "owned" by one person and doled out as that person sees fit. And poverty would be diminished, or gone.

---------------------------------------

"There are people who don't have jobs, don't have money, can't buy basic necesities, would increase sales if they had the money to buy what they need - thereby creating jobs.

"And? Is that somehow a condemnation of capitalism?"

You betcha. Since capitalism is an economic system - and apparently it's an "only the cunning and immoral deserve to survive" - its successes and failures need to be considered. The ideal system (at least ideal in my opinion) takes care of everyone without sacrificing diversity and freedom.

[Nadienne]

72. Darn it! I was trying to convert him! (n/t)

[InvisibleBallots]

73. heh

impossible

[KSAtheist]

69. Haha!

Let's not kid ourselves here. China is the poster child for exploitation.

China: the land of sweatshops, repression, and mass infanticide!

[Blue_Tires]

41. good to see that some populations

still don't like injustice

[Jack Rabbit]

61. Workers of all countries unite!!

You have nothing to lose but your chains.

Through off the yoke of those who exploit workers!! Especially when they pretend to be a workers' state.

[lovuian]

66. The Chineese Worker is getting ticked off!!! Whats he got to Lose???

Nothing but the Chineese bureaucrats have a lot!!!

[Undercover Owl]

70. Communism is so outdated.

Communism is so out of style!
Communism is as relevant as a Commodore64.