I can't shake the feeling that shrub and Blair knows something more

[burn the bush]

about this tsunami. I have read that we have a military base on an island in the region. I have heard that we have been doing underwater mining explorations in the region. I also can't help to wonder what the effects of all the bombing that we have done has caused. It seems to me, that several times when we used those huge bombs in afghanistan & Iraq, that there have been earthquakes in other areas. Are we causing them? can anyone set me straight and convince me that we are not causing these "natural" disasters?

[Vincardog]

1. aWoL is NOT GOD

[found object]

230. Certainly acting like one.

As well the oil bastards he surrounds himself with. At war with humanity as well mother earth. Squashing mere mortals while butt fucking the planet they live on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. In order to get a man made tsunami of that size

you would have to do an underground explosion with a nuke that we don't have.

Every time we tested the nukes in Nevada (uindergrond) the strongest earthqukes were in the 4.0 category.

Those huge bombs that we have been droping do not have the energy potencial of even a Hiroshima sized bomb, here I am talking of at least 100 times larger.

[burn the bush]

30. you don't think that the month long pounding we gave afghansitan

could have altered things underground?

[The Magistrate]

38. That, Ma'am, Is Simply Silly

Leaving aside the remoteness of that area from the point where the quake occured, the amount of energy released, and released sporadically in both time and space over a large area, was simply far too small to effect anything geologically. indeed, it would be astonishing to learn that the total explosive force ranged as high as five kilotons, a measure of explosive force equal to the detonation of five thousand tonnes of TNT. Even if let off simuktanbeously in one place, that would barely register on a seismograph, and could not conceivably effect the junction of two tectonic plates.

[maduroftime]

90. Hey Magistrate

Thank you for interjecting some reasonable science into this debate. I really appreciate it and learned alot.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[firebee]

246. Negative.... you people forget...

Our plates are comprised mostly of iron ore and other heavy metallic deposits.

Now... Take two sheets of iron and cut holes throughout the sheet of iron, so the sheet of iron resembles the vains of iron ore found in the crust of the earth.

Take the two sheets of iron, place them together edge to ege and then cover them with a layer of dirt about an inch .

Now... take a air powered BB gun and start shooting Pellets at one of the iron plates covered with dirt.

What will you notice... While the bb's or pellets don't really have enough power to disturb the area of the plate you're shooting bb's at, you'll notice something else.

Look at the edge where the plates come together. The plate getting hit with BB's is vibrating on the end and creating a significant disturbance at the place where it meets the other iron plate. Even though you're not shooting bb's at the edge of the plate or near the fault, the vibration ringing through the iron or the iron ore deposits increases much like a tuner, until it reaches the edge of it's plate or the fault line, which is it's release point.

Our bombs create vibration and while our bombs are definately not powerful enough to create a disturbance of a 9.0 magnitude earth quake. The vibration from the ping on the iron ore deposits and iron ore vains increases the further it gets away from the point of the ping, until it reaches the edge of the plate where it releases the energy.

Just think of what a tuner does when you tap it.

[KSAtheist]

103. No.

The five-year long pounding we gave germany and Japan--especially Japan--didn't do anything.

[burn the bush]

147. do you know that?

I mean really. Not being smart assed here. I don't know. Have you looked to see what the frequency and magnitude of quakes were at that time compared to previous years?

[burn the bush]

149. also the oil testing didnt start til the 60's did they?

[frankly_fedup2]

152. Message deleted by poster . . .

just disregard whatever any of you read that I had posted.

This conversation is obviously over my head.

:dunce:

[firebee]

33. You people just don't get it.

Earthquakes can't be caused by any bomb we have, but the constant bombing on a tectonic plate can cause the plates to vibrate slightly, which lends to the instability of the faults between that tectonic plate and other tectonic plates around it. While the energy release of our bombs aren't great enough to cause a 9.0 earthquake, our consistent bombing of a plate may create just enough vibration of the plate to release a little bit of the foundation on the edge of the plate. When the little bits on the edges of the plate kick loose, the foundation holding the plates together becomes just weak enough to scrape off on each other, which creates the big 9.0 earthquake.

We bomb Afghanistan and Iran has a huge earthquake.
We bomb Iraq and this earthquake happens.

[burn the bush]

37. plus the underwater testing that they are doing looking for oil

i think they use some sort of forced air pressure blast (whatever that means) I don't pretend to understand the consequinces (sp) of such tests, but by now knowing, it leaves it open to speculation from me.

[The Magistrate]

41. The Forces Involved, Sir

Are quite incapable of producing the effect you imagine.

What is occuring here, in the largest measure, is a common illusion of causation based on simple sequence. Every day there are earthquake; on some days there are explosions of varying power; therefore someone may notice an earthquake occured some period after an explosion and go," Ah-hah!" This is particularly likely to occur of the person does not much approve of the explosions, and is not particularly picky about choosing arguments against what is disapproved of.

[frankly_fedup2]

160. Question that is none of my business.

Are you a magistrate in real life, and yes, you can tell me it's nunya.

The reason I ask is because about four years ago my son got into some trouble, and I had to deal with two different magistrates about the exact same thing.

[Fiona]

3. Do you have any idea how much energy

is involved in a 9.0 earthquake? We did not set it off.

[Eloriel]

88. You have absolutely no way of knowing

what contribution mankind's activities may have made to this. None.

[Fiona]

89. Yes I do

it's called physics.

[Eloriel]

95. No, sorry, your understanding of physics is far too narrow

For one thing, others have already mentioned that much smaller things can cause chain events, etc.

Second, you cannot know what highly classified activities are or are not going on. Are you, for example, an expert on HAARP? That's just one thing, there are many others that COULD conceivably have contributed, including the sonar (or whtever) testing for oil, etc. which is ongoing. But even that doesn't scratch the surface -- and this is one of those cases where, to paraphrase Rummy a bit, we don't know what we don't know, we only know we don't know.

YOU have no idea, and can't.

Do I personally believe this earthquake and resulting tsunami were man-made or that man's activities contributed? Probably not, but there is literally no way to know for sure, despite your fantasies to the contrary.

[Fiona]

96. *MY* fantasies?

You're funny.

[eyepaddle]

99. I can at least speak directly to some of that

As far as the oil testing part, I gather that they were doing a survey--as opposed to specifically evaluating a given geological structure. A survey involves a boat cruising in a grid pattern doing reflection seismology "shots" as it goes. The shot is essentially a blast of compressed air which makes a large bubble, which then collapses. The noise of the intial release travels through the water and on into the rock and sediment at the ocean bottom, every time the sound (seismic) waves cross a boundary, such as a different rock unit or the ocean bottom itself, a portion of the energy is reflected. These reflections are detected by the survey vessel and transformed or "migrated" into a seismic map.

I have friends who have done this for a job--heck, I'd be willing bet some Louisiana DU'ers know somebody who does this for a living. I myself only worked working drill platforms. Where pretty much the same thing happens, but only in one spot, not over a grid. The stuff I saw first hand was a little anti-climactic, I slept through most of the "shots." While I'm pretty sure marine seismics and other somars can affect marine life it is more due to the sensitivty of the organisms and not so much a measure of the power of these pulses.

However, assigning cause for any one earthquake is extremely difficult, but people are looking in to such things as one earthquake setting off others, for example.

For a broad overview:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqinthenews/2004/usslav/neic_slav_faq.html


Especially relevant are the sections about relations between earthquakes. This tells me that it is being looked at in depth--and this would hold true for quakes triggered by nuclear bombs or natural events--after all, a seismic wave is a seismic wave, no matter its source. And there are far too many independent seismometers out there for any group to cover this up. If somebody pulled something it would've been spotted.

[jdj]

105. well, damned if that doesn't explain all the mass strandings.

I'm with Eloriel.

People protest too much.

I don't know what the evil in charge are or are not capable of, all I know is that their depravity and lack of concern for others of all species cannot be underestimated.

[eyepaddle]

109. Finally!

God, I thought I might have to call somebody a bad name to get anybody to notice my posts!

As to explaining ALL the strandings, that I don't know, biology isn't really my area. However it seems to me that I have heard a link suggested by some credible sources.

Oh yeah, for the record, I totally hated the oilfield, the oil industry, fuck everything about that. I shudder just to remember it. :scared:

[jdj]

115. don't worry, I feel the same way.

usually the only responses I get are negative, which is okay because I enjoy arguing to a certain extent, but we all need a little love, too. :hi:

any way, I just meant the ones in the last coupla months.

In particular the one around australia where 170 animals of varying species stranded together.

[eyepaddle]

124. As I've said in other posts

Science is just fun! The one thing we know for sure is that no matter what what happened we ain't getting to the bottom of it on this message board. However if people use this as a starting point and start caring about science we all be a lot better off.

(I just can't miss a chance to throw out a plug!)

Have a good night folks
I gotta go
:party:

[frankly_fedup2]

156. My ex-mother-in-law use to believe that when we sent the . . .

spaceships out of the atmosphere of the Earth, that by us doing this was causing all the strange weather conditions as well as disasters like this. I would just shake my head and say, "We'll never know."

She was a sweet little old lady who has passed now; however, I find her theory hard to follow myself.

[Guy_Montag]

179. HAARP & seismic oil exploration expert here

Well probably the closest thing going. I used to work on projects similar to HAARP (isonsphere sounder, riometers & riometer arrays, VLF receivers amongst other instruments).

I now work on seismic exploration instruments (& ocean bottom electric fiield receivers too).

My first job was with an enviromental research organisation (the one that discovered the hole in the Ozone layer), my current job is with an University. Hardly the sort of places one would find secret agents working out how to take over the world.

So starting with HAARP read the HAARP website - "does what it says on the tin". There is nothing sinister, just extremely boring, dull research (I know some of the researchers) that may eventually lead to better comunications systems.

Seismics: the amount of energy released by an airgun array is pretty tiny compared to even modest explosives. The physics is pretty well understood or it wouldn't be much good for finding oil.

Any questions?

[satori]

236. Top Secret Russian Project-Underground Nuke tests to trigger earthquakes?

The Coastal Post - December, 1996
Not So Surprising Nuke-Earthquake News
Earthquakes Made To Order
BY Karen Nakamura

http://coastalpost.com/96/12/2.htm

On the morning of October 10, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation aired this piece. I obtained a copy of it from the ever-vigilant Dr. Gary Whiteford.

"It was code-named Project Mercury and Project Vulcan, and involved almost two dozen major scientific and manufacturing centers.

"The theory was that underground nuclear explosions could trigger earthquakes far from the site of the original blast. Researchers speculated the destructive force released would be many times greater than the nuclear blast, that it could be directed toward any point on earth and that there was no way to guard against it.

"Western experts are said to be astonished that such a weapons program was ever attempted. Many believe the notion of triggering and controlling earthquakes is pure science fiction."

[Acryliccalico]

4. You have no argument from me

[ProdigalJunkMail]

5. please stop suggesting that people had anything to do

with the earthquake and resultant tsunamis. You are doing nothing more than showing your utter ignorance of the energies or the physics involved to cause an earthquake of this magnitude...and maybe giving the other likewise ignorant among us to speak up and goad you on...

theProdigal

THINK : were earthquakes happening before MOABs and nukes and global climate change??? hell, were they happening before humans? ask your friendly neighborhood geologist for an answer...

[noamnety]

14. some flawed logic in your post

Yes, earthquakes can happen naturally, nobody is debating that. That doesn't rule out the ability of humans to cause earthquakes.

Earthquakes can be manmade; we know they've occurred in Colorado in incidents related to (but not necessarily caused by) both Shell and Chevron, because of water injections. We also know there have been man-made quakes because of geothermal plants in California.

We know oil and gas companies were doing massive sound bombing in the area near Tasmania over a known fault line for the month leading up to the tsunami. And we know an 8.1 earthquake occured in the same area as the sound bombing 2 days before the larger earthquake; this smaller quake is widely believed to have been responsible for the larger one.

It's not unreasonable to ask the question, did the seismic testing over the fault contribute to the initial quake.

In the Colorado instances, someone asked the question, the government did some experiments, found out that yes, in fact, human activity WAS causing the quakes, and they terminated those activities as a result.

It would be foolish not to ask the question.

[The Magistrate]

22. Do Give It A Rest, Sir

In cited instances of quakes caused definitely by human activity, the intensity level is generally around level four, or lower. A level nine quake releases on some twenty-eight million times the energy released by a level four quake.

The attempt to tie the thing to sonic imaging is merely risible, as the energies involved are barely measureable in relation to an event such as this.

There are generally "pre-shocks" as well as "after-shocks' attending major earthquakes, and so it is quite mistaken to speak of the earlier, and very powerful, event "causing" the later one of greater power; it was simply partb of the whole process of releasing accumulated strains at the contact of the tectonic plates.

[frankly_fedup2]

158. Okay but why are there green laser beams being aimed at . . .

airplanes in seven different states within the last couple of weeks? Is it man, is it alien, or is it God?

(LOL). Just kidding and trying to keep things light.

But you know how if you disagree with anything the Government says then you are considered a wacko conspiracy theorist.

[burn the bush]

164. where do you think Cheney has disapeared to? It's hard work getting

those lasers to follow the airplanes.

[frankly_fedup2]

245. That's a good one. Of course, he will be making an appearance

when the senate and congress meet and go over the electorial votes. I'm going to watch on CSPAN to see if the man is capable of standing any longer than two minutes.

I thought he was in his 70's; however, he is barely over 60 . . .isn't he????

[burn the bush]

34. thank you. that other guy really ticked me off suggesting I'm an idiot

for asking a question. I shouldn't have gotten crappy with him but some of these people on here spend much more time trying to start crap then they do anything else. He could have just said his explanation without starting crap. We are getting enough crap from the bushco, the psuedo-christians, and the media. I don't need it here.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

108. never suggested you were an idiot...

just ignorant of the details of which you are trying to speak. I am sorry that you don't know the difference. I didn't start crap...you just do not understand the word ignorant, I suppose. I am frustrated with people like you, coming here, and suggesting something so off the wall as to make even the tin-foilers wince. Your lack of understanding on this topic, and then your willingness to post hysterical hypotheticals, really give those who wish to laugh at the membership of DU the ammunition they need...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

140. jeese you are utterly ignorant but i didn't mean that in a negative way

post number five Utterly ignorant. Now i just don't understand ignorant. I wonder if some people understand eat shit? Of course I wouldn't mean that in a negative way or to start crap on the board.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

148. read the definition

then come and complain...

theProdigal

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

154. never used the words ass wipe or dumb fuck

you are the only one here throwing those around...your post is an insult to those who died...you belittle their fate by the suggestion that a MAN or MEN caused it...

theProdigal

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

167. your wondering is an implication...back handed, at that

and if you still can't understand that the word ignorant is not an insult then I cannot help you. And yes, your post is an insult to those who died and those who are now living through the aftermath...suggesting that Bush/Blair could somehow be responsible or somehow 'know more about it that they won't share' is a slap to all those who had their lives torn apart by one of the most powerful forces of nature...instead of a couple of little men...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

173. i really think that you don't get it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

175. you obviously don't...

but that's ok...keep on believing! :crazy:

theProdigal

[kc.ink]

137. I agree, this is totally possible and if I may go out on a limb, PROBABLE.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fiona]

50. Burn the Bush...

"fuck you" is not a compelling argument.

[burn the bush]

75. what am i suppose to be arguing? that some of you do nothing but look for

trouble to start shit. I need no argument for that.

[Fiona]

81. I don't know what you're supposed to be arguing

if "fuck you" is the basis of your argument.

[burn the bush]

86. refer back to previous message

[Fiona]

93. which one?

the vulgar personal attack that was deleted? Or is it one of the other baseless attacks you've made?

I'm guessing you weren't captain of the debate team.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

161. you asked a question that shows your lack of understanding

and then get pissed and start dropping the f-bomb all over creation when people shoot down your little postulate. You continually break the rules of this board by calling people names up to and including freepers.

I am sorry the mental process that kicked off your question was so badly misunderstanding of the concept of plate tectonics...I am sorry you don't like it when someone calls you out for that misunderstanding...I am sorry you cannot understand what the difference is between stupidity and ignorance of fact...you come here and post an assinine theory, it will likely get shot down from about ten different directions...telling people to 'go bitch elsewhere' is pretty amazing considering...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

171. QUESTIONS would seem to imply a lack of understanding

which i realized that i did not understand. (hence the question) and maybe you should realize your lack of it. (understanding your lack of knowledge)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

174. suffice it to say...

if you had to ask YOUR question then you DO have less knowledge on the subject than I do...and many others here that you also cannot seem to handle facts from. Sorry you don't like that your musings were shot down so vehemently...they deserved it. Your question was not just a question...it was an attempt to suggest that Bush/Blair had something to do with it. If you had just asked, "Could people have been responsible for the earthquake and tsunami?" then I would have been more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt...alas, that is not the case...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

181. well, though it is hard to tell, bush and blair are people

and thats how you should have answered the question. Instead you looked to stir up a load of shit. Feel better now?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

183. nah...you just keep getting more and more twisted

you mentioned SPECIFIC PERSONS...not people (as in the general term)...you chose to stir the shit with your carefully phrased little question...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

186. well if man were causing this type of thing, then the US would be knee

deep in it. Bush and Blair have been almost oddly quiet. So if I though people were involved, it would go to the top, to the govt dont cha think. Much as i hate it bush is the govt. so i said bush and blair. If only i had known that all I had to do was say people instead and low and behold non of this bullcrap would be going on. But as it stands I am getting sick of all the people like yourself that feel a need to jump in on every argument and try to slam people. Just stirring up shit like i said before. Good for nothing else but stirring the pot. Every single day. Day after day.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

188. thank you for positng your motive in the clear

and I didn't jump into an argument...I pointed out that your original post was ignorant of physics and by extension plate tectonics...you started the argument and the name calling...

theProdigal

[jdj]

107. well, it always amazes me the speed at which people here

pop out of nowhere to pour calumney on certain arguments...

let's see, there's PETA, chem trails, and now this one.

Very few liberals that I know have such closed minds as to refuse to consider every possibility, even the most remote. So any true liberal would say, here are some peer-reviewed writings on this subject and here are the links, no one really knows, and there is some debate, but this is more information.

If someone jumps in and calls you stupid or says that's preposterous, I personally just assume they are a troll, a freep, or a viral marketeer.

And OF COURSE mankind contributed to the tragedy, because we put a man on the fucking moon, yet couldn't get a system to warn these folks. At least we now know we are the only country with officials as incompetent as Condi.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

110. well, I am not a troll...a freeper...or a viral marketeer

but I know bullshit when I see it. Trying to lay blame for this tragedy at the feet of Bush/Blair is patently bullshit. As I said, ask your friendly neighborhood geologist before coming here and posting drivel about Bush/Blair having something to do with a magnitude 9 earthquake. It is so far beyond absurd as to border on stupidity. But people here take up the reigns and run with it because it allows the fixing of blame on someone that they despise and it makes this community look downright foolish. Like it or not, the physics and energies envolved are beyond ANYONE'S capabilty...man, woman, child, government...

theProdigal

[jdj]

114. Honey, I haven't posted any of the aforementioned things.

nor have I mentioned Bush or Blair.

There's no reason to attack someone. I'm pretty much offended by denial of anything, since I learned on public tv that scientists disagree to varying degrees on just about every theory one of the comes up with. But since this is the internet, people can hold forth like they ARE scientists and sling sanctimonius verbal diarrheas all over everyone just for having a thought.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

116. you used the words...

If someone jumps in and calls you stupid or says that's preposterous, I personally just assume they are a troll, a freep, or a viral marketeer

and I am not attacking the person...I am attacking the idea...please learn the difference. To be offended by the denial of anything is to be subject to the whims of everything...you will find yourself battered about by those with more tinfoil than you. And I am not your honey...honey.

theProdigal

[jdj]

117. well, aren't you kind

why is it that everyone that denies an human involvemnt in any natural phenomenon posts in such a harsh way? Does being all scientific make you lose your charm?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

120. i am fed up with people making stupid accusations

about one of the greatest human tragedies of our time. The loss of life is mindboggling. And yet, people come here, and say the most idiotic things like, "Bush/Blair did it or knows why it happened" (as the original poster suggests), and it makes me sick. It is hysteria of the worst order and attempts to make manmade the disaster that was all nature...it is appalling...

When people stop pulling this sort of stuff out of their asses without a single shred of understanding of the issues involved, and in the process try to BLAME SOMEONE, then I will stop being pissed.

theProdigal

OnEdit : and who is the one throwing around terms like freep and troll??? speaking of kindness...

[jdj]

123. I'm not throwing them around, that is what I do mentally, kind

of an "aha" moment, because it helps me here.


I really don't think DU is significant to the situation there, really, speculation won't effect these folks.

I am far more embarrassed by the way people took an offhand comment made by a UN official and distorted it in such away to make this tragedy about the size of America's penis. However, that has worked out in a good way which I am sure Eggelund knows by now. That happened on a national scale, and I watched the conference live, in fact I posted in GD when it came on, so I heard him say "I don't know why WE are so stingy", including his own country in his statement, which referred to general UN aid programs for 2004. That is an example of something to get worked up about, because we are embarrassing ourselves in front of the world, and as usual, we don't even get that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

127. i agree with the assessment of our actions since

the comments of the UN officials, but DU does have a reputation that it should try to uphold...and this sort of 'reasoning' does not help. It isn't about the people here...it is the people that USE the information here...and they aren't all democrats...

theProdigal

[jdj]

129. I would concede on that point

but then there's the Lounge.

[bain_sidhe]

163. my, my, somebody's feeling pissy today... ME!

Howdy, Prodigal. Haven't seen you a while, but every time I do, I remember how you came to be with us, and smile at the memories of alljunkmail... your great-grandfather would, I think, smile as well to see that you've inherited a bit of his (notso)common sense, and are carrying on his tradition of pointing out when folks don't seem to be using it.

Sorry for interruping the flames - it just gave me a chuckle to see you being accused of being a "troll" or a "freeper" and I had to comment. I was going to suggest people read the thread that started your journey here (that was the "pissy" part) but I decided against it. I doubt it would change any minds anyway.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled BBQ pit.

**edited for improper punctuation! (damn those ellipses!)**

[ProdigalJunkMail]

166. just pissy because this place that I have come to care about

much like my great grandfather did, is being overrun by people who would try to convince me that George Bush had something to do with the tsunami that killed all of those people and has created one of the largest humanitarian emergencies in history. Accuse him of bombing civilians indescriminately...accuse him of destroying the economy...accuse him of being a chimp...whatever...but to suggest that he had something to do with this tragedy is beyond the pale...

MMMMMmmmmmmm BBQ!!! :hi:

theProdigal

PS : the funny thing is...I would NEVER post on FreepRepublic...i can't even READ most of that drivel

[burn the bush]

170. no one is trying to convince you of anything. I asked a question

i did not state it as fact and could not care too much less how you feel about it. And I really don't think that the place is being "overrun" with tsunami conspiracy theorist. And I guess mentioning your grand father coming here is somehow suppose to vouch for you?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

172. you know nothing about that which you speak

so I would suggest that you just drop the issue of my great grandfather.

And you know, you're right. We are not overrun with tsunami conspiracy theorists and you are welcome to your tinfoil hat. You are the one who got all bent out of shape when someone pointed out the fact that your little theory is absurd...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

178. what don't you understand?

I don't have a theory. I never suggested I was knowledgable about the question. Thats why i asked it. The thing is that YOU think that YOU know the answer without a doubt and as has been suggested by the open minded posters on here, YOU can't know the answer just because you understand how plates move. You just want to force everyone to see it your way. Myself, I am open to either way and have been wondering about the occurance of our heaviest bombings being almost immediately followed by a quake since this war started. Actually since the first gulf war. Now because of this one, I asked something i had been wondering about and you seem to think that you are degreed in the sciences. And wtf about your granddaddy? You brought him up. I can mention him/.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

180. no, someone else brought him up and i was responding to them

and you know not if I am degreed in the sciences or not...and I know not if you are...but I know your suggestion that man had something to do with this is absurd...you can claim that you just had a question...but if it were just a question it would have been put a little differently than to start out with "Bush/Blair know something"...denial...it's not just a river in Egypt anymore!

theProdigal

[bain_sidhe]

182. No, *I* brought up Prodigal's great grandfather

and, again, I urge you to read the thread linked in the message below before replying.

Of course, it's up to you.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burn the bush]

184. dont care about William or who loved him. He mentioned him in

such a way as a child would. Or I guess you did. Like it meant he was aok coz granddaddy was. So i will and can mention him. If that gets me kicked off then there are plenty of other sites to donate and follow the story with.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

185. nice...you are just a real pleasure

someone pops in and starts a little side-discussion about my family and the way by which I came to this site and you want to jump in and act like it is all sinister...brilliant...he has nothing to do with this conversation between you and I and you have nothing to do with this conversation between bain_sidhe and me...

theProdigal

OnEdit : for worse than usual grammar

[burn the bush]

190. this is a message board. private chats are available

but you are right, your grandfather has nothing to do with this and shouldn't have been used to try to gain status or whatever that was.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

191. how was this used to gain status?

I know you haven't been here long and people pop onto threads all the time to say hi...even contentious ones like this...but how does this lend to my credibility? How could it possibly? My great grandfather was not a seismologist...he was a lawyer and a teacher of history.

Get your head out of your ass and you will be able to see that bain_sidhe just popped by to say hello...it had NOTHING to do with you or your silly idea...

Narcissism run rampant to believe this has ANYTHING to do with you or your post...

theProdigal

[bain_sidhe]

192. Awww, screw it

some people aren't worth the blood pressure medication it takes to deal with them. Or as Emo Phillips said, some days it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

**gack, typos again. My fingers have a mind of their own - it's just not a very GOOD mind.**

[ProdigalJunkMail]

194. I guess you and I are in cahoots to make me look better

thanks for popping in and saying HI and lending so much to my credibility on this thread... :eyes: I suppose I should hit the hay too...some people and some thoughts are not worth the effort...and I am beginning to think I have wasted a good amount of sleep on this...

Have a good eve and a happy new year!
theProdigal

[bain_sidhe]

197. Yep, it's a plot alright

And, I confess, I was hoping people might take note that you're not being - and have never been - unreasonable. But, alas, I seem to have made the flames leap higher. Sorry, didn't mean to sully the memories of your great grandfather by dragging him into a flame war. I'm gonna shut up, sign off, and read a book.

And here's wishing you a happy and prosperous New Year back atcha... (had to get those damn ellipses in ;) )

:toast:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

198. thanks!

will be seeing you around...and the flames just warm the cockles of my heart :-)

theProdigal

[bain_sidhe]

176. I hear ya!

Not that I haven't had my own suspicions that bu**sh** is capable of some truly dastardly deeds - and I keep my own tinfoil hat handy - but using this human tragedy as fodder for these kinds of speculations is just... well, beyond the pale, IMHO.

I'd join you in the BBQ pit, but I'm not in the mood for rampant paranoia today.

P.S., I know what you mean about FreeRepublic - back when the Patriot Act passed, I went over there to try and find some of the more libertarian leaning types and establish some common ground - I found one or two to talk to, but really it wasn't worth the time (not to mention the risk of brain damage) to sort through the drivel.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

35. There Is No Known Difference, Ma'am

Every day there are thousands of low-intensity quakes. Every year there are about a thousand capable of causing damage, and of these, about a hundred are capabale of causing serious damage, in one or two instances, of catastrophic damage. In the great preponderance of these, since the surace of the globe is largely un-inhabited, do no damage to humans, and many of those that do, since they do so in remote areas, go largely unreported.

[xultar]

6. The biggest scandal in this area is whether or not we warned Diego Garcia

and not Sri Lanka.

[Tinoire]

165. That's apparently the case / Criminal Negligence on a Global Scale

Ramsey Clark from International ANSWER denounced the US government for this two days ago. Not good to have a former US Attorney General nominated by JFK on your ass.

U.S. government failed to warn region

Although the local governments had no real warning, the U.S. government did, and it failed to pass along the information. Within minutes of the massive 9.0 magnitude earthquake off the coast of Indonesia, U.S. scientists working with National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) suspected that a deadly wave was spreading through the Indian Ocean. They did not call anyone in the governments in the area. Jeff LaDouce, an official in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, said that they e-mailed Indonesian officials, but said that he wasn’t aware what happened after they sent the e-mails.

In this day of instant communications, controlled in a large part by the U.S., it is possible to communicate within minutes to every part of the globe. It is beyond belief that the officials at the NOAA could not find any method to directly and immediately contact civilian authorities in the area. Their decision not to do so may have cost thousands of lives.

Even a few minutes warning would have given the inhabitants a chance to seek higher ground. The NOAA had several hours notice before the first waves hit shore. Tim Walsh, geologic-hazards program manager for the Washington State Department of Natural Resources, said, "Fifty feet of elevation would be enough to escape the worst of the waves. In most places, 25 feet would be sufficient. If you go uphill or inland, the effect of the tsunami will be diminished." But the inhabitants of the area weren't given the warning - as a result, television and radio alerts were not issued in Thailand until nearly an hour after the waves had hit and thousands were already dead.

The failure to make any real effort to warn the people of the region, knowing that tens of thousands of lives were at stake, is part of a pattern of imperial contempt and racism that has become the cornerstone of U.S. policies worldwide.

The NOAA immediately warned the U.S. Naval Station at Diego Garcia, which suffered very little damage from the tsunami. It is telling that the NOAA was able to get the warning to the US Navy base in the area, but wouldn't pick up the phone and call the civil authorities in the region to warn them. They made sure that a US military base was notified and did almost nothing to issue a warning to the civilian inhabitants who were in the direct path of the wave--a warning that might have saved thousands of lives. This is criminal negligence.

http://www.iacenter.org/tsunami.htm

Our guys plead that they didn't know how to reach people in Sri Lanka and that they sent an e-mail. Never bothered to check to see if it had been recieved, nothing... :shrug:

Diego Garcia was warned in time.

I had a better link and posted it but without my star I can't search for it... Here's something though:

As confirmed by several reports, US scientists in Hawaii, had advanced knowledge regarding an impending catastrophe, but failed to contact their Asian counterparts.

Charles McCreery of the Pacific Warning Center in Hawaii confirmed that his team tried desperately to get in touch with his counterparts in Asia. According to McCreery, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's center in Honolulu, the team did its utmost to contact the countries. (The NOAA NOAA Hawaii Report ).

His team contacted the US State Department, which apparently contacted the Asian governments. The Indian government confirms that no such warning was received. (The Hindu, 27 Dec 2004)

Nine (9.0) on the Richter scale: The Director of the Hawaii Warning Center stated that "they did not know" that the earthquake would generate a deadly tidal wave until it had hit Sri Lanka, more than one and a half hours later, at 2.30 GMT. (see Timeline below)

"Not until the deadly wave hit Sri Lanka and the scientists in Honolulu saw news reports of the damage there did they recognize what was happening... 'Then we knew there was something moving across the Indian Ocean,'said Charles McCreery. (quoted in the NYT, 28 Dec 2004 ).

This statement is at odds with the Timeline of the tidal wave disaster. Thailand was hit almost an hour before Sri Lanka and the news reports were already out. Surely, these reports out of Thailand were known to the scientists in Hawaii, not to mention the office of Sec. Colin Powell, well before the tidal wave reached Sri Lanka.

"We wanted to try to do something, but without a plan in place then, it was not an effective way to issue a warning, or to have it acted upon,'' Dr. McCreery said. ''There would have still been some time -- not a lot of time, but some time -- if there was something that could be done in Madagascar, or on the coast of Africa."

The above statement is also inconsistent.

It is worth noting that the US Navy was fully aware of the deadly tidal wave, because the Navy was on the Pacific Warning Center's list of contacts. Moreover, America's strategic Naval base on the island of Diego Garcia had also been notified. Although directly in the path of the tidal wave (see animated chart below), the Diego Garcia military base reported "no damage".

"One of the few places in the Indian Ocean that got the message of the quake was Diego Garcia, a speck of an island with a United States Navy base, because the Pacific warning center's contact list includes the Navy. Finding the appropriate people in Sri Lanka or India was harder." (NYT, 28 Dec 2004, emphasis added)

(snip)

These statement on the surface are inconsistent, since several Indian Ocean Asian countries are in fact members of the Tsunami Warning System.

There are 26 member countries of the International Coordination Group for the Tsunami Warning System, including Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia. All these countries would normally be in the address book of the PTWC, which works in close coordination with its sister organization the ICGTWS, which has its offices in Honolulu at the headquarters of the National Weather Service Pacific Region Headquarters in downtown Honolulu.

(snip)

Australia and Indonesia were notified. The US Congress is to investigate why the US government did not notify all the Indian Ocean nations in the affected area: "Only two countries in the affected region, Indonesia and Australia, received the warning"

(snip)

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO412C.html

[Guy_Montag]

189. Major cock up,

but how the hell does a skeleton staff of (probably junior) scientists (it was boxing day) get in touch with anyone who can make a difference in a dozen different countries in time when there are no procedures for it in place. There obviously were for Deigo Garcia, but not for the other countries.

[Tinoire]

249. Call the TV stations? Google for a govt number? Call the embassy?

There's really no excuse. Those centers are supposedly working with those countries. I find their explanation extremely lame.

Even if they were too daft to find any numbers all they had to do was call the proper sister agency requesting the info be passed on. Instead they allegedly sent an e-mail- one that Sri Lanka never received. It's shameful... Major cock up as you call it but inexcusable.

[Guy_Montag]

264. & tell them what?

In what langauge?

You would be phoning around 6am local trying to find someone who speaks English with authority, who is prepared to listen to you & set things in motion.

And all you can say is there's been an earthquake & you think there MAY be a tidal wave on the way.

[burn the bush]

193. oh my god! that is sickening. thanks for the post

one of about 5 on this page that actually says something.

[The Magistrate]

7. Shake It, Ma'am

The thing is quite beyond human power....

[ashmanonar]

8. although i'm sure people will tell you

that it's just utterly impossible for our paltry little bombs (sic) to cause earthquakes, but i personally think there's something to the thought that we're doing something to cause them...

there is a terrible price to pay tomorrow for today's mistakes, and we can only imagine what might be on our world...

[The Magistrate]

10. They Are Paltry, Sir

In comparison to the natural forces involved.

If every nuclear weapon in existance on the planet were simultaneously detonated, the release of energy would not quite amount to a third of the energy released in a level nine quake....

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. And in order to produce that effect

they would have to be detonated alonng a fault line, and as concentrated as possible, and not even then are we guaranteed the effect.

;-)

[Old and In the Way]

20. Hello Magistrate!

Glad to see you out and about!

[The Magistrate]

25. Thank You, My Friend!

A pleasure to see you still about the place as well!

[SmokingJacket]

40. And if I took my pinky, and used it to push a 2000 page dictionary

from the top of a tall building...

I could release enough energy to kill a man!

A small ouput of energy can begin a chain of events that might release a larger amount.

Frankly, this is a question better asked somewhere else, like a geology forum.

[The Magistrate]

45. To Do That, Ma'am

You would first have had to have added that energy to the dictionary by conveying up to that height. Whether or not this was done by walking up the stairs or by means of a powered elevator, you may be sure it would be a sufficient expenditure of energy that, if put into the form of a blow from a baseball bat, it would have done a similar degree of damage.

"Comedy is best left to professionals."

[SmokingJacket]

59. Obviously.

But it need not have been ME put the dictionary up there in the first place.

A small amount of energy can release a larger amount. My point still stands.

Are you a professional comedian?? Because, wow, that is so cool!

[The Magistrate]

62. Someone Had To, Ma'am

Or the potential energy would not be available to the object. Whether it was you or someone else is immaterial to the problem of how the energy accumulates. And that is where your analogy fails, because it cannot suggest any means by which the juncture of the tectonic plates was similarly primed, that is of an appropriate scale.

"If a man will continue to insist two and two do not make four, I know of nothing in the power of argument to stop up his mouth."

[SmokingJacket]

74. To be perfectly honest....

I never claimed to believe bombs set off this particular earthquake --I actually don't.

I was merely pointing out that a bomb need not *necessarily* be as powerful as an earthquake it *theoretically* might bring about. Yes, some potential energy would have to have built up. Someone -- a geologist -- posted a good response in another forum here, explaining that human activity can cause earthquakes. (This one? I don't think so.)

I think it's a question worth asking. But better asked in a geology forum, because on a political forum you can end up getting your questions answered by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

I think your smug tone set me off, frankly. Another example of a small release of energy bringing about the release of a larger one!

[Democracy Died 2004]

84. My god doesn't anyone here

watch Myth Busters? That was debunked some time ago.

[burn the bush]

47. it really woudn't have to cause it would it? Just start the ball rolling

so to speak

[The Magistrate]

52. The Rolling Ball, Ma'am

Has to convey sufficient energy to cause the event, in this case, to over-master the resisting force of whatver irregularities in the arrangement of the colliding edges of tectonic plates had heretofore been powerful enough to restrain the inertial motion of thousands of cubic miles of rock.

That degree of force is quite beyond any human agency, and hman agency had nothing whatever to do with the occurance of this earthquake. a variety of human blunders, from over-development of coastal areas to faulty or non-existant warning procedures, contributed to the consequences of the event, but that is a seperate matter from its causation.

[idiosyncratic]

12. Check out the Gaia theory.

I heard Simon Winchester (author of Karakatoa) talk about this.

It is interesting to think about the earth having a "spirit" and finally rebelling against all the environmental insults against her.

[NVMojo]

18. I go along with that ...

[ananda]

36. Did gaia go after the wrong region?

"It is interesting to think about the earth having a "spirit" and finally rebelling against all the environmental insults against her."

It does make you wonder. Still, if that's the case, why not go after America where live the worst environmental culprits on the planet...??

Sue

[idiosyncratic]

Well . . . last summer Florida got it. And all those tornadoes

send a message. Here in So. California we have had devastating fires, larger than any before, and just this week, Los Angeles got more rain than ever before in one storm . . . plus a couple of tornados.

When Yellowstone and Mount St. Helens blow their top, along with the caldera near Mammoth, we'll get what we deserve.

:cry:

[Donkeyboy75]

112. This is just as bad as Pat Robertson

suggesting that God allowed 9/11 to happen because he was rebelling against the lifestyles of the morally decadent. Please. :eyes:

[amazona]

121. seems a bit unfair

I don't think the good folks in Sumatra had anything to do with our oil grab in Iraq.

If earth has a spirit, she needs to improve her aim. There are plenty of bad guys to go around, no need to pick on children and the helpless.

[Daisey Mae]

9. definately...

These guys are capable of all types of evil to wards mankind because they feel that mankind is just cluttering up the earth by using up "THEIR" precious rescorces..... they only want enough riff-raff to keep around for slaves.... the rest are disposable.......

[RoyGBiv]

11. Physics

A brief introduction to a standard physics course should be all that is needed for you to shake the feeling.

[pretzel4gore]

13. they benefit somehow....

how a nightmarish disaster destroying life and hope, that even makes god look awful, could benefit a couple of nasty lil men like blair/bush must strike everyone as being a specious idea at best but the fact remains it is very good for them two pigs, and their cudchewing supporters....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. I suggest taking a geology class or going to the nearest large bookstore

and buying a layperson's introduction to historical geology.

The forces of plate tectonics are so much more massive than even the largest artificial explosions that it's like comparing the power of a bathroom shower to the power of Niagara Falls.

[Maple]

16. The denial of science on here

is a nasty thing.

The world is indeed all connected, and yes, underwater explosions can act as a trigger.


On edit: Deliberate, no. Not a plot. But entirely possible geologically.

[The Magistrate]

28. They Cannot Do So On Such A Scale, Sir

To maintain that they can is the denial of science going on here. Such denial ill-suits persons of left and progrressive views; it is better left to fundamentalist radicals and their swinish ilk....

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

55. Why, Ma'am

Would you think a reference to fundamentalist and other ignorant reactionaries related to you?

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[burn the bush]

57. i have no idea what game you play. I am not playing any games at the

moment but apparentyly you are.

[The Magistrate]

65. On The Contrary, Ma'am

You are playing the game of outrage, and doubtless find it sufficiently amusing to persist....

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maduroftime]

94. I don't think it is appropriate

to name-call someone with an opposing opinion. In truth, a great majority of conspiracy theory (especially ones related to world leaders conspiring to induce a >9.0 magnitude earthquake in the Indian Ocean) is debunked by science.

[burn the bush]

135. but i am not name calling, I am calling what i see which is not your

concern. However, i am not arguing with the blowhard because of his earthquake opinions but rather his blowhard attitude and fundy word usage. He is quite funny.
and now you are telling me that specifically scientist have studied the possiblitlity of a 9. earthquake being caused by world leaders. Oh just quit making shit up and saying it's been debunked by scientist.

[Fiona]

138. You're not name-calling?

What about the deleted post above wherein you called him a fuckwad?

Try a little honesty.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

150. or how about

dumb-fuck
or
blowhard

yeah...you're not name-calling...so not only is your idea a little more than off the wall...so is your concept of not name calling...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

168. i believe that was

dumb fuck not fuck wad. but if i used that then ok.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

169. and this is ok? n/t

[burn the bush]

195. shoe fits? yes is does

[ProdigalJunkMail]

196. where have I called you or anyone else even ONE name?

happy hunting on that one...seems you cannot see yourself calling names and issuing insults but conveniently see it in others who have not done that...interesting...

theProdigal

OnEdit : I'm sorry...you didn't answer my question...you think it is ok to call people fuckwad and asshole and the like???

[burn the bush]

203. when it is my honest opinion of the best word to describe them-

oh look up the words. they will fit.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

204. figures...

slurs are ok with you...should have known...

theProdigal

[fujiyama]

210. You seem to have

been personally insulted for having your theory or question shot down.

I don't understand what your point is. Earlier you claimed that you didn't know if humans had anything to do with the disaster, and yet you're attacking Prodigal because he dismissed your idea.

Sorry, but this is a matter of elementary science. It's like those that reply to evolution by saying "there's no way to know for sure, so don't say that's the way it happened".

Sorry, but that's a cop out. Science is used to give the most plausible explanation. In the case of theh question of human origins, evolution is the most probable explanation out there.

Just as in the case of earthquakes, plate tectonic movement makes the most sense. It is very unlikely, and highly improbable that humans had anything to do with the cause of the earthquakes and tsunamis. As has been posted, underground nuke testing may cause slight movements, but they aren't deep enough and not nearly powerful enough to cause movement of the plates...and especially at a 9+ magnitude.

Is it possible that humans can cause great disasters and affect the earth in a great many ways? Yes, of course, but it is foolish to ascribe God like powers to humans. Earthquakes have been occuring since the begining of the earth's existance...and will continue to occur. Unless someone was testing some far out, top secret weapon that no one knows of, the earthquake that occured the other day weren't caused by Bush or greedy oil companies, or the US government, or the CIA, or Blair, or any other human being.

By all likelyhood it was a natural disaster. Shit happens. Nature is unstable. It's wild. It's foolish for humans to believe that humans can have THAT much impact on it.

[burn the bush]

219. i am angry with the way that they choose to answer questions. The anger

is not about if people think it could or could not have been caused or influenced by man. I don't think someone can just say that it is impossible that we contributed to it. We don't really know what the govt are up to and obviously I believe it is a possibiltiy that they do know something that we aren't going to be told. And i don't think bomb blast, nuclear testing, oil testing or what ever else may be going on has anything to do wtih giving God like characteristics to anyone.
It's the way the know it alls answer questions on all the boards. They have to slam people in order to make themselves feel better about theirselves. So did i comeback defensive? Yep, and will be the next time i see the blow hards slamming peoples posts. People on here want to get involved. They have questions, they have ideas. They want to be part of it all but every time someone who is not IN with them posts something, they jump all over it. Is this a place for all of us or just them?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

221. where was the slam? my post #5 seems to have started all this

you took offense to your idea being shredded...there was no attack on you. None...but you can't seem to see that. Instead, you go around acting like YOU'VE been attacked. No one slammed you...they slammed your posit...and the way you put it...not you. But you will choose to be the martyr here and act as if someone has maligned you...maybe you should look at all the posts in this thread you have had deleted to get a better gauge on who is attacking whom...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

43. no, i don't think that even "they" would try to cause something like this

hmmm, well, I don't think that I think that anyway. But who knows what the hell they are all doing over there and what it could be causing that we (the world) still has no clue about. Why are whales beaching? What about the global climate change? There are just so many things that they do without a care to the world, and who knows what we will face in the future because of it?

[NVMojo]

17. do a google on Newmont Mining...the Indonesians have accused

this large mining corporation, with headquarters in Denver, of polluting the region they were extracting gold in for the past 10 years. Newmont has to follow environmental laws, such as the Clean Water Act and others in the USA and knows what the standards are. But they go over to third world countries and pollute the hell out of them. Well, some of the top executives of Newmont have been sitting in jail off and on over the recent months for mercury pollution and other offenses that the Indonesia government has charged them with.

They have a huge gold mine near Elko, Nevada and were involved in bringing Dick Cheney and Gail Norton, to name a few, to our little butthole town for the election. All while this Indonesia stuff was going on.

Pass me a tin hat but I wondered ......they've made their money over there in Indo while the price of gold was low ...

[The Magistrate]

24. And This, Sir, Relates To Earthquake Causation How?

"The mind wobbles...."

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

54. Clearly, Ma'am, You Are No Devotee Of The Bundys

"I couldn't be prouder of you if you thought you were Napoleon, Al...."

[burn the bush]

58. what? I have no clue what you just said

but your tone seems to have changed since i said you sound like a rush lover. hmmmmmmm

[The Magistrate]

63. That Is Obvious, Ma'am

If you consider me to be a rightist, by all means, do avail yourself of the alert function: that is what it is there for....

[ProdigalJunkMail]

157. Mr Magistrate...

strange that you and I should fall on the same side of an argument (well, not strange, but we have differed in the past) but your use of 'the mind wobbles' really made my night...I do think Kelly would have been able to see through this though...

theProdigal :hi: :toast:

[The Magistrate]

208. Indeed, Sir

Special as that girl was, she was nobody's fool....

Doubtless we shall be back to our accustomed slangings in future; theology, was it not...?

Best wishes for the New Year to you!

"Listen, the day Nick Ventura can't help a friend is the day he's got something better ta do!"

[ProdigalJunkMail]

209. and a happy new year to you and yours!

i have my slings...do you have your arrows??? :-) theology it was...

I love your quotes...even when they are smashing me about !!!

theProdigal

[amazona]

21. oh for cryin' out loud -- didn't we just hash this out?

No physical way we puny humans caused this or could cause it.

We have military bases on islands in every region.

[The Magistrate]

29. Yes, We Have, Ma'am

But when a belief is held for irrational reasons, it will prove impervious to rational considerations raised against it. Worse, irrational belief is frequently found in conjunction with obsessive orientations, and persons so ordered have an usual degree of energy regarding their particular points of focus....

"I prefer the wicked to the foolish. The wicked sometimes rest."

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

67. 'The Bleatin' O' The Kid Excites The Tiger.'

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amazona]

118. "The wicked sometimes rest."

I like that.

I think sometimes people don't comprehend the size of the world or the size of natural forces. I read long ago a fable about a society where no one died a natural death. If someone died, it was because they died of witchcraft. So the little island society was eventually torn apart by fear and hate because you couldn't even have an old man pass away in his sleep of old age without all the witch-hunters coming out.

[burn the bush]

53. why the hell is that now that you brought it up?

[JohnnyRingo]

23. If he could do that....

New England would be "New Atlantis" by now.

[eyepaddle]

26. Yes, I could set you straight

and tell you that we aren't causing these earthquakes.

There have been TONS, FRIGGIN' tons of these damned "Man caused this Tsunami" threads the last few days--how many more of these things are gonna get started? Is there going to be some influx of new information that the last fourteen of these things missed? I've tried to be as polite as possible, but this is getting to be too much.

I love science, I want others to share that love, so I encourage asking questions, but at some point it will behoove all if more people get the proper grounding so that you ask the right questions, and can effectively evaluate the answers. This stuff is sort of akin to asking a bunch of english-speaking-only people debating the syntax and sentence structure of Arabic--yeah, sure I could throw out some speculation, but how close is it likely to be to reality?

Let me just throw out a wild shot of my own for example--Jupiter's moon Io is the most volcanically active body in the solar system, this was discovered by a plutonium powered space probe--did the plutonium cause the volcanism?

(I'll give you a hint NO!)

It's not a textbook, but a great place to start understanding the concept of "science" Is Carl Sagan's book "The Demon Haunted World: science as a candle in the dark."

[mikehiggins]

27. tin foil time

we are not causing these natural disasters.

the estimate of the force released was in the range of many millions of megatons.

only Lex Luthor ever managed to kick off a quake and that was in the movies.

[Liberty2001]

44. Tin Foil Redux

Indeed, the idea that somehow that man could've created the earthquake which caused the tsunami makes me shake my head at just how deficient people generally are in math and science.

Imagine that a Flat Earth Society member walks in and starts asking questions at an astrophysicist conference. At first, the scientists will probably be polite and answer the questions and explain why the Flat Earther's "facts" don't lead to the conclusion he wants to reach ... but as the Flat Earther persists with the patently absurd line of questioning the scientists will grow tired and irritated and just ignore the Flat Earther not wanting to waste time on such stupidity. The scientists will just grow angry at the Flat Earther's persistence.

Some DU'ers on here remind me of Flat Earthers ... they WANT to believe in conspiracy so they fix their sights on any "facts" they think will support the RIDICULOUS notion that man created this earthguake. The idea is plainly ludicrous to those with any knowledge of science and math.

I know you hate * ... but c'mon ... this Tin Foil Conspiracy Theory stuff is just CRAP.

Not everything that happens that is bad was caused by greedy, evil Republicans ...

GET A GRIP PEOPLE!!!!!!

Some of you look like flat out looney toons with this stuff.

[burn the bush]

61. i think that we have the right and can ask whatever questions we want

and if you are tired of answering them, then shut up. I know what you are saying, but i also know that none of us really know what all may be going on there and elsewhere by our govt and other govts for that matter. I also have not said that this was caused by them. I asked the question and I included the possibility of bombing causign lesser quakes in areas but you all are the ones stuck on the tsunami only.
Again, if you tire of ansering, don't.

[The Magistrate]

69. You Have A Right To Ask Any Question, Ma'am

You do not have a right to have the question treated seriously when it is an extraordinarily foolish one....

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jdj]

111. that's not exactly true.

The picture I am forming in my head of you is not complimentary.

Your screed isn't in the DU rules. So quit pretending to be intelligent and come down to earth with the rest of us...other humans really aren't that frightening.

[Tinoire]

131. And I'll bet you would have told Copernicus & Galileo to get a grip

when they told the "practical ones" that the earth revolved around the sun & wasn't flat.

Burn the heretic and his nonesense at the stake! Shut him up- he's making the entire village look stupid! GET A GRIP!!!!! Some of you look like flat out looney toons with this stuff.

The scientists at the time, with their limited understanding of things (a situation which still holds true today) grew angry at the persistence of those asking questions too.

I'm happy for you that you think you have all the answers you need. That's no reason for you to calumnize those who accept the FACT that our knowledge of science is extremely limited.

[Fiona]

132. except

Copernicus and Galileo used science, observation and common sense to reinforce their ideas, not wild-ass speculation and rampant paranoia.

[Tinoire]

142. At the time it was considered "wild-ass speculation" n/t

[Fiona]

146. No, it wasn't

you seem to have a woefully lacking education in science.

[Tinoire]

153. It wasn't?

You mean all those people walking around convinced the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it just graciously accepted this information? Wowed by the science of it?

Wow. I won't even address your second point ;)

[Fiona]

200. No, it wasn't

wild-assed speculation and rampant paranoia. It was science - the use of observation and evidence to draw conclusions. Eventually the evidence was so clear and overwhelming it was universally accepted.

You think Galileo and Copernicus just dreamed up their theories? No... they observed and came up with hypotheses to test and theories that explained the observations.

That's science.

[Tinoire]

216. As in "Sound Science "? Like Global warming?

Ah I see... So let's stop inquiring until the the evidence is so clear and overwhelming that it will be universally accepted.

You have a very narrow, simplistic explanation of what constitutes science.

No sense continuing this conversation Fiona. I look forward to seeing you in other threads to see what other insight you have on the present distressing situation our country is in what with those criminal ass-holes in charge.

[Fiona]

217. I think you have

an overly broad explanation of what constitutes science. Pulling a hare-brained idea out of one's ass because one thinks one can score political points is not science.

And I agree, there's no sense in continuing this conversation - at least until you learn what science is.

[Tinoire]

235. Fiona dear

I understand how hard it is for you to leave your comfort zone. One day we'll have a conversation about flags ;)

I like this one even better than the upside down one indicating that my country has been hijacked by right-wingers. What do you think about it?


On edit: Make that demonic, crazed, seig-heiling right-wingers with too many shiny toys at their disposal.

[Fiona]

243. Tinoire, darling

this has nothing to do with my "comfort zone". Why discuss my feelings or emotions in this? We were discussing whether Galileo and Copernicus practiced science, or wild-assed speculation.

I like your flag. Mine is the flag that kept the union together.

[Tinoire]

251. "darling"? LMAO

dear is what I call annoying children.

A darling to you I'm afraid I'll never be :hi:

Ta-ta Fiona, farethewell on your DU journey.

Here's my favorite flag:

[Fiona]

252. Darling is what I call

strangers to condescend to me.

Now back to the discussion. What evidence do you have that Copernicus and Galileo used wild-ass speculation and rampant paranoia for their discoveries? Or have you moved past that discussion into personal insults alone?

Why not Fermez your own Bouche until you can learn to discuss like na adult?

[Tinoire]

254. Tsk tsk child... Temper... Temper

Most unbecoming in an "adult". Now, don't get all petulant. This is a discussion board. I'm sure you can to handle it if you try a little harder. Tsk tsk child.

[Fiona]

260. awww..

an anonymous stranger called me a child. Is that supposed to hurt?

I'm arguing facts - you're bringing in emotions and insults.

Now... back to the topic at hand. Can you explain how Copernicus and Galileo used wild-assed speculation and rampant paranoia? I've asked you repeatedly and you seem unable to answer with anything other than condescension or insults. Please try to stick to the topic at hand - it's the adult thing to do.

[Tinoire]

261. Lol, our "conversation" ended in post 216. I dont' like wasting my time

& in order not to be bothered wasting any more time, I'll bend my own rules and use the marvelous technology here in order to peacefully ignore further communications.

[Fiona]

262. as I suspected

you can't back up your insane assertion, so after the insults run out, you declare victory and run away. Exactly what I expected.

So for anybody watching, Tinoire cannot justify her assertion that Galileo's and Copernicus' ideas were considered wild-assed speculation.

[Donkeyboy75]

238. The irony in this post is just delicious. n/t

[Donkeyboy75]

239. It was widely believed by those

who were learned in Galileo's time that the earth was round. In fact, it had been known since the ancient Greek times.

Scientists didn't grow angry at the questions being asked. The church did. Read a history book, then learn about science. Wildly abandoning the fundamentals of physics, then lending creedence to crackpot theories ain't science. It's the other side of the coin.

[burn the bush]

87. i think lex luther is perhaps in the white house

though i don't think he could pull something like that off on purpose, i do have to wonder what humans have done to contribute to it.

[Eloriel]

91. Apparently

you're a little behind the times in your info about what/who has or has not caused earthquakes in the past. There's a post upthread that details a few incidents caused or exacerbated by man.

[bain_sidhe]

39. Been reading Michael Crichton, have we?

I quote from the disclaimer in the front of "State of Fear"

This is a work of fiction. Characters, corporations, institutions, and organizations in this novel are the product of the author's imagination, or, if real, are used fictitiously without any intent to describe their actual conduct.

Of course he does add...

However, references to real people, institutions, and organizations that are documented in footnotes are accurate. Footnotes are real.

But, I further note that there is NO footnote regarding any such thing as a "hypersonic cavitation generator"

Just so you know. ;)

[burn the bush]

64. No, we haven't but apparently you have. Dinosaur fiction/earthquake

oh yeah, thats all the same. What the heck was i thinking?

[bain_sidhe]

71. Do try to keep up... Crichton's newest novel

"State of Fear" has eco-terrorists creating a tsunami "aimed" at California, using timed explosions and a "hypersonic cavitation generator" to create an undersea landslide in the Solomon trench (about 100 miles off the coast of the Solomon Islands).

I just finished it last night. While I think he shoulda used Western Union (it's pretty much one long anti-environmentalist screed), it did, indeed, have a "man made tsunami" included in the events.

[The Magistrate]

72. Your Signature Line, Ma'am

Is top-drawer stuff!

With your permission, it may enter into my usual rotation.

[bain_sidhe]

73. Sure, feel free. It's not like I own the words

although I should warn you, I've not been able to find a source for it. Murrow said something SIMILAR in a speech accepting an award, but not that exact thing.

There's an older quote you might want to add in to your rotation too... hang on, let me find it...

Ok, here 'tis

A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.
--Bertrand de Jouvenal

Of course, de Jouvenal was more of a libertarian than a liberal, and his "Ethics of Redistribution" is often used to discredit "the welfare state." But, although I've never read any of his works, looking over the returns by google, he seems to be more concerned with limiting the power of the state in general, rather than denouncing "the welfare state" in particular. Another quote from one of his books (the quotation page doesn't say which one):

"It is appropriate here to recall that the so-called Dark Ages began with the flight of the individuals into the protection of lords or chapters and came to an end when the individual again found it to his advantage to set forth on his own. We live at a time when everything conspires to push the individual into the fold."

**edit to fix re-write error!**

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burn the bush]

205. sorry no time to keep up with fiction

[Forkboy]

247. this thread would seem to indicate otherwise

[shimmergal]

42. Of course Bush didn't cause it

but I can imagine him thinking he's as powerful as God now. After all, the number of deaths Bush is responsible for in Iraq and elsewhere may be about as many as the tsunami caused.

[jmatthan]

46. Maybe this will help understand

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1755/


The Kingdom Of Cards
A short story by Rabindranath Tagore

The world may be more finely balanced than a mere pack of cards!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[orpupilofnature57]

48. The only thing we know for sure, is that they wouldnt tell us anyway.

[eyepaddle]

60. Everybody Calm Down!

Here is a relevant thread to this disussion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2891764

[seabeyond]

66. how many 9.2 have there been

growing up in california, i have always been aware of earthquakes and their strength. dont hear of many 9.2

[The Magistrate]

68. Something On This Scale, Sir

Occurs every several decades somewhere, so far as known averages can be calculated. Accurate measurement of these things is a fairly recent development.

[goforit]

79. hmmmm..........over 9.0?.........more than decades, try centuries.

[Fiona]

82. Nope

a quake greater than 8.0 occurs, on average, once a year.

There were 9.0 or greater quakes in 1952, 1957, 1960, and 1964.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/docs/sign_eqs.htm

[Donkeyboy75]

126. That's just not fair, Fiona.

Facts are not allowed in paranoid impossibility threads. Conjecture and pie-in-the-sky wackjob theories only.

[Old Mouse]

241. Good to read you again, Magistrate!

I do hope the new year finds you well, and as pragmatic as ever.

[spooked]

70. A REALLY FASCINATING & SCARY THEORY

A guest on the radio program Coast to Coast Am with George Noory and Art Bell said that while people are saying that the recent earthquake caused Earth to slightly wobble on its axis, the opposite is true!

The Chandler Wobble, which they believe happens approximately every 14 months, is WHAT CAUSED THE EARTHQUAKE!!!

If this is true, look out February, 2006!

http://www.michaelmandeville.com/polarmotion/spinaxis/vortex_correlations2.htm
Eight Charts Which Prove That
Chandler's Wobble Causes Earthquakes,
Volcanism, El Nino, and Global Warming

[goforit]

77. And you wonder if in their minds they won or lost this catastrophe.

Was it a test?

Was it a distraction for bigger things to come?

Was this just an anger statement?

Was it vengence?(Bad PR with world)

Was it an ego booster?

Was it an intent to hurt China?

Was it just a warning?

Will this lead to worse things to come?

Was it to weaken their progressive economies?

Interesting............that both Blair and Shrub were disinterested
in this horrific event. A true sign of
psychopathic behavior.

[Tacos al Carbon]

85. Will the stupidity never end?

Wait, I know the answer to that question ...

[bain_sidhe]

92. Not if Republicans can help it.

Yes, I know, totally off topic. But really, it's the only thing that keeps the muddled masses voting for Republicans, so I thought I'd mention it anyway.

[neverforget]

97. A natural disaster is just that - a natural disaster. Good grief.

Earthquakes happen because the continental plates are moving.

[Fiona]

98. haven't you heard?

Earthquakes were nonexistent prior to 1945.

[jdj]

125. okay people,

this Phd person is on CNN talking about the science.

tune in to pay homage.

[Skeptic_All]

100. As awful as this disaster was..........................

for the author of this thread.........a recommendation:

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html#USE

Sorry..........but Dr. Evil wasn't capable of half of what you are suggesting!

[kc.ink]

141. cumulatively though, he IS. n/t

[alexisfree]

101. well...I don't know but ..

I do believe that the US has a technology far beyond more advance than anybody can imagine..so don't know but planing on population control is going on, planting on chips the humans is going on ...as right now they said they have chip the death bodies for "identification purpose" so go figure..

[eyepaddle]

102. Ooooohhhhhh-----Kaaaaaaaaayyyyy then,

Is your weekend going as good as it looks from here?

;)

[alexisfree]

104. well

I was very drunk last night and got this vision.....:crazy:

[eyepaddle]

106. LOL!

:toast:

[satori]

113. Top Secret Nuclear War Plans Revealed Include Mini-Nukes Bunker-Busters

Secret Pentagon plan for new nuclear arsenal

The Guardian
By Julian Borger in Washington
February 19 2003

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,898550,00.html

The Bush Administration is planning a secret meeting to discuss the construction of a new generation of nuclear weapons, including "mini-nukes", "bunker-busters" and neutron bombs designed to destroy chemical or biological agents, a leaked Pentagon document reveals.

"To me it indicates there are plans proceeding and well under way ... to resume the development, testing and production of new nuclear weapons. It's very serious," said Stephen Schwartz, publisher of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. It exposed the US to charges of hypocrisy at a time when it is demanding the disarmament of Iraq and North Korea.

[jdj]

119. what, I thought congress said no to this.

"penetrate deep into the earth" I remember.

Nothing is too vile for these evil ones.

[alexisfree]

122. I know...

freaking lizards...this can be true!! they have the technology..so who knows what are the plans for this planet..:scared:

[satori]

128. Bill Moyers PBS-Congress repealed ban on low-yield nuke weapons research

PBS
Now
Bill Moyers
04.02.04


http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript314_full.html

But we begin tonight with a story that has gone virtually unreported except for the attention of a few print journalists and technical publications. That's unfortunate because what's at stake is potentially a major shift in how we think about nuclear weapons and whether we're prepared to use them.

BILL MOYERS: One of the new weapons researchers are working on is called the "Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator." A nuclear bomb, that is, which could burrow deep into the earth to strike underground bunkers. The Pentagon estimates there are over 10,000 deeply buried bunkers worldwide, housing everything from weapons of mass destruction to military command centers.

LINTON BROOKS: There was provision in the law put in 1993 that banned any research that could, and the word "could," is important, lead to the development of a low-yield weapon. Since almost anything you do in nuclear research could lead to that development, we saw this as having a chilling effect on all forms of research.

BILL MOYERS: So last December, the administration prevailed and Congress repealed the research ban. Shortly afterwards, Linton Brooks wrote this memo to his team of nuclear researchers, telling them, quote, "We should not fail to take advantage of this opportunity." Now's Bryan Myers spoke with Brooks.

[jdj]

130. Congress dropped it from the spending bill in Nov. (WaPo article)

Funds for Atomic Bomb Research Cut From Spending Bill

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 23, 2004; Page A06

Congress has eliminated the financing of research supported by President Bush into a new generation of nuclear weapons, including investigations into low-yield atomic bombs and an earth-penetrating warhead that could destroy weapons bunkers deep underground.

The Bush administration called in 2002 for exploring new nuclear weapons that could deter a wide range of threats, including possible development of a warhead that could go after hardened, deeply buried targets, or lower-power bombs that could be used to destroy chemical or biological stockpiles without contaminating a wide area.


But research on those programs was dropped from the $388 billion government-wide spending bill adopted Saturday, a rare instance in which the Republican-controlled Congress has gone against the president. The move slowly came to light over the weekend as details of the extensive measure became clear.

Dropping the programs was praised by arms-control advocates and some members of Congress who tried unsuccessfully for several years to kill them. These opponents argued that such research by the United States could trigger a new arms race, and that the existence of lower-yield weapons -- sometimes called "mini-nukes" -- would ultimately increase the likelihood of war.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5554-2004Nov22.html

[satori]

134. What if another country started testing because of the first repeal?

What if another country started testing because of the first nuke ban repeal around 04/4004? The stop spending for it stopped 7 months later in 11/04.

What if after it was first repealed around November of 2004 I think that Moyer’s spoke of then some other country started testing on the same type of low yield nuke testing that they otherwise would not of done research into if Congress did not repeal it?

As far as I know Bush and his administration does not have very good foreign relations skills, perhaps he upset someone that was discussing it with him from some other country.

Congress dropped it some 7 months after it was repealed right?

[jdj]

136. Isn't N. Korea testing?

I think I read speculation that they were, but can't remember where.

Weird.

I think they didn't expect him to win re-election,and thought it wouldn't be an issue. When we won, they had to do this so as not to damage their hopes for re-election with constituents.

[satori]

248. Russian Scientists Surveyed Would Work in North Korea

By Mike Nartker
Global Security Newswire
12/17/2004

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2004_12_17.html#65616416

WASHINGTON — A “small, but significant” number of Russian scientists have expressed a willingness to consider working in rogue states, a researcher at the U.S. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory said here yesterday (see GSN, Nov. 17).

A 2002 study of 600 scientists found that 21 percent would consider working for at least a year in Iran, Iraq, North Korea or Syria, said Deborah Yarsike Ball of the laboratory’s Proliferation and Terrorism Prevention Program. The most popular potential destination was North Korea, Ball said, describing the finding as “positively perplexing.”

“You’re not going to North Korea for the job benefits,” she said during a presentation sponsored by Kennan Institute.

In the wake of the economic troubles caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, there has been concern that former Soviet WMD scientists may sell their expertise to rogue states or terrorist groups seeking to develop unconventional weapons. To address such concerns, the United States and other Western countries have established programs intended to help redirect such scientists to civilian research projects.

[satori]

250. Russians planted "tectonic weapons" in Afghanistan

Johnsons Russia list
Argumenty i Fakty
October 17, 2001
OUR PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN


Russia's special services have recently started actively encouraging Afghans who wish to return to their homeland. (True, there aren't too many of them. The Afghan diaspora in Russia has fewer than 50,000 people - nothing like 150,000, a figure often quoted in the Russian media.) Those Afghans who wish to regain power in Afghanistan are being trained in the latest partisan warfare methods and modern weapons-handling techniques.

According to our sources within the Afghan diaspora, elite commando units made up of native Afghans are being sent to the rear of the Taliban. Their objective is to help the Northern Alliance take Kabul, while preventing the Americans and British from setting up their own puppet government there under the pretext of fighting terrorism.

According to our sources, Russia might deploy some top-secret "tectonic weapons" which were planted in the mountains of Afghanistan before the Soviet troops pulled out. These weapons can create a series of subterranean tremors with vast destructive power; this would make the former Soviet-Afghan border impassable from the south for a long time.


http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5503-5.cfm

[Tinoire]

256. Georgia's Green Party had wanted an investigation into their tect research

BLACK SEA BASIN REGIONAL PROFILE:
THE SECURITY SITUATION AND THE REGION-BUILDING OPPORTUNITIES

(A Background and January - March 2000 Issue in Brief)
© Institute for Security and International Studies (ISIS), Sofia

Research Study 5
Hard Copy: ISSN 1311 – 3259

e) Georgia-Russia
((March 2000))
Georgia’s Green Party called for an international investigation of the Esheri (Abkhasia) Russian secret military laboratory in mid-January. The Greens speculate that nuclear and tectonic weapons are developed by the laboratory.

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isis/Research_Studies/Black_Sea_Basin_Regional_Profile/BlackSea2000_01-03.htm

[Tinoire]

133. Tectonic Plate Science is only 40 years old

Who knows. We never will. We'll never now what kind of weapons these criminals and their predecessors have been working on because the very existence, the very names of many of these weapons are classified. Good luck on ever seeing the test results.

The French government, was successfully taken to court in the 80's for creating a tsunami like tidal wave. Mind you, that was over 20 years ago. In 20 years, we have developed shinier, deadlier weapons with the TRILLIONS we have poured into their development and I guarantee you they're not sitting on some shelf gathering dust. They're being tested and causing all sorts of harm to the ocean's floor. The coral reef in that area has taken a severe nuclear pounding over the last few decades which makes it harder to dissipate waves. God there is so much there... the poster who brought up how even a little trigger could declench a catastrophic chain of event isn't as loony as the practical ones are accusing.

Tectonic Science - 40 years old and SOOOOOOOOOO many experts in it right here at DU. Who would have thought we'd be so fortunate?

No imagination? NO discoveries.

People who can't accept the possibility that, between 1979 when the French had their little testing accident and 2005, weapons have become much ghastlier thanks to computational aid from computers, new compounds and scientific discoveries need to march right up to the Pentagon and DEMAND an immediate refund for the trillions that would hae been obviously squandered.


You go boy. You burn the bush! You never stop asking questions. Just be prepared that you may never find all the answers either.


=====

* Environmental Effects of Underground Testing at Moruroa

The possible environmental effects of underground testing include short-term and longterm effects. At the time of the explosion, fracturing of the atoll surface triggers landslides, tsunamis (tidal waves), and earthquakes. There is also evidence that radionuclides have vented to the environment. Possible long-term effects include leakage of fission products to the biosphere and transfer of dissolved plutonium from the lagoon to the ocean and the food chain.


* Physical Damage to the Reef

The upper layer of the atoll is made up of reef carbonates, mainly limestone. This limestone cover is approximately 300 meters in the south of the atoll, increasing to 430 - 550 meters in the north. The upper part of this limestone layer is undolomitized and comprises porous coral debris, approximately 125 meters thick. The lower part is dolomitized and therefore quite compact.

This limestone layer is separated from the underlying volcanic material by a transitional zone of variable thickness, composed mainly of weathered clays. It can vary in thickness from 40 to 45 meters below the atoll to a mere 50 centimeters or even nothing beneath most of the lagoon.

The clay zone is impervious. The underlying volcanics are initially aerial volcanics, which then change to more homogeneous submarine volcanics at greater depths.

Each scientific mission to Moruroa has described severe impairment of the integrity of at least the carbonate part of the atoll. The damage includes fissures in the limestone and surface subsidences of large areas of the atoll. Fissures are propagated by the testing, a result of the cumulative compacting of the limestone. Fissuring serves to increase lateral and vertical water transport in the carbonate body of the atoll,(24) possibly resulting in more rapid leakage of the fission products. The French authorities claim that no new damage is occurring because the tests are no longer conducted under the reef crown but under the lagoon.(25) This claim is contradicted by underwater observations of the Cousteau mission, which discovered recently fallen noncolonized limestone blocks, suggesting that tests were carried out in the months immediately preceding their arrival and that on-going tests are still damaging the reef. (26)

* Triggering of Landslides, Tsunamis and Earthquakes

At least one major test-related landslide and consequent Tsunami in Moruroa, on July 25, 1979. Apparently, the 120kiloton weapon, which was supposed to be lowered into a shaft of 800 meters, got stuck at a depth of 400 meters and could not be dislodged. The French authorities decided to explode the device anyway. This explosion resulted in a major underwater landslide of at least one million cubic meters of coral and rock and created a cavity, probably 140 meters in diameter. The underwater landslide produced a major tidal wave comparable to a tsunami, which spread through the Tuamotu Archipelago and injured people on the southern part of Moruroa Atoll. (27)
French authorities initially denied that any mishap had occurred and declared that the tidal wave was of natural origin, but in a publication in 1985 they did acknowledge "the accident of 25 July 1979".(28)

http://canterbury.cyberplace.org.nz/peace/nukenviro.html

more info

http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/rw/sci.html
and if that's not enough for some people, let your fingers do the walking and start googling.


The Cousteau foundation weary from years of warnings said, of that incident, "we told you so". The results of their subsequent examination of the area are still classified.

And that's just one case... Heaven only knows what else the SuperPowers have been cooking under the ocean's surface and how it could have possibly contributed or even caused this.

[jdj]

139. come now, where is your blind trust

and faith in government?

"In God we trust
All others we monitor."

Thanks for posting.

[Tinoire]

201. Trust in this government? LMAO Larry King on TV trying to convince the

world with a slew of "expert" saying yes it's natural, yes nature did it, tectonic plates, tectonic plates, yes it was a natural catastrophe.

I couldn't help but think "how curious". If it's such an accepted 'fact', why three epxerts in a row to tell everyone what a natural occurence this was?

Anyway... back to your laughing, sarcastic question...

Trust in this government? My flag is upside down. Serious distress signal here ;)

[satori]

143. 1960s scientist-Nuke tests about a mile underground is undetectable

FIVE 1960 INTERVIEWS WITH DR. LINUS PAULING

THE WAR AGAINST WAR - Three
by Virgina Mill & Robert Carl Cohen
The Fight For An A-Bomb Test Ban

http://radfilms.com/pauling_interview_part_3.html

COHEN: One of the major U.S. objections to a bomb test ban agreement has been the claim that underground tests could be held secretly. Is it possible to excavate a cave deep enough underground that even a Hiroshima size bomb could be muffled to the degree that it couldn't be detected?

PAULING: Theoretically you would need to dig a hole 800 feet in diameter and about a mile underground and put the bomb in the middle of it. A Hiroshima bomb exploded there would probably escape detection.

COHEN: What would the engineering problem be?

PAULING: Well, this question has been analyzed, and the engineering problem is a pretty serious one: First, no one knows how to dig a hole 800 feet in diameter and a mile underground, except in a salt dome. The salt domes are few and far between, but it could be done by running immense amounts of water in and out to dissolve the salt. This water would have to be run into a river and ultimately reach the ocean. Chemical analysis would show that this is being done - so that it wouldn't really be possible to dig such a hole in secret. The world would know.

[Tinoire]

151. 1960's... 45 years ago

(cynicaly, tired laugh)

I can't stop laughing Satori... and that was from an unclassified interview 45 years ago!

We'll never know the truth on what, if anything, happened out there that man may have had a hand in but it just boggles my mind that inquisitevness is now dismissed as looniness. Boggles.

Thanks for posting that. Check this out- unrelated to this particular argument but related to the larger picture you've obviously been concerned about since before all of this. The plant is ok though and scheduled to resume operations shortly.

Tsunami may have damaged Indian nuclear power plant: government

Mon Dec 27, 3:26 PM ET South Asia - AFP

NEW DELHI (AFP) - Huge waves that battered the Indian coastline after an earthquake in Indonesia may have damaged a nuclear power plant in southern Tamil Nadu state, the government said.

The Press Trust of India (news - web sites) news agency said Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had called a meeting on Tuesday to review any damage to the plant.

Authorities on Sunday shut down the Indira Gandhi Atomic Energy Centre in Kalpakkam, 80 kilometres (49 miles) south of Tamil Nadu capital Madras as a precaution.

(snip)

"Information reaching here suggests that facilities at Kalpakkam nuclear station may have been affected by the tidal waves," said a spokesman from the prime minister's office.

(snip)

A senior scientist said Sunday one unit of the nuclear power plant had been "shut down safely and cooled down."

The private NDTV news channel said 1,500 families in the Kalpakkam township of Tamil Nadu had been evacuated by government relief agencies.

(snip)
http://government.india.news.designerz.com/tsunami-may-have-damaged-indian-nuclear-power-plant-government.html
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041227/wl_sthasia_afp/asiaquakeindianuclear_041227202625
www.bapeten.org/md/modules.php?op=modload& name=News&file=article&sid=33

[burn the bush]

211. thank you for this post

and thanks to all of you who can take a simple question and either answer it or not without making people feel like they are idiots. To all of you, i apologize for all my cussing but I am just so so sick of the know it alls who continually jump on the poor questioners rather than contribute positively. They really need to get a life. I see it all the time on here. "You sir, have misspelled that word, therefore obviously your question is of utmost stupidity" Ok thats not really what they say, but you know what i mean. They turn all the boards into these fighting boards. No opinion is allowed but theirs. They pick up on one little thing that really may not have anything to do with the post and just slam it until the original question is totally lost.
It has kept me from asking questions before, but since I did, I was not going to back down from the old timers blow hard group no matter how stupid I may have sounded too.
Doesn't make much sense of course just fighting for the underdog who just happened to be me this time.
Again, I apoligize to all of you who have attempted to help me answer my questions either in support of or against the idea of man influence in quakes, and have had to listen to me be crappy and lame.
thanks again for your input.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

212. this isn't about opinion and you know it

so please stop playing coy. It is about your agenda in posting this little 'question'. Were it a question, it would have been, "Could people have caused this tragedy? Was it global warming? Did nuclear testing or bombing in Iraq cause this?" But no, you piped in with Bush/Blair 'knowing something'.

You know, I did simply answer your question. Your utter ignorance of physics IS the problem (or at least your excuse).

And, once again, nice use of name calling (blow hard)...it suits you and your purpose...

theProdigal

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

214. yes, you have an agenda that is obvious

and in the process insult those who died and those who have to live in the aftermath of this tragedy...Bush/Blair indeed.

Sorry the truth irritates you...can't help that.

:spank: is probably closest to what you are looking for...

theProdigal

OnEdit : Shut up? isn't this a discussion board? do you wish to suppress my speech here? sounds consistent...

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

215. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

228. Don't let them goad you. It's a favorite trick to get people banned

goad them into anger until they lose it. My advice? Delete your post and go calm down. Don't ever let them goad you like that. Stick to mockery isntead- goaders can't stand that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

229. mocking the truth only serves to make you look foolish

but mock on if you must...only people with the need to defend the indefensible act in the manner you describe...

theProdigal

[Tinoire]

225. No need to apologize about squat... And don't ever stop

asking questions! Don't you ever let the "old timers blow hard group" cow you into silence. I have news for you, you were more defended by the "old timers blow hard group" than you think, in this and in other threads. The "blow hard group" that gives people a hard time hasn't been here that long. You'll notice as you post that there's a select group of people whose agenda is to make this board lurch from left to (center-)right, and another that wants this board to be a polite, respectable, unembarrassing tea-party that won't embarrass them in front of God only knows what lurkers. Then you have a group that's just plain old trouble-makers. Mentally note the names of those who rudely try to shut you up points they don't like because usually they don't last long- they either trip themselves up in other threads or get bored pretending to be something they're not and not being able to come out.

You didn't sound stupid. Quite the reverse.

Quite a shame isn't it that certain people have nothing better to do than come try to stop a discussion? See you around ;)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

227. sorry Tinoire

but stopping this discussion would have better served this board hours ago. It is ludicrous to believe that anything manmade had anything to do with a magnitude 9+ earthquake...we as a RACE don't have the technology nor the power to do something like this...and speculating about it here make all of DU look like :tinfoilhat: of the worst sort...

theProdigal

[Tinoire]

231. That's what we heard about 9-11, the Iraq war & PNAC too.

This site was known for "tin-foil". I can not for the life of me understand why it attracts people who don't like that and who then spend the majority of their time here stomping out tin-foil fires. I'm serious about that...

Besides why should anyone care what it looks like? We're not trying to impress anyone :shrug:

This is a grass-roots board; it doesn't represent anything except the opinions of the people who post here, imo.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

234. but opinions need to be informed

not wild assed crazy. I don't like conspiracy theories...they are often more complicated than can be sustained. But at least the ones you mention above are plausible...man causing a 9+ Richter event is not...

And I don't want you to impress anyone...but I don't like the thought of people in the middle (love em or hate em they ARE the majority) seeing this sort of baseless and frankly mindless speculation on a left-leaning board...people should be able to post what they want...and expect it to be shot down if it should be...

theProdigal

[burn the bush]

233. thanks again and I apologize to the old timer know it alls that don't fall

into this crappy crop. Sorry guys.

[theboss]

155. Oh,My.God,

Man cannot create a 9.0 earthquake. Any device that could create the necessary energy to cause such a thing would pretty much destroy the earth - if such a device could be created - which it can't.

[OutsourceBush]

187. hydrogen bomb might be able to do it....

[Tacos al Carbon]

202. And you make this assertion based

on what facts, exactly?

[OutsourceBush]

207. Based on a thing called a "search engine"

It lives on a thing called the "Internet"

It points you to many sites that say the hydrogen bomb is far more powerful than (10x 100x 1000x ?) atom bombs.

We have a story here that says the quake was equal to "10,000 Hiroshima atom bombs"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tsunami/story/0,15671,1382162,00.html?gusrc=rss

We have a story here that says that there is at least one government in the region messing with hydrogen bombs.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a260491.htm

(excuse the source, you have to take them where you can get them)

[Tacos al Carbon]

224. Jesus H. Christ

On a pogo stick. You base your scientific assertion on a newspaper article and a Free Republic post. Yoiu have no idea how powerful a hydrogen bomb actually is, even though that information is readily available on the "Internet" that you so smugly cite, and you conclude out of the blue that because X=Y in power output, therefore X can cause Y to occur. Do you get how silly that is?

I read somewhere that libraries are starting to close down. Get yourself to one while you still can and do some research before posting syupid assertions about complex subjects about which you apparently know nothing at all.

Learning your science from Free Republic. Oy vey!!

[burn the bush]

226. see like this one

[fujiyama]

232. The problem isn't necessarily the article

It's actually an NY Times article, but nevertheless it's about India experimenting with nuclear weapons, and that too, lower yeild nuclear weapons. Plus, there is always the possibility that India exagerrated the power of the weapons they were testing/experimenting with.

The only problem is, as you said, there seems to be little understanding of the scale of an earthquake compared to an H Bomb. An H Bomb is nothing compared to a 9+ magnitude earthquake and the only way H bombs could cause tectonic activity would be if there were many concentrated together. Even the US would not use such a huge number, and even if they did, I see no reason to believe they would cause such activity.

In all honesty, I don't understand why some people need to believe there is something "more" to this. I do remember, they tought us earth science in our freshman year of HS.

[Tinoire]

237. Good find about the hydrogen bombs, interesting article

:)

From the NYT article which was merely referenced at FR

John F. Burns, "Indian Scientists Confirm They Detonated a Hydrogen Bomb," The New York Times, May 18, 1998, p. 1.

India says that it tested five devices on May 11 and 13, 1998, and that four of them were fission devices with yields of 0.2 kT, 0.2 kT, 0.6 kT and 12 kT.

and as noted by some military officers being extremely deferential and respectful in their conversation:

India's three subkiloton tests, along with the 12-kT test and its May 1974 test might have provided enough information for India to produce a reliable weapon with a 10-20 kT yield that would be light enough (1000 kg or less) to be deliverable by tactical aircraft or ballistic missile.

India has said that its other nuclear test was of a thermonuclear device with a yield of 42 kT.

http://worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=1627&page=3&pp=20

[satori]

199. Free Press -Tsunami- US Media Blackout Of 'Massive Government Failings'

Free Press International
1.1.2005

http://www.freepressinternational.com/mainstream_television_blackout_8172a1200034.html

It's been 8 days since the 2004 Sumatra disaster and US mainstream television is near silent on the 'massive government failings' that could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Early on Sunday morning, powerful computers in a Vienna office building received seismic data on the earthquake that spawned the devastating tsunamis across south Asia - information that might have saved lives in the hours between the quake and the waves hitting the coasts of Sri Lanka, India and several other countries. But the data streaming into the computers of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty Organization served no purpose Sunday. The 300 staff are on vacation until Jan. 4.- International Herald Tribune

[Freddie Stubbs]

206. This reminds me of the peole who tink that you can stop a hurricaine

with nuclear weapons.

[Taverner]

218. I guess the question is can a bomb near a plate, trigger an earthquake?

I don't see how, plates are huge and require large amounts of energy to get them to move at the slow rate they do.

However, I keep getting reminded of the "straw that broke the camels back" analogy....what if one happened at just the right time in the right place - could it be possible?

I suppose It might - but I am doubtful.

[burn the bush]

223. I too, am doubtful and I am not just questioning THIS quake

My post was asking about all quakes, everyone just took it to this large quake.

[laundry_queen]

259. I think it is possible...

perhaps not in this instance (although my mind remains open to anything) but it does not take a bomb with the energy of an avalanche to trigger an avalanche, now does it? So why do people assume that the bomb to trigger an earthquake must somehow equal the resulting energy coming from the earthquake?
I live in an area with no faults but a ton of oil exploration going on. There have been a few 4.0 and a couple 5.0 quakes from that. You tell me if a 5.0 quake or equivalent type of disturbance near a 'mature' fault line couldn't trigger an earthquake of larger magnitude? Balderdash! The earthquake may have happened later on it's own, or humans could have hurried it along. Who knows? Not me, but I think it's better for us to keep our minds OPEN to anything.
As for humans not being powerful enough to disturb the earth, what do you think pollution is doing to the earth? Humans caused pollution, it is destroying the earth. Or we could bury our heads in the sand and say that us lowly humans could never cause such destruction on our massive earth. :eyes:

[Tinoire]

269. Welcome to DU laundry_queen!

:toast:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Mahatma Gandhi

[Old Mouse]

240. Such an idea would be impossible without trace

A nuclear event large enough to trigger an earthquake of that magnitude would poison the entire Indian Ocean.

Precise calculation of fault activation only happens in Superman movies, our geological knowledge is really much more limited than people realize. It would be far easier to nudge an old military satellite out of orbit, but that wouldn't produce aftershocks.

As much as I would LOVE to blame this on Bush, it seems highly improbable, but I do not blame you for questioning.

Congratulations on opening a post of amazingly opposed opinions!

[Tinoire]

267. That's the nicest post in this thread Old Mouse.

Good point. Very clear... but most of all, very kind. Just wanted you to know you're on my A list ;)

[Old Mouse]

271. Thank you!

I hope I can manage to stay there!

[rman]

242. can you convince me that we are causing these "natural" disasters?

-

[nascarblue]

244. Shrub reacted exactly the same on 9-11.

And we all know he lied and knew plenty about that. There's actually a couple of well researched articles about this exact subject. I think you all should read it. It leaves irrefutable proof that at the very least, they knew about it in time to save 10's of 1000's of lives and did nothing. Please forward this article that answers these questions and more..

Q: Is underwater nuclear testing common?

Q: What are the effects of underwater nuclear testing?

Q: Is there a warning system for tsunamis in place?

Q: Could the carnage have been avoided?

Q: Were there any oddities about the quake besides this?

Q: Have tidal waves figured in weapons research?

http://www.counterpunch.org/rajiva12302004.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/hoffman12292004.html

[nascarblue]

253. Coincidence! Major Iran Quake exactly one year before!

I find it a bit telling that the corporatocracy economic hitman are all going down there. The World Bank along with Jeb and Colin Powell(who, remember, just went to OPEC last month) I think tells you your answer. Anyone see Powell on Meet the Press? He was lying his ass off. It infuriates me that Powell gets such a free pass. He's as dirty as anyone. In fact dirtier as he's gotten his hands dirty directly. Iran-Contra, the Sadinistas, Gulf War, etc.

Plus, don't you think it's more than a coincidence that Iran had their earthquake EXACTLY one year before...to the hour! Dec. 26th, 2003. If you remember the U.S. was to put their differences aside for humanitarian efforts...well to this day Iran has not gotten one red cent. Iran's earthquake was also odd and historically the worst in the region. Scientists are still investigating it.

"Coincidence! Major Quake exactly one year before
http://infowars.com/articles/world/tsunami_earthquake_coincidence.htm

[Tinoire]

255. Here's some more stuff for you- Sec of State William Cohen & Kucinich

When out guys say we need to DEFEND against this kind of thing, you had better start to believe they put some of the trillions they spent in weapons development into it themselves.


DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen
Monday, April 28, 1997 - 8:45 a.m. EDT

Cohen's keynote address at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy at the Georgia Center, Mahler Auditorium, University of Georgia, Athens, Ga. The event is part of the Sam Nunn Policy Forum being hosted by the University of Georgia. Secretary Cohen is joined by Sen. Sam Nunn and Sen. Richard G. Lugar.]

"Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves.

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important."

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/1997/t042897_t0428coh.html

===

Then you may remember Congressman Kucinich's Space-based Weapons Bill. Kucinich, unlike some of the 'experts' who have been ridiculing you, sits on the House Intelligence Committee so he I'd wager he knows what he's talking about ;)

Bill 107th CONGRESS, 1st Session, H. R. 2977

To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons

Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as—

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) chemtrails;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

[burn the bush]

257. wow, I must admit that when I originally posted my fears that I was hoping

to find out that mankind in it's everyday affairs could NOT have contributed to this or other earthquakes, let alone govts deliberatly doing it. I really appreciate all of this info but now I am even more concerned. Wow. could lex luther really be in the white house and or in power in other countries? And if so, where is Superman? Crap, or is that Batman?
:scared: :cry:

[Tinoire]

263. Well put it this way- there's not much you can do about it

short of remaining inquisitive and getting your answers so that you're aware enough to know what to protest and also to make wiser selections when voting.

There's a lot more information out there but you're not going to find that much on the inernet. Already, it's not a "popular" subject and most of it would be so highly classified that you can bet your sould it won't see the light of day for many decades.

I'm glad you're concerned. You should be. We ALL should be. And we should all be OUTRAGED that the US has refused to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. Read that and shiver because it's a clear announcement to the world that we reserve the right to test any weapon we want.

To date, all but 3 of the 44 nations (India, Pakistan, and North Korea) have signed the CTBT and 31 of the Annex 2 states (those that have nuclear weapons or nuclear facilities whose signature and ratification are required to bring the treaty into force) have ratified the treaty. Of the 13 states that have signed, but not ratified the treaty the United States of American and the People's Republic of China are notable exceptions.

Despite these huge warning signs you're expected to put blind faith in the fact that you're pouring trillions into weapons development but that the only weapons we have out there, are the ones you can google up, and that they're deceloping a bunch of obscene weapons that just, ha, sit on the shelf untested. I have no idea what happened in the Indian Ocean but my mind is not closed to the fact that this criminal administration can not be trusted AT ALL and that no stone should ever be left unturned.

Btw, here's how our Senators voted on the issue
http://www.clw.org/coalition/bckgrvts.htm

Note about that website:

* This website is a permanent archive of the Coalition to Reduce Nuclear Dangers. This material will no longer be updated after January 1, 2002. The archive is maintained by the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation.

So if you really want to watch this issue:

http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/nukes/ctbt/
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/ctbt/

[satori]

258. Terrorism Intel Experts- Tectonic weapons likely in the hands of Al Qaeda

Northeast Intelligence Network
Jill St. Claire, Network Analyst
Al Qaeda's Navy
(Part 2)
An Analysis Of Its Potential Danger


What you are about to read is a compilation of intelligence and information gathered from various sources ranging from press releases issued by the White House to various communications made by known or suspected terrorists on both open and “closed” forums. The opinions and theories stated here are those of this analyst based exhaustive research and analysis of the data referenced above. Any information contained in this analysis that could be interpreted as a threat to the US , it citizens or allies has already been turned over to the appropriate federal authorities.

Tectonic Weapons

At the risk of being labeled as a “conspiracy theorist,” my on-line research of open-source documentation has indicated that there is much about these weapons of mass destruction that someone, somewhere does not want disseminated to the general public. Tectonic weapons may just be the weapons of mass destruction that we should fear the most. The effects of this weapon are relatively unknown and speculated upon at best. It is indeed known and accepted, however, that once such a device has been detonated, there is not any way to predict the affects it will have on humans, on our atmosphere, our land, or the entire world. Tectonic weapons exist for one purpose alone, which is the alteration of destruction of the earth’s eco-system and ultimately human life. These weapons are detonated by remote control, and as indicated above, their long-term consequences are unpredictable.

Whoever is trying to keep these devastating weapons under wraps from the general public can not do so anymore…. credible evidence and exhaustive investigation suggests that these weapons of mass destruction are likely already in the hands of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda Terrorist Network.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.net/al_qaedas%20navy%20part%202.htm

Al Qaeda’s Navy
An Analysis Of Its Potential Danger

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/Analysts%20Notebook.htm

[Tinoire]

265. Very interesting site but it's a Bush fear-mongering site you know

This is the site that was the first to carry one of the decapitation videos. I'm going to spend a little more time on it, just reading.

Whoever it belongs to put a lot of work put into it they're really on an Al-Qaeda trip.

Despite that... What I find extremely interesting, because of this recent tsunami, is that you find on a propaganda Bush fear-mongering site a scenario involving the use of tectonic weapons against the United States.

Now why would such a Bush-leaning government friendly site have such a scenario, based on "research", written waaaaay before there was a need for this discussion, if such a thing didn't exist? This on top of Kucinich's bill, past incidents (and God knows incidents we know nothing off)... It really makes you wonder...

This is right after the part you snipped... Her little scenario

The general public has a right to know what they are, where they are used, what purpose they could serve in the hands of terrorists, and what the consequences could be…..

Imagine this…. you are sitting in your office, and you hear a news report saying that a major earthquake has just occurred on the West Coast. The epicenter is a few miles off the coastline north of San Francisco . Preliminary reports indicate that there is a possibility that an underwater nuclear explosion might have triggered the quake. Waves breaking along the coastline both north and south of the epicenter are engulfed in flames, burning everything that they touch, and killing hundreds. Would you believe it? Probably not…. but understand this…it can happen…IF a tectonic bomb is detonated on the San Andreas Fault

Who is this Jill St. Claire? All I could initially find was this and it's not very informative.

Jill St. Claire is the most senior analyst with the Northeast Intelligence Network and has logged over 3,000 (three-thousand) hours of research in the last 18 months, averaging about 40 hours per week. Ms. St. Claire has over 800 submissions to United States intelligence agencies to her credit, with numerous submissions acknowledged for saving lives and foiling planned attacks against our assets.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=39417
&

This is a special division of Tactical Publications dedicated to the fight against terrorism, developed and maintained as www.HomelandSecurityUS.com, a division of Hagmann Investigative Services, Inc. We are comprised of a small contingent of experienced investigators known as Northeast Intelligence Services founded by veteran private investigator Douglas J. Hagmann.

This is an anti-terrorist web site developed in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on America that will offer practical reference information, vital links, and other valuable information from an investigative perspective. Although we are not related to OR ENDORSED BY any government agency, we will interact with the applicable law enforcement agencies on a regular basis.

http://devclue.com/blog/politics/war_on_terror/

[gorbal]

266. What about all those Missing Ukrainian warheads?

Here are the only links I could google right of: read them carefully-

http://www.thenation.com/failsafe/index.mhtml?bid=2&pid=105
http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/news/id2702/pg1/

Perhaps a certain somebody is upset about losing an election?

[nomatrix]

268. Can we go back to the original question.?

"I can't shake the feeling that shrub and Blair knows something more."
What is so far fetched about that? Don't you think the WH gets briefings over the course of the day on events happening worldwide? Considering there are bases there we know were warned. Also British and U.S. submarines are used to chart the ocean floor, it would seem inside information might get through.
For some, get out the tinfoil and start wrapping.

I have heard that we have been doing underwater mining explorations in the region.

Yes "they" have. We is the wrong choice of words. Corporations do have Natural Gas, Oil, pharmaceutical companies exploring, etc.
When you mine on land, do you not destroy the infrastructure that hold the layers of earth together? Fly over W. Virginia or Pittsburgh mining regions. Cave ins do happen. Landslides or mudslides do happen. Real events on land.

"I also can't help to wonder what the effects of all the bombing that we have done has caused. It seems to me, that several times when we used those huge bombs in afghanistan & Iraq, that there have been earthquakes in other areas."

Nothing declared here but wonder. This government (not just this administration) has never been forthright about nuclear testing, ever. Based on history, why would this be so out there?
The new weapons (from my understanding) are designed so that a
1 Kiloton bomb, placed 1 mile underground would have the same effect 35 kiloton bomb 1 mile above ground, yes or no? Not much information.

I have never seen any information on testing done beside a undersea fault or undersea mountain causing a landslide, then recorded the Richter scale measurement. Has anyone got a link to it?

Science is great. I don't know who is asking the questions. Rather than place tinfoil on everyones head, let's encourage them to do some searching to find the answers. Who knows where it will take them. There are students who come to the forum.


A tsunami is caused by a landslide or earthquake, volcano formation, tectonic plate shift, meteor crashing into the sea, etc.

http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/plate-tectonics.html

[Tinoire]

270. Good post n/t

[satori]

272. Bhopal disaster expert -Background on the HAARP Project

Background on the HAARP Project
Earthpulse Press
November 5, 1996
By Rosalie Bertell
PhD, GNSH

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/weapons.htm

Dr. Bertell directed the International Medical Commission - Bhopal which investigated the aftermath of the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal, and of the International Medical Commission - Chernobyl, which convened the Tribunal on violations of the human rights of victims in Vienna, April 1996.

_________________________________________________


Military interest in space became intense during and after World War II because of the introduction of rocket science, the companion to nuclear technology. The early versions include the buzz bomb and guided missiles. They were thought of as potential carriers of both nuclear and conventional bombs. Rocket technology and nuclear weapon technology developed simultaneously between 1945 and 1963. During this time of intensive atmospheric nuclear testing, explosions at various levels above and below the surface of the earth were tried. Some of the now familiar descriptions of the earth's protective atmosphere, such as the existence of the Van Allen belts, were based on information gained through stratospheric and ionospheric experimentation.

The military implications of combining these projects is alarming. Basic to this project is control of communications, both disruption and reliability in hostile environments. The power wielded by such control is obvious. The ability of the HAARP / Spacelab/ rocket combination to deliver very large amount of energy, comparable to a nuclear bomb, anywhere on earth via laser and particle beams, are frightening. The project is likely to be "sold" to the public as a space shield against incoming weapons, or , for the more gullible, a devise for repairing the ozone layer.

According to Defence News, April 13 - 19, 1992, the US deployed an electromagnetic pulse weapon (EMP) in Desert Storm, designed to mimic the flash of electricity from a nuclear bomb. The Sandia National Laboratory had built a 23,000 square metre laboratory on the Kirkland Air Force Base, 1989, to house the Hermes III electron beam generator capable of producing 20 Trillion Watt pulses lasting 20 billionths to 25 billionths of a second. This X-ray simulator is called a Particle Beam Fusion Accelerator. A stream of electrons hitting a metal plate can produce a pulsed X-ray or gamma ray. Hermes II had produced electron beams since 1974. Thes devises were apparently tested during the Gulf War, although detailed information on them is sparce.