do you want to know how ugly we are under bush

[seabeyond]

over 100 k dead in iraq and many dont know, and those that do shrug. say better them than us, better there than here

god knows how many in a flash dec 26.......100k, 200k 450k??????

and we are so ugly, non caring, dismissive

yet...........

3000 one morning on 9/11 and we demand the sympathy of all, the right to take over the world, behave however extreme and out of control we want to be, because..............3000 of our people died

[molly]

1. I've been thinking about this all morning

my suggestion would be to leave Iraq and contribute that money for aid and relief. We would accomplish SO VERY much more.

[Swamp Rat]

2. Shut up! You terrarist-appeasin'-commie-librul-traytur!!! We're #1!!!

[seabeyond]

4. i have missed your

in your face rebel dude kinda self. thnak you for that. lol lol lol

[Swamp Rat]

8. THAT is a compliment! Thank you.

I lurked here DAILY for 3 years until mopaul posted a thread about rebels...

The first pic I created was this one of Rummy:

[seabeyond]

11. ah mopaul, yes i miss him too

see swamp, lol lol i am right there with you. looks kinda neat on a 43 year old woman, sittin in the panhandle of texas amongst all the conservatives and baptists, lol lol

i am back to listening to the 60's music, 60's rebel, more leather and biker in a totally classy way, wink

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Americans seem to be very self-centered

I have a friend in Australia who says that the tsunami news is still all over the papers, with many many followups. There's really not been that much about the tsnami here, and the paltry amount of money pledged by Bush is a disgrace.

So it doesn't seem at all surprising that most Americans have no clue what is going on in Iraq, or that so many people have been killed. I fear many would think that all the 100,000 were 'terrorists', or 'Muslims', which in their minds means the same thing. Neither one of these assumptions would be correct, but apparently most Americans have no idea of cultures other than their own.

[0007]

17. Half the fucking Americans think Tsunami is a country while

the half think thaat Sue Nami is a female terrorist.

[seabeyond]

35. you are funny in a very sad way

probably right, hm

[pnutchuck]

5. The world community has also showed it's true colors

I agree, the US has caused the deaths of so many Iraqi citizens and the only public outcry has been through the media reprimanding the Bush Administration, but no support for the poor Iraqis. Except for the Red Crescent, what other country has sent aide to the Iraqis on the scale the world has shown for the Tsunami victims?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that the Tsunami victims shouldn't receive all of the help the world can give. But if the world is truly outraged at our illegal war in Iraq, shouldn't they also come to the aid of those families who have lost their loved ones and their homes as well?

edit: I'm referring to the international press, not the US M$M

[Taxloss]

9. "Broke it, bought it"

The Tsunami was a sudden, single event, not an endless drip, drip, drip of death. So the aid there is not reported - it's a continual effort, not a sudden, massive, global effort.

It might help if the US didn't politicise aid agencies by linking their work to counter-insurgency, thus making them targets. Plus there's the fact that Iraq is simply too dangerous to operate in. And out of interest, what exactly do you think Margaret Hassan was doing there? Fishing? Get your facts straight.

[pnutchuck]

15. Excuse me if my facts seem a bit muddled for you.

But, I live in Paris, France and have more access to the international press than many Americans. Agreed, it is more dangerous to operate in Iraq and that the US has politicized all involvement there. However, it is also dangerous for aides workers to operate in the devestation of the Tsunami as they are at the most risk of contracting any potential outbreaks. If you have a link to the interim Iraqi government requesting aid for the thousands of refugees currently displaced from their homes by occupying forces, I would appreciate it.

[Taxloss]

19. London, UK, speaking here. Hello neighbour.

I don't see how it's the fault of the world community if the Iraqi interim authority hasn't requested aid. Aid operations certainly do take place in Iraq, or did, since most of the major agencies have pulled out because it is far too dangerous.

Also, it is far more cost-effective and sensible for aid agencies to use indigenous workers, not send in their own, wherever possible. In Iraq this became impossible because the agencies were being targeted. Being actively targeted by killers is vastly different situation to being in an area at risk from disease. In epidemic, it is poverty that is the real killer, not disease. That's why there aren't cholera, typhoid and diphtheria epidemics after Florida hurricanes. Those diseases are all easily preventable.

[pnutchuck]

20. I'm talking about global funding for displaces Iraqis

I see almost little to no reports of the amount of Iraqi deaths here in Paris.

I do not see advertisements by UNICEF to help the children of Iraq as I have seen for the Tsunami victims.

I have not been asked to donate any money to help the Iraqis as I have on almost every website including this one to help the Tsunami victims.

I don't see a massive global community organized for the health and safety of the Iraqi people even in the form of just donations to the existing organizations there.

[Taxloss]

21. What displaced Iraqis?

There aren't refugee camps ringing Iraq, and displaced persons inside the country can't be reached because it is too dangerous.

The Iraqi diaspora around the world has largely been abroad for decades and does not need help.

[pnutchuck]

22. Fallujans!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1115787

[Taxloss]

25. Precisely! Who are inside the country, and aid agencies

cannot get to them!!!!

The aid agencies have withdrawn, not for want of generosity but because IT IS TOO DANGEROUS!

[pnutchuck]

27. I still think that if the world were truly outraged at their deaths

their would be more of an effort to reign in American forces with international pressure. Call me idealistic, but I think "where there's a will, there's a way" and I see very little will on behalf of the Iraqi people other than a scattering of organizations.

The US has all but isolated this war from anyone not part of its coalition. And there in lies the tagedy, the rest of the world knows the human loss in Iraq and is not creating more of a public outcry for these atrocities. It is just too reminiscent of 1930's Germany and the isolation of their war machines. The world didn't speak out against it until it was too late.

[Taxloss]

30. Well, therre is intense domestic pressure against the hawks

in our government. At the grassroots, at least.

And of course the war was preceded by the biggest demonstration in British history, which isn't to be sniffed at.

[pnutchuck]

33. Yes, but where are the sanctions from the UN?

From other countries? The only thing this govt understands is money, and if they are put under economic pressure by the EU, maybe this war could be ended and rebuilding begin.

[Taxloss]

37. Sanctions won't happen.

Absolutely politically impossible. They would hurt the EU as much as the US. Besides, last time I checked the UK and Poland were members of the EU.

The US govt is perfectly happy to ignore global outrage. The freeps seem to revel in it. Only domestic outrage will make a difference, and I regret to say that domestic outrage is only likely to increase after a lot more American deaths. Sad but true.

[dummy-du1]

50. Yes

They won't happen, not in the UN for obvious reasons. Even if it would be possible to build a coalition outside of the UN, this would also lead to a global economic crisis, and even more people would suffer. One can only hope that more political world leaders come to the conclusion, that there must be a better alternative to the global leadership of the American Rogue Superpower, and they start working towards it.

[LynnTheDem]

47. US holds UN veto power. Any sanctions would just be vetoed. nt

[seabeyond]

32. help fellow iraqi's, try to make life better

get blown away. a tough situation for the iraqi's dont you think. their very own fellow people will blow them away it appears trying to move beyond the war to heal. the insugents dont want peace, they want to win the war. that means, the orginization to help, the iraq soldiers, the iraq police that are to bring stability are the ones being targeted for murder

[alfredo]

54. bush has done with the international community that it

has done with dissent here at home. They have been able to bully everyone into silence.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

45. I didn't say there aren't refugee camps in Iraq.

I said there aren't any outside Iraq.

Re-read my post.

[Taxloss]

51. Did you bother re-reading my post?

I'll save you the trouble.

"There aren't refugee camps ringing Iraq, and displaced persons inside the country can't be reached because it is too dangerous."

Ringing Iraq. Not in Iraq.

And then I say there are displaced people inside the country! But for some reason you think I said the opposite!

[nascarblue]

41. OK sorry, you seemed to be taking a feudalist position

"I don't see how it's the fault of the world community if the Iraqi interim authority hasn't requested aid. Aid operations certainly do take place in Iraq, or did, since most of the major agencies have pulled out because it is far too dangerous."

There you go playing armchair quarterback.

[Taxloss]

44. How, exactly, was that "armchair quarterbacking"?

And I think the ad hominem attack was unnecessary.

ON EDIT: Thank you for removing the attack, but you still haven't answered my question. I did nothing in that post but state facts.

[haktar]

12. What should the world do in Iraq ?

Maybe rebuilding Falluja and wait 'til its blown up again ?
Maybe get killed ?
Maybe providing security and do a little killing of our own ?
Start a local business so iraqis are employed ? - Hmmm - America could have done that long ago, but that would have reduced haliburtons profits.

Sorry guys - you broke it, you own it !

P.S. Great idea! let's start a Zyclon B production in iraq and export it to Guantanamo as "Freedom Gas"

Sorry Guys, but since nov 2nd, i'm a little cynic.

[seabeyond]

16. i am just talking a little baby step

just recognizing the facts of iraq. how we screwed it up, fucked the people and are continuing to, and how there isnt a chance in hell a single good thing will come of it with htis administration.

how many see the ribbons on cars in negativity.

i dont see anything of honor in that ribbon, i look at in disgust, i so want to speak to the person who displays a ribbon on their car. i want to speak out to the person that uses the word christian, christian family, chrisitian view, morality, yada yada yada

i want to yell out at the hypocrisy at every turn

[ashmanonar]

23. sorry, but who are you actually talking to?

if you're saying that the burden of iraq sits on all americans, then i say that you're far from the truth...the burden rests squarely on the "leadership" *chokechokegag* of the US, although there is some call for blame on the people who actually did vote for shrub...

just to clarify a point...

[haktar]

38. Sorry it wasn't meant personally.

While it shouldn't be against DUers I have to admit that i changed my behavior against americans.
Up unil november they had the benfit of the doubt. As the yellow rogue of Texas was (s)eletcted in 2000, only a quater of americans
votet for the moron.
But now my opinion is: in 2004 70 percent of americans didn't do anything against him, and while im sorry for the 30 percent of americans that didn't follow "Dem Fuehrer" like you Guys here in DU, America as a nation is still responsible.
Even if Diebold & ES&S changed a few million votes, still most americans didn't do anything against him.

BTW. the worst thing are not the death, neither from the tsunami nor the war in Iraq, peoples as a whole survive this,
But the Environement in Iraq Is poisoned for million of years, as it is in bosnia and everywhere depleted uranium was used.
And the trust from moslems against the west is also poisend for generations to come.


So singe americans can still have my respect (like you here at DU), America as a whole has compleatly lost it.

[ashmanonar]

39. heh

no apology needed, i wasn't taking offense...

incidentally, i agree that america has jumped the shark...

[LynnTheDem]

48. bush sure did an unbelievable job at turning world respect for us

into total world loathing. Hard to believe anyone could do so much damage in so short a time.

Don't hate us all, Haktar!

:hug:

[seabeyond]

49. shoot, i dont even like us right now, how about you, lol lol

this is what america is gonna have to get some time. basis of the thread. just do not see america the same as what, four years ago

[haktar]

53. I do not bite, so don't fear me.

The only american i blasted wass a "Canadian" guy, that admired "The Leader" and then didn't know what it was, when i told him, "ok lets discuss it with an Maximum Ice" (Canadian Beer)

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnutchuck]

18. How Wude!

Personal attacks are not nice. I am terribly upset at the mishandling of the Iraq war and the amount of deaths of innocent Iraqis. I thought coming to the DU was a way to be educated and to try to help each other understand these issues. I think it is a valid comparison to see the world support for the Tsunami victims and the lack thereof for the Iraqis.

I see almost little to no reports of the amount of Iraqi deaths here in Paris.

I do not see advertisements by UNICEF to help the children of Iraq as I have seen for the Tsunami victims.

I have not been asked to donate any money to help the Iraqis as I have on almost every website including this one to help the Tsunami victims.

I don't see a massive global community organized for the health and safety of the Iraqi people even in the form of just donations to the existing organizations there.

[seabeyond]

31. do you know a year ago 87 b

was allocated to take care of those displaced people, and for a zillion reasons that money isnt being used. does no good to get money for the displaced iraqi's they are not going to be helped by it. orginizations cant get in. the money cannot be given and infrastructure cant be created to take care of these people. it is the hell of battle zone.

people at the start of war, all around the world was organizing and trying to take care of the situation, but the way bush implemented the war and created the chaos and battle thru greed and corps,........the ship sailed in helping these people.

this is the ugly. as ugly as it gets. until the people see this is where we are at, then we wont be able to get beyond, beyond to the taking care of. gotta first have the step of recognizing where the problem is.

a long way to go.

but this board certainly has the compassion and empathy like none around the nation, for those suffering in iraq. they are informed, i am informed. this isnt a battle between you and i

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnutchuck]

36. First of all, I didn't start this thread, I simply agree with it

Second, it must be hell to live in a world where you are the smartest person in it and are so easily angered by someone you deem as "stupid"

Third, there are no right solutions to these problems, only debates here.

Fourth, if you actually take some time to read the other threads here, you might find that I am already having a much more civilized debate with another member on the same subject and prefer to engage in the more civilized debate.

Fifth, you might find yoga or breathing techniques to be helpful with controlling that anger towards us less worthy humans beings.

[dummy-du1]

46. You did not

Well, you didn't agree with this thread (or the first article in it), you shifted the blame instead.

I am already having a much more civilized debate...

God for you, I hate civilization, that's why I declared war on it...

[pnutchuck]

56. I did not shift the blame, I just took notice at the immediate

response of the World community for the victims of the Tsunami, and the lack of compassion for the Iraqi victims. I am aware that the US has created this monster and have fueled even more rebellions against occupying forces who could care less for their culture or their lives and named them insurgents in order to justify their deaths and the stealing of their natural resources.

I, unlike you, have not given up on civilization. We have a battle of greed on our hands, but there is still good in the world, and it is up to us to find peaceful solutions to combat these maniacs at the helm of our ship.

[ashmanonar]

28. "best military?"

i will disagree with you on your statement of the "best military"...Amerika has the best technology, perhaps...the biggest ships, the fastest planes, the most powerful bombs...but the real heart of a military, that the neocons seem to forget, is the infantry, the soldiers on the ground doing the real fighting, and our military treats them like dirt...the reason i don't think they're the best military is bc of the Abu Ghraib debacle, mainly (also many of the instances of our soldiers coming home sans a limb or two, and the military screws them over)...a truly disciplined soldier doesn't lose his temper and torture prisoners of war, albeit with orders from above...

besides, our military is at best a second-generation military; go to DNI and read up on 4th Generation Warfare, a concept put forward by John Boyd, an army colonel...its pretty revealing about how truly "modern" our military is...(Bill Lind has some insightful writings on the site, its pretty informative altogether...)

on edit: i'm honestly not trying to bash the soldiers here, but simply expressing my opinion on the military as a whole...i support our people (read: soldiers) wholeheartedly...i have a friend in the guard leaving for iraq pretty soon, and it sickens me to see how our people are treated when they return from iraq...besides, i'm pretty frightened for my friend josh, he's got a fiance here and i have a bad feeling about the future in iraq.

[dummy-du1]

43. True, I should have quoted it

I probably copied and pasted the line mentally from an ad or something.

Of course, having the "best army" isn't sufficient to win a war. The German Wehrmacht was also the best army of its time, but ultimately it also lost the war. If I look at the Iraqi disaster, I always think of this Sun Tsu quote:

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

The US planers of the war had no clue, who their enemy would be. It's mind boggling, how they seem to be surprised, that their enemy doesn't play by the rules, that is in this context, stand openly on the field to be killed by waves of air strikes. Instead we have a full blown guerrilla war here -- who could have thought of that? Actually most experts, that knew the history and the culture of the region, predicted exactly that well before the war started.

There are also deficiencies in the "know yourself" department. Every time US military personal looses it's temper and shoots on every Iraqi in sight or tortures and humiliates ordinary people like in Abu Ghraib, it shows the Iraqi population, that the insurgence is valid resistance against a cruel and violent occupying army. Support from the native population is vital for every guerrilla war, so obviously the Iraqi insurgents have found the greatest weakness in the "best military".

I don't think that the USA can win this war. The only question is how long it lasts and how many victims there will be. This also will determine which repercussions this will have for US power and how grave they will be.

[ashmanonar]

57. yea...

this war may be unwinnable...(i'm only using this as an analogy, btw) how did hercules defeat the hydra? by changing tactics!

one thing the ancient greek myths don't acknowledge is not just tactics, but full strategy...well, killing "terrorists" by dropping 2000 bombs into cities and towns doesn't work...how about cutting off their international support through foreign policy? how about making their cause unpopular among their own people by showing them as brutes and murderers?

military force is useless without the political wiles to be able to not use it...

on edit: fixed stupid grammar

[indigobusiness]

6. The Ugly American

has come home to roost.

[seabeyond]

7. yup, how much more ugly do we need to become

before we will recognize when we look in the mirror i wonder

[Minstrel Boy]

10. Not even 3,000. Citizens of dozens of other nations

are included in that number. About 30 of them Canadians.

[Taxloss]

26. More than 200 Brits, as I remember. Our biggest loss to

terrorists too.

[tnlefty]

13. It has truly blown my mind that sooo many of the bush*loving

nuts that I come into contact with are trying to display such concern for the tsunami victims, but have none whatsoever for the innocents that have been killed in Iraq. I suppose in the minds of the bush*bots one can't feel sorrow for the victims in both of these disasters.

[pnutchuck]

24. No, because Muslim=Terrorist to the Repukes! n/t

[Gloria]

29. I was thinking along the same lines last night.....

all the dead Iraqis are out of our sight. We try to stiff the tsunami victims....although I'm sure the big increase in help is somehow tied to how to make the most money off it...

I'm feeling so disgusted now. I wish I didn't have my RW mother around. If I could be alone with contact only with my few progressive friends I'd feel better.

We are a lost country, and progressives have NO LEADER. That makes it worse. Because all we face now is more cruelty from the bastards running the show.

[nascarblue]

40. Fat arrogant, ignorant red states.

It really is embarrassing to be an American right now.

[Fei Hu]

52. We have done wonderful things in Iraq

Just think of all the wonderful things we have done.
1. We have given them arms to kill each other with and to kill us with. Also so they can defend themselves against foreign aggressors.
2. We have given them tons of scrap iron to recycle.
3. We have given them medical aid and supplies to cure the people we blow up4. We have realigned their infrastructure.
4. We have provided them with explosives to blow up old buildings so Halliburton can build them new ones and charge them for it.
5. We have replaced their diet with REM and Burgers and Pizza.
God the list goes on and on. Ain't we great?

[Toucano]

55. But what about Lacy Peterson's baby!

We care about white children. It's the brown people we don't get excited about.