Some DUers saying Matsui death is suspicious.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

My pet DU peeve. There's almost always threads saying one thing or another is "suspicious" when there is no reason to think so. Makes the whole place look like a bunch of cranks.

Sorry, had to vent. Annoying as hell.

[democracyindanger]

1. you are not alone nt

[MADem]

2. He had a STEM CELL disease

Perhaps stem cell research might have helped him.

http://www.house.gov/matsui/
In recent months, Matsui had been battling Myelodysplastic Disorder (MDS), a rare stem cell disorder that causes an inability of the bone marrow to produce blood products, such as red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets. The disorder leaves the patient at a heightened susceptibility to illness and compromises the ability to fight illness when it occurs.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. Is it a congenital disease? Is it something you're born with?

It sounds like an immuno-deficiency kind of problem. If so, what virus finally got him?

When I get answers to the above, I'll decide whether the death was suspicious or not. After all, our CIA is now recruiting doctors to help keep tabs of the health & medical information of world leaders. Can't help ask why they would bother, unless to exploit the situation, if necessary. CIA has been known to destabilize opposition and steal elections. And we're suppose to be the good guys? Anyway, why wouldn't they do the same to our own senators and other political individuals?

[w4rma]

8. Don't forget that alot more folks had the flu last year than normal since

the Repukes did not get Americans enough flu vaccine. That means a higher chance for everyone to come down with the flu (and therefore pneumonia)

[Tacos al Carbon]

15. "Perhaps stem cell research might have helped him."

Only if he had access to a time machine, since any research that we are now engaging in or would have engaged in in recent years would bear fruit for human patients years (perhaps decades) down the road.

And "stem cell research" means research USING stem cells, NOT research to specifically cure stem cell disease.

[MADem]

30. We won't really know

But wouldn't it have been a pisser if some federally funded lab stumbled upon a significant and massively universal breakthrough early on. It doesn't often happen, but every now and again your moldy bread becomes penicillin, and Bob's yer uncle.

We could have had a year or two's worth of work under our belts, and working in conjunction with other countries' scientists, who knows what may have been accomplished? Unlikely, sure, but who ever thought that the weecowboy would ever become the pretzeldunce? Stranger things have happened....

[Tacos al Carbon]

36. No, it couldn't have happened that way

And any researcher or doctor who knows will tell youu the same. As I said, stem cell research is NOT research to stop stem cell disease and actual stem cell research is years from MAYBE becoming something useful for humans.

[ShaneGR]

39. Then why is a paralyzed woman in Korea now walking again?

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200411/kt2004112617575710440.htm

Story speaks for itself.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Nothing should be beyond suspicion these days.

That doesn't mean every death is murder, but it means for many that this bloody-handed administration has lost presumption of innocence.

[hollywood926]

4. It's my peeve, too....

I got into an argument not long ago because of this very thing. It drives me nuts! Someone on the General Discussion forum was ranting about a new bill being passed that would allow Bush to be able to send people into schools to drug our children without our permission. Of course, the bill said nothing remotely like this.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone.

[Ian David]

12. I think The New Freedom Health Initiative is real

If you have info refuting that the New Freedom Initiative creates a program to screen and medicate children for mental illness, please let me know.

I've been complaining about it for a while, and I hate to look like a cook if I'm wrong.

On the plus side, the freepers and their buddies at WorldNet Daily are raising hell about this. True or not, if we can get the freepers incensed about Bush doing this, it might not be a bad thing.

Thanks!

Meanwhile, I'll put together what links I have on the subject and put them in another post.

[neebob]

17. I hate to look like a cook,too -

especially when I'm not cooking!

[Ian David]

18. The New Freedom Initiative: Conspiracy or VaporScare?

OK, if anyone knows for a fact this is not a threat, please let me know.

Thanks!

PS: I think I just invented a new word, "VaporScare." I got the idea from "VaporWare," a software or computer product that never materializes. A VaporScare is a threat or conspiracy that never materializes.

---

ILLINOIS Passes Controversial Child Screening Plan
Psychiatric Times - Irvine,CA,USA
... year anniversary of the New Freedom report." But ... moved forward
with some mental health reform initiatives. ... Follows the Person--Rebalancing
Initiative." He also ...
<http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p041001a.html>


Here's a good excerpt from The Washington Dispatch:

Few people had any doubts that he would get it: it’s pretty much a given that Bush has yet to find a government intrusion that he doesn’t like. And there are more than enough members of his party in Congress perfectly willing to show their loyalty and nod approval while the president moves ahead on schemes that are blatantly unconstitutional and even downright Orwellian. Representative Ron Paul from Texas – one of the few men on the Hill who has rightfully earned the title of “statesman” – tried to pull funding for the initiative from the appropriations bill but his amendment was shot down on a vote of 93-315. 118 votes were from members of his own party: the one that claims it stands most for individual freedom and less government. They went on to approve what may be the worst intrusion yet into the personal lives of the American people



But they haven’t been the first, as Representative Paul pleaded from the House floor: “This is a dangerous idea and a notion that has been used by totalitarian societies throughout the ages.” He noted that we stand on the brink of emulating the old Soviet Union, where “people were not always convicted of crimes; but they were put in psychiatric hospitals to be retrained, to be conditioned to think differently and politically correct.”



For sure, Paul founded much of his distrust for forced mental screening not only on his legendary libertarianism, but also on the fact that the New Freedom Initiative based many of its recommendations on the Texas Medication Algorithm Project. A leery eye should have been cast on TMAP already after it was found that state officials in Pennsylvania had received kickbacks from drug companies that were involved in the study and earning revenue from the algorithms. It should also be worth noting that Zyprexa – one of the drugs used in the Texas program – is manufactured by Eli Lilly. It has been assumed that Zyprexa will be one of the newer range of anti-psychotic drugs to be used on schoolchildren. As the British Medical Journal discovered, Eli Lilly is one of several pharmaceutical firms that have contributed heavily to the election campaigns of George W. Bush and many others in the Republican party.



A very strong case can be made that President Bush, at the behest of his friends and donors from the drug industry, began the New Freedom Initiative and then pushed for it’s recommendations to be implemented as law… for the express purpose of mandating that millions of school children (and ultimately their parents) will be given mental health screenings. Government agencies would then have the authority to recommend that these children be put on whatever anti-depressant and anti-psychotic drugs (all of which are tremendously expensive). The pharmaceutical companies – one of the most powerful lobbying interests in Washington – that would be involved in the government program stand to make billions of dollars. And then there’s the potential that Ron Paul warned us about last week: giving the government the authority to determine what constitutes mental illness, letting the state decide on its own criteria who among us are obviously sick and in need of “treatment”.



There are massive conflicts of interest regarding this plan. The potential for corruption is inconceivable. That some people persist in believing that the President of the United States and most of the members of Congress are “conservatives” that can be trusted after they’ve committed to this is insanity. And the abuses that will no doubt come with giving government this kind of power are almost beyond the understanding of most Americans today, but think “national socialism” and you would be on the right track.
http://www.smdailyjournal.org/article.cfm?issue=12-31-04&storyID=38257

NO Child Left Un-medicated?
The New American - USA
... The administration’s "New Freedom Initiative" envisions "comprehensive
mental health screening for ‘consumers of all ages,’ including preschool
children ...
<http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/07-12-2004/insider/education.htm>

GEORGE Bush Has Got To Go
Men's News Daily - Guerneville,CA,USA
... The initiative began with ... in April 2002 of the New Freedom Commission
on ... go undiagnosed' and recommended comprehensive mental health screening
for 'consumers ...
<http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/m-n/morris/2004/morris062904.htm>

WHITE House May Be Planning Nationwide Program to Diagnose, Drug ...
The NewStandard - Syracuse,NY,USA
... White House is expected to announce a mental health and disability
initiative that recommends ... from findings by the President’s New
Freedom Commission on ...
<http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=614>

THIS Is The Government – How May We Help You ?
American Daily - Stow,OH,USA
... be unveiling a major mental health initiative that will ... screening
every citizen for mental illness. ... in Orwellian fashion, the New Freedom
Initiative (of course ...
<http://www.americandaily.com/article/2490>

BUSH to monitor population for mental disorders
Infoshop News - USA
... progress report entitled New Freedom Initiative (www.whitehouse ...
established the New Freedom Commission on ... recommended comprehensive
mental health screening for ...
<http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=04/06/21/7373813>

BUSH to screen population for mental illness
WorldNetDaily - Grants Pass,OR,USA
... to unveil next month a sweeping mental health initiative that recommends
screening for every ... The New Freedom Initiative, according to a progress
report ...
<http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39078>

SHEILA Lennon: Bush plans to screen whole US population for mental ...
KING5.com (subscription) - Seattle,WA,USA
... A sweeping mental health initiative will be unveiled by ... a March
2004 progress report entitled New Freedom Initiative.... ... Linkage screening] with treatment ...
<http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/ptech/weblog2/062204ccdrptechweblog.28cfe205f.html>

HOUSE Wants All Americans To Get Mental Exams?
Free Internet Press - New York,NY,USA
... every American screened as to his/her mental health AND "treated ...
OPPOSE THE "NEW FREEDOM'S INITIATIVE" AND/OR ANY OTHER FORM OF UNIVERSAL
PSYCH SCREENING. ...
<http://freeinternetpress.com/article.pl?sid=04/07/22/0436251&mode=thread>

NATIONAL Council on Disability Releases Latest Edition of NCD ...
U.S. Newswire (press release) - Washington,DC,USA
... My New Freedom Initiative, announced in February 2001, sets out a ...
implementing the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission on Mental
Health. ...
<http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=114-08042004>

GUEST OPINION: Mental health and world citizenship - the history ...
The Illinois Leader - IL,USA
... to screen population for mental illness," describing President Bush's
"New Freedom Initiative" that would have every citizen receive a mental
health screening. ...
<http://www.illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=18554>

IL Children's Mental Health Plan gives legislators headache
The Illinois Leader - IL,USA
... This new initiative if enacted, would make Illinois the first state
to ... The New Freedom Report recommends universal mental health screening
of all ...
<http://www.illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=18658>

FORCED mental screening hits roadblock in House
WorldNetDaily - Grants Pass,OR,USA
... recommends screening not only for children but eventually for every
American. The initiative came out of the New Freedom Commission on Mental
Health, which ...
<http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40365>

HHS Continues to Strengthen Umbrella of Protection from ...
U.S. Newswire (press release) - Washington,DC,USA
... and Disease Registry (ATSDR), with the assistance of the New York City
... MRC) is the medical component of President Bush's USA Freedom Corps
Initiative. ...
<http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=36054>

THE Psycho State
Lew Rockwell - Burlingame,CA,USA
A presidential initiative called The ?New Freedom Commission on Mental
Health? has issued a report recommending forced mental health screening
for every ...
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul203.html>

THX 1138: Reality takes a Turn Towards Fiction
Washington Dispatch - Stafford,Virginia,United States
... of his distrust for forced mental screening not only ... drug industry,
began the New Freedom Initiative and then ... parents) will be given mental
health screenings. ...
<http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_10093.shtml>

MENTAL Health Screening for Kids - Part II
TruthNews.com - USA
... a presidential initiative called the "New Freedom Commission on Mental
Health," which issued a report calling for the mandatory mental health
screening of ...
<http://www.truthnews.net/world/2004090149.htm>

KUDOS to the Leader for coverage of mental health screening ...
The Illinois Leader - IL,USA
... for the Leader's fine coverage of the mandatory mental health screening
legislative debacle ... How ironic that the President's New Freedom Initiative
spawned the ...
<http://www.illinoisleader.com/letters/lettersview.asp?c=19623>

MENTAL health screening plan due on Gov's desk Thursday
The Illinois Leader - IL,USA
... to obtain the federal monies attached the the New Freedom Commission.
... January the creation of the Children's Mental Health Screening Initiative
(CMHSI) which ...
<http://www.illinoisleader.com/news/newsview.asp?c=19894>

ON the way: a mandatory ‘Prozac nation'
Minnesota Daily - Minneapolis,MN,USA
... to the National Depression Screening Day on ... Since 1991, mental
health professionals have been encouraging ... Through the New Freedom
Initiative, President George W ...
<http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2004/09/29/10416>

HHS Awards $31 Million in Grants to 31 States to Help Individuals ...
PR Newswire (press release) - USA
... 3. Screening, assessment and transition from children's ... more information
on the New Freedom Initiative, visit the ... of Mental Health $499,649
$999,649 Family-to ...
<http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-05-2004/0002266564&EDATE=>
See all stories on this topic:
<http://news.google.com/news?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&persist=1&num=30&hl=en&client=google&ncl=http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl%3FACCT%3D109%26STORY%3D/www/story/10-05-2004/0002266564%26EDATE%3D>

SPEAK up now
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review - Pittsburgh,PA,USA
... readers' attention to the National Depression Screening Day on ...
7. Since 1991, mental health. ... Through the New Freedom Initiative,
President Bush is pushing for a ...
<http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/newssummary/s_258991.html>

DEPRESSION info is valuable
Village News Network - Fallbrook,CA,United States
... to the National Depression Screening Day on ... more than a decade,
mental health professionals have ... Through the New Freedom Initiative,
President Bush is pushing ...
<http://www.thevillagenewsnetwork.com/?template=00200&si=2598&displaytype=0>

OVER 5200 Concerned Adults Refuse to Comply with New Freedom ...
PR Leap (press release) - Chula Vista,CA,USA
... as agents of this wrong-headed government initiative. ... act as agents
to implement New Freedom recommendations for universal mental health screening
of our ...
<http://www.prleap.com/pr_1555.html>

HHS Continues to Strengthen Umbrella of Protection from ...
Onlypunjab.com - Punjab,India
... and Disease Registry (ATSDR), with the assistance of the New York City
... MRC) is the medical component of President Bush's USA Freedom Corps
Initiative. ...
<http://www.onlypunjab.com/real/fullstory-newsID-8442.html>

PLEASE Don't Come Back from the Moon
Always On - USA
... very important, however, this initiative is straight ... Mental health
screening is discussed in-depth in the ... As an example, the New Freedom
Commission recommends ...
<http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=6711_0_5_0_C>

WHITE House May Be Planning Nationwide Program to Diagnose, Drug ...
The NewStandard - Syracuse,NY,USA
... White House is expected to announce a mental health and disability
initiative that recommends ... from findings by the President's New Freedom
Commission on ...
<http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=614>

BILL to Screen, Medicate Kids May Hit Senate This Week
The NewStandard - Syracuse,NY,USA
... result of the New Freedom Initiative's recommendations ... mental health
advocacy group Mind Freedom. ... million for states to implement mental
health screening. ...
<http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1234>

REP. Paul offers language to require parental consent for ...
WorldNetDaily - Grants Pass,OR,USA
... was proposed by the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, which
President Bush established in 2002. The New Freedom Initiative recommends
screening not only ...
<http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41511>

Government documents at:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/newfreedom/toc-2004.html
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/cmh/childreport.htm


PDF Version of New Freedom Initiative: The 2004 Progress Report

No Child Left Un-medicated
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/07-12-2004/insider/education.htm

The President's New Freedom Initiative
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/newfreedom/chapter4-2004.html

See also:
Bush to screen population for mental illness
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39078

New Mental Health Initiative Forwards Psychiatry's Brave New World ...
http://www.mentalhealthcommission.gov/reports/FinalReport/FullReport.htm

No Child Left Un-medicated? - The New American - July 12, 2004
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/07-12-2004/insider/education.htm

The model for the New Freedom initiative is the TMAP, which stands for the Texas
Medication Algorithm Project
http://www.mhmr.state.tx.us/centraloffice/medicaldirector/TMAPtoc.html
http://www.mhmr.state.tx.us/centraloffice/medicaldirector/TMAPover.html


See also:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/newfreedom/toc-2004.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/freedominitiative/freedominitiative.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/newfreedom/newfreedom-report-2004.pdf


*The Conscientious Objector Policy Act-- Michigan law allows doctors,
pharmacists and insurers to refuse treatment to homosexuals*

Michigan Preparing To Let Doctors Refuse To Treat Gays
http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/04/042204MichMed.htm

Michigan Legislature
http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=2003-HB-5006

Catholic World News : Michigan House approves conscience clause
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=29129

The Vagina Dialogues : Scared for your life?
http://ec.gayalliance.org/articles/000400.shtml


Check these scary parts of the Texas Republican Platform:

They want to keep the FDA from banning dangeous nutritional supplements, and...

AIDS/HIV-
We should, however, love them enough to tell them the truth: Behavior has
personal and social consequences.
It should be legally reported in the same manner as any communicable disease.
We oppose the needle exchange and bleach kit programs.

Immunizations – The Party believes all adult citizens should have the legally
protected right to conscientiously choose which vaccines are administered to
themselves or their minor children without penalty or discrimination for
refusing a vaccine.

Disabillities-
The Party supports amendment of the Americans with Disabilities Act to exclude
from its definition those persons with infectious diseases, substance
addiction, learning disabilities, behavior disorders, homosexual practices and
mental stress.

Health Care and Nutritional Supplements – We deplore any efforts to mandate that
supplements be on a prescription–only basis, and we oppose any efforts to remove
vitamins and other nutritional supplements from public sale. We support the
rights of all Texas adults to have the unfettered choice to use nutritional and
dietary supplement products. We strongly favor legislation recognizing
legitimate alternative health care choices.


AIDS / HIV – The Party recognizes that the preventable diseases of AIDS and HIV
infection represent a threat to human health. We view with compassion all
people infected with HIV. We call for appropriate levels of research to find a
cure for the disease and ask that the government give full disclosure of the
causes. However, because AIDS represents such a severe threat to both the
health and economic well–being of our citizens, we insist that the epidemic be
de–politicized and that as a society, we take all appropriate steps to protect
our citizens from this epidemic. All people, no matter what disease they may
contract, are worthy of deep respect as humans. We should, however, love them
enough to tell them the truth: Behavior has personal and social consequences.
We call upon the United States Public Health Service and all states to declare
HIV a “dangerous, yet preventable, infectious, communicable disease.” It should
be legally reported in the same manner as any communicable disease. We oppose
the needle exchange and bleach kit programs. We urge the return to the
requirement of blood testing in order to obtain a marriage license with the
previous reporting responsibilities to prevent the spread of dangerous,
infectious, and communicable diseases.


Americans with Disabilities Act – The Party supports amendment of the Americans
with Disabilities Act to exclude from its definition those persons with
infectious diseases, substance addiction, learning disabilities, behavior
disorders, homosexual practices and mental stress, thereby reducing abuse of
the Act.

Immunizations – The Party believes all adult citizens should have the legally
protected right to conscientiously choose which vaccines are administered to
themselves or their minor children without penalty or discrimination for
refusing a vaccine. We oppose any medical record computer database or registry
that would store personal identifiable records on citizens without their
written consent.

Bill to Screen, Medicate Kids May Hit Senate This Week Be afraid. Be VERY
afraid.
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1234

by Christopher Getzan (bio)
*Legislation to test children for "mental health disorders" and then provide
them commercial drugs -- which would be highly controversial if people knew
about it -- could reach Congress during this month's lame duck session.*

Nov 15 - Funding for a controversial Bush administration plan to submit the
nation's school children to mental health testing and drug treatment may end up
reaching the Senate floor this week, as GOP congressional leaders look to clear
the legislative slate in order to set the table for George W. Bush's second
term.

[depakid]

42. Imressive set of links BUT

No one here has EVER answered the simple question- and it's been posed repeatedly-

Who is going to pay for the expensive medications? The feds- Ha! The states? They barely have the money to keep their most basic medical services funded. Insurers- maybe.. in some few cases- but not bloody likely. They're already doing double digit premium increases every year and do all they can to dissuade people from utilizing services, especially psychiatric services.

So who's going to pay for a project of this scale? Or even one a tenth of the scale?

[candy]

6. Forgive my ignorance but who is Matsui? n/t

[hollywood926]

10. A California congressman...n/t

[candy]

14. Thanks! n/t

[Rockerdem]

13. Matsui was one of the nicest spokespersons who we had on TV

He was always firm without being unpleasant. Smiled a lot, even when making a tough point. Always a treat to watch.

RIP for a good guy.

[Ian David]

7. THANK YOU!!

This is why I hate when people here start talking about alien spacecraft flying over Iran and oil drilling causing the Tsunamis in Asia.

When a REAL conspiracy comes along, it makes us look like the DUers that cried wolf.

Then again, a bunch of idiot freepers believe in UFOs, too.

[slutticus]

9. It's a virus here.

If it isn't meteors or H-bombs starting tsunamis, it's missle pods on jumbo jets.

Arrgggghhhhhhh!!!!! :argh:

[Red State Rebel]

11. Thank you!

It's embarrassing the lengths that some people reach.

[Straight Shooter]

16. God forbid we be paranoid about this administration.

I'm not taking one position or another, because I don't know the man or the facts of his health history. But he was a major proponent of Social Security, quite the advocate, to my understanding. I really dislike the way all the Republican buttered toast lands butter side up.

[shance]

19. Sorry to hear exploring potential wrongdoing is "annoying" to you

I have yet to see any one person claim this was foul play, however I am growing tired of the individuals who refuse to look at the realities and potential motivations for people in important positions, (like one such Matsui) to be harmed and/or killed.

Its a very real occurence.

How arrogant of those of you to think it wouldn't be a significant reality, even moreso because in fact many deny its possibility?

The harm inflicted on good leaders is a reality that many Americans like you have denied for a long time. I dont need to remind you (but I will), as a result of the denial and cowardice, many of our leaders have been killed in vain.

Lets look at Social Security for a minute.

Social Security has been a program in the scope of extremist Republicans and probably PNACers for decades who have wanted to see it destroyed. I can remember over ten years ago talking with Republicans who were obsessed with doing away with the program. Their reasons were as ridiculous, callous, lacking large scope critical thinking, and simplistic then, just as they are now.

Many Republicans have been foaming at the mouth to see a wonderful program like Social Security be destroyed and again, not saying this was murder, (yet), however, it obviously doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize what better way to steamroll ahead with their plan than to make sure the leading opposition is silenced.

Think how that also affects those working Matsui him as well. That may very well shut down the opposition. Coinky dink? You certainly are inclined to believe it and that may be true, however, dont you try and shove your belief down my throat and tell me its true when you don't know any more than I do or anyone else does. A quashing of the opposition would be the plan of those who would engage in such an act of course, and Matsui was the leader of the opposition. And here you are telling us its annoying to be looking into this and/or opening some honest discussion on the situation. Do you know how many Democratic leaders have died at pivotal moments in their leadership? Is that annoying to you as well?

We need to let our Democratic leaders know that we care and that we will protect them. Wouldnt you want the same back up?

JFK, MLK, Bobby Kennedy, Malcom X all of which have NEVER seen full justice.

Why? because we havent demanded it.

Every American should be demanding justice because it affects every single one of us when we choose to live a lie. We have been living a lot of lies, its time we start demanding the truth. Our leaders deserve as much. They can not do their job if they have to fear rabid dogs are at their doors all the time.

When our good leaders have the GUTS to put themselves on the line, and there are those who have the audacity to deny the realities and the truth of such evil people who wouldn't blink an eye at this kind of thing (if they knew they could get away with it), not to mention the overall suspiciousness, "coincidence" and timeliness of such deaths, "you" not only enable and give a green light to those who enact such horrific acts, you put our other good leaders at risk, you inhibit other good leaders from coming forward, and you make any death that has occured, a death in vain.

For those of you who call yourselves Dems but are not willing to defend and/or question potential events that harm other Democrats and progressives, then go ahead and leave the Party. If you are not going to protect and defend the legacies of those leaders who have died and protect those WHO ARE LIVING, then just move on. You certainly are not doing anything to defend our leaders and our party. You are helping the Republicans by quashing any legitimate discussion. Of course some of you are probably freepers and are hear to try and block healthy discussion.

Need I say anything more other than to think if this was a *Republican* who died rather suddenly and happened to be the head of a fight against a forefront issue.

Why do we allow ourselves to be treated in such an abusive way and allow such a double standard to continue to infect our parties and our Democracy?

[joanski01]

20. I'm with you all the way, shance.

I had been thinking that maybe the Repukes thought we needed a reminder to roll over and behave.

[shance]

25. Thank you Joanski***

Sometimes maintaining an open discussion, not to mention an open mind and perspective is very difficult and apparently threatening for some.

[jus_the_facts]

21. Let's see...2 stolen elections....9/11......hmmmm......

.....NOTHING IS BEYOND SUSPECT ANYMORE....those who DON'T question EVERYTHING as suspicious these days and then start threads that dump all over people who have the common sense to question EVERYTHING....might as well just stick thy head up thy neighbors ass and STFU! :grr:

SOOOOOOOOORRY..had to VENT! :eyes:

[Mike Niendorff]

22. I'm suspicious of all the suspicion :)

Seriously, when we really started digging into the 9/11 questions (back in 2002) DU suddenly experienced an influx of freepers who tried to post the most outlandish nonsense they could find in order to derail discussions and in order to cast the site as a whole into as bad a light as possible. Looks to me like either DU has suddenly started advertising on Art Bell, or, much more likely, the same tactic is still being employed by our RW opponents. Personally, I'd like to see a minor housecleaning done here to get rid of the people who insist on flooding the site with blind speculation and "OMFG!!!" posts, but seeing as I'm not Skinner I doubt that will be happening anytime soon :) And, all things considered, that's probably just as well, because my freep-dar is pretty much on a hair-trigger, and half the site would probably freak out if someone like me ever got access to the tombstone controls :)


MDN

[shance]

23. Looking at possibilities and realities is your definition of *suspicious*?

Are you saying we should cut off any so called "suspicious" discussions by your definition of course, and focus on perhaps more stepfordized discussions like, lets see, the latest in successful housekeeping tips?

Is that what we call being an American these days?

I know Im being sarchastic, but when someone would like to stop legitimate discussion and/or is suspicious of such dialog, I tend to believe it is more about the individual trying to cease a discussion than to allow it to unfold the way it is supposed to.

That's my opinion.

[Mike Niendorff]

29. of course not.

I was well involved in the 9/11 discussions here, and I am a firm believer in the "follow the evidence" approach to any topic, regardless of what label people throw at the results. But, that being said, posting pure paranoid speculation without any supporting evidence whatsoever is NOT the same thing, and I think it does a disservice to those here at DU who have worked hard to make this site a place where people can come to get reliable and verifiable information. Plus, I know for a fact that there are RWers who deliberately exploit this tendency when and where they can (seventhson, for example, did exactly this on the 9/11 threads for nearly 2 years). The people who do this aren't interested in legitimate inquiry, they are interested in *preventing* legitimate inquiry. They know the difference, and so should we.


MDN

[Minstrel Boy]

35. actually, about seventhson

He wasn't a freeper. He was a victim of identity theft. His account was hacked election night.

I have it on unimpeachable authority. Actually, several unimpeachable authorities.

[foo_bar]

37. using one's username as a password is an internet death sentence

Any or all of his posts may have been forgeries given that lapse in common sense, all the more peculiarly in light of his professed paranoia.

[bloom]

32. I'm suspicious of people who aren't suspicious :) ...eom

[LeftyMom]

24. It's stupid

Matsui was the kind of centrist milqetoast Democrat Republicans count on for token opposition. I can't remember a thing he did to really stand up and fight, and he's represented my town for as long as I can remember. Saying they wanted him dead is dumb and it means people ignore us when underhanded shit really is going down.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democracyindanger]

27. Shhh

Facts get in the way of wild-ass conspiracy theorizing.

Welcome to DU! Don't let General Discussion scare you away...;)

[sendero]

28. Not only that..

.... but every, and I mean EVERY news story that comes out is a Rovian distraction tactic. The man would have to literally control a huge percentage of the news rooms in America. Puhleasse.

There is a fine line between suspicion and paranoia.

Here is a link about this disease. It's pretty cut and dried as far as I'm concerned....

http://www.leukemia-lymphoma.org/all_page?item_id=55442

[GRLMGC]

31. I completely agree

It's really annoying

.

[Isere]

33. Some DUers need to listen to this:

http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

It will have you tapping your toes while you tip your tinfoil hat.

I promise.

[NMDemDist2]

34. Matsui died?? and now Shirley Chisolm too?? crap n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. Re: "Some DUers saying Matsui death is suspicious."

Gee, that's a big surprise. Every death is a criminal conspiracy, you know. :)

(This whole thing is made even more stupid by the fact that his replacement appointee will likely be more liberal than he ever was.)

[Ian David]

40. Christopher Reeve's Death Suspicious!

Some DUers believe Christopher Reeve's death to be a Republican plot.

This outspoken advocate of stemcell research died of mysterious, unexplained causes.

How very convenient for the "pro-fetus" Republicans that he died when he did!




















NOT!!!!!

[slay]

41. I find this post very suspicious!

What are we gonna do, start censoring people? Ignore the posts you don't like. We aint no news organization ya know. There are admins, mods, as well as a DU Front Page for those that like "structure". :P

[Ian David]

43. There's a big difference between censorship and ridicule

[leesa]

44. So, of course YOU create a header that says just that. Hmmmm...