The caste system in India

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5442635

India's "untouchables" gather dead

NAGAPATTINAM, India (Reuters) - They are the "untouchables"; the lowest of the low in India's ancient caste system. snip

Caste still plays a defining role in much of Indian society.

Over 16 percent of India's billion plus people are dalits. Despite laws banning caste discrimination, they are still
routinely abused, mistreated and even killed.

They do the jobs others won't -- they clean toilets, they collect garbage, they skin cows.

For Mohan, illiterate, uneducated and low caste, the only way to get a government job and the security and pension
that come with it, was as a municipal sanitation worker.

For some Indians, untouchables are less than human.

more

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Thanks Nnnholhi.

I've been trying to point out that there is something out of whack with the Indians that I encounter stateside. They definitely have a very condescending attitude towards other minorities. Intelligent, certainly, but definitely they do come across as if they're entitled to disregard even the most fundamental humanitarian courtesies. More redneck than the rednecks, in some cases.

[NNN0LHI]

2. Your welcome. If you know is the caste system based solely on...

...how dark ones skin is? I can't figure that out from the article. I remember being taught about the caste system in high school, but my impression back then was that it had been done away with a long time ago. So I didn't pay too much attention then. Thanks in advance if you know.

Don

[theorist]

3. Maybe an Indian DUer can clear this up, but I'll share what I know.

My boss is a Brahman from southern India, and from what he's told me, it's more about grooming and dress these days. Just as you know someone is poor based on the cleanliness of their clothing, how their hair is kept, etc.

It's also very much geographical. The top universities will generally be populated by Indians from higher caste heritages. This is not completely true these days, but what the story describes is likely more related to this point than any other. The poor castes are still poor. I don't think it has anything to do with skin color, though.

[izzie]

5. I learned it was on your birth record.

You are just born into it. Caste not class.

[MXMLLN]

13. Caste is based on one's physical heritage.

It is widely held that the caste system was started by the Aryan invaders from the north and that it was designed to consolidate power and wealth among the invading tribes.

Caste discrimination continues in India today, though it is declared illegal in the Indian constitution.

Most of the Indians you interact with in America will be from the higher castes ... as they are the only ones who would be able to afford to immigrate or travel.

To a large extent, these Indians have become accustomed to occupying a position of privilege in society.

Caste System


The most significant feature of the Hindu social system is what is called 'caste' under which the people are divided into various groups. The status of an individual in the society is determined by the caste in which he is born. A Hindu is born in a caste and he dies as a member of that caste. There is no Hindu without a caste and being bound by caste from birth to death, he becomes subject to social regulation and tradition of the caste over which he has no control.

A person born in a caste carries the name of that caste as a part of his surname < 1 >. The division of the people into various castes is said to be eternal so that no act of virtue or vice in this earthly life is enough to make any change in the caste or social status of a man or woman. The caste system of India has generally been regarded as an absurd, unhealthy social phenomenon, without parallel elsewhere in the world.

On the top of the caste hierarchy is the Brahman and at the bottom is the Untouchable (Dalit) and in between are the Kshatriya, the Vashya, and the Sudra in a descending order. According to the Hindu scriptures, the Brahmans have been sprung from the mouth of Brahma (Hindu god), the Kshatriyas from his arms, the Vashyas from his thigh and the Sudras from his feet.

Broadly, Hindus are divided into two groups: caste Hindus (also varna Hindus) and low-caste Hindus. The former includes the Brahman, the Kshatriya and the Vashya who are the descendants of the fair-skinned Aryan invaders and the latter includes the Sudras, who are dark in skin and are the offspring of the original inhabitants of India. In this group is also included the most unfortunate Dalit who is outcaste because he falls outside the original fourfold groupings. He is untouchable because his touch is bound to pollute the other castes and that is why he must always remain at a sufficient distance from them.

The fourfold division is not the end of the caste system; the community is subdivided into thousands of sub-castes (gotras). According to a survey undertaken by the Anthropological Survey of India during 1985-92, those who are called Hindu are divided among 2,800 unique communities. The so-called low-caste Hindus are officially divided into three broad groups, namely Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes. According to this survey, these groups are subdivided into 450, 461, and 766 distinct communities respectively < 2 >.

The great distinctions of caste are to be maintained not only in the earthly life, but also after death. According to Markandaya Purana, after death, the virtuous Brahman goes to the abode of Brahma, the good Kshatriya to that of Indra, the worthy Vashya to that of the Maruts, and the dutiful Sudra to that of the Gandharvas < 3 >. Apparently, the Untouchable (Dalit) does not deserve any place in any heaven, may be because of his untouchability.


Origin of the Caste System


'Caste' is a Portuguese word, used by the Portuguese as equivalent of 'varna' (a Sanskrit word, which means 'colour'). They used this word to designate the peculiar system of religious and social distinction which they observed among those who are called Hindu. Caste originally was a colour-bar, and in India, as later in America, served at first to separate free men from slaves. Gradually, the Brahmans made it a religiously ordained social fabric for the Hindu society. Manu, a Brahman, gave in his book, Dharma shastra, details about the caste system.

When the fair-skinned Aryans invaded India, about two thousand years before Jesus Christ (pbuh), they defeated the dark-skinned indigenous people, Dravidians, who were the founder of the Indian Civilization. The Aryans subjugated them, learnt many things from them and built up another civilization which came to be known as the Ganges Valley or Hindu Civilization. To perpetuate the enslavement of the original inhabitants of India, the Aryans created the caste system, and thereby excluded them from their own society with the name of Sudra (which means slave).

In the words of S.W. Theertha, "When the ancient priests set themselves up as an exclusive caste of Brahmans in order to establish their self-assumed superiority, they had to inflict degradation on all other Hindus (i.e., original Indians) and press them down to various layers of subordination. They had to keep the people divided, disunited, weak and degraded, to deny them learning, refinement and opportunities of advancement, and permanently and unalterably to tie them down to a low status in society. The Hindu social organization based on hereditary castes was evolved by the Brahmans with the above object and was enforced on the people with the help of foreign conquerors."< 4 >


Caste Determines Duty


In Hindu community, the basic duty of every individual is determined by his caste. The Brahman is the rightful possessor of the Veda and is the chief of the whole creation. He has the exclusive right to become a priest. It is through his benevolence that other mortals enjoy life.

The Khsatriya is described as the dispenser of justice, particularly as the one whose duty it is to punish law-breakers; he exercises the civil power and to his tender mercies the Brahmans could hand over law- breakers. He has to see that the various castes attend to their prescribed duties; but in doing this work he must abide by the decisions of the Brahmans.

The Vashya comprises the merchant, the agriculturist, and the keeper of cattle. His chief work is keeping cattle.

The Sudra has been created to serve the other three castes (i.e., the fair-skinned Aryans). "He is spoken of as a slave, his property, as well as his person, being at the disposal of his master." < 5 >

The Untouchable (Dalit) is to perform the most unpleasant tasks: cleaning lavatories, carrying night soil, skinning carcasses and making footwear.


Social, Economic and Other Aspects


The social, economic and other aspects of life are controlled by the caste regulation. Caste differences are largely invoked while arranging marriages and eating together. For rural Indians, castes shape almost every aspect of their lives: the food they eat and who can cook it; how they bathe; the colour of their clothes; the length of a sari (cloth worn by a woman); how the dhoti (cloth worn by a Hindu man) is tied; which way a man's moustaches are trained and whether he can carry an umbrella. Everything is determined by caste and nothing is left to chance.

Caste regulations formulated by Manu are discriminatory in nature; they favour the Aryan Hindus and discriminate against the so-called low-caste Hindus. In teaching the duties of the 1ow-caste people concerning marriage, Manu declares that a man aged thirty may marry a girl of twelve, and a man of twenty-four years may marry a girl of eight. He, however, is very particular about the marriage regulations of Brahmans. A Brahman must avoid marrying a girl whose family has produced no sons, that which has thick hair on the body, or is afflicted with hereditary disease. Let him choose for his wife a girl whose form has no defect, who has an agreeable manner, who walks gracefully like a young elephant, and whose body has exquisite softness < 6 >.

Punishment for offence is also determined by discriminatory caste regulations. A crime against a man of his own caste by a Sudra is venial offence; but a similar offence committed against a man belonging to so- called higher caste is proportionately greater. If a Sudra through pride dares to give instructions to priests concerning their duty, hot oil will be dropped into his mouth and ears. A high-caste man having intercourse with a Sudra woman is to be banished; a Sudra having intercourse with a woman of the superior castes is to be put to death. Whatever a Brahman's offence, the king must on no account put him to death; he may, at the most, banish him, allowing him to take his property with him. Further, in case of wrongdoing against him, a Brahman need not approach the civil court, he is free to take vengeance upon the offender < 7 >.

[manic expression]

48. OK, one big thing to consider...

The "Aryan-Invasion Theory" is completely false. Frederick Max Muller was the "scholar" who came up with it. He did this to make it seem that the world was created in 4004 BCE. Even though EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE points to the absolute contrary to this "theory", it has been accepted by the west for a long time (it is getting better, as people are seeing how it is a falsehood). There was never an Aryan Invasion.
The Caste System does not pertain to race. The system is also very much gone except for some of the northern states (a friend who recently visited India told me this). It only really has an effect on present economic standings.
The Caste System is a feudal system which is dying out. The West is completely hypocritical to insult it as much as they do, as Europe was feudal for a very long time, greedily built their empires on the backs and at the expense of the rest of the world, caused many of the problems we see in parts of the world today and actually still have many facets of the feudal system (monarchies, former noble families are wealthy).
The Caste System is an abomination of the Hindu philosophy. The belief that entities have individual and integral duties in this world and in their societies was taken literally, and so a system was set up to try and create this system externally, while Dharma (duty) should have been left solely to karma. Over time, it became more and more rigid, as well as more fractured. It should be noted that it did create a fairly harmonious and well-run society inside the varnas, but the outcastes were treated like poisonous rats. This is changing now, and I think it is a very good thing that the Caste System has begun to end.

[2plus2]

135. dude...

my Wife is Indian, and I've always wondered about this caste business but never wanted to go there without knowing much about. Thanks for the ammo!

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. I don't know if color is an issue in India. But I do know education is.

The caste system, however, almost guarantees that you won't receive the education you need to transcend the level you're at from birth.

[blondeatlast]

99. Heritage, ethnicity, religion, etc, etc, etc.

I suggest you educate yourselves a bit before you go diving into a subject you know very little about.

[Must_B_Free]

120. Wow what a rude answer to a great DUer

I hardly think he did anything but tentatively reflect on what he had heard. There were no proclamations made.

NNN0LHI is truly one of the greatest DU contributers.

[NNN0LHI]

122. Don't worry about it Must_B_Free. It takes all kinds

Thanks a lot though. Take care and see you later.

Don

[KlatooBNikto]

4. That is not the caste system, per se but the pervasive lack of

courtesy I have encountered even among Indians supposedly among the elite in India. If one is perceived to be poor this discourtesy gets magnified.That is probably what you see in the behavior of Indians stateside. If they see a person, say a black person for instance, and they know that the person is poor he will get treated worse than a black person who holds power.

The same shit, different folks, as I say.

[LynnTheDem]

8. And all muslims are uncivilized

according to anotehr post you made.

Seems to be a pattern here.

[burythehatchet]

19. Thanks for saying that Lynn

Its amazing that some people actually have the balls to call themselves liberals or progressives

[KlatooBNikto]

21. You have missed the gist of my posts by a mile.

[Bridget Burke]

11. Well, I'm glad to live in the perfect society!

No class differences, no poverty, no religious nutcases trying to run the country.

USA! USA!

[fujiyama]

17. That's a pretty ridiculous post

I've seen similar sentiment among white people. I may as well assume that because some white people I've met made racist comments about African Americans in poverty, that most whites have a "pervasive lack of courtesy".

[fujiyama]

6. I don't know what Indians you're talking to

but certainly not all are like that.

I was born in India and my family and I certainly don't have these beliefs and we're part of the "higher" caste.

I just want to make it clear that there are some ass holes out there, but most aren't like that.

It goes back hundreds of years and it's a system difficult to get rid of. It's much more pronounced and prevelant among rural areas and the uneducated (though unfortunately some that are formally educated also have these beliefs).

Part of it is based on race. Often those of darker skin are of lower castes. Some claim this is because of the Aryan invasion and the domination of those in the north. So I'd say the origins are both racial and based on class (and wealth).

Officially (theoretically), the caste system has been eliminated by the government of India and is stated in their Constitution I believe. Also various affirimative action type programs have been set aside at various universities (quotas were set aside for the minimum number of lower caste people at universities). Unfortunately old habits die hard, so it does play a part in society - like in marriage. Since arranged marriages are pretty common among many Indians (though once again more common among rural people), many are urged to marry within a caste.

I'd say the problem of casteism, similar to racism and Jim Crow here in the US, is that it has led to a cycle of poverty...but unlike the US, India is such an ancient civilization, and the traditions and prejudices die harder. That's why many in the lower castes (and going all the way down to the untouchables) have ended up doing jobs that were seen as "unclean" like burying the dead, in charge of waste disposal, etc.

Another problem is in certain states, corrupt politicians use caste as a political tool. Sort of like how republicans use say gay marriage as a wedge issue, the RW parties there may use caste prejudice....But it's a lot more violent. That's why ethnic violence is a problem in certain states (often the poorer ones).

Many of the notions of caste are dying in the urban areas. As many become more westernized, I'd say they are more open regarding relationships. There is more socializing with those of other castes, so it's not quite as rigid as it once was.

I don't think the caste system is necessarily peculiar to India or Hinduism, though the disparity is probably more pronounced there than anywhere else. I've heard Japan also has a caste system, though I'm not sure of it's hierarchy.

[JI7]

7. yes, it doesn't have to do with caste but mostly about money

that's why you will see some wealthy indians such in the medical profession supporting republicans because of things like limits on malpractice lawsuits.

the republicans are smart and have reached out to these rich indians. i'm sure many like the tax breaks also. they probably don't care for politics much but just vote in whatever way they themselves gain financially.

the good news is that most indians still vote democratic by a large majority and the ones who tend to be politically active tend to be liberal leaning mostly.

[JackintheGreen]

9. How they know...

But this still doesn't answer the question: how do high caste Indians identify the lower castes?

Answer: A rose by any other name...Names - like Chowdury, Patel, Narayan, Pillay - traditionally are caste identifiers. I cannot say for sure that this is still the case 100% of the time, but Indians with the last name Pillay come from what was 50 years ago a high caste family (correct me if I'm wrong, but Pillay is a Brahmin name, I think). SInce caste was made constitutionally illegal in 1947, 'Pillay' isn't supposed to mean 'high caste' anymore, but as fujiyama pointed out, old habits die hard.

In rural areas and small towns people just know. In places where everybody knows everybody else's business it is MUCH harder to escape family history. Even more than caste, I think, people were born into jatis - which are basically family professions: I'm a barber 'cuz my father was a barber 'cuz his father was a barber ad infinitum. That's not so much the case now (where industrialization often removes the need for certain traditional professions), but TOO LATE! You're family history is already ingrained into "village life."

Corrections or clarifications?

[fujiyama]

16. Yeah you have a pretty good idea

It's a good thing you brought up the point of jatis. Industrialization also removes various other restrictions depending on the caste and jati.

For example, while it used to be the Vaisha (I think this is the merchant class) that was heavilly dominant in business, now Brahmins (earlier seen as the preistly class) also gets MBAs.

I'd say that it becomes less well defined as society develops. Though, as a result of cyclical poverty, the lower castes will likely end up with the worst jobs. Fortunately there have been some developments and there has been progress (especially because the government made efforts with affirmative action programs).

India had a lower caste prime minister several years ago, and my guess is they have some in the current cabinet as well. After all, the current PM is a Sikh...so I don't think on the part of the federal/national government there is as much casteism. Though there are problems with individual state governments (like Bihar).

[blondeatlast]

100. Pretty close to my understanding of it.

I'm married to a Punjab, traditionally the "warrior" caste, but that hardly describes him.

[2plus2]

136. that's true..

that much I've heard from my father-in-law (Indian) on how it goes.

[Democracy Died 2004]

10. More redneck than redneck? Oh the irony.

My wife who is Indian descent thinks all Americans are rednecks. I tend to agree with her.

[LWolf]

12. I have an Indian student.

The daughter of 2 doctors. I'm not sure if she was born here or in India, but she's lived here all her life, and makes 2 or 3 trips to India a year. She speaks 3 languages. She is PROFOUNDLY intellectually gifted; her understanding of concepts goes well beyond most adults I know, and she's only 10. She's also one of the kindest, most compassionate, patient, and tolerant human beings that I've ever met. Not surprisingly, she doesn't have many friends. Everyone admires and respects her, but nobody relates. She gets lonely.

She gets all of that empathy and tolerance from her mother, who is also an incredibly caring woman. A parent who stops by the classroom to see how I'm doing, and give me a hug and thanks on a regular basis. This is my 4th and final year with this young lady, and I'd like to just retire when I send her on in June.

If the average American child came with half of her sensitivity, caring, and appreciation for others, America would be a better place.

[NNN0LHI]

14. My doctor is Indian

An if I don't like a doctor I am not afraid to find another one. This guy is the best I have ever found. Been seeing him over 15 years. He appears to truly care about his patients. Its not just the money with him. Its more. Wish there were more like him. Thanks for the story about your student.

Don

[burythehatchet]

20. thanks for that story

makes me sad for her.

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. You say that as if it's impossible to find an American black or hispanic

student with the same abilities. My experiences are based not on what I see of children, but of ALL the experiences I have had with adult Indians. And it's a good thing that I don't judge them based on their children.

My experience with young Indian children was not so blessed. I carpooled for an Indian woman, and admittedly, the parents were bright and the kids appeared to understand academics higher than kids their own age. But, this could also be a reflection of the fact that one of their parents was a teacher. Anyway, for one solid year, I got to hear out of the mouth of these kids, in the shrillest voices possible, "HEEEEE, HAAAA, POO-POO, PEE-PEE, HAHAHAHAHA" continously.

My impression of them was that they were so repressed at home that they couldn't wait to release once they got into the car of someone they knew would not be in a position to discipline them. We moved out of that community that summer.

[LWolf]

30. Actually, I do NOT say that "as if it's impossible"

to find another ethnic person with the same abilities. The thread is not about other ethnicities; it is about the Indian caste system. Your post is not about other ethnicities, it is about painting one ethnicity, Indians, with a broad brush:

've been trying to point out that there is something out of whack with the Indians that I encounter stateside. They definitely have a very condescending attitude towards other minorities. Intelligent, certainly, but definitely they do come across as if they're entitled to disregard even the most fundamental humanitarian courtesies.

My interpretation? You are presenting the idea that the caste system leads to institutionalized racism on the part of Indians as a whole, based on your observations of Indians here in the U.S..

Ironically, that presentation places you in the same boat; discrimination or prejudice of a group based on race or ethnicity.

I say what I say to point out that your characterization of Indians as referenced above is faulty. You can find examples of the best and worst of human behavior in every race/ethnicity/gender/political persuasion/etc.. That doesn't excuse the wholesale painting of an entire race or ethnic group with the brush of "as if they're entitled to disregard even the most fundamental humanitarian courtesies." I'm pointing out the fundamental courtesy absent from this statement.

You've used the phrase "as if" to attribute your own perspectives to others here; to me, and to an entire race of people. I take exception to that. Speak for yourself; don't speak for me.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. "Indians that I've encountered" is not broad-brush. It specifically

identifies, er..."Indians that I have encountered." And considering the extreme experiences I have had with 100% of the encounters, I'm willing to take the hit of being called prejudiced. Especially considering that the next life I save may be my own.

[MsTryska]

32. I'm Indian. And you've encountered me.

do i count in that 100% figure?


i cna't remember being overtly racist, or even covertly for that matter.

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. You're kidding, right?

The internet is color-blind. But, now that you mention it, wasn't it you who stated that Indians are upset because Hispanics (latinos) weren't required to speak proper English?

Whether it was you, or someone you were exchanging posts with, the comment brought up a misnomer that could only be attributed to prejudice. Latin Americans are going to come here in droves because of their geographic proximity. (They also are an important consumer block for the U.S., so, to ignore them is insane.) There will be no end to the number of first generation latinos who come into this country because of the geographic location. Even in that core, a good number are already bi-lingual, but this is a fact that seems to get lost by those who aren't. Yet, apparently, Indians are peeved because they feel they're required to speak proper English, and latinos are not? I'm mystified why English would be a difficult language for Indians to master considering the centuries of British rule. I'd expect to find more Indians speaking proper English, because of it, the way that I'm pleasantly surprised to find Phillipinos speaking proper Spanish.

[fujiyama]

51. You seem to harbor some racist tendancies

It's quite clear you have something against people from the Indian subcontinent.

So, why don't I say that I believe Americans on the whole are racist imperialists. After all, a majority of this nation voted for Bush. I love painting broad brushes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. I would never impose my beliefs on anyone else. I'm just expressing

my personal views, based on my experiences. If you wish to paint America with a broad brush, I say, paint away.

[MsTryska]

57. I know I specifically believe

one should be fluent in the language of the nation one resides in.


I would never be so bold as to assume it's a national characteristic tho, so i think you are mistaken.


Actually assuming national characteristics on the basis of interaction with a handful of members of said nationality strikes me as i dunno.....racist? ignorant perhaps? bigoted is another good word for it.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MsTryska]

68. You've got issues and

you need to work those issues out.


i'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with Indians.


I've had bad experiences with Indians too. And there is no way in hell you would ever catch me saying all indian people are perfect.


But what it boils down to this:


I could care less what others do. that's on them. I care more about my own behavior, and chalk up their behavior to their own issues.


this "Your race", "All Indians", "All Black people, blue people, yellow people" crap is so 20th century.


relax, relate and release..

[The Backlash Cometh]

96. If you were right, the south wouldn't have gone for Bush.

[blondeatlast]

102. Substitute "African American" for "your race" in your post ,

then get back to us.

[The Backlash Cometh]

124. I hope I will be able to word this in a way that the moderators accept.

blondeatlast, I have been, in other posts which may have been deleted, trying to tell you that we need to listen to one another. I have volunteered my own perceptions that my own race has been guilty of discriminating againt African Americans, so your comment is off tangent.

Try to break that wall that all discussion of race tension is bad. It's not bad. It's a necessary first step to create understanding of the problems we face.

[blondeatlast]

131. Perhaps you should start from a place beyond stereotyping.

We disagree on the issue, does that mean all DUers are bad?

And I do, indeed, take this thread VERY personally, as my husband is South Asian.

[The Backlash Cometh]

132. We will agree to disagree.

No point in pursuing this further as it's obvious that we on DU are not ready to talk about these issues.

[AngryAmish]

72. Why Indians would find english hard?

Hindi (I beleive the most common spoken language) is a non-Indo-European language. English is Indo-European. Like Chinese it has different grammer structure etc. That is why it is hard.

Spanish is an Indo-European language and is thus easier to learn.

BUT, it is also my understanding that Sansrit, the priestly language, is an Indo-European language.

Folks, please feel free to correct me because I am not at all sure that any or all of this is correct.

[MsTryska]

75. yes - Sanskrit is the mother of the Indo-European languages

if i recall my little maps correctly.


I would think learning English would be easy for Spanish speakers.

It shouldn't be that difficult for Indians tho, because of the several 100 years of British occupation.

[The Backlash Cometh]

97. English is difficult for Spanish speakers because Spanish has a

WYSIWYG phonetic basis. English, and in particular American English, has different sounds for the same letters or combination of letters. Also, American English is based on idioms. Very confusing unless you understand the history of those idioms.

And, then, of course, there's the prejudice factor. No matter how much hispanics try, they will always be viewed as inferior because prejudice is at the core of the criticism.

And then, of course, we're talking about first generation latinos, because the reality is that second generation Americans speak just fine.

[MsTryska]

125. so we should not conduct business in English because it's a difficult

language to learn?



it's i'm sure a hundred times more difficult for Japanese or say romanians because there is really no common thread whatsoever with english.


i'm afraid some of your comments still reflectback on your own perceptions and feelings about hispanic inferiority.

[The Backlash Cometh]

133. Now it's you that are stereotyping.

I have said many times over, the hispanics that I know are bilingual. That means they speak both English and Spanish. But apparently the only people that you and others can focus on are the first generation, generally poor immigrants who come to this country. I explained to you why it's difficult for them to learn English, but never said it was impossible.

[MsTryska]

139. Good. Because saying it is impossible,

and that everything should change, so that non-native speakers never have to learn the language of the country they reside in, would be denigrating to those people abilitiy and intelligence, imo.



and i used hispanics, primarily because you are using them as the basis of your arguments.

[The Backlash Cometh]

140. That's what you call a straw man argument.

You created a statement that I never made. I never said that non English speakers could not, nor should not speak English. That was your contribution. And then you went about destroying the argument.

Straw-man for you to burn.

Here's the real argument: What I do have a problem with is when people don't realize or understand that there will ALWAYS be NEW, poor immigrants coming from latin America. So there will always be NEW faces in America learning English. But people will still judge them as if they have been here before and not take into account that they are first generational.

[MsTryska]

141. then what exactly are you arguing?

because i could have sworn what you were arguing is that ALL Indians hate and look down on ALL hispanics.



in answer to your "real argument": yes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

142. No. That's not what I said at all.

But it's been interesting to see how people jumped to sweeping conclusions.

My experiences were personal, in every sense of the word. I dealt with a specific strata of people. They were not poor, and they were not uneducated.

That's all, because the moderators have warned me. I'll only post to try to stop you from redefining my terms.

[MsTryska]

143. to quote you from post #98

Never, never did I put it all together until I came on this newsgroup


and discovered from postings of other DUers that Indians had a thing about latinos. That's when I started putting my experiences together and realized that there may have been a reason behind the way I was treated.

[The Backlash Cometh]

144. To quote Spangle from the Florida forum:

The moderators allowed him/her to get away with this, so I assume it's approved:

"You mentioned that lakeland is trying to recruit Indidans because of the tech sector.. I'm assuming you are meaning Indians as in from India, and not American Indians. The Indians I know are not to happy with this hispanics. It's about the language issue. Since they also come from an area that doesn't speak english as a first language, they don't understand how come the spanish speakers can get special treatment. They learned english, shouldn't everyone else? Hence, the problem there. And they are upset with the Democrats for "helping" the hispanics over this issue. Helping minoritys as a whole, doesn't seem to be a problem. The language issue.. OUCH!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=145&topic_id=2767#2818

There, Ms. Tryska, is the smoking gun. Where I only had a vague suspicion that something was off by the consistent interaction I had with Indians, it was not until Spangle posted that insightful comment that it was all put together for me. And I thank him/her very much for it.

I'll just add, that my experiences are personal and do not reflect what I believe about ALL Indians. In fact, I suspect I would have very much in common with MOST Indians from your country.

[ZombieNixon]

112. Sanskrit is the mother of the Indic branch of the Indo-European family.

The descent worked something like this:

Proto-IE>>Indo-Iranian>>Indic>>Sanksrit>>Pakrit, Pali>>Modern North Indian languages.

Sanskrit was very close to the origian protolanguage and included a variet of identical features including an SOV clause order and highly complex inflectional case system. As a result, may PIE roots are plainly evident in North Indian words. For example:

Hindi aaj "day" << PIE *agh "day"
Bengali bhasha "language, speech" << PIE *bhas, *bhaos, *bhås "speech" (from the verb) *bha- "to speak"
Hindi bolna "to speak," Bolo! "Speak! << same as above.

[AngryAmish]

115. I think you know much more than I on this topic

And I appreciate the correction.

[ZombieNixon]

113. Hindi is Indo-European.

Most of its vocabulary comes from Sanskrit, however, it contains a lot of loan words from Arabic (a Semitic language) by way of Persian (another IE language). It has a different grammar structure, true. Basic clause order is Subject-Object-Verb. It contains a few aspect particles like ko and na, which is a completely alien concept in English. It uses nounc cases, of whihc the only example in English is the possessive "'s." I speak Hindi, and I don't find it that hard.

[bloodyjack]

117. This post was unnecessary

[blondeatlast]

101. May I be the first to complement you on your skill

at covering your posterior?

Based on your standards, I can state that all members of DU that I've ENCOUNTERED are rollicking hypocrites.

[Orangepeel]

22. I work with many Indians, and that's not my experience

most of the Indians I work with have more progressive, more democratic views and attitudes than the white Americans I work with. There are some condescending assholes, but in my experience, there aren't any more than in any other group.

For example, I've never seen any of my Indian colleagues be rude or disrespectful to the cleaning staff or the cafeteria workers, almost all of whom are Black or Hispanic (hmm... what's that say about our own society?)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. you are so right,,,the 3 indians you know are exactly the

sample size you need to judge a billion peopel worldwide.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Three? There were four, and apparently it was enough to upset

the moderator so the experiences must have been shocking. They certainly were to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. being racist upsets progressives...its just who we are...

and fyi i did not alert on you.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. I don't recall saying that you did alert the moderator. And it wouldn't

have mattered. It's painful for me to see it in print and it's just as well that it served its purpose, then disappeared. I believe the moderator did me a favor.

BTW, I may believe in gay rights, free choice and Affirmative Action, but consider myself a social pragmatist, not a liberal. That's because I know that things are not always easily separated into two opposing categories. For example, I know that racism directed at me, will come from more than just white American males. Just like blacks in America have experienced it from my people. Latinos, from time to time have discriminated against blacks. There's reports on housing experiences to document it.

I respect their observations. And I would understand their anger if they directed it to me. The burden would be on me to show them that not all latinos are like that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. and apparantly racism towards indians comes from latinos as well

quite lovely really!

[The Backlash Cometh]

98. Never, never did I put it all together until I came on this newsgroup

and discovered from postings of other DUers that Indians had a thing about latinos. That's when I started putting my experiences together and realized that there may have been a reason behind the way I was treated.

[The Backlash Cometh]

114. Would like to expand on that point:

The moderator continues to eliminate posts with points which I feel are important to get across. So I'll try to reword this in another way:

First, I think that minorities, especially in the Dem party, need to pay attention to how they perceive each other and improve on their relationship to one another. The first step is to listen to each other. Not everything that is said can be easily dismissed as racist comments. Some bad things do happen.

Second, I'll be the first to admit that latinos have on occassion discriminated against blacks. I can't say they've done it to Indians, because I've never experienced it. My views are reactive, not proactive. And they are mine alone. However, as for latinos and blacks, I have read in California where a study was made to determine if blacks were being denied housing, and I'm ashamed to say that some of the ones who were discriminating against them were latinos. Mostly, immigrant latinos who were looking for people of their own village or provinces to fill in the vacant apartments. I am not naive to believe this is isolated. For that reason, I fully expect to deal with some blow-back from black Americans. I accept it, and if they are wary of me because of their other experiences, I feel it's my responsibility to let them know that I don't agree with what they've been put through.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

126. well since the moderators keep removing your posts

i cant point out the racism in them. but you basically say, you had problems with 4 indians, so you had to move out of an indian neighbour and avoid all indians....

[The Backlash Cometh]

134. Never said it was an Indian neighborhood.

We left because the medical care in the area was horrible.

[blondeatlast]

104. Why, lioness, the utter NERVE of you.

Expecting progressives to be "above" racism and stereotyping? How dare you?

Please note the sarcasm.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

127. i know...can you imagine that?

[blondeatlast]

103. Thank you. My husband is South Asian, and he's the most respectful

person I've ever met with ANYONE. He treats the cleaning people with the same degree of respect that he treats the CEO.

This thread is effing sickening.

[Orangepeel]

37. the best thing is to avoid "them"?

Oh, my.

I have no doubt that you have encountered plenty of obnoxious Indians. There are plenty of obnoxious people in all ethnic groups. But, I wonder how the above message would sound if it were about another ethnic group?

"I knew a Mexican who ___________, therefore, the best thing is to avoid Mexicans."

"I knew a Black person who ___________, therefore, the best thing is to avoid Blacks."

I will state emphatically, to anyone who will listen, that I know or have encountered many Indians -- as friends, colleagues, bosses, employees, teachers, and service providers -- and have had the opportunity to observe many Indians in situations where they have dealt with people lower in status then themselves (e.g., janitorial staff, waiters, students), and I can certainly attest that not all Indians in the United States follow the negative stereotypes found throughout this thread.

on edit: My condolences, Backlash, on the loss of your mother. I'm hardly an expert on how prejudices are formed, but I can imagine a situation where one's grief at the loss of a loved one manifested itself so strongly in anger against a person that caused the love one pain that it spread to others sharing similar characteristics.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[fujiyama]

52. You obviously don't get it

A majority of Latinos and Arabs I've met throughout my life have been anti Semitic. A majority of blacks I've met are homophobic. A majority of whites I've met are racist and supportive of Bush.

So, maybe I should "keep my distance" from Arabs, Latinos, whites, and Jews.

If you are going to judge about a billion people on the basis of where their from, then you obviously aren't too bright. Stereotypes are pretty foolish and you seem to have developed the same foolish stereotypes as those you are speaking of.

So grow up. Maybe you've just had the bad luck of meeting a few idiots but you're still dumb enough to be judging about a billion people based on them.

[JI7]

53. especially since they voted for a Party headed by a minority

Sonia Gandhi who is Christian and not even of Indian descent and the guy who became Prime Minister is a Sikh. their President is also a Muslim.

[THUNDER HANDS]

23. I've noticed that too

very limited, in my experience, but I notice a slight "I'm better than you" attitude that I don't get from other ethnic groups.

[billyskank]

25. That's probably because

those individuals think they are of the brahminical class. They think this makes them better than other people. This is very bad.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Perhaps it is because many Indians speak very correct English.

--the ones you'll meet in the USA, at least. And they are highly educated.

They won't grovel before the white man. Good for them.

[fujiyama]

38. My limited experience with Jews and other white people

showed a slight "I'm better than you" attitude I don't get from other ethnic groups...

How do the stereotypes sound?

[blondeatlast]

95. Not all of them, not by a long shot. I'm married to a Punjab.

That's like saying all Muslims/Arabs/etc. in this country proudly support OBL.

In other words, bushit.

[IronLionZion]

129. those would be the rich Republican ones

I'm Indian. and I've definitely seen more racism from "my own people" than from any white redneck. It has to do with a lot of things mainly: old money, religion, shade of skin color (seriously), education, and so on. Light-brown Indians look down on dark-brown Indians. And of course a lot of them hate me for being born in America.

But the middle-class and working-class Democratic Indians tend to be much nicer and friendlier. These guys give a lot more money to the temple than we give to the church. And they are always willing to help out their fellow human beings like with the recent tsunami.

[jmatthan]

15. The caste system is a working union classification

which has been misinterpreted and misused for power politics.

In Finland, only a member of the electricians union can do wiring work - that is a form of discrimination as many may be better qualified than an union memeber to do the wiring work.

Also it was common to discriminate against women who wanted to enter priesthood. In one case in our area, because the local Bishop objected to women being priests, although they are civil servants in Finnish Society, they were scrupulously avoided till quite recently and the senior bishop retired.

In India you have the priesthood, the business community, the army community, and the menial jobs community. There are many subcastes with each of these communities and discrimination is practised even at each caste level, not just across inter-castes.

This was made illegal at the time of independence, but like slavery it has taken a long long time to get rid of.

In our part of India the Harijans are looked up to as they are far more competent to work with their hands than the priesthood who chant Sanskrit verses with great skill!! (Just joking)

It will take at least three to four generations more to get rid of the caste system in India. Fort instance, it was at one time illegal for a lower caste to cast even a shadow in the path of a higher caste - those shadows have all vanished.

It will also need the firm resolve of the Governments at both the Centre and the State level, as well as a mixing of castes in the law enforcement and judiciary.

Inter caste marriage has also become quite common in the urban areas where students meet at colleges.

I still remember the huge furore when I married a Finn in the mid-sixties!!!

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. the caste system works in india much like the race/class system works

in the US.


my grandparents and parents married out of caste.

[billyskank]

24. The Caste System or Varnashram as it is properly known

In the system of Varnashram, people are divided into four social groups or "Varnas": Brahmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. Brahmanas are the intelligent people, who generally become priests. Kshatriyas are the royal class, and are generally warriors or administrators. Vaishyas are the mercantile class; these people are natural businessmen. Shudras are the labourer class.

It will not surprise you to hear that Varnashram has become corrupted. People are apt to think that caste is inherited from one's parents: if my parents are brahmanas, then I am a brahmana. It is not actually supposed to be this way. In truth, one's varna is determined simply by ones inherent eligibility for certain kinds of work. If one exhibits the qualities of a businessman (an aptitude for making lots of money, for example) then one is a vaishya.

The "outcaste" is one born outside this system of Varnashram. This means all of us outside of India. But really this doesn't matter; maybe in some far off time long since past, Varnashram was working properly. But in truth, all people today are outcastes, even those who think they have good birth. So really they should just get over themselves.

It is not difficult to see how a mistaken understanding of Varnashram Dharma can nourish fascistic thinking. You should read some of Arundhati Roy's writing about the BJP political party of India to get an insight into this.

[demwing]

54. Thank you

In this thread I've heard Indian perspectives, Western perspectives, academic, social, and political perspectives, but yours if the first (and only) answer I read that nailed the truth as I was taught by an actual Hindu Sanyassi.

Varna - Means color, but does not refer to skin color. More like the "What color is your parachute" concept, akin to one's temperment or abiity.

Brahman -- Priests and teachers: Corresponds to the head of the social body. The thinkers and speakers.

Ksatriya -- Warriors and Politicians: Corresponds to the arms of the social body, the protectors of society.

Vaisa -- Merchant and Farmers: Corresponds to the torso of the social body, the buyers and sellers of food, clothing, and other goods.

Sudra -- Manual Laborers: Corresponds to the legs of the social body, the strength that supports the entire society.

No one varna is superior to any other, just as no one body part can exist without full cooperation from all the others. Still, the various parts have specific jobs based on ability, not birth. For example, it would be a waste if Noam Chomsky had to dig ditches and was never given a voice. That may happen in a so-called caste system, but never in varasrama.

Ashrama -

The four stages of life:

Brahmacharya, the stage where one is a student

Grihastha, The stage where one buikds a household and a business, nmarries, etc

Vanaprastha, the stage where one retires from business

Sanyasa, optional stage for becoming a renounced monk

As anyone can see, there is nothing in the varnasrama structure that segregates or separates by race or ethnicity.

It is not an unnatural system imposed upon society, but an attempt to explain the stages we go through in life and the differing temperments and abilities displayed by different personality types. The object is not to box someone in to a position based on their birth, but to respect all contributions to the social order.

Unfortunately, varnasrama is corrupted today in India. Regardless, one can see that the divisions are natural, for we have the same such divisions in our "classless" American society.

[MsTryska]

34. You know one good thing i can say about the caste system?

it does sort of give everybody in a given society a place, and a position in helping that society move along from day to day.


after all soembody has to do the shitwork.



bear in mind, i'm of indian descent, and come from people that essentially converted to christianity to escape the caste system. I'm just looking ont he flipside for a minute.

[ChairOne]

35. "bear in mind, i'm of indian descent"...

... of course you are... One of the massa's?

Spoke like an excellent representative of the defunct CSA. Thank god for the massa's - so us coloreds would know where we's sposed to be and wut we's sposed to be doin! Lordy allmighy I be a touch confused if'n I had's to finds my own way... Thank the good lord for the massa!

I love DUers.

[MsTryska]

36. What?

what are you talking about?

[bloodyjack]

55. If she's descended from Christians who had converted to escape

the confines of the caste system, her ancestors were probably of lower caste.

way to take things out of context!

[MsTryska]

59. Thanks.

yeah whoever that was totally took what i was saying out of context.


one thing i find fascinating about the caste system is thast it literally earmarks a place for every inhabitant of a society, and cubbyholes them into a livelihood (whether that's good or bad).


Ie - There are castes for everything from priests and merchants to beggars, robbers, pickpockets and ear-wax cleaners.


So in a way, circumstance doesn't drive you to these things, birth order does. I find it fascinating that this cubbyholing, almost bears no judgments in the place of all things, both good and bad in a society. They just are, and somebody has to fill that role.


Of course the bad things include the stratification of society, and the inability to break the cycle and be something other than what your were born into.

[Must_B_Free]

43. What she really demonstrates is that

people will not easily give up their advantage...

If you think the caste system will disappear, you probably aren't thinking very hard.

Just wait for India's 911. Someone will drive a motorized rickshaw into a temple or something to reinforce the advantage of the upper crusts, and they'll call everyone who doesn't believe the official strory a disgruntled conspiracist.

[ChairOne]

45. And they'll also put out a pamphlet about....

... how the untouchables/brahmin (sp?) relationship was so very friendly and loving.... lol

[blondeatlast]

105. Israel/Palestine isn't the only bloody I/P hell in the world.

South Asians have as much to fear from OBL as we in the US do; and he's pretty apt to go after them as soon as he's done with the US.

We are shocked at the killing of innocent civilians; it's hardly unheard of in that part of the world.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[ChairOne]

69. And defending one's lack of linguistic ability is the hallmark of what?

lol

In any case, my reading comprehension abilities are just fine (pace my hangover) - relative to others' at least - honest - my GRE scores say so!

So you have no worries of being mis-understood: your Huxley-esque complimenting of the cruel, mean-spirited, and inhumane caste system came through loud and clear.

"I'm sooooo glad I'm a Harijan. It's much better to be an Harijan than a Brahman because my life is so simple, and well-ordered. It must be positively beastly to be a Kshatriya, what with all the fighting and complexities of property management they have to put up with. It's far, far better to be a simple Harijan - after all I provide an essential service to the larger society - the shitwork - and that is a gratification that no other class will know."

LOL

sheesh.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[ChairOne]

73. Wow - holy false alternatives batman!

lol - there's no reason, a priori, why I couldn't be both brilliant *and* a jackass....

And yes, you most certainly did defend you're (sic) lack of knowledge of the English language, and your defense was based on the best-defense-is-a-good-offense line of thought. Cute, but played out - at least be subtle about for christsakes...

Anyhoo, I must sadly admit that in fact I have no special abilities to divine anyone's intentions over, under, or through a net. Except my own, of course, but that's a little bit different. InSTEAD (ooh! I can capitalize parts of words too!) all I can work with are people's words - as ill-used, ill-meant, and ill-understood as they might be.

Your words constitute a Huxley-style defense of the caste system (are you actually familiar with his most famous work?). Along with your particular defense of it, that system is as anathema to ideals like freedom, fairness, and justice as any that has ever existed.

So if I'm a jackass for failing to see the virtues of the caste system, so be it. Would that more Indians were jackasses of the same sort.

But just don't call me a Vaishya! I'm soooooo glad I'm not a Vaishya! LOL - way to go Huxley.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[ChairOne]

76. lol - and what, pray tell, is falling back on post count a hallmark of?

bye Aldous.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[Bridget Burke]

82. Typing is a low-caste accomplishment.

Especially for women of a certain age. They thought that ignorance of the keyboard would keep them out of the pink-collar ghetto.

Of course, ignorance of the keyboard retarded their ability to use a PC, as well.

[MsTryska]

83. You're acting quite the Ugly American right now.

it's great that you harbor all this moral indignation for the downtrodden of other cultures, but you're getting to the point where you being pretty damn racist.



take it down a notch.



it's always struck me that those with the most indignance over the plight of others tend to have their values rooted in a profoundly elitist, oftentimes racist belief system.


it's that sort of thinking that stuck a bunch of disadvantaged blackfolk in projects on the shit-side of town.

[blondeatlast]

106. Very uncool to correct another's grammar on DU.

Especially when you have no idea "about what you are talking."

I had to make sure I wrote it to YOUR standards.

[Must_B_Free]

44. I have read that both sides have oppressed the other

at one time or another, over the cycles of 1000s of years.

The Aryans would presumably be Persian or from thereabouts, Iraq perhaps.

Also I have read that the invaders corupted or wrote themselves into the vedas and that Buddhism itself comes from a reawakening of the traditional Hindu values and was part of overcoming the oppression at one time.

I am somewhat enthralled with Indian culture - it is quite an ancient contiguous culture from the oral tradition to today. I suspect we could talk about 25,000 years of Hindu culture, perhaps more.

I have worked with different Indians for 10 years now and the one thing I keep thinking is "Same as America"... Diversity is the operative word. with 26 states and 26 state languages, there is tremendous diversity in India, as in the US.

I find them generally progressive and balanced in an earthy sense, but those appreciations are slipping away for the more recent grads, who I find are attracted to a materialistic western lifestyle.

We have a stilted view in America because we are probably meeting some of the most successful intelligent people whpo could afford to come to the US.

The medicine I find somewhat advanced in terms of the concept of balance, something that we don't appreciate because it doesn't sell pills. I like to use Ayurvedic soap and had my friend pick me up some Neem (natural anti bacterial) last week from India as well.

I also am interested in Indias Holys, Sadhus, Nagas etc. I find that most desis in the US say that those guys are hucksters, but I tend to believe that if an ascetic holds his arm up in the air for 12 years he's serious and he's probably learned something.

The Beatles went to India and Mahariji Mahesh tried to peg Yoko to which John said "Feh".

Bob weir stole half Jerry Garcias ashes and the rest of the grateful; dead sprinkled them on notes that they floated down the Ganges.

Smoking marijuana is a traditional ritual of the holis; "The breath of Shiva was shared"

here is an EXCELLENT gallery of India's holy men:
http://www.asianart.com/exhibitions/sadhus/index.html

[ZombieNixon]

46. Indian DUer to the rescue!

I'm a second generation Indian-American (as in my parents came here straight from India). My family belong the Brahmin caste, which in practical terms means that all my ancestors were either priests or lawyers (go figure). As a family, we're very liberal, so my grandparents, though they have gone through all the caste intitation rights (most notably the uppanayanam, like the Hindu version of the Bar Mitzvah), they rather routinely associate with "lower" castes. Their attitude is one of "even though we get perks, the caste system is bullshit."

Historically speaking, the caste system was in fact a measure of one's skin color, though after 3000 years in the tropics, even a Norwegian would turn brown, so it's no longer a good gauge of caste. This is witnessed by my family's great variety of skin color:

Father's father: fairly dark
Father's mother: pink and white
Father: fairly dark
Mother's father: fairly dark, but not as much as my dad
Mother's mother: so dark she wore black as a teenager in order to make her skin look lighter until her mother told her to snap out of it.
Mother: kind of dark, though much lighter than Dad
Moi: slightly darker than Mom

Why do untouchables clean up the dead? Why do Mexican guest workers pick grapes in the hot sun for pennies a day? It's the job no one else wants to do.

For some Indians, yes, dalit's are lower than dirt. I think those people are no better than men who beat their wives; they're the scum of the Earth,

But to suggest that all Indians are racist because of some outdated religious order is like suggesting that all Christians are racists because KKK members are all Protestant.

Caste discrimination is far more prevalent in rural villages where traditional priests have much more power than the government. In the cities, society is far more integrated.

[NNN0LHI]

47. Thank you. My minimal recollection from high school was that it was...

...based on the color of ones skin. But as I stated earlier I did not pay too much attention then because of the way it was presented and that it was taught during a history class so I had presumed the caste system was no longer used in India as slavery is no longer condoned here. Thank you and everyone else's input into this subject. I learned a lot here.

Don

[blondeatlast]

108. Keep in mind as well how textbooks reflected the world betyond our borders

then, too.

Everything is far more complex than I learned, and since I can gauge your age to some degree, I suspect the same is true of you (I'm 45).

[manic expression]

49. From what I know...

The Caste System was never about race at all.

There never was an Aryan Invasion, and there is no shortage of evidence to prove this.

Besides that, I agree with just about everything you said.

[ZombieNixon]

50. The "Aryan Invasion" is officially a "disputed theory"

I for one, don't believe that there was an "invasion" per se. Linguistic and cultural evidence is strongly in favor of an so-called "Indo-European" culture (read "horsemen from the Central Asian plains") mixing with the indigenous Dravidian civilization. I think it was a series of migrations over a very long period of time. The Hitlerian "invasion" doesn't hold water.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

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[demwing]

56. You don't need a system to tell you the color of someone's skin

Skin color is self evident.

You do need a system to identify one's apptitudes, just as in America we have white collar workers and blue collar workers. Blue states and Red states. Skin color has nothing to do with it, but these associations tell us quite a bit about who we are dealing with, and what we can expect from that person.

[Bridget Burke]

58. So--you're proposing an American caste system....

White collar: good / Blue collar: bad

Blue state: good / Red state: bad

Just by knowing someone's job & home state, you'll know everything about them.

How utterly idiotic.

[demwing]

64. I'm not "proposing" anything

Point out where I proposed an American caste system, if you can.

What I said (and Im not sure why I bother to repeat this when you didn't bother to read my post the first time)was that the caste system--as it was intended--isn't so much about one's skin color as it is about one's apptitude.

As an example, I pointed out that we ALREADY have a similar system in America (whether you approve or not is of no consequence) where we identify people by their apptitudes, and break society up into color coded segments, such as white and blue collar, Red and Blue states.

Obviously, this isn't a perfect system, nor is it meant to be, nor am I proposing it should be. It just IS. And as it exists, I am free to write about it with a bit of academic objectivity, if I so choose.

Why don't you think a little harder about what is being said before you start accusing others of idiotic behavior, ok?

[MsTryska]

66. heh. Demwing....

looks like you and i are on the same side of the battle, again. ;-)

how have you been by the way?

[demwing]

87. Namaste, Mataji

refresh my memory, what was it last time?

[MsTryska]

88. Namaste!

I can't remember - but we've been of like-mind on something else before - aside from the post-election group. (kerry's lesbian comments during the debates perhaps?)


in any case now that holiday hoo-haa is over, you think we should get back to focusing on 2K6?

[demwing]

90. We probably made the error

of disagreeing with the majority mindset.

I seem to step in that pile all too often :|

Where to go now? Damn. Good Q. As nothing monumental seems to be happening with the 2004 der-election, what choice do we have but to look towards the future.

Hey!

Since we've already been branded as such, maybe we should work to have the caste system added to the Democratic party platform?

I really think we could appeal to the swing voters with that plank, what do ya think?

/sarcasm

[MsTryska]

92. *lol*!

as long as we can guarantee a living wage, that plank might work.

[ChairOne]

77. Holy crap - you guys really *do* believe in BNW societies...

"the caste system--as it was intended--isn't so much about one's skin color as it is about one's apptitude."

Just fyi - many of us believe to the contrary - something more like the Ackroyd/Murphy Trading Places model. On that model, the typical case is of people having equal apptitude (sic) ACROSS the various "castes".

But rock on with you're (sic) guys' predestination way of thinking... Now that I understand it, I'm good. It's really the same idea as the old divine-right-of-kings - just dressed up with an intellectual-sounding tilt to it. Have fun, folks.

[Bridget Burke]

78. Obviously, certain castes have less spelling "apptitude"!

They don't need it because they've got secretaries.

But I'm only a Red Stater, so what do I know?

[ChairOne]

80. lol - I haven't gotten to use "sic" so much since...

... hell - I dunno - since the last time I had to grade freshmen essays perhaps...

EDIT: changed "had" to "gotten" in subject line.

[demwing]

93. Which explains why you've used it incorrectly...

It would be [sic], not (sic). Also, the word is used to point out an error within a quote. If you were quoting, you were doing so without the messy burden of quotation marks.

Now I'm the HTML/ASCII/grammar Nazi. Big fun. :silly:

[demwing]

86. Oh please, a spelling Nazi?

But you're correct in questioning yourself.

What DO you know? I notice you never answered my last question, asking you to back up your outrageous claim that I was promoting a caste system. You ignored that post (why am I not surprised?) and came back with a spelling error.

Alas, I am defeated. (Snort!)

Red state, blue state, blue collar or white, you seem to spend more time trying to correct my spelling than trying to understanding my intent, and that says something about you.

[demwing]

84. No. You don't understand it

I can tell just be reading your post:

"Just fyi - many of us believe to the contrary - something more like the Ackroyd/Murphy Trading Places model. On that model, the typical case is of people having equal apptitude (sic) ACROSS the various 'castes'."

That model is in no way contrary to what I have written.

Obviously, if two individuals have the same apptitudes, then they belong to the same "caste." Race, skin color, birth, gender etc...none of that matters. Apptitude matters. Skills matter. Ability matters, nothing else. Am I being clear?

What is so freaking hard to understand about that, and why must you ignore what I'm saying in order to assume I have some twisted vision of predestiny and divine right?

Jeez, just when you think that nobody listens anymore, they go and prove you right.

[MsTryska]

85. as i've been saying in going back and forth with this one...

reading comprehension is not his/her strongsuit.

[demwing]

89. I have no idea what I said to touch this off

Some people don't tolerate analytical discussion. One must be either for something or against it in order to discuss it.

Further, in this arena, not being opposed to "X" is the same as being in favor of "X," and vise versa.

Take a dispassionate stand and you get accused of plotting a brave new world....

[MsTryska]

91. I know it.

I mean at the heart of it is ignorance.


ignorance of other cultures, and that same deep disdain for analytical thought (as you said) that we accuse the other side of having.



I'll be the first to admit there are quite a few around here who are guilty of fascistic thinking.

[Bridget Burke]

123. We do not have a caste system in the USA

There are class differences, race differences & ethnic differences.

Please give more details on the aptitude-based "castes" that you believe in.

No, you are not being clear.

[demwing]

130. Lets take a step back before we go forward

I think I created some confusion when I wrote:

"You don't need a system to tell you the color of someone's skin. Skin color is self evident. You do need a system to identify one's aptitudes."

This was badly worded, in fact, I completely botched the comment.

What I was thinking, and what I was intending to say was that it does not take an elaborate social structure to qualify a person according to skin color (as if a person should be qualified in such a way. They should not. Also, I use "qualify" only because I can't think of a better term. I don't like "qualify" under these circumstances. If you understand what I'm getting at here, and have a better term, transcribe in your mind, with my appreciation). Skin color is self evident. A structure that qualifies a person by ability arises out of the observation that people have differing abilities, regardless of their outward physical appearances.

The origin of the varanasrama system included many references to the concept that the social body depended on each of the division equally. In other words, the divisions were not intended to box people in to a predestined job or duty. The divisions were a somewhat crude method of what we call vocational guidance counseling.

Varnasrama is similar in many ways to what Marx may have intended when he wrote: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Unfortunately, power corrupts, and those that found themselves in places of power, but with children who were not qualified to continue in the father's footsteps (sound like any Bush we know? - Actually, none of the Bush family members are qualified. Bad example.) twisted the varnasrama system. Instead of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" we have ended up with "from each according to his birth, to each according to his birth."

Therefore, judging the entire "caste" system by its current corrupt incarnation is unfair. Just as judging the US Constitution by the Bush adminitsration's inability to uphold same is unfair.

Now, as far as whether we have a caste system in the US or not, here's my comment. Obviously, we do not have an established ethic that encompasses the caste system, either as it exits today or as it was intended to exist, thousands of years ago.

What we do have is a shadow of that system.

We have a labor class. We have a merchant class. We have a military/political class. We have a academic/theological class.

Clearly, in American society there are professions that cross such class divisions. That is a good thing. That means we are progressing beyond social roots that go back thousands of years.

But those roots exist, and not just theoretically. As I tried to point out before, the color of you "collar" gives people an impression of your aptitudes. If you hold a white color job, there are certain stereotypes associated with that position, and the same is true for blue collor jobs. In fact, we even see types of crimes one commits through the white/blue collar division, and also the type of punishments one receives for those crimes.

None of this is written into the code of law, it just sits as a natural division that we instintively perceive.

Do I approve or disapprove of these division? If I do or don't, it has nothing to do with what has been said up to this point. I've tried to write without bias, because my bias has nothing to do with the facts.

Fair enough?

[Must_B_Free]

119. Skin color was the basis for Varna

look at the word Varna looks like "varnish" which means "surface finish". I suspect the words are related, because conceptually they sure are.

[demwing]

121. Etymology of "Varnish"

From:
Middle English vernisshe,
from Old French vernis,
from Medieval Latin veronix, vernix,
from Medieval Greek verenik,
from Greek Berenik or Berenice, Greek name for the ancient city Benghazi. Inhabited since Greek and Roman times, it is a major port and was a capital of Libya from 1951 to 1972.

So varnish was named for Benhazi, a city where the substance was produced, much like a Hamburger was named for ther city of Hamburg. There is no ham in a hamburger, and there is no varna in varnish. BTW - Varna means color, and varnish is colorless.

On the other hand, Varna was first spoken of in the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna (Vishnu, or God), describes the system:

"According to the three modes of nature and the types of behavior associated within them, the four divisions of human society (varna-asrama) are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am not subjet to the system, being unchangeable."

Krishna specifically states that varna-asrama, or varnasrama, is based on behavior. He does not mention birth of skin color. Also telling is that fact that Krishna says he is not subject to varnasrama because he is unchangeable, indicating of course that varnasrama is flexible or changeable.

Behavior changes, skin color does not, unless you are Michael Jackson.

Varna, while referring to color, does not refer to skin color, no more than Hamburgers contain ham, or sandwiches sand.

[Must_B_Free]

137. Do you know what vernix is?

[demwing]

138. Yep

Vernix is Latin for varnish.

But I'm guessing that you're referring to vernix caseosa, the cheesy, pasty, waxy dead skin cells that cover and protect the fetus.

Literally, vernix caseosa means varnish cheese, or cheese-like varnish.

Yuck. Why do people insist on comparing ick-filled inedible things to food?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. the holier than thou attitude to the caste system is amusing

because as is the caste system in current india is in no way worse than the class system in modern america.

[blondeatlast]

109. And far less understood.

Apparently it's okay to trash a misunderstood cultural perception on DU now.

Did I make a right on my way in this morning?

[blondeatlast]

107. Pity we couldn't have had your wisdom earlier, but thanks for offering it.

Thank you for the insight, but I suspect it will fall on many deaf ears.

Sigh.

It is a difficult concept for Americans to grasp, but yours is a good outline of how it works. Thanks again.

[gorky]

94. Re : The caste system in India

This is a biased and vindictive report by Terry Friel who has a history of twisting facts and throwing in unrelated news items to push whatever agenda he is selling. It is not just dalits ( untouchables ) who are cleaning the corpses. Here is his original report :

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=411335


click on the accompanying photo. They may or may not be dalits , but they look no different from me or most other Indians. How can Mr. Terry Friel say somebody is from dalit or another caste when I myself, an Indian, cannot do that just by looking at someone. Does Mr. Friel speak Tamil , the local language ? Does Mr. Friel know that Nagapattinam is a predominantly christian area with a famous church called Velankani. Does christianity also require dalits to do the burying ?


Now see this report :

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/004200412291040.htm

Quote
Nagapattinam(TN), Dec 29. (PTI):Over 4900 bodies have been buried so far by Red Cross volunteers in the district which bore the brunt of Tsunami disaster, according to an official of the Thanjavur chapter of the Red Cross (RC).
<snip>
The Red Cross, with the help of RSS volunteers, has undertaken mass burials all over the district. Even bodies which could not be identified had been buired as they were highly decomposed, he said.
End Quote

The RSS is the hindu nationalist organisation that everybody in the west loves to hate . Whenever a disaster strikes they are the first ones to reach the area and do the lowest work that no one else wants to do. They have members from all castes.

( The Hindu newspaper is one of the oldest newspapers of India with a marked leftist / Marxist bias despite its name. They do their best to not report anything good about hindu organisations. )

Here is another report :
http://newstodaynet.com/31dec/rf4.htm

Quote :
Following an SOS from Nagapattinam district collector, RSS sent volunteers from all over the State to the affected areas.
The volunteers performed funeral rites to 1,100 bodies recovered from the tsunami-hit areas in this district alone.
The relief works in Kanyakumari district were coordinated with the Ramakrishna Mission and a medical camp is functioning with doctors and volunteers.
End Quote


Of course none of the Western press will publish these news items because these go against their pre-conceived notions of painting Indians as a backward caste-ridden society.


Here is post in a messsage board by a person who actually worked in Nagapattinam and cremated bodies.

http://www.sulekha.com/news/ThreadComment.aspx?cid=532257

Read these things and understand what is really happening in India instead of making your prejudiced comments based on a biased report by some stupid journalist whose views just reinforce your already prejudiced mind. There are people of all castes and religions (including Muslims ) doing burying , burning and cleaning of corpses of humans and animals. It is sad and sickening that even during a tragic time like this people want to push their agenda. What does mr. Terrry Friel and his like want ? All Hindus should convert to his brand of book religion ? What good has that done to the people of Africa , South America or Philipines ?

[blondeatlast]

110. Welcome to DU, and I hope everyone will read your excellent links.

Thanks for offerinbg some context, i only hope that others will read this post and enlighten themselves.

I'm married to a Punjab and we read Indian news journals frequently.

The attitude in this thread is NOT the prevailing attitude at DU. I hope to hear more from you!

:toast:

[blondeatlast]

111. DUers, the RW media doesn't exist solely in the US.

While we are all stabbing each other, please take time to read the links in post (sorry--coming on edit!)

Edit: in post 94; they are excellent, and give the South Asian POV.

[sistersofmercy]

116. OK I didn't read the article but I read an excellent article about

a year or two ago in National Geographic (I'm sure someone will attack the source)about the caste system in India which is technically outlawed btw. Anyway, the article relayed facts on the subject of the "untouchables" as sanitation work as well as working with leather. Leather work shops are big business in India, very lucrative and apparently forbidden by other castes. The end result is, of course, financial jealousy which results in assassinations of owners and fires in leather shops. Quite sad imo!
But hey, we're outsourcing to India. As a side note, India also has a problem with slave labor, in particular, child slave labor in jewelry shops. Children as young as four years old are sold into slave labor by destitute parents. Ah but American women want their gold necklaces! Cheap!

[IronLionZion]

128. The former president was an "untouchable"

"untouchables" are becoming doctors, lawyers, engineers, and so on. A lot of them even converted to Christianity since Christians don't have castes.

Untouchables completely control the Indian state of Bihar and tell the higher castes to go fuck themselves. There are laws against caste discrimination. The secular government is against that kind of nonsense. Caste problems occur mostly in rural villages amongst uneducated people.

Things are getting better.

[pandorasox]

145. As it happens, the Bollywood "event movie" of the season making rounds

in the U.S. now...touches on this very topic.

Swades