Sec. of Defense William Cohen on man made earthquakes at thememoryhole.org

[NAO]

The Memory Hole is a site that archives government documents that the government would rather have disappear into 'the memory hole'. (Just FYI, it was The Memory Hole that brought us the flag-draped casket photos of the U.S. Soldiers killed in Iraq.)

In a 1997 conference, then Secretary of Defense William Cohen talked about eco-terrorism, which he said included "altering the weather and causing earthquakes". He was not joking, nor was he wearing a tin-foil hat at the time.

Here is a link to the transcript:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/cohen-ecoweapons.htm

Cohen's statemnt: "...Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves...So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important."

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

1. Sounds completely ridiculous

IMO

[NAO]

2. The Secretary of Defense of the United States said it, on the record

Which is not to say that high officials in the US Government do not often say completely ridiculous things...

[flyingfysh]

5. and the Soviet Union used to waste money on psychic research

Psychic research is also completely ridiculous, but that didn't stop the USSR from wasting money on it. Not to be outdone on stupidity, the CIA tried to keep up with the USSR by doing their own psychic research with infamous "remote viewing" experiments.

The amount of electromagnetic energy that would be required to set off an earthquake (even if it could be done) would be absolutely enormous and impossible to hide.

If a US government official said anything along these lines, he was being stupid.

[Tinoire]

12. Hate to break it to you but the government here spends millions

on psychic research too.

If a US government official said anything along these lines, he was being stupid.

Or maybe he just knew some things you can't google? Like, you know, classified things.

[jdj]

57. I was going to say, someone using the past tense about this

or any thing weird regarding the CIA is naive.

[unpossibles]

21. not that I disagree with you per se

but to be a true skeptic, you should look at your own statement of "the CIA tried to keep up with the USSR by doing their own psychic research with infamous "remote viewing" experiments."

Who is to say what works and what doesn't. I have recently (all on MSM) read of a robot that powers itself eating flies, and another story of an artificially created brain which has learned how to use a flight simulator. What is there we do not know about, that will remain classified until later?

And remember, people used to think going to the moon was an outrageous idea as well.

[Occulus]

76. the brain one was legit, actually

it was an experiment into neural networks. The scientists found that brain tissue appears to be inherently 'wired' to learn how to interact.

Using the same concept (but differing methods), there has now been developed a prototype "brainwave cap" that allows persons to think at a mouse cursor- and move it. Ironically, the same study found that in the two pairs of people used (two fully functional and two wheelchair-bound), the disabled pair actually fared better than the nondisabled pair. This research will logically extend to (eventually) exoskeletal limbs that will allow those who currently use a wheelchair to walk- they'll have their "thinking caps" on, you see. :)

The study is actually not a joke. I saw a Discovery channel episode some years ago that had a tank commander using the same method to navigate a viewport through a series of rings. This technology is progressing and we will surely see high-end consumer electronics starting to appear based on it within the next five to ten years, if the research continues as it has. I'm all for it, personally, if for no other reason than the medical applications.

And now, for something completely different, scientists have also learned how to transfer quantum information to a photon. As I understand it, entanglement is somehow involved. Quantum teleportation in its embryonic state as we speak.....

[unpossibles]

95. actually, the fly-eating robot is not a joke either

granted it is a small prototype, but it basically lures flies to its "mouth" and digests them for lack of a better term, and uses the released energy to power itself. pretty crazy stuff, and all real.

[bobthedrummer]

30. STARGATE and similar psychic projects have been privatized

at places like SAIC, they are government contractors now.
http://www.lfr.org/csi/index.shtml

[NAO]

35. Ever notice that SAIC is CIA's spelled backwards *nm*

[seemslikeadream]

43. Nuclear Weapons Stealth Takeover

Tuesday 14th September 2004 (13h37) :
Nuclear Weapons Stealth Takeover
5 comment(s).
by LEUREN MORET

5 Admirals, U.C. Regents, Carlyle Group, and Rand

...
The 2001 Space Preservation Act, HR 2977 which was introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich, let the cat out of the bag and revealed under the "Definitions" in the bill, that directed energy weapons which can target individuals and populations from space for the purposes of psychotronics, mind control, and mood control, are clearly the new space weapons intended to establish global dominance by the New World Order. Directed energy weapons developed in the nuclear weapons labs have been used on nuclear weapons lab whistleblowers, UC students, handed over to the EPA to use on environmentalists, and to the FBI to turn over to local law enforcement. These weapons are now land, air, and sea based. Space is the last frontier.

...

One of SAIC’s prime clients is DARPA (DOD), which recently employed 5-time convicted felon Admiral Poindexter, an associate of Inman’s going back to Iran-Contra. Poindexter was forced to resign over his involvement with PAM, a "terrorism futures market" DARPA project which predicted assassinations, terrorism and other events in the Middle East. His earlier controversial program TIPS – the Total Information Awareness Program – was set up to spy on Americans. He was also involved in creating large information databases on Americans which are now being used to track citizens. SAIC also had contracts to develop information systems for the Pentagon, FBI and IRS. Police can now legally stop a person on the street, ask their name, type it into a palm pilot and come up with detailed personal information in a few seconds. An Associated Press story on Sept. 9, 2004, "Conn. City Uses Scanners to Nab Criminals" revealed that police in New Haven, Connecticut, are now driving around in police cars with infrared scanners connected to databases which they are using on license plates to hunt for "criminals", tax delinquents, and parking ticket violators. Some of the $25,000 scanners were paid for in one month from collected revenues. A military project, the real purpose of the internet is revealing itself:



"The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities." - Zbigniew Brzezinski.
The association of Admiral Inman, the Bush crime syndicate, Texas oil companies, and the Carlyle Group with the University of Texas explained why an advanced 4th generation nuclear weapons research program is there. And it explained why the University of Texas is so eager to take over the nuclear weapons labs. But this takeover resembles Inmans involvement with a stealth takeover of the Mars program transferring it from JPL management and control to NASA.

The NASA Deep Space Program was started at JPL to do space exploration more efficiently with lower costs. Criticism of NASA/JPL Mars mission failure problems in the Thomas Young Report released on March 28, 2000, revealed that the supposedly public space program had been hijacked into secrecy and that the military was calling the shots. NASA Administrator Daniel Goldin on March 29, 2000, revealed at JPL the day after release of the report, just who was in control and the existence of an oversight committee that nobody at JPL knew existed:



"I’d also like to acknowledge Admiral Inman, head of the JPL Oversight Committee at Cal Tech. He couldn’t be here today, but I talked to him by phone. His commitment to the team here is also unwavering. And I thank him for that."



Goldin was there "to address beleaguered personnel, scientists and engineers of the Nation’s premier unmanned center for planetary exploration, and to somehow advise them of the new political and engineering realities, while simultaneously exhorting them to continue to new heights but now under more stringent NASA management". The real question is what was Admiral Inman doing as chair of a committee in a private university overseeing all civilian unmanned exploration of the planet Mars without the knowledge of anyone at JPL? In two years Admiral Bobby Ray Inman took over the space program, and in another year from now he will have succeeded in taking over the nuclear weapons program. When Newsweek called him "a superstar in the intelligence community", it was for good reason.

A Naval officer I interviewed later replied when I asked him if he knew Inman "…oh yeah… he’s one of the players…".


DEPOPULATION: 4th GENERATION NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND DEPLETED URANIUM

more
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=3323


WHO SHOULD CONTROL THE US NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM?

[Occulus]

77. nevermind

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. What do we have to gain in killing hundreds of thousands of poor people

and tourists?

[Tinoire]

14. My question isn't so much that

because that thought is frankly too mind-boggling. My question would be more along the lines of was someone testing a shiny new toy?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. Like Hank Scorpio?

[ooglymoogly]

28. that shiny new toy just might be haarp

both ussr and usa have this tech.

[ilovenicepeople]

60. and may I add ,

that if HAARP didn't work,there would no reason for a 2nd HAARP system to be built in Greenland(sorry no link,but I believe the person that told me).I guarantee 2005 will be one *ucking crazy year.HAPPY NEW YEAR DU:party: :scared: :party: :scared: :hi:

[NAO]

16. Companies like Bechtel or Halliburton could rebuild, then privatize system

Halliburton could rebuild the water distribution system for Indonesia. It could be paid for by US tax revenues. Imagine that, the US relief aid money going into the pockets of private companies, and the profit being distributed to stockholders as dividends!!!

Now, if some contractor did rebuild the infrastructure, would they then 'own' it? Would that infrastructure then be privatized? Could that company include mineral rights (read oil rights) as part of their payment for rebuilding? Could that company reap profits from that infrastructure for decades to come? You bet.

Note that they would not necessarily have to have caused it to be able to come in and exploit the disaster after the fact.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

19. Come on!

That's crazy

[Tinoire]

22. IOW you are trusting in their sanity? Goodness of heart?

to not exploit this fortuitious catastrophe for all it's worth? I know you don't normally trust them further than you can throw them. So why would you now? You think their hearts are going to be touched by the plight of the catastrophe's victims when there's money to be made?

You're talking about people with NO hearts. People who do not think, reason or, more importantly, feel like you or me.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. ok

[Tinoire]

41. Honestly, I wish I could trust in their goodness of heart

It's a damn shame when your government is so evil and corrupt that you can't even trust them to have the least shred of human decency. Thanks Chavez. Btw, you're one of my favorite posters here ;)


"El Arbusto es un penche pendejo cavron!!!!"

http://www.smh.com.au/text/ffximage/2004/03/08/hugo_chavez,0.jpg

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

47. You got it Tinoire. I wasn't trying to give you a hard time.

Im just having a hard time with this one.

- Peace

[Tinoire]

48. It is a hard one & painful to even contemplate

Frankly, I try not to except sometimes very superficially. There are some things your sanity just doesn't want to know. Not yet & certainly not now.

Meanwhile MSNBC is revisiting Amber Fry! Amber Fry? Wtf. Peace to you.

[jdj]

58. Bingo.

That is why some people instantly eject the possibility of election fraud, it's not that the evidence is not there but because what it would mean to their psyche to have to admit to living in a country where this is possible... they WON'T do it. At it's base it is narcissism, people putting their psychic needs before they good of their country, their children's safety and future, everything.

[Occulus]

78. so you say, but

"It is far easier to treat a disease than it is to cure it."

[NAO]

23. quake is most likely completely natural - but it could STILL be exploited

for profit and privatization by greedy multinational corporations.

I would frankly be surprised if some of the aid money from the US and other countries did NOT end up in the pockets of "private reconstruction contractors".

I would also be surprised if those who participated in the rebuilding (for their standard price) were not in a better position to exploit the area and it's natural resources AFTER the reconstruction is complete and the aid money is all spent.

[Radical Activist]

36. maintaining economic and military dominance of the world

Now we don't need to invade a nation or have a better economy. We just send them a tsunami and the crippling effect on their economy keeps us on top for another 5-10 years. The best part is that no one suspects you did it so the act is consequence free for your own nation. Just a thought. I can see why that would appeal to someone evil enough to do the things Bush has been doing.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. Do you know how much force is needed to generate tsunami on this scale?

[Radical Activist]

40. I have no idea what kind of underwater earthquake it would take.

I'm just saying it is possible and that is a motive fitting in with the attitudes of the Bush administration.

Personally, I wouldn't believe it was intentional until there was some evidence, but I do think it scientifically could be done. Maybe this will give them ideas for the future.

[dbsherri]

18. idea

Sorry to put this here, but this site won't let me post my own, even though I have responded to many posts.

Please consider canceling your cable service on or around Inauguration day as a protest about the way we hear the news. I rarely watch the news, but the reporting of the Tsunami disaster sent me over the top. Only the US used it as a way to further a political point of view. The US is a world leader in giving, and on and on. It made me sick.

Try this on:

What if LESS THAN one quarter of the people who voted for Kerry cancel their cable television service to protest the news media? Let’s say 250,000 households.

On average, cable costs $2/day. That’s HALF A MILLION DOLLARS PER DAY.

Keep it off a month, that’s 15 MILLION DOLLARS

If you don’t think that will have an economic impact on cable television, you’re wrong.

YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. KILL YOUR TELEVISION SERVICE. GET TO KNOW YOUR KIDS, GET TO KNOW YOUR PARTNER, GET TO KNOW YOURSELF. READ MORE. GET MORE EXERCISE. LISTEN TO THE RADIO, PLAY MORE MUSIC, RENT A MOVIE IF YOU MUST WATCH TELEVISION.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, SEND THE MONEY YOU SAVE TO DISASTER RELIEF.

IF YOU WANT THIS COUNTRY BACK, YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT BACK.

[Tinoire]

24. Here. I will post it for you in GD giving you full credit. How's that?

Just make sure you're one of the first to respond ok because this kind of post isn't what I'm known for lol.

[Tinoire]

29. And here's the link- You now have your very own thread

;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2898419#

[ElsewheresDaughter]

26. H. R. 2977 : Space Preservation Act of 2001....."tectonic weapons".......

www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html

HR 2977 IH


107th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 2977
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

October 2, 2001
Mr. KUCINICH introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Science, and in addition to the Committees on Armed Services, and International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned



----------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Space Preservation Act of 2001'.

SEC. 2. REAFFIRMATION OF POLICY ON THE PRESERVATION OF PEACE IN SPACE.

Congress reaffirms the policy expressed in section 102(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (42 U.S.C. 2451(a)), stating that it `is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.'.

SEC. 3. PERMANENT BAN ON BASING OF WEAPONS IN SPACE.

The President shall--

(1) implement a permanent ban on space-based weapons of the United States and remove from space any existing space-based weapons of the United States; and

(2) immediately order the permanent termination of research and development, testing, manufacturing, production, and deployment of all space-based weapons of the United States and their components.

SEC. 4. WORLD AGREEMENT BANNING SPACE-BASED WEAPONS.

The President shall direct the United States representatives to the United Nations and other international organizations to immediately work toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing a world agreement banning space-based weapons.

SEC. 5. REPORT.

The President shall submit to Congress not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and every 90 days thereafter, a report on--

(1) the implementation of the permanent ban on space-based weapons required by section 3; and

(2) progress toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing the agreement described in section 4.

SEC. 6. NON SPACE-BASED WEAPONS ACTIVITIES.

Nothing in this Act may be construed as prohibiting the use of funds for--

(1) space exploration;

(2) space research and development;

(3) testing, manufacturing, or production that is not related to space-based weapons or systems; or

(4) civil, commercial, or defense activities (including communications, navigation, surveillance, reconnaissance, early warning, or remote sensing) that are not related to space-based weapons or systems.

SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;

(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;

(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or

(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.

(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--

(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);

(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or

(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

[Tinoire]

9. Proper link for Cohen (WH) & some thoughts

DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen
Monday, April 28, 1997 - 8:45 a.m. EDT

Cohen's keynote address at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy at the Georgia Center, Mahler Auditorium, University of Georgia, Athens, Ga. The event is part of the Sam Nunn Policy Forum being hosted by the University of Georgia. Secretary Cohen is joined by Sen. Sam Nunn and Sen. Richard G. Lugar.]

Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves.

"So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important."

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/1997/t042897_t0428coh.html

===

"Given what we know about the Pentagon's interests in exotic technologies, the trillions that have vanished from its budgets over the last decade, and the warning from a Secretary of Defense of the potential threat posed by electromagnetic weapons which could influence the weather, even triggering earthquakes, and given all we don't know about the Pentagon's top secret R& D" ((quote from Minstrel Boy)), one has to wonder. It would be morally criminal not to.

When we have the words of a Secretary of Defense stating that such weapons pose at least a hypothetical threat, cerain hypothetical questions deserve thought. Hypothetical thought if that's all some can muster.

When out guys say we need to DEFEND against this kind of thing, you had better start to believe they put some of their own development into it themselves. And anyone who doesn't shod march right up to the Pentagon and demand a refund for the trillions of tax dollars that were spent.

=====

Remember that little "nut-case" Congressman Kucinich? The one whose message so many people just didn't get and mocked?

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html">Bill 107th CONGRESS, 1st Session, H. R. 2977
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons


Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as—

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) chemtrails;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.



BLACK SEA BASIN REGIONAL PROFILE:
THE SECURITY SITUATION AND THE REGION-BUILDING OPPORTUNITIES

(A Background and January - March 2000 Issue in Brief)
© Institute for Security and International Studies (ISIS), Sofia

Research Study 5
Hard Copy: ISSN 1311 – 3259

e) Georgia-Russia
((March 2000))
Georgia’s Green Party called for an international investigation of the Esheri (Abkhasia) Russian secret military laboratory in mid-January. The Greens speculate that nuclear and tectonic weapons are developed by the laboratory.

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isis/Research_Studies/Black_Sea_Basin_Regional_Profile/BlackSea2000_01-03.htm

Not So Surprising Nuke-Earthquake News
http://www.coastalpost.com/96/12/2.htm
Russia, carried out an extensive "tectonic weapon" research program, a deliberate attempt to create earthquakes using underground nuclear weapons. Russian newspaper Moscow News has obtained papers showing that the program, first known as "Mercury" and later as "Volcano," was launched in 1987 and ended in 1992.

RUSSIAN SPECIAL FORCES MOBILIZING AFGHAN DIASPORA ((Oct 2001))
According to "Argumenty i fakty" on 17 October, Russia's special services have begun to organize some of the Afghan diaspora in Russia and to train them in "the latest partisan warfare methods and modern weapons-handling techniques." The weekly also reported that Russia may explode some "tectonic weapons" in Afghanistan to block the border with Tajikistan.
http://www.rferl.org/newsline/2001/10/231001.asp

Tectonic Arms
An Azerbaijani KGB officer has disclosed that Moscow secretly conducted exotic research into tectonic arms—weapons that can cause and control earthquakes. Lt. Col. Akif Gasanov claims: "The information I received seemed fantastic. Certain scientists at the Academy of Sciences were working on problems associated with earthquakes. . . . asserted that they could control and initiate earthquakes. . . . In their opinion, there were grounds to believe that a number of earthquakes that had occurred recently may well have been initiated through a remote control device or accidentally triggered directional influence on the earth's core." Gasanov also said a series of quakes in the late 1980s—occurring from India to Central Asia—were the result of tectonic weapons tests.
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/PAGE/literature.worldwatch.1007ww/printer/friendly.htm

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. What do we have to gain to do this?

[Tinoire]

20. Too mind-boggling a thought to entertain

but the arrangement of the New World Order would spring to mind if I did.

Like I said in a post you probably didn't read before asking me, I more about the possibility that someone, anyone, may have been testing a shiny new toy. A shiny new highly classified toy, one of the hundreds whose very names are classified.

[NAO]

32. If there is a NWO, it will consist of private, for-profit companies...

not a totalitarian government.

The oppression of the future will be economic oppression, not physical oppression. The coercion will be economic rather than physical. It will emanate from corporations, rather than from government. It will be from a few mega multi-national companies rather than from one monolithic state. Governments are merely the tools and servants of private power and wealth.

[Jose Diablo]

50. What to gain?

This may sound really off the wall, but suppose technology does exist to cause earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons, name the (natural) disaster. Would it then be a far stretch to imagine a power group using this technology to simulate Armageddon and thus place themselves in position of power, indefinitely, by using religion and superstition.

Todays technology would look like magic to people only a century and a half ago.

Sound like tinfoil hat? You bet, but then again why was Kucinich trying to get a space preservation act passed if some pretty exotic weaponry didn't exist today.

[Rockerdem]

68. I think we underestimate the deviousness of that crowd

Sometimes I laugh at cockeyed theories about underwater piping systems to create tidal waves. But then, think of the crackpots our government hires. The name Gordon Liddy alone gives some of these things instant credence.

[nashville_brook]

55. ever hear of Mutually Assured Destruction?

the fact that a particular military strategy doesn't preserve one's self-interest has never been a major consideration.

[barbaraann]

3. Isn't he a Republican?

n/t

[TheDebbieDee]

7. Yes, but he served under Democratic President Clinton.....

the last undisputed, legally-elected US President.

[Verve]

4. Please tell me there is no way the US had anything to do with the

Tsunami. Our submarines weren't practicing new weapons around this time. Were we? I know this is a crazy idea but Shrub is such a F--- up, nothing about his leadership would suprise me anymore.

[NAO]

8. I would tend to suspect corporations, using sound to map sea floor

looking for off-shore oil deposits.

[Caution]

10. There is no way the US had anything to do with this

And anyone who perpetuates this type of crap is simply giving credence to the worst type of conspiracy garbage.

[Tinoire]

38. Whether or not they had anything to do with it, Explain to me please

why they didn't warn anyone... Why was only Diego Garcia sent a warning?

The NOAA's lame excuse that they didn't know who to call, so they sent an e-mail (that days later, still no one has recieved) is BS. When you're part of an agency like that, you damn well know who to call, and if the operation is so unbelievably sloppy that they don't have published lists, then you

call those countries' Embassies,
call sister agencies in those countries
call those countries' weather services
call those countries news services
call your superior agencies and tell them you need help contacting people.

Ramsey Clark, US Attorney General appointed by John F. Kennedy, is already on this issue. He's being kind and calling that http://www.iacenter.org/tsunami.htm">"Criminal Negligence on a Global".

Jeff LaDouce, an official in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, said that they e-mailed Indonesian officials, but said that he wasn’t aware what happened after they sent the e-mails.

In this day of instant communications, controlled in a large part by the U.S., it is possible to communicate within minutes to every part of the globe. It is beyond belief that the officials at the NOAA could not find any method to directly and immediately contact civilian authorities in the area.


WHY did they not warn anyone?

[Minstrel Boy]

11. And the link to the Department of Defense transcript

for those who think the Memory Hole is yanking their chain:

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/1997/t042897_t0428coh.html

[Tinoire]

15. Note post 9

Not because I posted the link first :P but because of the quote from an old post of yours :)

[seemslikeadream]

25. Joint Task Force Told Face to Face, Blackout was a Military Test

Joint Task Force Told Face to Face, Blackout was a Military Test

Oliver J. Midelson

At an under publicized public comment meeting, which was publicly 'announced' by a Department of Energy news release, Michael Kane outlined his report, published at Global Free Press, stating that the August 14th blackout was part and parcel to a multi-faceted military test. The Task Force was very attentive, attempting to take notes as fast as Michael spoke.

His comments can be heard in Windows Media player format (now playing). They were the last comments made to the panel.

It was a snowy Friday afternoon in Manhattan and very few people showed up. Both Forbes and the Akron Beacon Journal left out Michael's comments in their "coverage" of the New York pubic comment meeting. Once again the mainstream media completely fails the public, and Global Free Press is the only publication brave enough to run the real coverage of this so-called 'public' comment meeting. How public can it be if no one reports it? The "New Media" such as GFP, FTW, INN, SGTV, and many more are proving to be our only salvation.

Michael made the only interesting comments given the entire day with the exception of Carole Dortch-Wright, who spoke on behalf of New Jersey Governor James McGreevey. The NY Times, who had a reporter present at this meeting, seem to have provided no coverage in their Saturday edition. For the record, I personally saw Michael's report handed to the NY Times reporter. Hopefully they are saving it for their Sunday edition, but I won't hold my breath.

Very few people showed up to the public comment meeting in Cleveland, Ohio on December 4th, prompting Rep. Dennis Kucinich and four other members of Congress to accuse the D.O.E. of failing to adequately notify the public, according to the Akron Beacon Journal

The first point Michael made was that the Task Force Interim Report failed to address the possibility of Electro Magnetic Pulses causing the blackout. He noted that it is known HAARP was turned on at 4pm on August 14th, just 11 minutes before the blackout occurred. He stated the Air Force should be contacted and required to turn over all documentation pertaining to what HAARP was used for on that day.

Michael detailed the aerial aerosol spray operation he witnessed the night of the blackout, as well as referencing the proximity of the Determined Promise '03 national military drills announced just one day after the blackout. He also mentioned he received a report that the Canadian border was militarized at 1pm on August 14th, just three hours before the blackout, in the Mohawk River Valley region. Why?

Dr. Nawal Kamel appeared to be pleased to hear Mr. Kane's comments, as he was the only person who appealed to the Task Force as a citizen void of any special interest. In addition to this, Senior Policy Advisor James Glotfelty was nodding his head up and down as Michael began to speak of PD-16.

Wayne Madsen has revealed National Security Presidential Directive 16 (PD-16) gave the president authority to wage cyber-warfare against other countries, including bringing down their power grids. Michael pointed out we do not know if any elements of PD-16 pertain to North America.

He continued by referencing Tommy Franks' recent comments in Cigar Aficionado. General Franks' stated if another terrorist attack occurs in America, the Constitution would be scrapped for a military government. Visibly upset by this outrageous statement, Michael put down his prepared statement and made a much-needed comparison to the current 'independent' commission to investigate 9-11.

He noted how the victims family members were terribly disappointed with the 9-11 Commission, and that it is clear the commission will not withstand historical scrutiny. He ended by warning this Task Force the only way for them to avoid the same destiny is to address the questions outlined in his report. He then offered to hand his report to any one interested in reviewing it.

At this point, Alison Silverstein, co-chair of the Electric System Working Group (ESWG) threw both her hands out, prompting Michael to personally hand his report to all nine Task Force members.

I asked Michael what he thought of the Task Force's response:

"I wanted to appeal to their hearts as well as their minds," said Michael in the Park Central Hotel Lobby, "…I think I may have touched one or two hearts in there today."

http://www.prisonplanet.com/120803blackout.html

[satori]

31. World renowned scientist-The Earth as a weapon in 21st Century of Wars

Third World Network
The Earth as a weapon in 21st Century of Wars
By Rahab S Hawa

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/hawa2.htm

While scientists, governments and concerned groups worry about increased industrial emissions of greenhouse gases and its effects on the planet, the role of the military in climate change has been ignored.

‘When environmental crises occur, it is usually only the civilian economy that is called upon to rectify the balance, while military programmes are rarely taken to task,’ says Dr Rosalie Bertell, renowned scientist and nuclear activist.

At the Peoples’ Health Assembly in December 2000 in Dhaka, Bangladesh, Dr. Bertell revealed to a shocked and incredulous audience that ‘the latest weapons in the arsenal of the US military is the Planet Earth itself ... and weather will be one of the worst destructive weapons by the year 2025’.

Dr. Bertell was referring to how engineered earthquakes and tornadoes could wreak havoc on populations and nations.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

33. H. R. 2977 : Space Preservation Act of 2001....."tectonic weapons".......

www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/hr2977.html

HR 2977 IH


107th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 2977
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

October 2, 2001
Mr. KUCINICH introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Science, and in addition to the Committees on Armed Services, and International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned



----------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL
To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Space Preservation Act of 2001'.

SEC. 2. REAFFIRMATION OF POLICY ON THE PRESERVATION OF PEACE IN SPACE.

Congress reaffirms the policy expressed in section 102(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (42 U.S.C. 2451(a)), stating that it `is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind.'.

SEC. 3. PERMANENT BAN ON BASING OF WEAPONS IN SPACE.

The President shall--

(1) implement a permanent ban on space-based weapons of the United States and remove from space any existing space-based weapons of the United States; and

(2) immediately order the permanent termination of research and development, testing, manufacturing, production, and deployment of all space-based weapons of the United States and their components.

SEC. 4. WORLD AGREEMENT BANNING SPACE-BASED WEAPONS.

The President shall direct the United States representatives to the United Nations and other international organizations to immediately work toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing a world agreement banning space-based weapons.

SEC. 5. REPORT.

The President shall submit to Congress not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and every 90 days thereafter, a report on--

(1) the implementation of the permanent ban on space-based weapons required by section 3; and

(2) progress toward negotiating, adopting, and implementing the agreement described in section 4.

SEC. 6. NON SPACE-BASED WEAPONS ACTIVITIES.

Nothing in this Act may be construed as prohibiting the use of funds for--

(1) space exploration;

(2) space research and development;

(3) testing, manufacturing, or production that is not related to space-based weapons or systems; or

(4) civil, commercial, or defense activities (including communications, navigation, surveillance, reconnaissance, early warning, or remote sensing) that are not related to space-based weapons or systems.

SEC. 7. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `space' means all space extending upward from an altitude greater than 60 kilometers above the surface of the earth and any celestial body in such space.

(2)(A) The terms `weapon' and `weapons system' mean a device capable of any of the following:

(i) Damaging or destroying an object (whether in outer space, in the atmosphere, or on earth) by--

(I) firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object;

(II) detonating one or more explosive devices in close proximity to that object;

(III) directing a source of energy (including molecular or atomic energy, subatomic particle beams, electromagnetic radiation, plasma, or extremely low frequency (ELF) or ultra low frequency (ULF) energy radiation) against that object; or

(IV) any other unacknowledged or as yet undeveloped means.

(ii) Inflicting death or injury on, or damaging or destroying, a person (or the biological life, bodily health, mental health, or physical and economic well-being of a person)--

(I) through the use of any of the means described in clause (i) or subparagraph (B);

(II) through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at individual persons or targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such persons or populations; or

(III) by expelling chemical or biological agents in the vicinity of a person.

(B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as--

(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;

(ii) chemtrails;

(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;

(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;

(v) laser weapons systems;

(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and

(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.

(C) The term `exotic weapons systems' includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.

[seemslikeadream]

34. BAE Systems Receives $35 Million For HAARP Program

BAE Systems Receives $35 Million For HAARP Program
from: spacedaily.com

June 14 2004

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/missiles-04zi.html


This is an aerial photograph, looking east, of the HAARP Ionospheric Research Facility which is currently under development at a site 8 miles north of Gakona, Alaska.

Washington (SPX) Jun 14, 2004 - The Office of Naval Research has awarded BAE Systems a $35.4 million contract to manufacture 132 high frequency (HF) transmitters for installation in the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program's (HAARP) phased array antenna system. The contract was finalized April 19 with BAE Systems Information & Electronic Warfare Systems in Washington, D.C.

The HAARP program collects and assesses data to advance knowledge of the physical and electrical properties of the Earth's ionosphere. "We look forward to contributing to this critical program. This is an opportunity for BAE Systems to play an important role in expanding knowledge of the Earth's ionosphere.

Significant potential applications include long-range communication, sensing and satellite vulnerability to nuclear effects," said Ramy Shanny, BAE Systems vice president and general manager for Advanced Technologies (AT).

In 1992, AT was awarded a contract to design and build the Ionospheric Research Instrument (IRI), the HAARP program's primary tool used to study ionospheric physics. The IRI is currently composed of 48 antenna elements and has a power capacity of 960,000 watts.

When installed, the additional 132 transmitters will give HAARP a 3.6 mega-watt capacity. The HAARP build-out is jointly funded by the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Navy and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).
more
http://www.globenet.free-online.co.uk/index.htm

BAE SYSTEMS North America has reached a definitive agreement with Advanced Power Technologies, Inc. (APTI), to purchase the corporation for $27 million in cash.

APTI, a private company with headquarters in Washington, D.C., focuses on intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance exploitation and information processing for defence, civil and commercial uses. APTI's core competencies include radio frequency (RF) and optical engineering, communications and networking, signal and data exploitation and knowledge creation.

Other disciplines include microwave engineering; antenna design and development; optical sensors, plasma and shock physics; advanced ordnance systems; non-destructive testing; signal and image processing; and digital control systems, including industrial-based process controls.

...

Mark Ronald, president and chief executive officer, BAE SYSTEMS North America said, "APTI's demonstrated performance, growth and high quality technical workforce align well with BAE SYSTEMS growth strategy in network centric warfare and information operations.

...

About BAE SYSTEMS:

BAE SYSTEMS is a systems company, innovating for a safer world. BAE SYSTEMS employs nearly 100,000 people including joint ventures, and has annual sales of around $19 billion. The company offers a global capability in air, sea, land and space with a world-class prime contracting ability supported by a range of key skills. BAE SYSTEMS designs, manufactures and supports military aircraft, surface ships, submarines, radar, avionics, communications, electronics, guided weapon systems and a range of other defence products.

BAE SYSTEMS is dedicated to making the intelligent connections needed to deliver innovative solutions.

more
http://www.globenet.free-online.co.uk/index.htm


How and why was electronic warfare carried out in rural Tennessee?

From the known profile of electronic weaponry, the electronic attack upon WJKM appears to have been caused by a tactical electromagnetic weapon, emitting a directed electromagnetic plasma, beam, pulse, etc. at the target. Electronic weapons with this capability are known, and can be land mounted in a facility like the former power plant, mounted in portable facilities like vans, trucks, helicopters or airplanes.

Electronic weapons may even be space-based, on satellite platforms. This reporter has personally met with an Assistant Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon who confirmed the existence of such secret space-based weapons as early as 1977.

An alternative electronic warfare delivery system may involve newly constructed relays for the HAARP installation in Alaska. The potential tactical electronic warfare applications of HAARP are under investigation. Serious public interest researchers maintain that HAARP's electromagnetic energy may cause effects such as earthquakes, such as occurred on July 7 in Hartsville. Electromagnetic weapons have been used in tectonic warfare, intentionally causing earthquakes. Electromagnetic pulse energy accompanies most earthquakes. Research shows that ultra low frequencies emitted by the HAARP installation may affect the human limbic system, and be used for mood management and mind control.

The close resemblance of the Hartsville attack to other U.S. Air Force electronic warfare led to speculation that radio station WJKM may have been chosen as a test target for a clandestine electronic warfare unit located within the power facility, or to which the power facility serves as electronic relay point. The likelihood that the electronic attack was accidental, rather than an intentional military test, is low, given that the targets were media outlets.

more
http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews31.html

[Radical Activist]

39. We already know how to start intentional earthquakes

There's nothing secret about that. I believe it has been done before on a small scale, but regardless it is solid science. Some people have proposed setting off small intentional earthquakes to relieve the pressure in order to avoid large destructive ones. That's very unpredictable and expensive so no one has done it yet in the US.

Since Tsunami's are caused by underground earthquakes there is no reason to think its impossible to create a man-made tsunami. Now, whether it was actually done on purpose is another question altogether, but it is clearly possible to do.

[shance]

54. Was it Tesla in 1913 that proved earthquakes could be created by man?

Apparently both the ability and the potential for man made earthquakes is nothing new, and increasingly has become more known in the scientific (and intelligence?)world throughout the past century.

There have been a fair amount of studies exploring the subject I have found (via Satori, others, and various websites*) dating back to the 1950's.

[bobthedrummer]

42. Some of what we have in our 21st century arsenal can defy nature.

http://www.datafilter.com/mc/nonlethalWeapons.html

[depakid]

44. Here we go again....

This is getting really old.

[satori]

45. Seismic Group-Was the Seattle earthquake triggered by environmental war?

EcoNews Environmental War Desk
EcoNews Service
(March 2001)

http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews12.html

VANCOUVER, BC - Was the Seattle-Vancouver earthquake of 28 February 2001 triggered - accidentally or on purpose - by new, secret electromagnetic weapons?

The Vancouver-based author of EARTH CHANGES: A Spiritual Approach (Universebooks.com), environmentalist Alfred Webre,JD,MEd, believes the deep, magnitude 6.8 earthquake may have been triggered by electromagnetic (EM) events. Other researchers, including members of the ELFRAD Group, which monitors electromagnetic (EM) events, note that HAARP, a U.S. electromagnetic (EM) weapons system in Alaska, - or some other EM source piggy-backing on HAARP's signal - may have inadvertently or intentionally affected the earthquake.

In the aftermath of the Seattle-Vancouver quake, a Yakima valley, Washington researcher, writing agreed with Webre's analysis that earthquakes can be triggered by electromagnetic EM warfare. He stated, "Like the weather and the oceans, the mantle beneath the floating tectonic plates also involve convection cells, but in a plastic medium that sets up wave patterns that may be modified by superimposition of additional waves."

Ominously, two earthquakes along the North American-South American Pacific Rim occurred just following the electromagnetic EM environmental war signals - The Seattle-Vancouver earthquake, and an earthquake off Central America. Were these triggered by the same signals? The director of the ELFRAD group that monitors EM electromagnetic activity, including HAARP and other EM weapons writes, "Date: 2/28/01 1:55:52 PM Pacific Standard Time. Thought you might find this file interesting. It is a 21-hour recording starting this morning at 0001 hrs. We recorded intense activity from .02 to .036 hertz 473 minutes prior to the Washington quake. Actually this was a double boomer, because 4 minutes earlier there was also a quake registering 5.4 off the coast of Central America. Also am including a during the same time period for yesterday so that you can compare with no major quake."

[The Magistrate]

51. Some More Good Humor, Mr. Satori

From this Webre fellow...

Introduction to Exopolitics

Is there intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe? The true
story unfolding in the Universe may turn our concepts upside
down.

In reality, Earth appears to be an isolated planet in the midst
of a populated Universe. Universe society consists of highly
organized and consciously evolving, advanced civilizations.
Universe civilizations function within our own interstellar
Universe, as well as within other dimensions in the Universe at
large. Advanced Universe civilizations exist in other dimensions
parallel to our own. They access our own planet, galaxy, and all
of interstellar space.

Life-bearing planets such as Earth are part of a collective
Universe whole, operating under Universal law. Think of Earth as
part of a Universe commons. Life is implanted and cultivated
here under the tutelage of more advanced societies, in
accordance with the over-all principles of Universe ecology.

Where necessary, Universal law applies restrictive measures to a
planet that endangers the collective whole. Universe government
can remove a planet from open circulation within Universe
society. This fate appears to have happened to Earth in our
distant past. Earth has suffered for aeons as an exopolitical
outcast among the community of Universe civilizations.

Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
or at a future time certain.

The above version of our Universe reality may sound vaguely
familiar to you. It is the stock of most science fiction, after
all. The notion of a populated Universe may have the ring of
truth for you. It may raise a tingle along the back of your
neck, a truth too close for comfort. Or you may react to the
concept of a populated Universe as flaky and unscientific.

Your own beliefs about a populated Universe - whatever they
might be - fall along a spectrum of public opinion that is
frequently measured. A 1996 Gallup poll showed that 72 percent
of the U.S. adult population believes there is some form of
extraterrestrial life, and 45 percent believes the Earth has
been visited by extraterrestrial life. There are indications
that public opinion about extraterrestrial visitation is similar
in other regions of the planet. The proportion of
extraterrestrial-sensitive world youth may be even higher than
the adult populations who believe in an extraterrestrial
presence.

Nearly 100 million adult humans in the United States of America
(45 percent of the adult population) believe that
extraterrestrial civilization has visited Earth. Approximately
100 million U.S. citizens vote in a U.S. Presidential election
(the U.S. Federal Election Commission reports that 96,277,634
people voted in the 1996 presidential general election)! About
100,000,000 persons voted in the disputed 2000 U.S. Presidential
election.

It is safe to assume that the 100 million US adults who believe
in extraterrestrial life could not all be delusional,
pre-programmed, or brainwashed. These extraterrestrial-sensitive
humans are responding to something they sense is true, deep in
their intuition - that extraterrestrials have visited Earth. It
is also safe to assume that human intuition is reality-oriented
enough to filter out false propaganda from Universe reality. For
example, some extraterrestrial "visitations" are actually
psychological warfare operations conducted by human
military-intelligence agencies.

From "Exopolitics: A Decade of Contact"
by Alfred Lambremont
Webre, JD, MEd

http://www.ecologynews.com/exoone.html

If he keeps it up, he may well put Mr. Ickes in the shade.

Surely you do understand, Sir, that the sort of stuff you are putting up on this subject is utter nonesense?

[satori]

52. Bhopal disaster expert -Background on the HAARP Project

Background on the HAARP Project
Earthpulse Press
November 5, 1996
By Rosalie Bertell
PhD, GNSH

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/weapons.htm

Dr. Bertell directed the International Medical Commission - Bhopal which investigated the aftermath of the Union Carbide disaster in Bhopal, and of the International Medical Commission - Chernobyl, which convened the Tribunal on violations of the human rights of victims in Vienna, April 1996.

_________________________________________________


Military interest in space became intense during and after World War II because of the introduction of rocket science, the companion to nuclear technology. The early versions include the buzz bomb and guided missiles. They were thought of as potential carriers of both nuclear and conventional bombs. Rocket technology and nuclear weapon technology developed simultaneously between 1945 and 1963. During this time of intensive atmospheric nuclear testing, explosions at various levels above and below the surface of the earth were tried. Some of the now familiar descriptions of the earth's protective atmosphere, such as the existence of the Van Allen belts, were based on information gained through stratospheric and ionospheric experimentation.

The military implications of combining these projects is alarming. Basic to this project is control of communications, both disruption and reliability in hostile environments. The power wielded by such control is obvious. The ability of the HAARP / Spacelab/ rocket combination to deliver very large amount of energy, comparable to a nuclear bomb, anywhere on earth via laser and particle beams, are frightening. The project is likely to be "sold" to the public as a space shield against incoming weapons, or , for the more gullible, a devise for repairing the ozone layer.

According to Defence News, April 13 - 19, 1992, the US deployed an electromagnetic pulse weapon (EMP) in Desert Storm, designed to mimic the flash of electricity from a nuclear bomb. The Sandia National Laboratory had built a 23,000 square metre laboratory on the Kirkland Air Force Base, 1989, to house the Hermes III electron beam generator capable of producing 20 Trillion Watt pulses lasting 20 billionths to 25 billionths of a second. This X-ray simulator is called a Particle Beam Fusion Accelerator. A stream of electrons hitting a metal plate can produce a pulsed X-ray or gamma ray. Hermes II had produced electron beams since 1974. Thes devises were apparently tested during the Gulf War, although detailed information on them is sparce.

[rhite5]

46. Wow!! e/m

[Padraig18]

49. Should I wear my tinfoil shiny side out, or shiny side in?

:tinfoilhat:

[The Magistrate]

53. This Piece, Mr. NAO

Is the sort of circle game represented by a snake eating its tail.

There are persons who speculate on the possibility of doing some of these things, regardless of how ill-founded these speculations are.

Some persons pursue these speculations physically, albeit into dead ends.

Word of this reaches someone who has some interest in presenting an apocalyptic picture, who can then claim people are "trying" to do these things, conveniently ommitting mention that these attempts have heretofore always ended in failure, and can be expected to continue to end in failure.

Nothing whatever is provided to suggest any of these efforts have succeeded, or even can succeed.

[NAO]

69. I believe the earthquake was natural, but that profiteering will occur

My considered, rational opinion is that the earthquake/tsunami was a natural event, but that it will be exploited for profit by private companies. That opinion was posted here:

Tsunami Aid-Will it be used by Multinationals / IMF to exploit & privatize
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2896247&mesg_id=2896247

I've reiterated that opinion in responses to this thread:

Companies like Bechtel or Halliburton could rebuild, then privatize system
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2898280&mesg_id=2898364

quake is most likely completely natural - but it could STILL be exploited
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2898280&mesg_id=2898405&page=

I have made multiple efforts to stress that point.

I had thought about a speculative post on the man-made possibly, but on reflection I considered it too outre for any serious consideration.

But when I happened on that quote from the Secretary of Defense, though, I considered THAT to be worth posting. Not that I gave very much credence to the notion, but merely that someone high in the U.S. government could make such a statement seemed worth of discussion.

[The Magistrate]

70. Profiteering, Sir, Will Certainly Occur

Both pecuniary and political; in that we are in absolute agreement. There is, regretably, nothing our current arrangements cannot coin into money, that goes into pockets already bulging....

[democracyindanger]

56. Read the entire piece for chrissake.

He is talking about FALSE THREATS and how they can occupy or paralyze intelligence agencies. You know, like TINFOIL HATTING fills DU with everybody's wild ass theories, and buries threads on real issues.

When Cohen says, "So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations" the "ways in which they can wreak terror" aren't supervillain earthquake machines--it's GETTING PEOPLE TO THINK THAT THEY'RE WORKING ON A SUPERVILLAIN EARTHQUAKE MACHINE.

Good fucking grief.

[Tinoire]

59. Please point out that part . His words are clear - "It's real"

Please point that part & tie it into his very clear words "It's real".

"...Others are engaging even in an eco-type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, setoff earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves...

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important."

[The Magistrate]

61. It Does Seem, My Friend

A not unreasonable reading of the general thrust of his remarks. He begins with mention of the harm that false threats can do, then lists several such as explicitly false. In the context, particularly since he states people are trying to achieve capabilities but ommits any mention they have achieved them, that he is speaking of the neccessity to be on guard against even remote possibilities, and not clear and pressent threats. Ingenious minds certainly know that false threats are a very effective means of disorienting and disrupting an opponent; that is an ancient strategism.

"A threat is generally more effective than its execution."

[Tinoire]

64. No lol my friend, I'm going to need the specific quotes

you're basing that argument on. I work with scientists daily. These things are not new and they're not unknown. Cohen is no more of a nut than Kucinich. They know what's out there. Please see the post I just made a few seconds ago. The tecnology & means exist to do this already.

[The Magistrate]

67. Here Is The Whole Of The Relevant Passage, Ma'am

Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.

A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves.

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.



People are just going to have to read it and judge for themselves....

[democracyindanger]

62. Read the transcript

The question regards false scares. Cohen's answer is about false scares. Cherry picking phrases out of the transcript may support a fear that Dr. No is producing his supervillain earthquake machine on a remote Pacific island, but doesn't make it any more real.

But hey, let's not talk about national health care, social security banditry or Iraq.

Let's talk about supervillain earthquake machines.

[Tinoire]

65. I have read the transcript. Please provide the quotes

on which you are basing your conclusion because I don't agree with it at all.

[democracyindanger]

71. K

"The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat..."

Cohen then goes on to list various things to elucidate what he means by a "false scare."

That's it. I'm done kicking this thread. Believe what you want, but fear of a supervillain earthquake machine is GI, and GIGO.

[Tinoire]

74. The key in that is "just the false scare of a threat of using"

the emphasis is on word "using". Nowhere does he say the threat is false. It's the false "use", the threat to use something very real that he's talking about. These questions were asked after fake anthrax letters had just sent Washington into a panic. That's an example of a "false scare of a threat of using". There was no anthrax in those letters -it was threatening, it was calculated to scare, but anthrax itself was very real.

we're going to see information continue to spread as to how these weapons can be, in fact, manufactured in a home-grown laboratory, as such. So it's a serious problem as far as living in the information age that people who are acquiring this kind of information will not act responsibly, but rather act in a terrorist type of fashion.

Cohen was justifying the need to "really intensify our efforts" and goes on that

"we're going to identify those 120 cities and work with them very closely to make sure that they can prepare themselves for what is likely to be a threat well into the future."

We've seen by way of example of the World Trade Center the international aspects of international terrorism coming to our home territory. We've also seen domestic terrorism with the Oklahoma bombing. So it's a real threat that's here today. It's likely to intensify in the years to come as more and more groups have access to this kind of information and the ability to produce them.

[The Magistrate]

75. Another Key, Ma'am

Is "Alvin Toffler has written...."

Mr. Tofler is one of those peculiar purveyors of speculative fiction known as "futureologists", and for the record, his predictions have not proved particularly sound; he has had the misfortune to survive longer than some of his early works....

[bpilgrim]

81. isn't he winger? - n/t

peace

[The Magistrate]

84. He Has Always Struck Me As One, My Friend

The whole trade, of course, to my mind, reeks of misplaced comedien.

"The future is hard to predict, on account of it ain't happened yet."

[Tinoire]

90. Democrat. Third Way type

Seems Third Way is derived from Toffler's Third Wave. Scary.



The question some may be asking, is just how vulnerable is the Republican Party to this socialist philosophy. Surprisingly, Democrat Alvin Toffler singled out the Republican Party, not the Democratic Party, as the preferred Third Way party. Why? Because the Republican Party had the largest contingency of centrists and moderates - perfect fodder for a scheme which thrives on compromising politicians, rather than dedicated ideologues to the left or the right.

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0400thirdway7.htm

[The Magistrate]

92. Rather A Poor Eye The Fellow Has, Eh, My Friend?

Since the Republican Party thrives entirel on hard right ideologues....

[Tinoire]

83. That's a point you'd have to take up with Secretary Cohen

but I don't find the mention of Toffler inappropriate at all, not in this context.

Look at what he said, "Alvin Toffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races."

All he's saying there is that many of the events Toeffler had described in his book "Future Shock" had happened. And they had so the mention is most fitting.

And I remember reading how he had predicted that we were going to see time itself speeded up by events; that we were going to see our values and our culture just kind of shaken in this hurricane wind of change, and that events would go faster and faster.

But shortly after I finished up law school, Alvin Toffler started to become quite popular, and I remember reading his first book, "Future Shock." And I remember reading how he had predicted that we were going to see time itself speeded up by events; that we were going to see our values and our culture just kind of shaken in this hurricane wind of change, and that events would go faster and faster.

In fact, that is the name of a book by James Gleick, "Faster," in which we see that we are entering this nano-second world. John and I were talking about this on the plane. We are processing information at such an incredible speed that it is even more incumbent that we try to step back and have some appreciation of the past. Because if you're simply rocketing your way into the future without any sense of history, then you don't have any roots, you don't know if the direction you're taking is the right one or the wrong one.

I think about the nano-second world in which we're living, and I go back to the days when I was serving in the Senate with John. In 1989, I was the vice-chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence in the Senate. Mikhail Gorbachev was at that point putting the finishing touches on his five-year economic plan. The Berlin Wall was still in existence and it divided the Europeans, and Germany in particular.

Today the Soviet Union no longer exists, and a piece of that Berlin Wall actually is hanging in the Pentagon on a trophy case behind a piece of plastic as a memory of what had divided Europe for so long before that Iron Curtain -- in Churchill's phrase -- had come ringing down. Poland and Hungary, the Czech Republic are now part of NATO. And the countries lining up to get into NATO would almost resemble the waiting line for the next Harry Potter book.
In 1989, our relations with China were at a very low level, following the massacre at Tiananmen Square. Today we see that we have granted China permanent trading relations and they are about to enter the WTO . I was in China again in July, and tomorrow morning, as a matter of fact, I'll be hosting a top Chinese general at the Pentagon office to explore ways in which we may continue to cooperate on a military-to-military level in order to engage the Chinese in productive ways.

In 1989, the thought of dialogue with the North Koreans was virtually impossible. And just a week or so ago, Secretary Albright was in Pyongyang meeting with the so-called "Great Leader," Kim Jong Il. We are now exploring whether or not we can have a more productive relationship with the North Koreans. And, of course, that has been a key flashpoint for us to be concerned about since we have some 37,000 uniformed Americans serving in South Korea, and another 45,000 in Japan. So we should be concerned about what would happen should conflict ever break out on the Korean peninsula.

So things are changing rather dramatically. The economic situation has been almost completely reversed during the past decade. I recall reading books at the beginning of the '90s saying, "America: What Went Wrong?" or "Age of Diminished Expectations" or "The Rise and Fall of Great Powers." Today we have the strongest economy, certainly in recent times, and we have our two presidential candidates who are debating on how to spend the surplus, which at this point doesn't exist, of course, but nonetheless, we're debating about the surplus and not about the deficit. So there have been remarkable changes in a very short period of time.

In the early 90s I used to read about this abstract notion of -- and it was always in quotes – a "linked world." Today we have humanity tied together by 7 billion hyper-links on the web.

And so you can see how rapidly the world is turning, faster and faster. And we can look to the Middle East and see how quickly things can become undone. You had seven years of painstaking efforts on the part of the administration, working with the Israelis and the Palestinians, to try to achieve a peace agreement. And in a matter of moments, hours, days, it all became unraveled.

Remarks as Delivered by
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen
Monday, October 30, 2000
Transcript provided by the Department of Defense

http://www.glenninstitute.org/glenn/lectures/cohen.asp

[The Magistrate]

87. Mr. Tofler's Record, Ma'am

Is no better than the National Enquirer's yearly psychic panel. In all cases of "prophecy" without exception, the claim of accuray is based on a few hits out of many misses, and the number of hits is never in excess of what would be expected by random occurance. If Mr. Cohen sets store by this particular seer, that is nothin more to me than if he should consult an astrologer on his love life, or participate in seances.

What is interesting, though, is that the definite statement these things are being done follows clearly after the mention of Mr. Toffler's writings, and so suggests it is his speculations, and nothing nmore, being referenced.

[Tinoire]

91. What does prophecy have to do with this lol, he mentioned an author

the same way others mention H.G. Wells when they talk about how far we've advanced. Nothing strange in that. But I've made my point and am not going to go off on these tangents ;) I'll let the readers/lurkers make up their own minds. It's been pleasant but I'm off to bed now. Good-night my friend.

[democracyindanger]

79. Those quotes

are not in question.

I have no doubt that they are Cohen quotes about the very real anthrax attacks. But they are not from his answer regarding the false anthrax attack against B'nai B'rith in the OP.

And I hate myself for kicking this thread.

[Tinoire]

85. Then make your case. That entire session starts with

false anthrax attack against B'nai B'rith and continues on with the possiblility of other threats elsewhere. If you disagree with me, then please, show me your reasoning.

[democracyindanger]

88. For the last time

The entire Cohen answer is about false attacks, and the possibility of other false attacks, including ones based on supervillain earthquake machines. That's about as simply as it can be put. But like I said, if you want to believe that the tsunami disaster was caused by a supervillain earthquake machine, have at it. GIGO.

[Tinoire]

93. Ok, you're right, lol. Cohen was just babbling

In the same week of huge anthrax panic, he had nothing better to do than bring up imaginary villains and their "supervillain earthquake machines". Clinton's Secretary of State had a bit more serious than that.

I'm off to bed now but I'll check tomorrow to see if you can show me where in his speech, with quotes so I can follow your train of thought, where he said what you insist he said.

[democracyindanger]

94. Maybe I'll just

pull quotes that Cohen made on other occasions and try to pass them off as having been made at the same time as the ones in the OP in order to bolster my argument.

[Tinoire]

63. Cornell Ph.D. - "Earth Probe Plan Would Blast a Path to the Core"

David J. Stevenson
George Van Osdol
Professor of Planetary Science, CalTech
Ph.D., Cornell University

A Caltech scientist has proposed sending a grapefruit-sized probe into the Earth's core through a 12-inch (30-centimeter) rift in the Earth's crust. The probe would descend in a mass of molten iron, traveling much in the way lava moves through volcanic fissures, only in reverse

(snip)

David J. Stevenson of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena outlines the plan in the May 16 issue of the scientific journal Nature.

(snip)

Stevenson calculated that the energy required to create the crack to launch the probe would be equivalent to a few megatons of TNT, an earthquake of magnitude 7 on the Richter scale, or a nuclear device such as those already possessed by many nations.

It may also be feasible to make use of existing favorable stress environments in the Earth and to avoid the use of nuclear devices, Stevenson said in his paper. "The technological challenge of initiating the crack should be less than that posed by the Manhattan Project," he said, referring to the code name for America's first atomic bomb.

(snip)

Million Tons of Molten Iron

According to Stevenson, the crack that will have to be blasted into the Earth's surface to launch the probe will need to be several hundred meters in depth, and about a foot (30 centimeters) wide, to accommodate a volume of about 100,000 to several million tons of molten iron.

The instant the crack opens, the entire volume of iron will be dropped in, completely filling the open space, he said. Through the sheer force of its weight, the iron will create a continuing crack that will open all the way to the planet's core 3,000 kilometers (1,800 miles) below. Anything on a smaller scale may not work; anything larger will be even more expensive, so Stevenson thinks a crack of those dimensions is about right.

"Once you set that condition up, the crack is self-perpetuating," Stevenson said. "It's fundamentally different from drilling, where it gets harder and harder—and eventually futile—the farther you go down."

(snip)

"Each of the principles involved is based on sound knowledge of crack propagation, fluid dynamics, mechanical-wave propagation, and 'stress states,'" Stevenson said. "If these things didn't already work in nature, we would have no volcanoes and poorly performing bathroom plumbing, but little to fear from a pebble shattering our windshields."

The biggest question should not be the cost, but whether we should pursue the goal of exploring Earth's interior, he said. "That said, I'd suggest we do it if we can keep the cost under (U.S.) $10 billion."

(snip)

This proposal is modest compared with the space program, Stevenson said, and may seem unrealistic only because so little effort has been devoted to it. "The time has come for action."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0514_030514_earthcore.html

And this from an unclassified source from a PH.D. in Planetary Sciences not employed by the government without a trillion dollar lab and unlimited resources.

So yes Virginia, the technology is there. And you want to trust the criminals in charge not to pursue these things?!
Things that make thinking people go "hmmmm".

[The Magistrate]

66. No, Ma'am, It Is Not

This is a highly speculative idea, that perhaps could be made to work, at least through the crustal layers. The suggestion that the neccessary opening wedge be provided by "100,000 to several million tons of molten iron" is sufficient to indicate the thing is at blue-sky, and not even ball-park, stages of development: if a contractor told you it would cost anything from one thpousand to thirty thousand dollars to renovate your kitchen in an already specified manner, what would your reaction be? How the iron is to be kept molten as it sinks initially remains unspecified, and interests me strangely, as the stuff cools fairly quickly.

People propose a lot of things, and do so accompanied by reams of paper suggesting their feasibility; there are proposals for vertical shafts to orbital heights, for vast reflecting mirrors in orbit to gather solar power, and other things that seem quite unlikely ever to be practical. Having been brought to expect a future with atomic reactors and private auto-gyros in every garage, and vacations on the moon and mars, my own patience in such matters has been largely exhausted....

[Tinoire]

72. With all due respect, I'll believe a respected Prof of Planetary Sciences

before the sceptics on this board ;)

He specifically stated that we already have the technology to initiate that crack. There's nothing speculative about that. Nature magazine, like Science magazine are highly respected in the scientific community and don't publish musings or conjectures. People's scientific reputations are on the lines so they tend to avoid anything that would get them laughed at.


How much are you willing to trust the Bush Cabal to not pursue these things?

[The Magistrate]

73. Again, Ma'am

The tremendous variance in estimates of required weight indicate a speculative stage of development.

The problem of maintaining great quantities of iron in a molten state is very real, and not, for that matter, something that rests within the purview of earth sciences.

[Tinoire]

80. Your credentials my friend? But still, that's not the point relevant to

this particular discussion.

The point here isn't about molten iron, or doing a scientific probe; it's about the ability to create a crack with the technology we already possess. That's what people have been pooh-poing and experts, Stevenson in this case, say it can be done. I highly doubt the Bush cabal is interested in probing the core when they could have so much fun using the technology to do what they love best- make perverse use of perfectly respectable science.

This is the relevant part of the article I find relevant:

Stevenson calculated that the energy required to create the crack to launch the probe would be equivalent to a few megatons of TNT, an earthquake of magnitude 7 on the Richter scale, or a nuclear device such as those already possessed by many nations.

It may also be feasible to make use of existing favorable stress environments in the Earth and to avoid the use of nuclear devices, Stevenson said in his paper. "The technological challenge of initiating the crack should be less than that posed by the Manhattan Project," he said, referring to the code name for America's first atomic bomb.

[The Magistrate]

82. The Mechanics, Ma'am, Are Very Much The Point

The good professor feels the thing could be done, but presents his proposal in a way that makes very clear it is a speculative proposal, and not a concrete one. You seem to wish to treat it as an accomplished fact, and that is something this proposal is far, far short of.

In the point you have highlighted, it is clear that the reference is to energy equivalents, and that it is not being suggested that the thing is to be accomplished by detonation of a nuclear device; that is simply mentioned as a means to give readers a sense of the scale of energy required. If viewed as equivalent to a level seven Richter event, the few megatons of TNT needed would be around thirty....

[Tinoire]

86. The mechanics are not the question- the technology is.

That's what all the pooh-pooing has been about. That the technology doesn't exist. I'm showing that it does. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this :)

I have no doubt that if the technology exists to do such a thing, Bush and his friends will have no problem taking care of the mechanics.

[The Magistrate]

89. Technology Is Mechanics, Maa'm

The good professor is somewhat unclear on what precisely would be required to actually carry out his idea. It is certain it has not been carried out. Nor is penetrating a great depth into the earth even remotely the same as the causation of an earthquake of serious magnitude.

We will certainly have to agree to disagree on the matter....

[whistle]

96. So the republicans decided to ignore one of their own....

...and blew it.

[electric-eye]

97. Holy F**k. Its Insane. Its perfect.

Keeps the fear real, they can show pictures of any token aid to victims and claim the great compassion of bushica, they can claim that this or any "act of God" was caused by a particular terrorist group, and demands our immediate, withering response. We can bomb anybody for any reason - as long as we blame an earthquake of volcano eruption on them.

If such things exist, and evidently Cohen thinks they do, then the US definitley would have the technology, surely in its most advanced form. And that would be a tool available to whoever's in office. I don't doubt these maniacs would use it as soon as it was the easiest way to get something done. The question is, does the technology exist? Cohen's asking you to believe it does.

Sure would be a great tool for a criminal gang who had seized control of the most powerful military on earth and was bent on world domination.

If its real at all.