How many people here believe humans are the highest form of intelligence

[jdj]

in the universe?

Seriously, I was reading in a book on Buddhism last night about humans being adrift in a seemingly meaningless universe, and it made me shiver. I seem to switch back into atheism from agnosticism every once in a while so I'm curious what people believe about God or a higher being or lack there of, and the scary possibility we are at the top of the brain chain.

[Maple]

1. In the universe? No

Even on just this planet, it's iffy. :D

[villager]

5. Twain refers to us as "the lower animals"

He has a great essay in "Letters From the Earth," where he contructs a proof showing an Anaconda snake is a higher from of life than an English Earl. The former only ate other creatures when it was hungry. The latter indiscriminately shot buffalo from a moving train, for the "sport" of it.

[Rockerdem]

12. We dont know all the answers and this is one of them

We have no idea whether or not something higher exists - pure speculation that could go one way or the other.

[Starlight]

2. No, definitely not.

The genius of the human race is just one more pathetic freeper fantasy. :silly:

[saltpoint]

3. If the sample is someone like --

-- Bill Moyers or Susan Sontag, we look pretty good.

If it's Bill Frist or that nutbag judge from Alabama, well, then not so good.

Dolphins seem much smarter than people.

I don't believe we're God's best science project. More like God is OUR science project. And there's plenty of room for improvement.

[HeeBGBz]

4. Dolphins

They just don't have much defense against us.

[evolvenow]

10. Yes, dolphins and whales much higher intelligence.

I personally feely that animals are teaching us unconditional love and how to live in balance with Nature and each other. If only we could pay better attention and act as guardians.

[DireStrike]

25. Oh, unconditional love. Is that why they gang-rape other dolphins?

They're not better than us, IMO. They're certainly inspirational though, in general and most of the time. A lot like humans.

[Jesus H. Christ]

36. They're cuter

while they're gang raping others. So that makes it OK.

Sarcasm off.

[Skidmore]

85. They do WHAT???

[Must_B_Free]

44. maybe it's just gang love

[evolvenow]

56. Your source? Dolphins have been decimated around the world,

plus they are very sexual. In the ocean, they have no safety, under constant threat from humans, and sharks. Their gestation periods have shortened around the world, just trying to outlive the massive killing. So your interpretation, might consider survival into it.

Dolphins are not cartoons, they are individuals, capable of aggressive and protective behaviors, just like humans...there are those who are stronger, more dominant, and the males travel in pods, sound familiar?

Overall, they are highly intelligent, and do not exterminate thousands of dolphins, nor do they poision their environment, and there are many documented stories throughout history of babies, children, and adults rescued by dolphins.

[Jose Diablo]

63. Documented life saving by Dolphins

"and there are many documented stories throughout history of babies, children, and adults rescued by dolphins."

Yes, this is true. But are there any documented stories of dolphins killing babies, children and adults by pushing them further out to sea rather than closer to shore? I doubt it because who would know if the dolphin killed them, they would be dead. The reports of dolphins saving humans doesn't necessarily mean the dolphins are benevolent toward humans.

As for the lack of reports about dolphins massively killing other dolphins, true. But maybe they don't have the ability to accomplish this feat.

It would be interesting if dolphins could speak, hopefully in a civilized language like English, so we could test them to see if they have minds more or less like ours.

[evolvenow]

86. There are no documented stories of dolphins killing people..IMHO

in the wild. I have spent time with whales and dolphins around the world, studied and written books about this, for over 10 years. The only example that I have found, was in captivity, it was a killer whale and the trainer. If you have spent time with dolphins and whales in the wild, and then observed the absolutely horrific conditions these intelligent, highly social marine mammals are subjected to, it is extraordinary, that this was a very isolated case. There are many, many stories of dolphins rescuing humans. I could be wrong, as you say, there could be events that we do not know, but I have been with hundreds of dolphins, and never have I felt afraid, nor was I ever harmed, and they are extraordinarily strong, and capable of attacking sharks.

Disclaimer: I do not suggest to anyone to swim with dolphins/whales...they are wild animals, there are sharks, undercurrents, jellyfish. Please so not ever disturb wild animals, esp. killer whales. Keep a healthy respect:)

Here is a quick Google: dolphins, saved, babies, children, swimmers

Results 1 - 10 of about 667 for dolphins, saved, babies, children, swimmers. (0.17 seconds) 

CBC News: Dolphins save swimmers from shark
... coast of New Zealand may have been saved from a ... group of aggressive males or dolphins
protecting their baby. The dolphins bunched the four swimmers together by ...
www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/ 2004/11/24/dolphin_newzealand041124.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

ABC.com - Message Boards
... minutes after she came up, she went back to get her baby to show ... Did you hear about
the group of dolphins a couple of weeks ago who saved lifeguards far ...
forums.go.com/abc/thread?threadID=153286 - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

News - Oddly Enough - Dolphins Shield Swimmers From Shark (AP)
... Posted Tuesday, November 23, 2004, 5:00 pm. WELLINGTON, New Zealand - A pod of dolphins
saved a group of swimmers from a predatory 10-foot great white shark off ...
oddnews.orb6.com/stories/ ap/20041123/life_saving_dolphins.php - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

A GROUP FOR ANIMAL LOVERS AROUND THE WORLD
... December 23, 2004 - FOR CHILDREN CUTE, 1, MSN Nickname ... men from shark, 1,
Betty-Boop-Baby, 12/6 ... November 24, 2004 - Dolphins saved swimmers from killer shark ...
groups.msn.com/ AGROUPFORANIMALLOVERSAROUNDTHEWORLD/page4.msnw - 51k - Cached - Similar pages

November 30, 1998
File Format: Microsoft Word 97 - View as HTML
... Dolphins saved four swimmers from a shark recently, but do ... Johnjoe McFadden says
that for dolphins to act ... John Moores University found that babies who were ...
portal.surrey.ac.uk/pls/portal/ url/ITEM/EB22304985CA0EDBE0340003BA296BDE - Similar pages

Herald Sun: Fear saviour dolphins killed <26nov04>
... weeks ago, a pod of seven dolphins saved a group of ... Ukraine opposition blocks HQ
Fear saviour dolphins killed Big ... to religious sect Woman 'threw baby out the ...
www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/ story_page/0,5478,11506694%255E1702,00.html - Similar pages

Sermon on Luke 2:11
... That baby in the manger is Savior and Lord ... The dolphins saved Howes from death ... fight
with your brothers or sisters -to share -to not pick on other kids and poke ...
www.trinitycrc.org/sermons/lk02v11b.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

Daypop Archives
... Dolphins saved us from shark, say swimmers, United States ... Dolphins protect swimmers
from shark, Sumanasa.com India ... A DOCTOR who treated twin babies rescued from ...
www.daypop.com/archive/newsburst/2004/11/24/0330 - 82k - Cached - Similar pages

Wild Dolphins page 4
... Boy From Drowning MANFREDONIA, Italy (Reuters) - A dolphin saved a 14 ... Happily, Olin
gave birth to a baby daughter on ... are doing a home page on dolphins,and are ...
www.southwest.com.au/~kirbyhs/dolphins4.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Ispis vijesti
... one transporting two dolphins and a baby walrus, collided. ... She is seven months pregnant
with her first child. ... weeks ago, a pod of seven dolphins saved a group ...
www.prijatelji-zivotinja.hr/htmlen/news.php - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

[klyon]

66. I agree with you

so I guess it depends on how you define intelligence, dogs do not do well on the SAT'S (but my cat might).

In the Multiverse we are probable average and way behind on knowledge curve. The dumbing down of our people isn't helping.

KL

[evolvenow]

6. There are intelligent humans, but we have quite a learning curve as a

group. I have spent time with wild dolphins and whales and find them to be profoundly protective of one another...and even extend their help to drowning people. We do the same.

Take heart in knowing that your compassion, recognizing the suffering of others, makes you conscious, and therefore, intelligent and looking for answers, reveals you as beautiful.

Look at the good and the bad and you will see that there is both.
That is painful, poignant and so challenging.

Take extra good care of yourself.
:hug:

[Old Mouse]

26. Walking in the now?

Good words. You remind me to work on my compassion.

[MindPilot]

7. most definitely not

we humans were lucky enough to combine opposable thumbs with the ability to metablolize protein very efficiently. Tools+cooked food=a big wrinkley brain. We are just another brick in the wall of evolution.

[alittlelark]

27. 'Another brick in the wall of evolution'

I really like that one.

[Reverend_Smitty]

8. Binobo Chimps...

are much smarter than humans...they share 98% of our DNA and they settle their differences by making sweet, sweet love. If you've never heard of them I suggest googling them!

[jdj]

9. yeah, I've seen those bonobos at work

you scratch my ______, I'll scratch yours.

[Az]

21. Actually

Binobo chimps are known to partake in some other human rites. Murder and rape are not unknown to them.

[SOS]

73. Rape, infanticide and murder

are not practiced by bonobos. They are not chimps.

“Bonobos, to the exact opposite of chimpanzees, live in female managed societies where violence is not tolerated" - D'Lynn Waldron.

[evolvenow]

11. Anyone else love "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn?

Excellent.

[Old Mouse]

30. I didn't like it

sorry to say...

[Silverhair]

13. Universe? No way.

There are billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars. There has to be somebody else out there.

On earth? Yep. It may not be fashionable around here to say that, but it is pretty obvious.

[jjmalonejr]

14. On the planet, yes.

These romantic posts about dolphins, whales and other primates are very sweet, but humans are more intelligent.

In the universe, though? Give me a break. That's pretty damn presumptuous.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

16. Hmm considering dolphins and other animals can understand human

"commands" or instructions and we haven't got a clue as to what a dolphin's or whale's song means...

I've never seen a depressed bird.

[Az]

18. Careful

Careful you don't get the location of the intelligence reversed. Dolphins don't get together and decide to figure out what those humans are up to. They get thrown in pools and then are conditioned to understand a few commands. Until a Dolphin catches a human and tosses one in a tank and then conditions it to understand its language it may be better to err on the side of the humans being more intelligent. Despite the Dolphins attempts to warn us of an impending hyperspace bypass coming through the area. They do like all the fish we give them though.

[merwin]

32. So we're more intelligent because we're stronger?

[Old Mouse]

33. they are not "conditioned"

they learn the meanings of the words.

I doubt a human in a rubber raft surrounded by clicking dolphins would ever learn their word for "danger"

[DireStrike]

35. That's a hell of an assertion.

I don't mean to sound venemous, but seriously... how can you know whether they know the meanings of the words, or are just conditioned? I know of no experiment ever designed that even purports to determine which it is.

[Old Mouse]

49. UCLA

extensive studies on animal language comprehension

[Az]

43. Again its the process by which we teach them

Not their natural inclination to learn different species language. And incidently humans do learn to read the intent of animals. Particularly if they spend sufficient time with them. Dolphins are also notorious for not trying to teach other species their language. If you are expecting to be fluent and understand all the nuances then you are going to be disappointed.

[Old Mouse]

52. language may not be what you think it is

I refer you to the work of Steven Pinker.
And both dolphin and orca have proven to learn the ways of humans faster than the other way around. Being forced to perform menial tasks under duress is no measure for intelligence. Columbus used similar rationalizations to objectify the Arawak Indians who although of a strikingly different philosophy, were hardly inferior.

[Az]

74. You seem to be under the impression

that I am claiming that there is a measure of highest intelligence. I disagree with this notion of measure. Each species has it's own particular focus and comparing them is pointless. Its not a contest.

That being said the learning capacity of a Human for human language far outstrips a Dolphin. The fact that a Dolphin can learn a limited level of interaction with humans is favorable to Dolphins but it does not create a situation that would suggest they are more intelligent than Humans on a scale set by Humans.

And again the methodology of learning a language bears a great deal on how quickly something will learn it. Humans deliberately trying to teach a Dolphin should expect to see more progress that from a Human trying to figure out a Dolphin's language without the Dolphin having an active means of conveying the operation of their language to the Human.

Who do you think will get through a maze faster? Someone with a guide or someone struggling on their own with no guide?

Comparing Dolphins learning a limited subset of our language by being taught and a Human trying to grasp the concepts of Dolphin language is not a good test of intelligence. Simply put. This does nothing to indicate which has higher intelligence.

[Old Mouse]

78. I am in heated agreement with you

about measuring intelligence. Cognitive function as "intelligence" is an arguable concept.

The incidents of dolphin-orca/tribal cooperation have always been dolphin instigated. And on a personal note, I once snuk into a facility and had time to play with a performing dolphin. He quickly taught me how to play the games he wanted to.

And there is no evidence our language ability outstrips a dolphins. We have only recently determined they have separate names for themselves, which should alone change our view of their social and personal philosophy. Our communication evolves by necessity, not capacity.

[Az]

15. What do you mean by highest?

On this planet we certainly seem to posess an extrordinary capacity for remembering and applying learned instruction sets and experiences. I am not even sure how an alien intelligence would be expressed. The criteria may be quite different. Suffice to say I have not come across any other species that can make apple pies as well as humans can.

Personally I have no need to be the highest intelligence. I would settle for us simply not being the only intelligence.

[slay]

17. No frelling way..

Only human ego and religious brainwashing could even make a person think such a silly thing. There is so much we don't understand that we, well, we just don't even know yet. Humans sure aren't looking too intelligent currently are we? I vote Dolphins. They seem happy and they can live in harmony with their environment. Not us. :eyes:

[Cats Against Frist]

19. I don't "believe" anything that I don't KNOW to be true, or at least well-

evidenced or documented. That said, if I had to THEORIZE, I would say that there are probably aliens or extra-terrestrials or whatever the hell you want to call them. As for God -- my official line on the "prime mover" is: who cares? As Thomas Jefferson, "I am a materialist, not a spiritualist," and the morality tale that is gleaned from Christian mythology is no different from lots of others: deferrence of the self as a means to transcend your animal nature.

What is intelligence, anyway? Like some people in the thread have said: those dolphins and whales are pretty smart. Of course, they don't live in a duplex and eat microwave popcorn, but who says what "intelligence" builds. We could be the dumb assholes destroying the Earth, while the little dolphins are just swimming around laughing at us, no?

[msmcghee]

20. Intelligence is vastly over-rated . .

It's just another adaptation like flying or fast running or sharp claws or the ability to digest leaves.

Just like each of those it has its advantages in some cases and becomes a liablility in others.

It's possible that we're close to the limit of the advantage of intelligence in our earhbound niche and the human population could well drop very fast due to some catastrophic event of our own (intelligence) doing.

[Az]

22. We are probably at the limit for primates

It has to do with our pelvis actually. Any increase in brain results in an increase in skull size. An increase in skull size results in an increase in death of birth mothers due to the limits of their pelvis. Thus we are the peak of the primate family. Damn pelvis.

[DireStrike]

28. Structural efficiency? More intel with the same brain mass, through

evolution.

Interesting about the pelvis though. At this point, if evolution decided to give us an increase in head size without corresponding changes in bodily structure, I think medical procedures would allow us to birth the children and preserve the moms for more kids. Or even remove the moms from the process completely (except for the eggs.)

And even if it couldn't, we could use the dropoff in population. It's not like we really need women to be producing more than one child at this point. At one child per two parents, with increasing lifespan, we cold probably keep up a pretty stable population. It would suck to be a girl though, and we'd probably see far less willingness to get pregnant. And there would be a lot of lonely men. Probably a lot of gay men too.

[msmcghee]

39. Intelligence doesn't necessarily correlate with . .

. . brain size. Humans had large brains long before we became intelligent.

William Calvin (Neuro-scientist) believes that the timing of being exposed to certain types of information when we are very young and the sequence of that information exposure can greatly affect adult intelligence. Also, that similar timing/sequencing techniques applied to education in general will result in greatly enhanced intelligence in future generations.

His research has shown that different areas of the brain become adapted for different functions based on those factors - and that some areas are far more efficient for certain things. By understanding this better we'll be able to increase the probability that the most efficient areas of the brain become used for what they are best at.

Geniuses are people with decent brains who fortuitously ended up with a good match of brain areas and function. That's why some geniuses are really smart in one area but can be average or below average in others. (This paragraph is my own speculation - not Calvin's, although he might agree.)

He believes that by harnessing this knowledge about the brain we can increase the overall average intelligence of the population - with the brains we have now.

Interesting stuff.

[Az]

40. A wide range is still possible

But a substantial increase in the average is presented by the biological limitation.

[msmcghee]

42. Did you mean "prevented"? n/t

[Az]

45. Yup

Good rye!

[msmcghee]

46. Never drink the stuff myself. n/t

[Az]

47. Doh!

Meant Eye! I don't brink.

[Old Mouse]

54. I did some work with people on brain placidity

to retard cognitive decline. But in my non-scientific opinion the same data that proved methods to increase cognitive function began to prove more and more of what we assume to be personality and character to be highly evolved instinctive traits.

[msmcghee]

69. Please explain further . .

. . I don't understand what you are saying.

Thanks

[Old Mouse]

76. similar neuroscience to what you reference

but with a slightly different conclusion. Language formants in the brain and access to such are the precursor to higher cognitive function. Controlled triggering of the brain's chemical reward sequence can in a sense "repair" degraded formants and foster new neural net growth.

But studying this and contrasting with modern marketing research starts to force an uncomfortable reexamination of what is commonly thought of as higher function.

[CHIMO]

23. Captain Paul Watson

Captain Paul Watson

The Good Pirate

Paul Watson was so close he got some of the whale’s blood on him. When the dying whale came up out of the water again, its huge head was above the rubber boat. Paul Watson looked into one of its big eyes and he felt that the whale understood what they were trying to do. He felt that it knew they had been trying to save it from the whalers. It could have fallen onto their little boat and crushed it, but instead it moved slowly backwards into the water before it died.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/TheGoodPirate.htm

[Kablooie]

24. We are apparently smarter than God...

.. because God seems to think that he created everything in six days and denies evolution.

[Taxloss]

67. That's if you presume to know what God's thinking.

He might be thinking "that Richard Dawkins really hit the nail".

[Kablooie]

68. Richard Dawkins is a carpenter?

[Taxloss]

72. LOL - sorry, it's an idiom, meaning "has got it right"

eom

[Old Mouse]

29. You say intelligence but mean consciousness, no?

And consciousness is a sliding scale both for species and individuals.

The primary aspect of the survival instinct is to convince an organism of its own superiority and importance, giving it the rationalization necessary to fully compete in a hostile environment. We are born instinctively thinking ourselves superior.

The higher the intelligence, the consciousness, the greater realization of comparative worth. The higher the consciousness, the lower the survival instinct.

[Benson]

31. As far as we know, YES! We are the smartest.

I haven't seen anything else even remotely as smart as humans.

The wheel, agriculture, and computers are all the result of some pretty smart thinking.

Now if ET ever shows up, I might have to revise my position, but until then, nothing comes close to humans.

Now "wisdom" is yet another matter...

[OneBlueSky]

34. hell, my dog is more highly developed than me . . .

he never complains, he's happy just to be fed or petted, he never worries about politics, his most important activity is play, he's grateful for everything, he loves everyone . . . and he never watches television news . . .

[AgadorSparticus]

38. my thoughts exactly!

[AgadorSparticus]

37. i don't believe that we are higher forms of life.

i think we, like all other forms of life, have a long road of evolution in front of us.

[Swamp Rat]

41. We were...

[Old Mouse]

57. Yeah, Swamp Rat!

Hiss gurgle braap to you, too!

[Annus Horribilis]

48. I Don't

I believe God is.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

50. lol, "scary possibility", you said it all right there! n/t

[drhilarius]

51. In the universe? No. In the Galaxy? Probably not. On earth?

Just barely. I've always considered the mark of high intelligence the ability to learn from mistakes. We, collectively, have a pretty shitty record on that count.

[jdonaldball]

53. At best, just lower than the Angels. Jesus, Muhammed...

...Shakespeare, Mozart, Oscar Schindler, Rumi, Moses Maimonedes, Lao Tzu, Siddharta, Chief Seattle, Nelson Mandela, Marcus Aurelius, Sophie Scholl, Simone Weil, Nadezhda Mandelstam...
...and here and now, all that matters for us is our condition on this Earth, not in some other galaxy.

[Old Mouse]

58. Chief Seattle?

Doc Maynard's Chief Seattle?

[jdonaldball]

64. Chief Seattle was a Native American who

sent a beautiful letter to the President in around 1850, asking him and the "new" people of America, always to love the land as his people loved it.
He knew the days of the Native Americans were ending, but he wanted to appeal to the new "owners" of the country, to love and respect the land - which was his greatest love.
I forget his exact lines, but his letter said something like,
"For my people, this Earth is our Father, and the Waters are our Mother" and he appealed to the White Americans to remember this forever, and his last line was, "We are all brothers after all."

[Old Mouse]

79. Please forgive me in advance

but I tend to be unpleasantly obsessed with myth-busting.

Chief Seattle, who did not speak English, did not actually pen the speech attributed to him in January, 1854. It wasn't even put to paper until 25 years after the fact.

It is a beautiful message, and worthy of praise, but Seattle most likely did not actually say it. The list of people you provided was so powerful a collection of dignity, creativity and philosophy that for someone who has studied the history of the city of Seattle, the Chief obviously did not belong.

[dutchdoctor]

55. Our intelligence level is not an evolutionary endpoint

Do you agree with me that intelligent thought in humans is the result of the firing of roughly 10 billion neurons, each connected to an average of 1000 other neurons?
In that case, it is probable that more neurons with more connections lead to the ability to grasp more complex problems. Of course this would lead to a bigger brain, and the problem for humans is that there would have to be a radical change in anatomy since the size of the newborn brain is limited by the diameter of the pelvis. Further increases in this diameter would affect our ability to walk and run.
But that's just because we evolved from primates, and in theory you could think of any number of solutions that evolution would (will?) eventually come up with

There are so many other planets out there, of course there will be some kind of life form that has more intelligence than we do.. Will we ever contact them? Probably not..

[Old Mouse]

59. You imply an evolutionary purpose

other than mastering an environment, no?

[dutchdoctor]

60. of course not

Evolution has no purpose, it just happens. But intelligence seems to give such huge evolutionary advantages that it is likely to appear in wnviroments where there is life. If not in all, then at least in some

[RC]

62. Aaaah...grasshopper, everything has a purpose.

The purpose of evolution is survival. Without survival everything else is pointless.

[dutchdoctor]

65. Nope. Survival is not the purpose, it's the result

Purpose implies that there is a direction to the whole process, but there isn't.

Evolution is just a process that automatically starts whenever the following are present:
-procreation (in wich organisms pass on certain traits)
-mutation (random variation when these traits are passed on to a next generation)
-selection (so that some individuals are better adapted to environment than others with different traits)

The result of these mechanisms is that species that are best adapted to the environment have a better chance of passing their traits to their progeny and therefore hese traits become more abundant.
But saying this result is the purpose makes the whole thing sound like it's something , "religious" or "magic", which it isn't.

[Boosterman]

75. as far as you know.

No offense meant but you dont know there's no purpose to it. Nor does anyone know for a fact there is a purpose to it.

[dutchdoctor]

80. You are right, there is no way of telling..

..whether it has some "higher" purpose, but that would be a theological discussion
The point is, however, that the process of evolution would be the same whether it had a purpose or not. It doesn't "need" a purpose to happen.

[Old Mouse]

82. but still you suggest endless forward evolution

When there is no further survival advantage, despite continued mutation no particular trait will be bred forth, and genetic disintegration will for all intents and purposes supplant the evolutionary process.

The limit to evolved intelligence, or any evolved trait, is mastery over the ecosystem of the species.

[Boosterman]

83. Ah now that I can agree with

the process is the same no matter the "origin" or "purpose".

[RadicalMom]

61. Gosh I sure hope not! We, generally, suck. n/t

[MissBrooks]

70. Believe vs. Know

I believe we are but I do not know it for certain.
There are not enough facts.

[genieroze]

71. Not by a long shot. eom

[Boosterman]

77. Dont remember the actual quote

but it goes something like this "Intelligent life in the universe? How would we know? We havent found it here yet."

[murray hill farm]

81. I believe that the greater intelligence is...

the collective intelligence..both conscious and unconscious. This is all the knowing that we have that is collective..or known on the earth..consciously, as in the gathered knowing that we presently have on earth and unconsciously..the stuff we know by instinct...and inner knowing. This would include also artificial intelligence..computors, humans, whales,dolphins..all that is on the earth..and it would include the earth itself..in the gaia theory sense of things..that connectedness of the earth to us all...and all of us to the earth.

[okieinpain]

84. sorry, the tsunami, and 11/02 prove that's the farthest from the

truth.