A plea to DUers, old, new and lurkers -

[mandyky]

Since we are being scrutinized by MSM and Fox (sorry Fox is not MSM in my book, concerning news) it might be wise to dial it back a bit. And I also would like to remind folks that being a Democrat is like herding cats. Not all Dems agree with all threads on this board.

Many of us are veterans, ourselves, and find the troop bashing threads as insulting as America as a whole.

Let's not bash troops because the media and the current adminiistration is using and abusing them. Once one signs on the dotted line to serve in the military, most of one's choices are made by other people. Jessica Lynch was not responsible for the propaganda they created around her "rescue", just as our troops are not responsible for shrub using them for his wants and whims.

[mmonk]

1. I agree wholeheartedly

[xultar]

2. mandyky Well Said and Thank you!! n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

3. Got any examples of troop bashing threads?

I'm sorry I haven't seen it here.

[mandyky]

8. There are 2 in GD right now

One about "God I love the troops" and the other "I hate to see the troops". Both by the same poster.

[Ganja Ninja]

16. Yeah I saw those but ...

I don't see a lot of whole hearted agreement with the poster. I suspect it's a freeper baiting us. It's not as if everybody at this site hates the troops when an idiot posts something and then gets flamed.

[mandyky]

19. Yeah, but idiots like Fox will make it sound like all Dems

believe this crap. This thread was as much to tel readers and lurkers that not all of us feel that way, as to ask folks to tone things back a bit. I do not want DU to get shut down, and I am sure there is some provision in the Patriot Act folks like Bill O'Liely and crew could use to request our shutdown.

BTW, I don't watch FOX or even CNN much, but I do know what they do on stories like this. Just as they played the Dean Scream a thousand times, they point to threads bashing troops, and blame all Democrats and this board for being "anti-American". My point is why give them more ammo to use against us.

[Ganja Ninja]

24. For all we know the poster is an idiot from FOX!

I wouldn't put it past them to plant something and then make a story out of it. Oh gosh there goes my tinfoil hat again.

[mandyky]

28. I agree with you on this point

When these "over the top" threads occur, I often wonder if it is not a freeper trying to make us look bad. I see most Democrats as compassionate and reasonable people. I also wonder about the age of some posters of this kind of bashing.

[bowens43]

26. Yes, let's just shut up and goose step into line..........

[Tansy_Gold]

74. Oh, yes, absolutely! Where do I line up?

Right behind Dan Rather? /sarcasm off/


Sorry, folks, and with all due respect to mandyky, but this is bullshit. The minute we start censoring ourselves, that's when the pukes have taken over DU.

[spanone]

63. Fox won't give DU an honest look regardless of what we do.

I wouldn't bend over an inch for Fox, CNN or any other operation.

[Democracy Died 2004]

64. So questioning the troops is bashing?

I can't keep up with all the new speak around here.

[MisterP]

67. if we do what you say, then they'll just make crap up

lose twice or lose once

[AngryOldDem]

9. The thread about Beliefnet;'s honoring Pat Tillman

...that appeared over Christmas week, if you want a specific example. It still disgusts me.

[tx_dem41]

11. I shared your disgust n/t

[radwriter0555]

79. How's THIS? I DO NOT SUPPORT US military thugs on MY payroll killing iraqi

people for a PAYCHECK.

Better yet, I WANT the MSM to KNOW that I don't support the new american nazis in iraq who are committing genocide for oil cos and a paycheck.

[Redleg]

91. Are you kidding me?

Spend a few months here and you will see them.

[annabanana]

4. I agree with you 100%.........but good luck

getting anyone here to ever "dial it down"... Just suggesting this is likely to get sparks thrown around. Once the kids are in the machine, their asses aren't their own.

[heretheycome]

5. ditto

I find the bashing of our troops insulting and disgusting

[bowens43]

27. and what do you think about 100,000 dead Iraqis?

[heretheycome]

29. honestly, I dont n/t

[Forkboy]

33. what a shock

[bowens43]

36. At least you admit it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. As a fellow vet, I agree 100%, mandyky!

:thumbsup:

[bluestateguy]

7. Some troops deserve to be bashed, some do not

Lyndie Englund and her SM partner boyfriend certainly deserve to be bashed, as does any soldier stupid enough to vote for Bush.

On the other hand, I accept that a good many of those troops realize this war is a fraud and that the neocon agenda is as dangerous to the world as Al Qaeda is.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. Well said, Mandyky

I try to stay out of those threads mainly because it gets my blood pressure up.

I can understand and empathise with someone who is genuinely a pacifist in all matters. It is a conviction. But those wo refuse to separate the warrior from the mission or to separate the military from the civilian leadership piss me off.

This was true when I served (60's) and has not changed since then.

[Democracy Died 2004]

12. i agree but conditionally.

Troops are American and have a duty to the constitution first and foremost. If they shirk their duties in this, then i have no use for them.

[mandyky]

15. Troops are not given a copy of the constitution

nor is the military a democracy. Military folks do NOT have the same rights as "normal civilians". Their job is to follow orders, or else.

[bowens43]

23. just following orders

is not a valid defense.

[Cuban_Liberal]

34. It is, if the orders are legal. n/t

[bowens43]

38. I agree but since the war itself is illegal it follows that every order

in support of the illegal action is illegal.

[tx_dem41]

42. So you are bashing all of the troops....

you weren't clear on that earlier. Now you're clear and I see where you are coming from. Thanks, for the clarification.

[bowens43]

53. The war is illegal. Participation is a crime.

[tx_dem41]

56. No need to say anything further....

I've got it figured out now.

[Cuban_Liberal]

51. The law doesn't work that way.

What is logical and what is lawful are two distinct matters.

[bowens43]

58. The war is a violation of Article VI of the Constitution

Article VI. - The United States

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United

[Cuban_Liberal]

59. I don't disagree at all.

My point is that that does not automatically make every order given illegal.

[Democracy Died 2004]

50. I don't agree with that either.

Being in the military does not make you an un-citizen. And the follow or else is not 100% true also.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[comsymp]

41. Hardly a secret

Faux = Murdoch - no surprises there~

MSNBC/NBC = General Electric.
GE PAC contributes nearly 2:1 in favor of R's.

GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt is a hardcore Repub supporter as well.
Open Secrets
Of course, GE's many http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm%3Ffmedia_id%3D9597%26fcategory_desc%3DMedia%2520Lies%2520and%2520Right%2520Wing%2520Bias&e=9901">lucrative military contracts have absolutely no bearing on this...

[secedeeconomically]

14. I have no idea what you mean my "dial it back"?

Who will the arbiter be of this "dial" of yours? In a democracy all ideas should be vetted. The good, the bad and the ugly. And in the end, a consensus is usually reached. Just because Fox has decided to hire some laky to just read this and other message boards in order to report back their Minister of Propaganda, shouldn't and will never detour me from posting what ever is on my mind.

[mandyky]

17. Use your own discretion

There is room for legitimate criticism, bashing troops is not helpful to our cause. There is a balance, and it is a personal choice. It was a plea, not an order, BTW!

[secedeeconomically]

18. You argument would be valid only if

we were operating in a fair and just world where ideas where properly analyzed. Unfortunately, FOX will fabricate the NEWS to confirm to their ideology. Therefore, what ever is said by progressives will be always be taken out of context the right.

I'm not trying to be a hard ass, but trying to set expectations.

[TheKingfish]

69. Why dont you switch to a Lieberman avatar?

Wouldn't that be dialing it back?

[mandyky]

73. Because I am a Dean Democrat

And I am merely suggesting folks think a bit before they hit that "POST" button.

[Jon8503]

78. Mandy, Dean Democrat here also. I agree with you that we all

should think about what we are posting before we hit the button just as we should before we send any email. If you are pissed off and are writing a scathing article, post or email. Print it out or something and read it in the morning before you send it. You might tweak it a bit if you do.

However, I was wondering where the info is about the FOX monitoring us. How do we know this is going on or what exactly is it. Had not seen or heard about this. Just curious.

I also think we should feel free to post our feelings about the political climate or whatever that is going on at the present and not change anything. Of course always use common sense.

Anyway thanks for the post.

[mandyky]

84. I read about the FOX stuff here (I refuse to watch FOX)

The NYT and other media news like CNN have also been mentioning us - I heard it on CSpan and read it here.

My original post was not to say not to criticize troops - like the Abu Gharib suspects and the Marine that shot the half dead Iraqi - it concerned 2 threads I saw this morning who were rough on our troops across the board. Since I am a veteran this stuff sucks - mostly because MSM paints all Dems or all DU posters with the same "hate our troops" crap!

I don't say these things like that Kelly Ann Conway after 9-11 - "watch what you say"; I say it as a proud Dem who does not want DU shut down because some supposed peace loving person says bad things about our military. I am sick of being painted as anti-American because I am a liberal. But many in this thread took what I said as censorship when I suggested thinking first. I never alerted the 2 threads I found offensive, I started this thread. Not exactly censorship.

[Jon8503]

85. I know what you were trying to say and it makes a good point. I

think we should always be doing that. I like you am a veteran and like you, a liberal and Dean Supporter. You are right that we are painted as anti-military, weak on defense, just look at the last election and Kerry was a veteran and hero. They still got the job done. That is why I am a Dean supporter because he knows how to fight and the current leadership of the democratic party I hope are taking a good hard look at themselves on how they managed to lose these last two elections. They had help of course with the media and the Supreme Court but I think we can win.

[Andromeda]

100. I agree with you 100%...

It's bad enough that our troops get their butts shot off in a foreign land but to have to put up with the slings and arrows on forums like DU is just a bit much.

If the naysayers want to take a potshot at somebody they'd better go farther up the ladder to get the attention of the ones who started this whole mess.

Our sons and daughters are risking their lives for a cause not of our making but they'e there now so support them and pray for their safe return.

[klyon]

20. Respect the Troops

I personally haven't seen any troop bashing treads. Troops follow orders and execute the plan of our leaders as foolish as they may be.

Respect the Troops bring them home
War is NOT the Answer

KL

[soothsayer]

21. what's msm?

[mandyky]

25. Mainstream Media

especially Cable News, but even the "liberal" NYT has picked this up..

[ebayfool]

101. Impressive, over 5000 posts since 2002 & you don't know what MSM means?n/t

[bowens43]

22. Troops that don't deserve respect won't get it from me.

Should we respect the guy who murdered an unarmed man as he lay on the floor wounded? Should we respect the troops who made naked pyramids? Should we respect troops who gleefully talked about killing civilians?

Respect has to be earned.

[tx_dem41]

30. Okay....you have singled out about 10-20 troops...

what about the other 140,000?

[bowens43]

35. what about them?

the troops who have been bashed here , in every case that I've seen deserved it.

[tx_dem41]

40. I saw Pat Tillman bashed mercilessly....

did he deserve that?

[Democracy Died 2004]

54. He deserved everything.

He bought into the lie then was honored as some kind of hero. In the end he was just another stooge in the bushco lie machine. If we had real heros in this war they wouldn't have to fabricate them. But because this is an illegal and unjust war everyone of them has blood on their hands and will never be a hero. I pity them their foolishness.

[tx_dem41]

57. You make me proud to be a DUer.

:eyes:

[smbolisnch]

70. Real nice. You should be pleased with yourself.

:eyes:

[Democracy Died 2004]

72. yes i am. eom

[Tansy_Gold]

77. If Pat Tillman had died trying to rescue others, if he had

died in some traditionally "heroic" role, I think it might be different, but lacking that distinction, I think I have to agree with you, DD 04.

Lot of "I thinks" in this post -- just opinion here, not facts.

Tillman seems to have been designated "hero" simply because he was a celebrity before he enlisted and because he died, more than likely killed unnecessarily by friendly fire. If he hadn't walked away from a fat NFL contract, would he still be a "hero"? :shrug: I dunno, and it may be that the nebulous origins of his hero status contribute to the debate.

Bottom line is that he volunteered for combat duty and he knew the risks. Was he doing anything heroic when he was killed, or was he just a victim whose prior celebrity, rather than his actions at the time of death, elevated him?

[Democracy Died 2004]

82. No one knows the risks.

Please believe me on this from first hand experience. I have beem in war. It is not what you expect and not something you should yearn for. It is death,destruction and fear like you have never known. ANYONE who would want that is touched in the head.

[Redleg]

93. What an ignorant comment.

Why have so many assfaces infiltrated DU?

[Democracy Died 2004]

103. I am not sure if i am ignorant,

But i had plastic surgery to remove my ass from my face. They can do the same for penis noses.

[Stinky The Clown]

45. Should we assume every Italian is a Mafiosa?

Should we assume every Italian is a Mafiosa?

Should we assume every Irishman is a drunk?

Should we assume every black person is shiftless and lazy?

Should we assume every Hispanic is an illegal alien?

Should we assume every Sotherner is a dumb L'il Abner?

The basic logic of your premise is just plain wrong.

[Lerkfish]

31. pointless. All that will happen is a freeper will post in cloak mode...

and say some outrageous thing so Fox will pick it up.
We could self-police all we want, and still be subject to that sort of trap. In fact, I imagine that's WHY the freepers are over here, cloaked, saying incendiary things, in coordination with the corporate media.

To muzzle ourselves is like chaining citizens so they won't look like criminals...doesn't work, and also leaves us more vulnerable to the actual criminals.

I'd much prefer to allow people to post as they wish, and endure the diversity of thought, even if it personally annoys me.

I know your intentions are good, but it sounds a bit eerie to me, like being collaborators with the nazis...you know, watch what you say so you don't tick off the fuhrer.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

32. Likely repukes dirty tricks’ postings to undermine DU creditability.

This will put some pressure on the moderators to pull the trigger a little faster on the more twisted posts. I love my freedom of speech but I want a sensible and credible forum to be used to advance the conscientious efforts to make the Democratic Party's agenda be one to help working class Americans. I am quite capable of requiring censorship myself when I become incensed by some of the aberrations propagated by the neo-cons but I can accept a criterion of basic human decency and ethical behavior thatwould require a moderator to act to prevent a distortion of this forum’s content and purpose.

[RetroLounge]

37. Then instead of making this "Plea"

just alert them.

One thread is already locked, and the other soon will be.

But thanks for bringing attention to two threads that were sinking like stones.

RL

[mandyky]

48. Several points

The plea was more than a plea, it was to remind "visitors" not to paint all Dems with the troop hating posters brush.

I did not alert the threads in question, because as long as they are a member of DU they have the right to their say.

I did not post the thread URLs because I did not want to call attention to them, at all. I did mention the titles when asked about them.

What I was hoping was we could have a discussion about moderating ourselves on some topics and to remind folks, that esp. now, we are being watched.

As a veteran, I also wanted to voice my disagreement without bumping the threads in question, and others like them..

[sam sarrha]

39. I agree,but i believe that there are some freeper plants that post on Que

for the "Media", not to say that there aren't some anti war members that are a bit miffed about the "Carnage" in Iraq.. for instance if they say they killed say 3000 insurgents in Iraq, then with some simple arithmetic one could figure out with the reports out thru the 'Lancet', for instance, that 95,000 civilians have taken it in the neck.. the unmentionable suffering, destruction and death caused by a pitifully run war started on lies and deception by the F'n Moron that sits as pResident, cannot be covered up by saying if we dont support the war we dont support the troops. I support the Troops and want them HOME NOW, but i do not the generals nor the Moronic wet brain alcoholic drug addict that builds Empires in the sand while hiding in his Bunker in Texas.

as for Fascist Murdock lapdogs, they are just grasping at straws for something to hype up and spin in an attempt to "Deodorize" the Government and its abominable failures and 'catatonic senate and congress'.. i expect to see them do a "Flag burning" trip again they are so desperate.. they are so hard up to "COVER UP" the failures of this UnGovernment they are using Nazi hate tactics minorities. They are presently trying to cover up any word about the TOTAL dismantling of the Textile Industry, where lately a Reich wing corporate lapdog judge ordered an injunction against any Tariffs against China {at the request of Pennies and Walmart while China illegally DUMPS Textiles at less than 1/2 the cost of the fabric alone}is being boxed up and sent to China, and it can never be replaced. there is a special provision in the WTO for tariffs against Chinese Textiles... and there has never been one net job gained with NAFTA, and well over a million lost to a country where the economy is 8th in the world.. the standard of living for the 'Haves'is higher then France, Mexico is exporting their poverty here to raise the standard of living there for the richest.. 10% of the population of Mexico has migrated to the united states.. and Bu$h is propping open the borders saying they dont take jobs...well 20 million migrants do take jobs.. why else do they come here?? if Bu$h's lips are move'n.. he is lying.

When Reagan was president there were 488 shoe factories, when he left there were 2. when Bu$h leaves there will be no textile industry, we will be at the mercy of China not to extort us by threatening to "CUT US OFF" if we interfere with their own Empire building...right here at home..they will be outsourcing soon to us for 27 cents an hour and there will be riots of people trying to get those jobs to feed their starving families.. we no longer have even the ability to retool factories if we had to. we are losing all the trained experienced people and the tools that can do the work.. this is now a matter of National Security..

The NEOCON's even back in Reagan's days.. which are the same ones in the cabinet, said "Our purpose is to shrink th government down the size where we can put it in a bathtub and drown{kill} it."

our government is being overthrown by people using a pitiful, pethetic, not very bright, and aparently not very healthy, person with unaddressed addiction problens whose only real goal in life is to be accepted by his father.

Not even Murdock and his minions can cover that up for the next 3 lame duck years. but they will try to scape goat us..that is for sure..

[rucky]

43. There comes a time when a person needs to stand up.

I'm sick of treating "the troops" as victims here. They need to refuse the illegal orders put upon them. They are the ones ultimately pulling the trigger.

Don't tell me that these aren't points for legitimate debate.

[Technocrat058]

44. There is only one problem!

I see a problem with this plan! If not all agree not to say bad things about the troops (which most would not have a problem with anyway) then how do you stop those that do not agree? Then they become the only people saying anything and thus (biased) news reporters would believe (obviously not knowing any better) that these voices spoke for all. As you can see this is precisely the problem that was trying to be avoided. Perhaps if some would agree to counter these people , or in the best case scenario, volunteer to say how the military has help our country (Specifically any veterans how would like to share their stories of great accomplishments of the military in help the worse for wear Nations-States of the world) This would be a good way to counter these dissidents.

[seabeyond]

46. veteran friend, i thank you for the service firstly, secondly

bashing comes in perspective. with the repugs, if we challenge bush we are bashing. whose barometer are we using to make sure we are not bashing the troops.

over a 100k dead and a shrug of the shoulders from a soldier. if we are offended by this, is this bashing the soldiers. chariot races prior to the slaughter (using slaughter) of fallujah, is that bashing

disgust at torture, is that bashing

i know that the way bush has ran the war and the attitude of hisself and the higher ups and the extention of tours have all created a negative enviroment and an unhealthy enviroment for our soldiers. because i say this, is this bashing the troops.

i agree with what you are saying, i dont need to be ugly to express. i am not angry, i live in the now and deal with what comes any given minute. i agree would be nice for all to be a certain way, just not gonna get it. regardless of the outside world reading here.

one more thing, doesnt matter what we give the outside world, we would only be disappointed if we put much stock in what is being said, they have already created their picture of what and who we are. we dont have a say in it. they will decide who we are and it wont be just or fair

[benburch]

47. Fuck that. I no longer care what they think.

This is a cold civil war. We have to upset SOMEBODY.

[stanwyck]

87. exactly

we're really doomed if we become so worried about what others think of us that we deny our beliefs in order to not offend.
The Boston Tea Party participants made some noise. So did the First Constitutional Congress.
We're not at etiquette class or charm school.
We're fighting for the future of our country.

[stanwyck]

49. Listen to me, I'm Mom

to a Marine who has been to Iraq and is going back this month. I post here all the time...I read the threads here daily. I'm very sensitive to attitudes towards the troops. And I've seen very little negativity aimed toward the men and women of the armed forces. We don't have to "dial it back". That's not fair. You're asking us to buy into the nationalism, not the patriotism, which is transforming our country from a strong leader to a bully.
Frankly, I share the skepticism others here have voiced when there is a troop bashing thread. I don't believe that sentiment fairly represents the average DUer. Remember, there are many who come here and start the "Now I'm no fan of Bush, but..." threads. There were several yesterday. Scrutinize carefully what is being said...but, please, don't ask us to start fluffing up our beliefs so Fox News won't use us for propaganda purposes. They will anyway. That's a given. It's this "go along to get along" philosophy which has hurt the Democrats. I'd like to see us bolder and, yes, more vocal. We support the troops. We support them by wanting better leadership and better foreign policies.
I respectfully disagree.

[seabeyond]

60. you said it much better than i did above

thank you stanwyck, being a mom of small boys who are safe, this has been a challenge for me. well not really, lol lol being that i love all our soldiers and wnat them home, or as you say at least leadership that will lead with the intent of good, not greed. thank you for your participation and what your son is doing, i know it is so hard

[murray hill farm]

68. From another mom with a son in Iraq..

thank u stanwyk for saying exactly how i feel...we can show common curtesy here in our comments, but the very worse thing we could do here is to censure opinions in order to play to the need for approval by the mass media.

[stanwyck]

88. We love our sons, we support

our sons. We don't support this administration. What is so difficult to understand? Why can't people get it? It's nationalism to support your country 100%...my government, right or wrong.
It's patriotism to want what is best for your country. And to stand up when it's headed in the wrong direction.
We're patriots. Not nationalists.
And yet we're supposed to behave ourselves and shut up.
Not likely.

[txaslftist]

52. I respect and admire the troops, but...

...Freepers and lurkers are going to post outrageous statements here and then draw the attention of the MSM and Faux News to them and say: "See how radical and out of control democratic underground is?"

It's a blatant attempt to marginalize dissent. Just as Adolph, with his fully controlled propaganda machine, demonized the jews during the late 30s.

Welcome the latter day Weimar.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. "Support our Troops" = Support the War

The same tactic was used by the right wing during Vietnam. "Our troops" were being abused by those unpatriotic commiehippiepinkos.

It's a bullshit PR ploy used by the warmakers to glorify militarism.

I don't support what "our troops" are doing in Iraq. They are killing people for the benefit of the capitalists who are enriching themselves and politicians who are happily waving the flag to stay in office.

If you can't see that the thin veneer of "Support of Our Troops" is really a con job for support for BushCorp and their war then you are beyond naive.

BTW USMC 1961-'65

[Redleg]

96. Not necessarily. One can support the troops by bringing them home

from Iraq and by not committing them to immoral wars.

[ScaRBama]

61. I agree....

some of the topics and post on the boards appear to be 12 year olds.

[MsTryska]

62. I think we should start a disinformation campaign.

from now on every thread title should bash fox and the MSM. with truth.

[bobbyboucher]

65. They can blow me.

Fuck 'em and the horse thye're afraid to ride in on.

[ChairOne]

66. LOL - let's not say anything CONTROVERSIAL....

... because that would make the MSM say mean and nasty things about us!

lol - That's SO different from what they do now....

Who cares about speaking freely - just so long as we tiptoe around, not making waves, and BY ALL MEANS do not piss off the mainstream media!

Fuck the media - I don't need their respect, they need mine.

sheesh.

[Jon8503]

80. So How Do We Know DU Is Being Monitored Anyway??????

Where exactly did this come from and how. Also, I posted earlier about using common sense but it also makes me think how during the Dem Campaign & Convention, be nice, dont bash the President and look what the hell happened at the Repuke Convention. The Swift Boat Veterans and on and on and on. We do have to stand up for what we believe in.

[TheKingfish]

71. Wow Great idea!

Dial it back like Rush and company have all these years. We can be the party of reason and everyone will support us...

[Catchawave]

75. I'm a "veteran" war protestor from the 60's....

..and nobody loved those troops more than the "hippies" who wanted to bring them home safe. I don't see any difference here and now.

Unfortunately, it's all so politicized that we're anti-troop and patriotic because we don't agree with the war NOW..oy.

By the way, I married a VN vet :)

[Lena]

86. I'm curious

about your hippie days, if you don't mind my asking you. If it wasn't anti-VN war hippie protesters doing the spitting on veterans and calling them babykillers, who was doing that? I do know that did happen to some veterans to be dehumanized when they returned home. I know personally some men it happened to.

I hesitate to ask, because I'm so new, I'm afraid I'll get tombstoned.

I see a huge difference today where no one would even THINK of an unfriedly welcome home after the war.

I don't mean to single you out Catchawave, but I'm curious about:

"..and nobody loved those troops more than the "hippies" who wanted to bring them home safe. I don't see any difference here and now."

[Catchawave]

102. I was in the DC area....

...we just "spit" on politicians:P I know some crazy radicals blamed the troops, thanks to the Jane Fonda led rallies, which was the peace movement's biggest embarrassment, and failure

No matter what they say about Iraq, it IS just like Viet Nam. Senseless killing of civilians and troops. I blame the pols for that too.

I agreed with Kerry then, and I do now also. Please read his testimony before congress, from 1971:

http://www.pbs.org/greatspeeches/timeline/j_kerry_s.html

[Solly Mack]

76. Let me count the ways I give a fuck what the right wing thinks

or what the so-called "free" press thinks....It doesn't matter what is said or not said on this board...the right wing will spin it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Fox runs a story headlined:

"Fox shames website into obeying"

simply because someone said Fox is watching...conform to things that will please them.

As if we are misbehaving in some way by sharing our opinions and concerns. Both the right wing and the "msm" are a bunch of bought and paid for whores...why would I care what they think

[MaraJade]

83. LOL

:toast:

My sentiments exactly. We cannot ever do or say anything that will be lauded as correct. We are, after all, a buncha left-wing commie pinko radicals plotting the overthrow of all that is right and good.

Rest assured, all of our hopes, dreams, fears and concerns will be either relegated to the "Tin Foil Hat Society" or summarily dismissed.

I'll say whatever the hell I please. Fox and the MSM can kiss my butt.

[Solly Mack]

90. We are " misfits" to Bush' vision of America.

Can you feel my pain? lolol

:toast:

[efhmc]

81. In a nutshell, NO!!!

I do not care one iota what those nutcase rightwingers say, care about or do. THEY, not people like the ones here with who are filled with passion and conviction to do the right thing, are the reason we are in the horrible state we are in and we will continue to go further down the path of immoral destruction until brave people take a stand!!!

[ShinerTX]

89. NO! I will not support Shrub's mindless thugs.

FOX doesn't like the truth? :nopity:

The minute we give the troops our support, they'll take advantage and start abusing prisoners. Our soldiers thrive off of this mythical patriotism that excuses their every action, not matter how IMMORAL and wrong it may be. We must NOT support what they're doing and let them know as loud as we can that they aren't supported, so they know that we're watching carefully every action they're taking. The rape of Iraq needs to end NOW. Would you support a rapist in your community because the local newspaper says you're being mean? Me either. Why give into Murdoch and his minions now?

True patriots don't care what the right-wing media thinks of us. They do what's right. Doing everything you can to stop the torture of the innocents is what is right.

Rise, Iraqi minutemen, rise! :dem:

[Redleg]

92. Nice stereotyping.

Did it ever occur to you that not all of the troops are thugs and assholes?

True patriots don't paint entire groups of people with such a broad brush.

And your comment about Iraqi minutemen is ignorant and inflammatory- but you apparently don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about your piss-poor use of your free speech.

[ShinerTX]

98. More "piss-poor" use of my free speech

Is a member of a group that gang rapes a girl not a thug and an asshole just becuase he doesn't actually participate? I believe in guilt by association--if you go along with a crime and assist it in some way, then you are just as guilty as the true criminals. In my mind, every soldier in Iraq now is aiding a crime. How else should I consider them?

As for my quite that is "ignorant and inflammatory", I took it from Michael Moore: "The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win."

I think he's right. If you think he's ignorant and inflammatory, then take it up with him. I support what he said here.

[Redleg]

104. You believe in guilt by association? How enlightened of you.

By the way, not all the Iraqis killing Americans are freedom fighters or Minutemen as you call them. Some are just plain old thugs who want to control Iraq for themselves.

[RBHam]

94. Bashing troops?

If you want to play into that right wing newsspeak, go ahead.

Yes, let's all cower and "dial it down" a bit...

War crimes are war crimes and silence is complicity.

[Redleg]

95. And bashing troops is bashing troops.

Most people here don't have a problem placing blame where the blame belongs. What I have a problem with is generalizing the despicable behaviors of a few shithead troops to the whole military.

[Swamp Rat]

97. Turn the dial down... to FOX

[Violet_Crumble]

99. Maybe we can get Fox and MSM to approve our posts beforehand?

Dog forbid that we post something they may misrepresent later. Or even post something that may upset some right-wingers...

Here's my little rah-rah session about US troops - I Support The US Troops!! I support them when they're doing good like they're doing in Aceh right now. I don't support them when they're sent to Iraq to engage in an illegal war. Then my wholehearted support goes to Iraqi civilians caught up in that crap. I am NOT going to gush away about supporting things that I think are wrong and immoral, and I refuse to support US or Australian troops and what they're doing in Iraq...


Violet...