"Democrats" who support the CA recall, a question for you

[Democat]

For those of you who are Green or Dems who say that you support the recall of Davis in California, I have a question for you.

If McClintock drops out, will you still support Yes on the recall?

If McClintock drops out in the last weeks, it could have two main effects:

1. Arnold picks up a lot of votes, maybe enough to beat Cruz.
2. A number of fanatic right wingers may not get out and vote, so the chance of the recall succeeding would go down.

If McClintock drops out, and it looks like Arnold will win if the recall succeeds, will you still go along with the right wing plan and vote yes on the recall?

This question is for Arianna/Camejo supporters as well as those Democrats duped by the media in California into hating Davis. I can't believe there is a single politically aware Democrat who would fall for this right wing trick and vote yes on the recall, but apparently there are a few here on DU. I am curious to know how important keeping the GOP from winning is to these Democratic recall supporters.

[jeter]

1. Cruz will win.

Period. No worries. Arnold won't win shit.

[liberalnurse]

3. My hopes are for Californian's to just vote NO on the recall.

Davis must stay in the office he was elected. Its about democracy and our future.

Vote No on the Recall......Its time to fight the good fight....

[redeye]

12. Why?

What's undemocratic about removing a governor with an approval rate lower than Nixon's at his zenith? I thought that democracy was about the rule of the majority, not of terms and poiltical manipulations.

[Deja Q]

20. Fair is turnabout play

Will you get on the "recall Bush" bandwagon the instant his poll numbers drop below 50%, with equal or greater fervor than you're using now?

Democracy is about voting them in legitimately and letting the voters decide come next election term, unless the elected official does something really, really bad - which is why Cruz is there as he's Lt Governor. He should be taking over from Davis; this puke-enabling recall gambit is what's happening instead and that's wrong.

If you're for the recall, you must surely be 50,000 times more pissed at Bush, how he came to power, and why more people aren't asking for a recall vote as well.

Seems only fair.

[redeye]

24. If there were federal recall provisions...

...I would.

BTW, democracy is not necessarily about letting the people vote only once every 4 years. Initiative, referendum, and recall are perfectly democratic - there're more direct than the model of the federal government but they're just as democratic, probably even more.

[NicRic]

17. KICK !!!

.

[wtmusic]

6. Couldn't have said it better

[Craig Roberts]

2. splain me Lucy

I'm not sure I understand how any Democrat could support the recall. I'm no fan of Davis, but our situation is not his fault, and a Republican governor would only make sure that the rich are better insulated from the hardships the rest of us must endure.

I think the people of California need to be more honest with themselves and recognize their own role in the sad state of the State. We keep using the proposition process to commit the government to more spending while limiting the amount the government can collect from taxes. How do we expect our representatives in Sacramento to make the system work?

Nobody likes taxes, but people need to stop whining and recognize we can't have all the things we need unless somebody pays for it. It's time to reexamine Proposition 13 and look at whether it is an equitable and reasonable restriction on the State's ability to generate revenues.

[wtmusic]

8. Davis is partly to blame

Why? Because he waited 6 crucial months to take action in the spring of 2000 when energy companies asked him to raise rates. Prices went through the roof and who ended up paying? You and I. The problem was not dealt with aggressively or creatively, and the result was a disaster.

I'm with you on Prop 13--it's run its course. Time to pay for this great state we live in.

BTW a big DEMOCRATIC welcome to Craig Roberts!

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[chaumont58]

9. You say he is partly to blame?

For actions taken in the spring of 2000? What happened in 2002?

[redeye]

13. What happened?

He remained true to his first name. And he also didn't even try raising taxes to pay off the deficit - now he's cutting UC and CSU's budgets in order to pay 220 million for death row :shrug:.

[robbedvoter]

21. You need to do a bit of reading:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0817-07.htm 
 
Published on Sunday, August 17, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

Ahnuld, Ken Lay, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Gray Davis

by Jason Leopold

Also, Davis REDUCED the deficit (38 to 8 billion). Anyone else did it in the bush economy?

[redeye]

25. Really?

Why do I remember reading everywhere that the deficit is still 38 billion? Why do I remember reading on Georgy Russell's campaign website that Davis is gutting UC and CSU in favor of death rows and the prison industry?

Oh yeah, it's probably because my memory is faulty and I am insane :eyes:.

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

31. You're not insane

You're just rhetorically-challenged. Does California law allow or require specifying line-items kept intact by specific spending cuts? In other words, does it require an elaborate balance sheet where line-item cuts must be specifically identified as being made to protect another specific line-item? If not, you're simply trying to line dance with a straw man.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Very thoughtful post. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[newyawker99]

18. Hi Craig Roberts!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AP]

4. A note about dropping out...

Your name remains on the ballot, so, if you want to drop out and give your votes to someone else, it's going to cost you like 5 million bucks in advertising to make sure everyone understands the situation. There's a good chance that half of your supporters won't realize that you're not running and they'll vote for you anyway.

[wtmusic]

5. You call it a 'right wing plan'?

A 'right wing trick'?

We're 'duped by the media'?

What about these guys? They must be duped too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=288636

[Ein]

7. Arnold doesn't have a chance.

NO DOUBT, that is the end. Beyond that, I support the recall, inthat if I was a California voter that had a chance to get rid of a shitty governor, I'd jump at the chance, even if Satan himself gave me the opportunity, b/c the ultimate choice is in the hands of the people.

[robbedvoter]

22. Did you follow all the court sentences and Ashcroft's too?

October 7 is as holly as Harris's "deadline". The fix is in.
All the voting rights violations pale in view of the importance of October 7. The press is mum. Arnold is in - and you will have helped.

[redeye]

26. Huh?

Last tiem I checked, the secretary of state here is a Democrat. How exactly is a Democrat going to steal an election in favor of a Republican?

[redeye]

11. Not important at all to me

I might vote against the recall, emphasis on might, if the replacement is safe Cruz (Davis at least doesn't support executing 14-year-olds), but if it's a tossup between Ahnold and Cruz I'll vote for.

Why, you ask?

Because I despise Davis. I've not been duped by the media (although saying this is a nice way to block one's argument from logical refutations, which unfortunately is a logical fallacy). I've been duped by a handful of facts, such as the one that CA has three strikes laws, *still* has the death penalty, has a governor who could've stood up to Enron but didn't, and has a state government that spends money on prisons and executions rather than on its public schools and univerisites.

I see few differences among Gray, Cruz, and Ah-nold, and all of those cancel one another out with the possible exception of Cruz supporting the death penalty even more fervently than Der Fuehrer. So I might as well vote my conscience for someone who thinks in terms of 2003, not 1963, works in a profession that creates things rather than sells or markets them, and not only takes my positions on all the issues but also emphasizes the issues I care about the most.

They say that Republicans can raise taxes, but Democrats can't; and as much as I hate Wilson's position on immigration, his fiscal policy wasn't that different from Clinton's and got similar results. Moreover, the Terminator, while stupid, is nowhere near as bad as, say, Bill Simon, or Peter Ueberrroth (sic).

I took the liberty of responding, btw, even though I'm a registered Independent. My political opinions are somewhere between those of the liberal Democrats (who're still too socially conservative for me) and those of the Green Party (which is too socialistic and too luddite), so I still responded.

[Democat]

14. The point that some of you are missing: Davis wins or Republicans win

Even if Cruz wins, for all the great things he might or might not do, if Davis is ousted, then the Republicans have won because their attack on Democracy was successful.

If Davis remains in office, then the Republicans will have less reason to try this type of thing again because they lost.

If Gore had somehow stopped Bush in Florida, that would have been a victory.

If the Texas Democrats can stop the re-re-districting, that's a victory.

If Clinton could have not been impeached that would have been a victory.

We need to start winning these battles.

The only clear victory in California is if Davis stays as governor.

Anything else, even Cruz taking over, is at least a partial victory for Republicans.

Democrats needs to get a grip on reality and start winning or we will keep losing.

It's still amazing to me to find out that anyone supports the recall here on DU.

[Mairead]

15. A free and fair election *is* democracy!

It doesn't matter how it came about -- except in a fiscal sense. Voting is democracy. If they decide to hold a new election every WEEK, that's still democracy. Fiscally prodigal, but democratic.

The only time it stops being democracy is when the vote is somehow rigged.

[robbedvoter]

23. Fair? 50% for Davis can be cancelled by 10% for...Arianna

how is this fair?

[redeye]

27. Because of how recalls should be constructed

The recall is directed against the elected official, not in favor of a contender, so it's only logical for the recall and the replacement to be two different votes.

[Mairead]

29. A fair election is one in which...

everyone who is eligible and wishes to vote has their ballot counted correctly. That's a fair election. There are many more Dems than GOP in California, so Dems can easily thwart the recall: simply turn out and vote 'no'.

[Booberdawg]

16. YAY!! EVERYBODY READ THAT AGAIN!!!

Democat has made the case very profoundly here. It's time to take a few steps back and tack a look at the bigger picture of what is really going on here.

That is what the Republican side is doing, and they have been winning

This is not just about a CA recall, this is about the Republican Party overturning an election. The 2002 election didn't go the way the Republicans wanted, so they are taking another swipe at it<[/b>, by hook or by crook!.

Democat is right, us Democrats and otherwise progressives have to STOP allowing the Republicans to win these battles, or even allow them to HAVE THEM.

What is going on in California is important - for the rest of the nation as well. For one - having a Republican Governor in office DOES affect the outcome of the 2004 presidential election. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF!! IT DOES!!

And, if the REPUBLICAN recall efforts succeed in CA, what's to say they can't do that in any other state in the United States for which they didn't succeed in the immediately preceding election? There isn't any reason that they can't, folks, THAT's WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!!

Take a step back and look at the big picture folks. The Republicans are playing a game here and we not only have to make sure they lose this one in California, we have to stop allowing them to play the game. Forgive me for saying this, but, *sigh* these people are gladly USING Greens to benefit the Republican objective.

The rest of the country is counting on you folks in California to stop this mess before this cancer metastasizes to the other states. This is plain and simply an attack on Democracy.

For the sake of Democracy there is no other choice but to vot NO ON THE RECALL. There is no rationional or informed argument otherwise.

On the replacement vote, there is NO other choice but to vote for a Democratic choice. Bustemante. Do you see this?? The Republicans have a bigger strategy - STOP letting them win!!

[Booberdawg]

19. oh shit that wasn't supposed to be all in bold

but I'll say that just to kick this anyway.

:kick:

[Booberdawg]

28. kick

:kick:

[yankeedem]

30. I'll kick this

Bill Clinton was elected twice with more votes than the Republican contender.

The Repubs tried to impeach him on vague, unproven charges.

Al Gore had a majority of the votes in the 2000 election and a majority of votes in Florida.

The Repubs had the black vote suppressed by scrubbed Checkpoint lists, and refused to allow a recount.

Gray Davis wins an election in the Fall of 2002. Nothing really changes for California, the supposed sins of Davis are the same, but 1.5million Pubs force the reelection of Davis over the will of 8 million Davis voters.

It's about subverting democracy folks. All three of the above cases are about overturning legitimately elected representatives. If that doesn't bother you I don't know what kind of citizen you can be.