Dean is the only one to stick up for Gray Davis. That makes him #1.

[Robin Hood]

The fact that Dean has been the only candidate that has come out swinging in defense of Davis, and in defense of all the other crooked crap that the thieves are pulling makes him stand out as the most presidential out of any one, he's up there with Al Gore.

When he spoke out in California against what the Repugs have been doing since selection 2000, he shot a cannon across his bow at the republicans. And you bet your ass that they are listening.

This is the only candidate that has truly grabbed the elephant by the trunk. The only one with fire in the belly. I like Dean, he just won me. I hope he keeps up this take no shit campaign, it's about damn time.

He has improved his message greatly in a very short period of time.

[REP]

1. Brilliant Move

It was a brilliant thing to do. It was the right thing to do - support a struggling elected Demecratic governor and politically astute as well - letting it be known he's not taking a single voter anywhere as granted, and doing it in front of a large audience. Every move in the recall 'election' gets a lot of coverage out in California, and it's a smart way to get his name in front of Californians who may have not heard much about him otherwise.

[polpilot]

18. Brilliant campaign. I always judge a politician by the intelligence of

his campaign and if he can run a brilliant campaign he probably can run a brilliant administration. I don't know who is putting their heads together on this deal but they continue to amaze me in their ability to be wherever 'first' and 'hardest' and get the biggest 'punch' from the situation.

Arguments can be made forever about 'all the demos support Davis' but who got the 'event' 'the tv' the press' and who put his neck out farthest. Prez Dean that's who.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The New Democratic Party.

[newsguyatl]

20. i like that

"Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The New Democratic Party."


amen my man!

[sugargoose]

59. Let's go further

The New Democratic Leader of AMERICA

[clar]

2. Thanks Gov

Although I'm not a Californian (actually I am by birth), the subversion of the democratic process by Issa and others, must be stopped. All of of our candidates should follow his lead.

[tsipple]

3. Didn't Wait for the Focus Group

Just when I think he can't top himself, he finds something else. This is one very smart campaign.

I think Davis survives, by the way, in which case Dean just earned a friend for life.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. A friend with 55 electoral votes.

[redeye]

35. On the contrary

Most Californians hate Davis. It's electorally better for Dean to take an anti-Davis position and win votes from anti-Davis independents who'll be impressed with his non-partisanship than to support him and alienate anti-Davis Democrats (and there're a lot, given that Davis' approval rate is 23%).

[Frances]

77. Sorry. It's just this idea that a Democrat should be a weenie

so that he won't offend some mythical voter that has enabled Republicans to rape the country.

I think Dean was brilliant to say that he will voice his honest opinion rather than be a wimp!

No on recall, yes on Bustamante

[redeye]

79. Mythical voter...

Davis' approval rate is 23% - and you bet that those 23% are mostly people who'll never vote anything but Democratic.

Dean should say what he believes in, even if I disagree. I'm just saying that supporting the gray Davis is bad electoral strategy, that's all.

[Capn Sunshine]

125. mythical poll

The question in that oft quoted poll was NOT "would you VOTE for Gray Davis?"

The question was "are you happy with the current state of affairs in California?"

BIG difference. I see you got sucked right into it along with a sizeable amount of Californians.

Just Vote NO, ok?

[CMT]

84. there are lots of partisan dems who don't support recall

they may not like Davis but don't want him recalled. Latest Field Poll shows recall opposed by 45%. In a crowded Democratic field Dean will reap benefits of being first Dem candidate to appear with Davis and publically oppose the recall.

[redeye]

86. the recall doesn't matter so much

What matters is Davis' approval rating, IMO - and it is 23%, lower than Nixon's lowest (27%).

[MoonRiver]

111. It's not just about Davis. Dean stated this is another rightwing coup

attempt. Californians are recognizing this fact, and Dean's willingness to point out the truth (once again) clearly differentiates him from his cowed and timid competitors. I respect him even more after the principled stance he took on Davis, and wholeheartedly support his nomination. :thumbsup:

[redeye]

112. Well, the 56% who suppotr the recall don't recognize the "fact"

and neither do I. I repsect his principled stand too, but I think he's following a wrong principle here.

Note: I support him for the nomination too, at least as long as he is the only supporter of separation of church and state in the primary race.

Note 2: I might vote against the recall, but not to oppose the GOP but rather to oppose Cruz "death penalty for 14-year-olds" Bustamante.

[Capn Sunshine]

128. You seem stuck on a number that is a LIE

When will you admit you are clueless about the real issues of this power grab?

[mitchtv]

119. most californians do not hate Davis

and yes it was smart to stick with the democrat here who will vote against recall in large numbers. But i see you have a reason , you want to get rid of our governor and allow the pukes in , cause you know that's what will happen if recall gets yes and people divide the dem vote like you suggest.A veritable PUKEFEST

[Jim Sagle]

126. What a buncha shit.

[w13rd0]

14. Right...

...and Dean has also mended fences with Terry at the DNC. He's also getting some positive comments from the rank and file membership of the DLC. He's doing a fine job with his campaign. And his defense of democracy (since it isn't really a defense of Davis so much as a pushing back at the RW agenda) will win him converts within the Democratic establishment. With this move, he also strikes back at Lieberman, who has a vested interest in Bustamante...

[Woodstock]

43. Did you read on the blog where McAuliffe called off the DLC

told them to stop attacking Dean.

Personally, I think the Recall No, Bustamonte Yes strategy is best.

[Hamlette]

37. doesn't take a rocket scientist

to see the Davis' poll numbers are within striking distance.

2 months ago would have been leadership. This is a safe move.

Nothing against Dean.

[IndianaGreen]

130. That's exactly it, tsipple! Dean doesn't use focus groups.

and he doesn't look at polls before deciding to act.

Like Liberal_Guerilla said, Dean is the only candidate to have grabbed the GOP elephant by the trunk.

You just wait and watch. See the other Democratic candidates slither to California to stand alongside Davis. Who would be next? I put my money on Kerry as being next. Although Lieberman may show up at a Bustamante rally.

[blm]

131. Kerry's been helping Davis for 3 months.

Dean uses polls and claims he doesn't. Sounds like Bush.

He also uses PUSHPOLLING...like Bush.

[liberalnurse]

4. Absolutely!

He is a man of his word. He has redefine the meaning of courage in politics. I like how you stated he has shot a cannon across his bow at the republicans. Let me add, a direct aim at *bush and company.

Many speak such rhetoric under their breath or in closed rooms but on national television, standing shoulder-to-shoulder next to the republicans latest target and point his finger at the criminals....

Oh, he's got intestinal fortiude! Make no mistake. We have been lurking here a DU for a long time, bitching and complaining about needing our Congressional reps and Senators to attack the right.....with only milk toast measures. Dean has shown the way for all of us to say, " We ain't going to take it anymore. We want our country back!"


Dean is a hero. He wants the job, he is applying for the job while the others appear to think they deserve the job. Dean has just surpassed the benchmark of what it will take to evict *bush.

Lets elect Dean.

[spooky3]

29. well said!!!!

[Lefty48197]

6. Kudos to Dean

Sticking his neck out like that is what leaders do. Give em hell Dean!

[poskonig]

7. This is called *leadership*

This is a much needed change from the backstabbing and waffling that characterizes the Democratic Party today.

[onecitizen]

8. As I said yesterday........

about this, again, Dean out there doing what all the candidates should have done. Just like he was the first to say something about EVERYTHING this administration has done. What's so sad is that the others just do not get it yet. They are all so scared of doing something or saying something against bush that would jeopardize their current jobs that yet again, they miss the boat. I like Dean because he speaks up and out against bush!

[LWolf]

9. They all oppose the recall.

http://us.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/15/democrats.recall.ap/

<lots of snipping>

"I think (the recall drive) insults the democracy of this country, and it's wrong, and Californians should not be making a choice about which candidate ought to replace Gray Davis," said Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts.

In Iowa, Rep. Dennis Kucunich, D-Ohio, said Democrats have to fight the recall while also "making sure they have a backup plan."

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said: "It sounds to me like an attempt by the Republicans to reverse the results of an election, which they have a habit of doing."

He said he didn't know enough about California politics to support an alternative to Davis.

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina said he opposes the recall because California has recently elected Davis, and he will not back an alternative.

Former Illinois Sen. Carol Moseley Braun said she hopes the recall will fail and plans to campaign on Davis' behalf.

Somewhere...I can't remember where, I heard that many of the candidates are planning to show up this fall and support the "No On Recall" campaign. Dean was one of the first to do so, but I believe Lieberman beat him to it. Of course, no on the recall was a side issue for Joe, who was here to campaign for Bustamonte.

"I'm against the recall, I think it's wrong. But I think people ought to have a choice beyond Arnold Schwarzenegger and Larry Flynt," said Lieberman, endorsing Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante.

.....

"Cruz Bustamante is a friend of mine, he's chairman of my campaign here in California," Lieberman said.

While seven of his rivals maintained a heavy schedule in Iowa, site of the nation's first presidential voting, Lieberman rushed to the West Coast to inject himself in the nation's biggest political story.

"It's a political power play against a governor who has governed in hard times," he said.

[poskonig]

10. But were they shoulder to shoulder with Davis on national TV?

That's what I wanna know.

[blm]

12. Of course, because you know the answer to that ?....

It doesn't matter what ANY of the others contribute to Davis because you only credit Dean with EVERYTHING.

[poskonig]

13. Kerry was shoulder-to-shoulder with Davis on national TV?

Link, please.

And I do give credit where credit is due. I was in the Kerry camp throughout 2002, greatly impressed as he stood up to Bush when he threatened to filibuster the ANWR bill on the Senate floor.

I'm sure you remember what gave me and many other people second thoughts about Kerry.

[blm]

16. Kerry gave Davis key political personnel

MONTHS ago. He has been going without them for the summer while they help Davis.

[poskonig]

17. that's good.

It would be twice as good if Kerry would make a public appearance *with* Davis. I know Kerry has to take a poll first, but this is a no-brainer since the alternative is GOP control over California, Bushit aid for the state, and problems for us in 2004.

[blm]

24. Two debates ago he came out strongly against the recall

and called the GOP on it linking it with the stolen 2000 election. In fact, some of Dean's words yesterday sounded like Kerry's.

I'd be careful about throwing out polling accusations, since YOUR guy Dean is doing the most despicable form of polling against the other Dems...PUSHPOLLING.

[poskonig]

25. *everyone" is against the recall. But will they stand shoulder toshoulder?

with Davis? I don't see Kerry out there in California stumping WITH Gray Davis, beating the crap out of Arnold, etc.

Yet he should. This is a no-brainer, not something we do halfway. Of course, Kerry supports everything halfway, whether it be the war, the tax cut, etc. etc.

[blm]

28. Dean's there in person, first.

So there is no credit to someone who has been sending Davis money and personnel for months now.

Kerry had a key schedule for the first two weeks of Sept.. Blame him for campaigning according to what he has laid out.

[JohnKleeb]

30. cant we just say good for all of them who think this recall is utter bull

:)
:shrug:
I am glad my guy commented on it.

[spooky3]

33. I agree, JK

[JohnKleeb]

36. thanks just trying to be fair

All who comment about it are doing some good. I bet they all would like to help Governor Davis but you know, its great that Dean is there but any form of help is good. That said good for Dean doing this and the others also doing this.

[blm]

45. Exactly, but Deanies take it too far with the "ONLY"

claims. SBNA use every opportunity to say Dean is the ONLY one who....and then proceed to misrepresent the other Dems.

[JohnKleeb]

51. yeah

They all arent in California but I wont say this is a bad thing Dean is doing, its a good thing but to act like hes the lone one speaking out is a problem with me. This is good that Dean is doing this. I am happy my candiate had something to say about in oppostion of the recall and I am happy that John Kerry has been doing what I am told he is doing. Props to those three and the others who speak out. Every bit of help is help whether its offering your support or actually out there speaking out its support. One of the reasons why I was attracted to Kucinich was his ablity to speak out on issues and on very unique ones, who can say they want to repeal the Taft-Hartley act. The reason I am behind who I am behind is because he offers hope and although hes not the best debator he is a good man with terrific intentions. That said my rant is done for now.

[Robin Hood]

113. Why aren't they all out in California?

Don't they realize how important California is to their election in 04'? If the dems lose California, might as well pack it up now and go home, because it's already over.

The fact that Dean knows this and acted on it, makes him the only one that's truly trying to save the Democratic party.

[JohnKleeb]

114. look I didnt deny he was good for doing it

christ. I am not saying hes bad I am just saying, the fact that others have done it too is good as well. If you want me to say now that Ive seen this thus I support Dean I cant do that. This is a good thing for Dean but it seems that others have been outraged over it too and have done what they could. Look I am gonna hold my ground here I wanna be fair.

[Robin Hood]

115. I'm not attacking you.

but, "have done what they could", in this case is not good enough. Obscure comments here or there is not enough. I'm telling you, if we lose California to Ahnold the prick, it's over. The 04' elections will be determined by the outcome of what happens in California.

This is more serious than most people realize, but I am glad that at least Dean realizes this.

Look, I have not been a Dean supporter. but what he did for California the other day, showed me that he understands the gravity of the situation, and has the courage to do something about it. And that is presidential material.

[JohnKleeb]

116. I agree with you

Well doing what he did in the house against IWR kind of makes me a Kucinich supporter. Congrads for you, you found a candiate. I agree that recall is serious and no doubt he has courage.

[AP]

52. Others have been there already.

Edwards was on a stage standing with Davis criticizing the recall (but I can't find a link, oddly).

And Sharpton was here all weekend one weekend getting great press and saying great things, with great eloquence (unlike Dean, who sounded stiff and as if he barely believed what he was saying).

Incidentally, local news here showed Dean making his statement, and then bled to a shot of Arnold -- it was like a morph shot. Dean's there one minute and then Schwarzenegger, occupying the same space in the frame, the shot taken from exactly the same angle. The implication, I think was intentional -- rather than contrast Arnold to Gray, contrast him to Howard.

[Eloriel]

48. Your "pushpolling" charge has been discredite again and again

and yet you keep trotting it out.

Why?

Desperation, I guess.

Go try and find something factual (for a change), why don't you?

Eloriel

[blm]

71. Hahah...NO...It HASN'T

and all your claims are meant to whitewash what Dean did in Iowa.

I'm sorry you can't grasp what PUSHPOLLING is Eloriel, but, I'll try to keep it simple for you.

It's reinforcing negative perceptions about your opponents while conducting a poll.

...........
"First phone attack

Straight-talking Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean is testing his attack message in Iowa. Political operatives say Dean's phone polling is probing for weaknesses in support for Sens. John Edwards and John Kerry and Rep. Dick Gephardt. For rookie pol Edwards, it's about experience. For Gephardt, it's his alliance with Bush on key issues. Questions about Kerry test Iowans' reaction to his vote backing the war in Iraq."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/archive/030512/12whisplead.php

[spooky3]

32. I also saw HD & GD s-to-s on CNN (or Headline) this AM

sorry--I don't have a link on the web; it was on TV.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

39. Wow, sour grapes.

Why not get in touch with the Kerry camp and tell them to LEAD in the fight, so Kerry gets the kudos Dean usually receives. It's not that the Deanies are a bunch of cheerleaders, it's that we have been attracted to Dean for this exact reason...he LEADS. Want to follow a leader? Either switch to Dean or stop whining and contact Kerry and tell him you want him to lead. Or does Kerry not listen to his supporters?

[Frances]

80. You guys sound like children arguing over a lollipop

My husband likes Kerry. That makes me ecstatic because he voted for Reagan.

I will support anybody but Bush.

Now let me enjoy what Dean said about the recall in peace!

[onecitizen]

15. See, I know they oppose it but..........

they haven't taken the time or energy to go there, have a press conference with Davis and decry this slimy effort to unseat a democratically elected Governor. I like the other candidates. I would take any of them over the current poser in WH. BUT, for me, I respect Dean more cause he isn't afraid to say what needs to be said.

[dansolo]

76. Everyone else but Dean

Stopped at merely opposing the recall. Dean is the only one who fingered the Bush Administration from being behind the effort, and drew parallels to Florida, Texas, and Colorado.

[blm]

11. You're wrong...Kerry did 2 debates ago, and gave Davis some of his key

campaign people months ago.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

19. That's great

but he needs to do something public like Dean did. Kerry commands a lot of respect, and his public support will help Davis -- it shows that Democrats on the national stage oppose the recall. All of the candidates should do this.

[newsguyatl]

23. blm

go away why don't you!

what a positive thread this was until you had to come in and infect it with your tripe!

:eyes:

[blm]

27. So, if someone is incorrect it should stand

uncorrected? OK

Dean is the ONLY.........

and the ONLY....

and the ONLY........

[poskonig]

21. Dean is kicking the crap out of Schwarzenegger today in SF

From a different thread:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/09/07/DEAN.TMP

Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean -- showered with enthusiasm by 1,100 service workers in San Francisco on Saturday -- charged that Republican candidate for governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been wrong to dismiss "hard-working Americans" as "special interests."

Dean received a standing ovation from the Service Employees International Union Local 250 convention Saturday at the Marriott Hotel and received an equally enthusiastic reception at an impromptu rally for 600 supporters in Yerba Buena Gardens. Amid a sea of support signs, one read: "Maybe we won't have to go to Canada after all."

<snip>

Surrounded by union supporters in San Francisco on Saturday, Dean was asked his reaction to Schwarzenegger's contention that he would accept no money from such unions because they constitute a ''special interest" group.

Dean looked at the women surrounding him at the podium, and recited their occupations: nurses' aides, food service workers, and physical therapists.

"Not exactly special interests," Dean said wryly. "I call them hard working Americans. And their tax money got taken away so it could go to (Enron head) Ken Lay and Arnold Schwarzenegger. . . . I wonder how big his tax cut was?"

[Robin Hood]

117. Oh man that is soooo sweet. Thank you for that.

This is exactly what I am talking about. This man is cutting through the bullshit and exposing these thieves for the crooks that they are. Ummmm that was tasty..

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. Also it's still on CNN.com front page

[redeye]

26. Five points away from Dean

Why does he bother protecting this incompetent governor? Partisanship? Because he thinks that demonstrating inability to balance a budget is a virtue? Because Ahnold is worse? Because Cruz is worse? Why?

[poskonig]

31. There are several reasons.

One, Davis is not mentally incapacitated or guilty of any crime. He was elected several months ago.

Secondly, the Republicans are making a habit of undermining democracy in America, and there needs to be zero tolerance for this crap. The law needs to be used responsibly, and what the Republicans are doing with it in California is unethical.

Third, if Arnold becomes Governor of California, we'll have to spend a lot of resources to win the state, which translates to a loss in 2004 and four more years of Bush.

[redeye]

34. Okay...

One, this doesn't matter. Davis is there because the people elected him in 2002; if the people want to recall him, they should have a way to do that. Given his dismal approval rates, I can't say there's anything wrong with a special election.

Two, it doesn't matter who started the recall; what matters is the recall itself.

Three, Ahnold won't deliver CA to Bush. The state is too solidly Democratic for that, and its Democrats will be too outraged because of the "stolen governorship" to let Bush take CA.

[poskonig]

38. Don't be naive.

One, the motivation for the recall indeed matters. Your argument is analogous to "terrorists committed the 911 massacre, not bin Laden, therefore we should just focus on terrorism" even though bin Laden is behind the entire thing.

Just as we don't support bin Laden on terrorism, we should not support Karl Rove on the recall. The law should not be used irresponsibly. Recalling someone people elected a few months ago because because the polling data isn't there is completely unethical.

That would be like saying impeaching Clinton is okay, because his poll numbers are low.

Secondly, if Arnold is in charge of California, the state is no longer a gimmie. Why? Bush will pass a huge California aid package in the Congress -- that is why Rove wants the recall, after all. We could probably win the state after spending a lot of resources there. However, Bush will have 300m in the bank and there are a lot of close battle ground states due to 911.

We aren't running against Bob Dole this time. Get with the program.

[redeye]

40. No...

9/11 was obviously a bad thing. The recall isn't.

Besides, it's completely ethical to let the people decide whether they want to recall someone. That's what a recall does: it lets the people decide.

Moreover, California is just too Democratic. Bush can waste his time till the universe ends, but he won't win it. And further, I don't see anything wrong with a California aid package as long as it goes to the right places (i.e. UC and not prisons).

[poskonig]

41. You're wrong.

Politicians have the legal ability to impeach a president, but that doesn't mean they should do it whenever they feel like it.

Bush is polling around 40% in California and an aid package for Arnold will make winning there extremely difficult for us and more importantly will hurt us in other states.

Of course, why one would tacitly endorse Enron Arnold by supporting the Republican recall grossly distends the rules of consistency and logic.

Join the good guys. You'll thank yourself for it.

[redeye]

42. No, I'm not

For the third fucking time, it's not a regular removal, it's a goddman recall election, i.e. 50% of the people or more are required to actually 86 Davis.

Also, I don't remember Wilson delivering CA to Bush in 1992 (and then CA wasn't that Democratic), or Massachusetts' Republican governors delivering the state to the GOP. Why will this be any different?

And no, I don't support Arnold, but I don't think that Cruz "death penalty for 14-year-olds" Bustamante is any better. Look at my sig line; the words "vote Arnold Schwarzenegger" don't appear there.

Finally, you guys should stop with the good/evil rhetoric. You guys are sounding like Bush with his "you're either with us or against us" and "Bin Laden is evil."

[poskonig]

50. Well, you are supporting Bush.

Whether you want to admit it or not. It was *Bush* who turned the greatest surplus in American history into the greatest deficit in American history, and that is why states are hurting. Not because Davis looks like a dweeb, or isn't a perfect human being.

A person's polling data does not justify an impeachment. Right? The same principle applies to the recall. If we don't like Davis, find a replacement in 2006. Until then, give him a chance to do his job. Everybody has their low points in the polls. If Davis is not committing any crimes, what people are doing out there in California is very arbitary, Ken Starrish, and downright foolish.

Again, who is behind the recall does matter, just like who is behind terrorism matters. You have yet to successfully deal with this reality.

You are still being naive about the 2004 election. We don't have Ross Perot helping us out, and we aren't running against Bob Dole. We are trying to unseat an incumbent with a massive warchest, at minimum a quarter of a BILLION dollars.

[redeye]

58. Wrong

A person's polling data, as determined in a special election, should determine his fate in politics. That's the idea of politicians working for people, not vice versa.

[poskonig]

62. So Clinton should have been impeached in 1994?

I'm betting that you, deep down, disagree with this.

Even though the banana Republicans don't like the fact, we have *terms* for our elected officials in the country. If a politician has a bad couple of months, he therefore has time to set things straight.

Davis deserves the same respect. It isn't his fault he was born dweeby looking and is not a muscular movie star.

[redeye]

63. You're confusing two things

Impeachment is one thing; recall is a completely different one. If there had been federal ercall provisions in 1994, I think that it would make sense for the GOP to try and recall him, yes.

And stop talking to me abotu what *is*, because in California the situation *is* that elected officials can be recalled.

[poskonig]

67. Same principle.

Your thesis is that any legal procedure is ethical as long as the polling data supports it.

This is false.

[redeye]

69. It's not polling data - it's a friggin election (n/t)

[Rose Siding]

53. You have this chance for "regular removal"

Because the REPULICANS bought it for you.

If The People should be able to vote every year on their displeasure with an elected official, why not every month? Every DAY. Who will pay for this? Who will supervise the elections? Will they be elected? Will we be able to recall them also? WHO PAYS?

Are you familiar with CA laws? Davis was hog tied by repubs in the legislature. While repub govs across the country were raising taxes to weather the Bush assault, Davis couldn't, by LAW. But he did battle big energy and the feds. He did ensure rights for farm workers. He did support revolutionary environmental regulations that Bush HAS to stop.

This smoke screen is being bought by a FEW who are like short sighted kids in a candy store.

[redeye]

57. So? I think in terms of concepts, not people

Besides, the recall is meant to do exactly that: let the people 86 people whenever they want to, not only in fixed time intervals. Sounds much more efficient and more democratic to me than fixed terms, actually.

[poskonig]

64. I'm not certain you are thinking at all!

:+

[redeye]

70. It's mutual

Actually I'm not certain any of the yellow-dogs here is thinking in any terms but "Democratic good, Republican bad!"

[poskonig]

73. Arnold *is* pretty bad.

If the energy crisis is what's bothering us, we have to wonder what Arnold was doing meeting with Ken Lay in the middle of your energy crisis.

If I were a Californian, I would not replace Davis for him just because Bush bankrupted the country.

[redeye]

78. Bush bankrupted...

...and Davis didn't resist.

On another note, Arnold at least doesn't support executing 14-year-olds, whereas Cruz does.

[poskonig]

Again, what makes Arnold so much better than Davis?

I simply don't see it. I know Davis isn't perfect, but putting the Enron folks in charge like Arnie seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

[redeye]

85. He isn't

He is just as bad as Davis and Cruz.

[poskonig]

89. Will Davis deliver California for Rove in 2004?

I don't think so. Now what is Davis doing that is SO bad that makes Arnold a worthy replacement?

[redeye]

90. He can't

The secretary of state is the guy in charge of elections, and he's still a Democrat last time I checked.

[poskonig]

93. So there will be no Bush-Schwarzenegger photo-ops?

Pass the bong, please.

[redeye]

97. There will be

So what? If Giuliani couldn't deliver NY to Bush in 2000, to whoever ran against Hillary in 2000, and to the Republican Congressional contenders in 2002, then Ah-nold won't deliver CA to Bush in 2004.

[poskonig]

102. *Post 911* Guiliani could.

The polls are a lot closer now than they were before 911. Why give Bush *any* advantages in California?

[redeye]

105. He didn't in 2002 (n/t)

[Woodstock]

47. If a Republican hadn't ponied up all the dough there wouldn't BE one

It was his money that made this possible - and he is the one who wanted to replace Davis. The recall effort would never have gotten enough signatures if left up to ordinary citizens to bring it about. Whatever the polls say, that's not enough to get a recall election to happen. The actual recall election was made possible by the money of a rich Republican who finance the signature gathering process - there seems to be little dispute about this.

So it's fine with you for rich people to subvert the democratic process and cost the state millions (last I head it was in the 30 million range) for a special election, and all before the more reliable non-punch card voting machines in the poorer districts could be put in place (a little added insurance for the Republicans so the votes in Republican districts will count more than in the Democratic districts)?

[Eloriel]

56. Redeye -- your "just too Democratic state" can go down in a

flames with enough vote suppression and vote fraud. And all the states are rushing to computerized voting machines, which makes vote fraud on a massive scale quite easy, and all but undetectable given our current state of affairs.

All that's needed is: that huge aid package or other federal largesse; lots of photo op visits by Bush; news stories and possibly fake polls talking about Bush's rising popularity in CA; and implementation of every vote fraud and vote suppression trick in the book, just like FL where probably hundreds of thousands of Gore votes were lost as a result.

No matter how much you may hate Davis, you do NOT want this recall to succeed. Trust me on this one.

Eloriel

[Woodstock]

65. don't forget the punch card machines

they had to abandon plans to replace them because the Republicans would not wait and hold the recall election in March

[redeye]

66. the secretary of state is still Democratic

And vote fraud can change the outcome of an election when the margin is 1%, not 12+% (12+ because California is becoming more Democratic by the day and because the Greens will have a weaker presence in 2004).

[Woodstock]

44. So are you willing to pay for the special election?

Since you see nothing wrong with it.

[redeye]

55. Were you willing to pay for the Florida recount in 2000? (n/t)

[Woodstock]

61. Apples and oranges - and you didn't answer the question

That comparison of the recall and the recount makes no sense.

And please address the cost of the special election. And the fact that it is being done before they have a chance to get the punch card machines replaced. They were on a pace to have these replaced by March when there will be a scheduled election, but had to stop efforts and go back to the old machines. And waiting until March would also have saved money, but the Republicans would not wait.

Defend that.

[redeye]

68. Democracy costs money

Sorry to tell you, but democracy costs money. It's the same principle that should be applied everywhere: recounts, recalls, shorter terms when appropriate (you don't support 20-year-terms to save money, do you?).

And a completely unrelated adn to some degree irrelevant note, it's possible that the 52 million dollars spent will pale in comparison to the money saved from 86ing Davis 5 months earlier.

[Woodstock]

74. You still didn't answer

What about the punch card machines? Why can't they wait until March so these could be replaced? And so the election would not cost the extra money? We are talking a few months here to wait to replace someone who was elected just a few months agao. The Republicans can't wait because they think they will get more votes by rushing it through. Is it OK to say they cheated in Florida, or do you doubt that, too? Is it right that one rich Republican guy made this happen? As I said before, if not for his money, they never would have gathered enough signatures.

This is what you call "democracy"? Ha!



No, none of this bothers you. And you won't addresss any of it.

I'll make it easy for you:

The Republicans can't wait for the punch card machines to be replaced in March, and this is good for democracy because ______.

The Republicans can't wait until the March election to save over $30 billion, and this is good for democracy because ______.

A rich Republican guy who wanted the office for himself made the recall election all possible (they never would have gotten enough signatures without his financing) and this is good for democracy because ______.

A recount in a presidential election where one side cheated is the same as a recount of a governor who was undisputedly elected a few months ago with all of the above factors taken into consideration because ______.

[Woodstock]

88. Waiting for answers, Redeye

.

[poskonig]

75. The Bush depression will cost california money too.

Bush is the entire reason why California is in its fiscal mess. 500,000 IT jobs were outsourced to India this year, and I'm certain a lot of them were from California.

Why do you want a Governor Schwarzenegger? What makes Arnold so much better than Davis?

[redeye]

82. Ahnold can raise taxes, Davis can't

It's far easier for Republicans to rasie taxes than for Democrats to do so - think Pete Wilson.

And besides, I don't prefer the Terminator to Davis; I think that the differences among Gray, T-101, and Cruz cancel one another out, so there's no point to voting for any of them, except maybe to overcome worse candidates (all of whom are either polling in the low single digits or dropping out).

[Woodstock]

94. And the "fake" energy crisis

The Republicans had a hand in that, too.

[AP]

54. Gore would have won FL by 300,000 votes if Jeb hadn't been governor

[redeye]

72. Where did you get that from?

I was under the impression that if you add everything the tricks of the state legislature and Katherine Harris (Jeb actually had little to do with it), you'll only get about 100,000. And even that is not enough to make California go GOP, not to mention that it won't happen because the Democrats still control the secretary of state position and both houses of the state legislature.

[Woodstock]

81. Jeb had lots to do with it. Just look at the damage Ehrlich is doing.

Astounding that you have these views of Florida.

And if you have any doubt how a Republican governor can screw up a Democratic state, look no further than Maryland.

Ehrich ran as a moderate, too, despite the fact that he had the worst environmental record, was anti-choice, and close buddies with George W. Bush, the most extreme right person we've ever had in the office of president.

Now Maryland is in danger of having many of our environmental, health, and worker reforms overturned or blocked.

Get real.

[redeye]

83. Are we talking abotu the environment or the election?

Don't change the subject. I read several accounts of the Florida fiasco, and all indict Katherine Harris except the disenfranchisement of blacks, which is mostly the fault of Cruella but also partly of the state legislature that disenfrachised ex-felons.

[Woodstock]

87. The subject is the influence of R governors in D states

That is the subject you brought up and the subject both of us responded to:

You said "And even that is not enough to make California go GOP, not to mention that it won't happen because the Democrats still control the secretary of state position and both houses of the state legislature."

This seems to be justification of your support for the recall.

We said R governors can have a lot of influence in D states to counter what you said.

Don't YOU change the subject.

[redeye]

96. Only in certain things

Governors don't have that much influence oevr elections - I don't recall Massachusetts going GOP lately because of its Republican governors, for instance.

[Robin Hood]

133. Would katherine harriss have been there if jeb was not there?

i don't think so.

[VOX]

122. Repukes created the recall. If you vote YES, you're voting Repuke...

It's that simple. The right wing conceived, planned and executed this costly recall election. It's what they want. It's really got nothing to do with Gray Davis.

Look, Gray Davis isn't my kind of Democrat either. I could start with the fact that he's not liberal enough by a long shot, but I won't go there. This battle is much bigger than Gray Davis, no matter what you may think of him.

The right wing is attempting to exploit Davis's overall unpopularity in this blatant power grab. Don't fall for it. Remember who's chairing Arnie's campaign -- right-winger Pete Wilson, another supremely lousy and assholic CA governor.

California has been a pain in the ass for the right wing -- they haven't had a winning candidate for governor, senate or president in CA since 1994.

You want to stick it to the right wing and the GOP? Then vote NO on the recall.

[Capn Sunshine]

127. You have a LOT to learn my friend

Stop listening to right wing radio and FOX news shows. Davis is NOT incompetent. He's done more to protect this state from the rapacious invasion of corporate body snatchers than any single politician.

Wake UP before you have a post election hangover of "dude, where's my overtime?" among other "business friendly " ideas put forth by the enemy.

[AP]

46. Dean isn't the only one sticking up for Davis (and he isn't first).

Sharpton was in Oakland for two days a week or two ago solely focusing on the recall.

Edwards was here and appeared on stage with Davis sometime in the last month or so. I've searched everywhere, and I can't find any reporting on it.

However, I did find this link to an AP report on the Drake University forum with the canidates (which, curiously, refers to Edwards as "North Korea" Senator).

http://newslink.nandomedia.com/NandoTimes/politics/election/president/v-york/story/969168p-6796198c.html

[samurai_jack]

49. you're not being fair '[in response to orig. thread post]

Bob Graham publicly (on TV, in California) opposed the recall back in late July.

[Rose Siding]

60. Several candidates have opposed it previously

including Dean. But he's the first to stand for it publicly, with Davis, in CA, insuring a spotlight for Dem solidarity on the issue.

It isn't unfair to point it out.

[jab105]

91. it was the right thing to do!

Dean did the right thing...good for him!

[Frances]

92. I'm sort of naive when it comes to posting

but is Redeye one of those disruptors?

Like this thread was a really positive thread until Redeye came on and made arguments that sounded like those a freeper would make.

[poskonig]

95. I'm starting to think so.

No liberal in their right mind would endorse Schwarzenegger. Even if they are both "just as bad" (which is patently false) why help Bush in 2004?

[redeye]

100. I don't endorse Ah-nold

I endorse Georgy Russell, who happens to be a Democrat (I'd really rather vote for a Green or Independent, but that really doesn't matter), and who happens to be very liberal on the issues.

[poskonig]

104. Translation: 'I support Arnold'.

Yes on the recall and No on Bustamante has the consequence of putting Arnold in office. Why do you prefer him?

[redeye]

107. I don't

I think he's as bad as Bustamante. Translation: I'm not voting for either. Independently of that, I think that Davis sucks, so I'm voting for the recall (note: I'll vote agaisnt it if I discover more skeletons in Cruz's closet).

Have you stopped beating your wife, by the way?

[Capn Sunshine]

120. Then vote NO on the recall, and leave it at that

or else you are helping the enemy. And spending money we don't have needlessly.

[redeye]

98. No, I'm not

A while ago I started a flamebait thread (I don't remember if it got locked or not), "Do you guys think I'm a freeper/disruptor/wingnut?" and got an overwhelmingly positive, i.e. I am a disruptor, response.

If you want one reason why I'm not, look here:

http://leftist.i8.com/manifesto.html

Freepers don't write 18,000-word essays in favor of liberalism.

[JohnKleeb]

101. I remember that

Your liberal manifesto?
I dont agree with you on trade and all that stuff but you arent a disruptor. I disagree with you on this recall but youre entitled to your belief. I just hope we dont get someone like McClintock governing California although Arnold wouldnt be good. Real sorry to see this happening.

[redeye]

103. My liberal manifesto - what about it?

Anyway, I promised to myself that if the replacement was safe for a conservative Republican such as McClnitock, I'd hold my nose and vote for Gray. However, the replacement is likely Cruz, failing that safe Ahnold. Ahnold is exactly as bad as Davis; Cruz is slightly worse, and I admit that I might vote no on the recall if I see that Cruz becomes even worse than he really is.

For example, btw, Cruz supports death penalty for offenders as young as 14.

[JohnKleeb]

106. thats what it was called right

death penalty for 14 year olds jeez, I am glad I am not in CA. Thats wrong. Sorry to see you being bashed.

[redeye]

108. Fortunately...

...he won't be able to murder people against the law. However, whenever the law allows him to murder someone, he will - just like with Bush's record in Texas.

[JohnKleeb]

109. the death penalty is wrong imo

I can see why you support Camejo, I dont know much about him but this worries me deeply, death penalty for 14 year olds :(.

[redeye]

110. Camejo is AFAIK anti-death penalty...

...though I'm not so sure. Georgy Russell definitely is, but unfortunately not only does she have 0.00000% chance of winning, but also she might not even get past the "thong-seller" image.

Death penalty makes me worry, too... this is teh one issue that might make me vote against the recall, actually.

[Jim Sagle]

129. Well, it's against DU rules to call you a freeper.

So they should stop staying that.

[JohnKleeb]

99. red is no disruptor

I disagree with him on the recall and all but I like him and we disagree on trade but hes all right.

[mitchtv]

121. maybe not ,john

but this yes on recall shit has to go.

[JohnKleeb]

124. I disagree with him on that totally mitch dont get me wrong

Me and red are on total opposite poles on trade too. I of course *points to avatar*. I agree with you completely that he is wrong but I just think disruptor is not a good term.

[sugargoose]

118. A Picture

Let's see if this works. I have not put up a pic before

[VOX]

123. Nice work, sugargoose!

:toast:

[Robin Hood]

132. OMG!!! That is so excellent. Good work.

Thank you for that.