I may finally get fundies. They are weak and need the government's help.

[alcuno]

Listening to NPR the other morning on the way to work, I finally heard a coherent explanation for the evangelicals and their need for government control of books, the internet, television, etc. Like many, I've often wondered why people don't just turn off and tune out the stuff that offends their moral sensibilities.

As the preacher put it, they recognize temptation and want the government to help them avoid it by putting limits on what they can read and view. So simple, but I never really understood where they were coming from with their Taliban-like approach to government.

Am I the only one who didn't know this? They approach it from a position of moral superiority when it is really about moral weakness.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Not to mention their weaknesses that result in a need for religion.....

[Wapsie B]

2. That's an interesting take on fundies.

"Stop me before I look at that dirty picture." Makes perfect sense to me. Don't agree with their view at all however. It IS about weakness.

[alcuno]

5. Exactly. I had no idea that was the rationale.

That was essentially what the preacher being interviewed was saying; they want government involved in taking temptation out of their paths. And I don't agree with it either.

[Bouncy Ball]

3. Um, also

aren't they AGAINST the government as nanny?

Tell the fundies to put their big girl panties on, pray to God for strength and turn the channel or get away from the porno sites.

LOL!

[alcuno]

7. Apparently not.

Not that sect of the Republican Party.

[ThoughtCriminal]

4. Elmer Gantry Leadership

It is not a coincidence that so many fundie leaders have "Moral" problems: Gambling, adultery, divorce, secret abortions, trophy wives, alcohol, drug abuse, sexual harassment, child molestation, pornography, closet sexual habits... It's not just noticeable because of the hypocrisy, these people have real problems with temptation.

No wonder they think America is a moral sewer - they assume we're all just like them.

[checks-n-balances]

8. Funny how you and I posted about the same time and said essentially

the same thing.

Except yours was more interesting & to the point, whereas mine was characteristically in the rambling style!

[checks-n-balances]

6. Although it's not true for all of them, I do think you're onto something

I believe there are two basic types of fundamentalists:

The CONTROLLED (as you mentioned) and the CONTROLLERS (their leaders). My take on the Controllers is that many of them are frustrated control freaks who don't succeed "out there", so they're into religious/moralistic control.

I think both groups are scared to death of an angry God whom they really believe is out to get out sexually "immoral" society, so they're trying to placate him. But I also think they're scared to death, as you mention, of their shadow selves, so they pretend it doesn't exist while projecting onto others their deep desires to "sin" just like the rest of us.

I may be off base on some of this, but I think all of these things are definite factors.

I'm no psychologist, but they certainly do warrant being studied by those who can help explain some of this.

[Pushed To The Left]

23. Daddy state and cheap labor conservatives

Controlled=Daddy State conservatives

Controllers=Cheap Labor conservatives

[Lexingtonian]

9. Yep.

Most evil is perpetrated out of weakness. Oppression is their way of controlling their disease.

As Robert M. Price says, fundies hold on to their belief system out of willpower and failure of imagination. That means that they need domination to be able to compete at all.

[Pushed To The Left]

10. Excellent point!!

We need to get this message out to the small government, libertarian-leaning conservatives. Somebody wanting the government to protect them from their own weaknesses sounds like the polar opposite of what conservatives claim to be all about!

[alcuno]

15. When I heard it, it was as if a lightbulb went off in my head.

The polar opposite is it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. I already knew it, but my FIL is a fundagelical preacher :^)

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[Pushed To The Left]

Could this also be the reason

for the drug war? How about laws against prostitution and gambling? I think this could explain more than just the censorship issue! Social conservatives want to be protected from themselves and their own weaknesses!

[tanyev]

12. Here's the part I don't get.

They want/need government control to deliver society from temptation because obviously (to their way of thinking) individuals are not capable of regulating their own behavior. However, they want all government regulation and control removed from corporations because...why? (Other than personal greed, of course) Corporations are inherently good and moral and will be capable of policing themselves? They are not honest about the insconsistency underlying their agenda.

[ThoughtCriminal]

16. Corporations buy protection from critisism from fundie leaders

by contributing heavily to the political leaders that support the fundie agenda. Saudi Arabia is the model.

[Lexingtonian]

17. consistency has nothing to do with it

There's no real solution to that problem, but reality isn't given any real consideration. After all, willpower is their dogmatic solution- imposing something that suppresses the dilemma in some form- makes it invisible- is solution enough.

[alcuno]

18. I think they were only talking about the evangelicals.

That's their need for government control on the "moral" issues. I would guess that they are not the ones interested in deregulating corporations.

[tanyev]

21. You are probably right.

They are certainly willing to turn a blind eye, though. I guess it's a reflection of the dark alliance between fundies and big business to maintain the dominance of the Republican party.

[Pushed To The Left]

22. The Daddy state

George Lakoff talks about this in "Don't Think of An Elephant". Basically, the conservatives want the government to be a strict father who gives them strict rules and discipline. They think that if somebody doesn't make it in the free market, it's all their fault, so they don't deserve any help. www.chelseagreen.com has a link to a pdf sample of "Elephant".

At www.conceptualguerilla.com the author talks about how both social and economic conservatism are linked by the right-wing's goal of cheap labor: getting workers to work for the lowest wages possible and keeping them "over a barrell". The social "wedge" issues are there to distract people from economic issues in some cases.

Of course, we might still be able to turn some of the cheap labor fiscal conservatives against the religious right Daddy state conservatives for wanting the government to protect them from their own weaknesses. :evilgrin:

[alcuno]

25. Thanks for the links.

The strict father idea says it all.

[salin]

13. Exactly what the witch hunts were about

... I am pure (fear, fear...) but I had this experience last night (wet dream) about {insert woman in the community}... she must be a witch who is planting this evil in my mind... we must annhilate the danger (that is, if she isn't here I won't be tempted to have that reaction...) KILL THE WITCH...!!!

Seriously - what you suggest fits with the actions (and atrocitieis) of their Puritanical predecessors.

[dave123williams]

14. The Westwing said it best last night; they're obsessed with sex.

[depakid]

19. Fundies are weak

and the weakness stems from an insecurity in their own beliefs. That's why fundamentalists anywhere express the need to have government, a doicese or just plain thugs to enforce their narrow views and ensure that there's no dissent.

It's because they are weak.

All things equal, truth will rise from the clash of arguments- that notion goes way back to the Golden Age of Athens.

Only weak ideas- ideas incapable of withstanding thoughtful analysis need fear the clash.

Of course, while it's also true that some advocates are better than others and at times "youth may be corrupted" and "the worse case may be made to appear better," we might all do well to remember that these were the reasons Socrates was condemned and drank the hemlock. Or perhaps even why Jesus was crucified (in the pharisee's minds).

Far better, I think, to inoculate enough of the population against that- through education- or- taking the devils advocacy- through teachings in fundamentalist church's.

To do anything other than that- to actively suppress ideas in the general public discourse is to admit that one's own ideas and arguments are in fact inferior- and would lose in a fair fight.

[alcuno]

26. I like the connection to dissent.

It makes sense.

[Gloria]

20. They are fearful, too. They need to be control freaks to

ward off all the bad stuff they hold inside. I know. I live with one of them.

[Wapsie B]

24. Oh wow.

That must be rough.

[pop goes the weasel]

27. It's their god who is weak

They obviously have a god who needs Uncle Sam's help. It must be a different god than the one the Danbury Baptists had back in 1802. They seemed to be under the impression that their god could manage without government assistance.