Request for Comments on Rev. Franklin Graham

[saltpoint]

I'm asking into DUers' thoughts and advice on Rev. Franklin Graham, son of Rev. Billy Graham, the conservative Protestant minister.

I had misgivings about his racist remarks about Islam since 9-11, but would welcome any and all thoughts and contributions, yay or nay, that DUers could offer on him, his ministry, or anything else you think is pertinent.

Thanks.

[Jacobin]

1. Well, for one thing he is not "conservative"

He is an extreme right wing idealogue who espouses the merger of church and state, conquest and vanquishment of other countries in order to convert "heathens" to christianity, and is in favor of government control of women's wombs, and the rest of the RW radical movement, so unhelpfully mis-described as "conservative" by the media.

A true Whack Job of the First Order.

[raysr]

2. Isn't it time for

his Boss to call him home?

[saltpoint]

23. I appreciate the intelligence in your post, raysr --

-- but could I ask if you will give me the umpf behind it?

Tell me your thoughts on this guy.

[saltpoint]

36. Jacobin -- do you happen to know where --

-- Franklin Graham has his headquarters?

Also:

Who taught you how to write? Your command of language is strictly top-drawer.

Thanks for your post.

[Greylyn58]

39. Billy Graham

relocated his headquarters, which Frankilin now runs after Billy retired, to Charlotte, NC, his hometown.

I live in Charlotte and Rev Graham moved to some land right off the aptly names Billy Graham Parkway.

[saltpoint]

41. Mmm.

Didn't know this.

Thanks.

[bobbieinok]

3. from the little I've read, he's much more in your face than his father

ever was

he may have resisted coming into the ministry.....lots of sons have done so (see Richard Roberts)

Billy spoke at the memorial for the victims of the OKC bombing....he was comforting and helpful.....I don't think anyone in OK found this inappropriate

from what I recall, Franklin spoke at the memorial for the Columbine students and preached a very 'come to Jesus', hellfire and brimstone message.....many in CO found this very upsetting and inappropriate

a difference in personality and message...plus a difference in audience....OK much more conservative christian self-identified than CO

[saltpoint]

4. Hmm.

Ok. Helpful. Thanks.

[bobbieinok]

12. further info from what I remember

Billy was THE evangelist in the 50s and 60s.....he'd have crusades in various cities, but only after a group of churches asked him....and they had to agree to follow up on every one who accepted Jesus....

later in the 60s - 80s the crusades were televised...

later the ministry made some movies.....

Billy would always start every statement with 'the Bible says'

he became more powerful and a friend/confidant of politicians....he pulled way back on the 'friend of politicians' thing when he became convinced he had been grossly misled by Nixon

at the time of the Jimmy Swaggert and the Jim and Tammy Baker scandals, there was an article somewhere by a professor at Rice (a sociologist who specialized in America's religious culture) .... he said that the ministry had always been meticulously careful that there be no possibility of a financial or sexual scandal

even though I never watched or followed much of Billy's crusades, I like many of my generation can still hear his main singer George Beverly Shea singing the 'theme' hymn of his ministry 'How Great Thou Art'

[bobbieinok]

18. a site for the song

http://rosemck1.tripod.com/hgta.html

[saltpoint]

21. Ok. I clicked and looked. Now tell me --

--what it was I saw.

[bobbieinok]

32. can click on different versions of the song......click on GBShea abt a

third down.....I didn't have the patience to wait to see if this was actually Shea singing the song

[saltpoint]

34. Is this site connected somehow to Franklin Graham?

I'm missing the connection. Help me out. -- I mean besides Shea per se... ?

------
edit: Shea question added.

[bobbieinok]

40. no......just a site about the song How Great Thou Art

[saltpoint]

44. Ah, ok.

I knew of the Shea connection but failed to mention it earlier -- thanks for the heads-up.

[frankly_fedup2]

5. I remember him saying that Islam was an evil religion... of course,

this was when no Muslims came out against the terrorists, and by the way, still have not.

I do not know his preachings. I know Billy Graham never got into anything political.

After reading a lot of history about Islam (after 9/11), and the Muslim religion because I wanted to understand or grasp how they could do what they had done.

Their Koran is the only religious book I have ever read that condoned murder. You are to give your enemies a chance to convert and accept Allah as the one and only true God. If they do not, Allah says to kill them. It teaches hate (especially of Jews and Christians).

The reason believed is because in Mecca, when Gabrielle was coming down and telling the prophet Mohammad (PBWH-this is "peace be with him" or "upon him". They have to say that every time after they say the prophet's name . . no joke) what to put in the Koran was during the time of the Christian Crusades when the Christians and the Jews were slaughtering the Muslims. Of course, there is a conflict about who is interpreting the Koran, and really the only ones allowed to interpret and/or translate it are suppose to be an expert. Muhammad (PBUH), knew the Koran word for word and that is why they study it so hard, to memorize it so they can state it word for word.

They are required to visit Mecca or Medina once in their lifetime if they can afford it. They are to pray 5 times a day (toward Mecca) as it is required. They leave their jobs to go to the nearest Mosque to do this. That is why there is a Mosque just about on every corner. But they are not considered obsessive but they pray publicly five times a day.

Now you take it from there. I kind of agree with Franklin. Of course, This post will probably get deleted even though all I did was state what the book said and the reasons why some things are done. It's really interesting to learn about other cultures and their people. I have learned all I want regarding this religion and really most religion in general.

I have seen Jerry Falwell on his Old Time Gospel Hour get behind his pulpit and spew such hate it's unbelievable. All of it is toward Dems too. He stated if he passed a Democrat on the street who was dying of thirst, he would not give them one teaspoon of water if they begged him. Now there is a good Christian for you.

Hope this doesn't get deleted; however, I have a feeling it will. You cannot say anything hardly anymore.

[saltpoint]

6. I don't have any power to delete your post.

Honestly, I would not delete it if I did have that power, but on the other hand, I don't think Islam is a wicked religion.

At a period of U.S. history when our relations with other countries is already under such serious strain, I wonder if it is wise for our clergy to be spouting negative assessments of other cultures' traditions.

Just a thought.

[frankly_fedup2]

24. Have you listened to Jerry Falwell lately? That man stands behind . . .

a pulpit CLAIMING to be a Christian, and then calls Liberals everything but dirt. He never even addressed any charity for the tsunami victims. Nor did Pat Robertson.

Falwell every week calls the Democratic Party/Liberals baby killers, we don't support our troops, we disrespect President Bush (a true man of God), and if he passed a Liberal on the street who was dying of thirst, he would not give them one teaspoon full of water. When his audience kind of mumbled to themselves, he goes, I mean it. They are going to destroy this country.

Every week I watch just to be amazed more and more and more.

I do have to give the man credit for the work he has done to build the Liberty University as well as charity work. But this man will tell you all Jews are going to hell because they do not believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and, therefore, they will never be born again. I know the Bible says it too; however, not in that way.

[saltpoint]

30. My objection to Falwell is long-standing. He's a monster.

By chance do you have some observations about Franklin Graham on these subjects?

Let us hear them if you do. Thanks.

[DrWeird]

53. You credit him for building Liberty University?

You mean the fake school that hands out fake degrees?

[DrWeird]

52. Yeah, and no Christians came out against Iraq.

And since Iraq is worse...

You say you've studied Islam, but it's clear you haven't.

You think Mohammed was visited by the angel Gabreille (sic. lol) during the Crusades.

That's like saying Abraham Lincoln and Christopher Columbus fought WWI against the Indians and Frederick Douglass.

and apparently you haven't read the old or new testament, because they "condone murder" just as much as the Koran does.

[cookies7]

67. I actually think your post

is well-thought out. I agree with your assessment of the Muslim religion. I don't remember Jerry Falwell saying anything in particular about one party over another. I guess we all have the right to our views. If he said that, it was wrong.

[saltpoint]

7. Aren't there a host of times when Billy Graham --

-- more or less attended Richard Nixon as the official Nixon religious guy?

That would throw the Graham legacy well into the political realm, seems to me.

[AngryOldDem]

8. I believe he was Nixon's spiritual adviser

...especially toward the very end. I don't know how close they stayed after Nixon left office, though.

[saltpoint]

33. You know, I was thinking what kind of job that would be --

-- to be the spiritual advisor to Richard Nixon.

I wonder if they were using each other -- Nixon using Billy because it endeared him to the silent majority and Billy using Nixon to validate his back-country Christianity.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Yes he was Nixon's 'adviser'

He also supposedly helped ** overcome his alcohol addiction.

[saltpoint]

11. I had heard rumors to that effect, too.

I wonder if there are any behind-the-scenes accounts?

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. No need for behind-the -scenes accounts

I remember. Graham was at the WH all the time during the Nixon admin. It was on the news - a LOT.

[saltpoint]

48. Well, I have to agree --

-- but was keeping my powder dry for now.

Sorry to offend his fans, but I was no big fan of Dick Nixon, even before the Watergate burglary.

What strikes me over and over is how Graham licked up to him the way he did.

Even after Watergate, I mean.

I'm not "stuck in the mud" on that point alone, but it still does strike me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. I never paid a lot of attention to Graham

but probably should have :)

And I have to ask this - which Nixon fans do you think you are offending here on this web site?

[saltpoint]

54. My biased hope is that no one would be --

-- a Nixon fan. I soft-pedaled the description, failing to highlight my actual revulsion at the man.

My first election was Nixon v. McGovern. Probably won't surprise you to know that my side lost.

But ah -- that following winter and spring when all the Watergate indictments began to pour down on Nixon's men.

What a glorious time that was.

(Forgive me for being so sentimental. Would that a similar turn of fate should happen to the current Republican in the White House.)

And on a very separate subject, I wonder what drew Pat to Richard Nixon in the first place. It's none of my damn business, I realize, but I can't help but wonder what she saw in him.

[bobbieinok]

14. see my comment #12 above

[saltpoint]

16. More comprehensive than many newspapers' --

-- summaries. Thanks for including the details and the over-time summary.

[bobbieinok]

20. also he preached the inaugural sermon at the dedication of the Oral

Roberts University in 65 (?)

[frankly_fedup2]

29. I believe Billy Graham visited all the sitting Presidents. Hey,

Dubya claims it was Rev. Graham who showed him the way to Jesus. (wasn't it???) Correct me if I'm wrong.

[saltpoint]

35. No, I can't correct you there -- I think you're right!

I had forgotten that!

Oh God, he DID show Dubya to Jesus.

And now we're stuck with a president who thinks Jesus talks directly to him and dictates U.S. policies.

[mzmolly]

70. Billy Graham denies that he converted shrub by the way.

He did so politely, but he denied it.

[roguevalley]

64. Billy Graham loved to be around Presidents and he particularly

liked Richard Nixon. There was a scandalous tape released a while back where Nixon is going on about Jews, in the most hateful way, he was amazingly democratic in his bigotry: he hated everyone. Graham told him not to worry, he'd 'handle' the Jews. Why? "Because for some reason they like me" or trust me. I think he even used 'those people'. He made it sound like they trusted him to not be a dick and he was fooling them and deceiving them and 'handling' them. He was mortified. I was enraged. He's a complete asshole and his two kids in the ministry come by their evil honestly.

[mzmolly]

71. Yikes, this I did not know.

:scared:

[Greylyn58]

10. I have always liked Billy Graham

even if I didn't always agree with him sometimes. But Franklin is another matter.

I find him to be abrasive and he has said some inflammatory things since 9/11. I hate to say I dislike the man, but his style is just not as welcoming as his fathers.

:eyes:

[saltpoint]

13. I hear you, but --

-- I'm trying to get to the possible source of why he is so much more abrasive than the old man.

Do you know what he has said, for instance, that would make him so different?

[bobbieinok]

15. as I said earlier, I strongly suspect it's a son wanting to outdo his dad

[saltpoint]

17. That might account for the strident tone.

I wish U.S. clergy would be less strident, not more, in the wake of Bush's alienation of our allies.

Because I really have no quarrel with anybody in France, or Yemen, or wherever. You know the story.

[mitchum]

63. Makes sense that he and bush jr are such close friends, doesn't it?

But those two low rent versions of Oedipus would put out YOUR eyes

[Greylyn58]

28. Well...

The way he refers to Muslims as evil and how he denigrates their religion as a whole.

My personal feelings are that ANY religion can be twisted and made to serve a purpose. Case in point is what is happening right now in this country with the Christian right. The bile flowing from some of these so-called Christians is just as bad as the jihadists attacking us.

Hate is hate...whether it is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religion out there.

In truth, I'm not sure why he acts and says the things he does. He is much more political in his actions than his father and he's much more willing to spout his rhetoric.

His father might feel the same way, but I've never heard him say it publicly.

Of course, I could be wrong and this is just my opinion.

[saltpoint]

31. I respect what you've said, and I fully agree --

-- about the bile coming from the Christian Right.

Does Franklin Graham, in your view, align with this imbalance? Is he part of the problem or part of the solution?

[Greylyn58]

37. I wish I knew...

Personally, I think if he continues to carry on the way he does - he's part of the problem.

Spreading a hateful philosophy packaged as Christian love is still nothing more than hate and definitely not Christian...at least not the kind that I practice.

[saltpoint]

38. Well, this is what I was hoping to understand --

-- in this one man's example -- whether or not he was distorting -- I guess ACTIVELY distorting an established text to his own ends.

Fundamentalists of course do this a lot, well, they do it all the time. So I was asking into the connection between this tendency toward distortion and hateful, assaultive preaching and the specific instance of Franklin Graham.

Do you know of any studies or articles that take this problem on directly?

[Greylyn58]

42. Sorry

that's something I can't help you with.

Wish I could because I would love to make some sense of it myself.

on edit: spelling

[saltpoint]

45. It's ok -- I appreciate your taking the time to pitch in --

-- and help me.

Thanks.

[burythehatchet]

19. Sad story relating to Franklin

he runs this christmas shoebox operation called Operation Christman Child (I think). The deal is that companies (religious primarily) collect shoe boxes filled with little toys and trinkets - maybe $5 to 7 per box. So the companies collect thousands of these boxes and deliver them via charter jet to needy people.

...there's a catch...

the kids have to be preached to in order to get their GI Joe's and Hulk action figure.

[saltpoint]

22. Oh man.

That's kind of a swindle, isn't it?

I don't recall anything like that in Jesus' ministry, do you?

[rooboy]

25. No, I think it would have been arrogant of Jesus to promote Christmas. :)

eom.

[saltpoint]

26. Probably so. : )

[frankly_fedup2]

27. Kind of like that very first episode of the Waltons years ago . . .

It was before it became a series. It was like a special Christmas movie. The Children had to say a Bible verse to get a toy. Mary Ellen knew a lot so she told all the kids so they could get toys. It was the Christians doing that as well in the movie.

[saltpoint]

46. I love it that you bring in the Waltons.

Haven't thought of those folks in a long time.

[saltpoint]

43. I tried googling two key words: Franklin Graham, bigot

-- in response to my concern over Franklin Graham's racist comments about Islam and got

7,130

entries.

I scanned the field -- and it was easy to see that Rev. Graham has made a few enemies out there among civil libertarians and liberals, progressives, gays and lesbians, etc.

I thought I might wind up with a couple dozen, but over 7 thousand?

Sheesh.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. try it with quotes around Franklin Graham

and you get about 600...

tP

[InvisibleBallots]

50. An opportunist of the worst kind

This guy didn't say anything until 911, then jumped on the Arab/Muslim-bashing bandwagon, starting preaching (officially) heresey, and trading in on his father's earned reputation. A sleazebag of the highest order.

[saltpoint]

55. Hi, and thanks for your post.

There's a clear percentage (don't know how much exactly) of people out there who are in exact agreement with you.

It's my thought that Franklin Graham might actually be racist, rather than the usual play-the-fear Protestant nitwits like Falwell and Robertson.

Not that an actual racist is any better than someone who manipulates racist views for political gain.

I'm after that distinction in Franklin Graham and would appreciate any other insights you may have on him.

A genuine thanks.

[InvisibleBallots]

57. his father, love him or hate him, was sincere in his beliefs

he was genuinely humbled by his getting suckered by Nixon. Graham Sr. never stole money or cheated on his wife or anything else so grossly hypocritical that televangelists do.

Graham Jr. worships money and fame and wants to keep the cash rolling in. I expect him to shamelessly pimp out his father's dead corpse for money the day daddy dies.

[saltpoint]

59. Umm. Franklin sounds like a bad apple --

-- or maybe even a poisoned apple, like the one the witch tries to give Sleeping Beauty.

Anyway, I dropped the ball on the last post and failed to tell you that I love your DU id name.

It's just excellent.

[mzmolly]

72. How comforting that he and the chimp are "tight" ...

:eyes:

[Ilsa]

51. I never had a problem with his father as I thought he was a sincere

man. But Franklin impresses me as someone who is using his father's name and even his demeanor to create an easy living for himself. My understanding was that Franklin was a real hell-raiser, like W. Franklin espouses an angry vindictive God, whereas his father preached about a loving and forgiving Heavenly Father. I don't like him one bit, and I think Jacobin said it all very, very well.

[saltpoint]

56. Hi, Ilsa.

I would like to come back in my next life as the caliber of writer Jacobin is. We agree on that for sure.

On Franklin's hell-raising days -- I may have failed to say that I don't hold that against him, just because I might have had a more emotionally honest conversation with him in those days than in these latter days.

I have no quarrel with Islamic people at all, and it makes my skin crawl when U.S. high-profile clergy denounce them as "satanic."

That's the crux of my interest in F. Graham right there.

If you have any other insights on this, or just some observations, I would love to hear 'em.

Thanks.

[Ilsa]

60. Thanks, O.C. I don't hold the hell-raising

against him either, just the convenience of getting religion and using both lifestyles for financial gain. Alot of people have lived similar lives but don't try to make a buck off of their enlightening. He seems insincere and judgmental to me.

[mzmolly]

68. Billy Graham is a registered Democrat, his son sounds like a Bushbot.

:shrug:

Though from what I've read the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Perhaps BG switched to Dem after his public friendship with Nixon?

[mitchum]

61. A grifting son of a grifter...

unfortunately for Franklin, he doesn't possess the charisma and marvelous voice of his father (who is also a conman nonetheless)

[roguevalley]

62. he's inflexible, self righteous and willing to say things that can

inflame an already unsteady world. He believes, like his witch sister, with every fiber of his being that if you don't think like he does, you are going to hell. Period. End of story. Any other profession and we'd be checking him for a hood.

[roguevalley]

65. Franklin was a hell raiser and biker guy and caroused, fighting

the 'legacy' of following dad. He was a complete carouser. Then he got Jesus and became in his ministry as extreme as he was in his hell raising. There is never a middle ground for these people. They are at either extreme. Nothing is too foul for this man to say or do. Nothing.

[Piperay]

69. Those kind make me

wanna :puke: they had their fun then they find religion and became self-righteous pompous intolerant assholes! :argh: :mad:

[mzmolly]

73. I've noticed that too.

Extremist thought that is.

[saltpoint]

66. Sincere thanks to all who posted here --

-- much appreciated.

--Old Crusoe

[bobbieinok]

74. found this about Billy's wife Ruth ..... her biog written by noted

mystery Patricia Cornwell

http://www.unctv.org/ruthandbillygraham/peopleevents/ipeople1.html#Cornwell

Patricia Cornwell
Author of the biography of Ruth Bell Graham, Patricia Cornwell began her writing career as a crime reporter for the Charlotte Observer. After winning awards for her newspaper stories, she followed her interests to the chief medical examiner's office in Virginia, where she worked for more than six years as a computer analyst. In the late 1980s she began writing novels, and her first, Postmortem (Scribners, 1990), won the Edgar, Creasey, Anthony and Macavity awards, and the French Prix du Roman d'Aventure in one year. Her other works include Body of Evidence, All that Remains, Cruel and Unusual, and Unnatural Exposure.

....

I found this very surprising

[bobbieinok]

75. Billy Graham and Bob Jones University

there's lots of info about Billy from the 1969 article at this site


ttp://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3ddid%2bbilly%2bgraham%2battend%2bbob%2bjones%2buniversity%253f%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=did+billy+graham+attend+bob+jones+university%3f&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d0F789C408C7952C14%26sid%3d126B589C543D70E14%26qid%3d7B19EA45CDDDEA45988F1A9F179F6F0C%26io%3d9%26sv%3dza5cb0dda%26o%3d0%26ask%3ddid%2bbilly%2bgraham%2battend%2bbob%2bjones%2buniversity%253f%26uip%3d04f4aef4%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dBilly%2bGraham%26ac%3d24%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d106%26te_id%3d%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.positiveatheism.org%2fwrit%2fgraham.htm&s=a&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.positiveatheism.org%2fwrit%2fgraham.htm&qte=0&o=0&abs=Billy+Graham%3a+The+Closest+Thing+To+A+White+House+...+Bob+Jones+University+has+declared+Graham+crusades+off-limits+to+its+students%2c+and+when+Bob+Jones...&tit=Billy+Graham&bin=44de076223201fd1610ab758c25e9610%26s%3d3311721061&cat=wp&purl=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fi%2fb.html%3ft%3dan%26s%3da%26uid%3d0F789C408C7952C14%26sid%3d126B589C543D70E14%26qid%3d7B19EA45CDDDEA45988F1A9F179F6F0C%26io%3d%26sv%3dza5cb0dda%26o%3d0%26ask%3ddid%2bbilly%2bgraham%2battend%2bbob%2bjones%2buniversity%253f%26uip%3d04f4aef4%26en%3dbm%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3d%26ac%3d24%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fmyjeeves.ask.com%2faction%2fsnip&Complete=1

....

Graham was born in Charlotte on Nov. 7, 1918, the son of a successful farmer. As a child, he dreamed of becoming a professional baseball player, but at the age of 16 he went through the sort of conversion experience that was a firm part of Southern culture and resolved to become a preacher. To satisfy his parents, he tried three months at ultra-fundamentalist Bob Jones University (named after a famous evangelist), found it too restrictive and moved on to the Florida Bible Institute. In 1939 he was ordained a Baptist minister and went on to get a B.A. at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill., the most academically respectable of the nation's evangelical institutions.

more....

[madfloridian]

76. Here is an article from 2001 about the religion in the WH. Read it.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1224-02.htm

Rightwing Watch
Religious Right Finds Its Center in Oval Office
Bush Emerges as Movement's Leader After Robertson Leaves Christian Coalition

by Dana Milbank

Pat Robertson's resignation this month as president of the Christian Coalition confirmed the ascendance of a new leader of the religious right in America: George W. Bush.
For the first time since religious conservatives became a modern political movement, the president of the United States has become the movement's de facto leader -- a status even Ronald Reagan, though admired by religious conservatives, never earned. Christian publications, radio and television shower Bush with praise, while preachers from the pulpit treat his leadership as an act of providence. A procession of religious leaders who have met with him testify to his faith, while Web sites encourage people to fast and pray for the president.

There are several reasons for the adulation. Religious conservatives have regarded Bush as one of their own since the presidential campaign, when he spoke during a debate of the guidance of Jesus. At the same time, key figures in the religious right -- Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Billy Graham and Franklin Graham -- have receded in political prominence or influence, in part because they are no longer mobilized by their opposition to a president. Bush's handling of the anti-terrorism campaign since Sept. 11 has solidified his standing by painting him in stark terms as the leader in a fight of good against evil....."

HOWEVER, Howard Dean quotes Bush as governor in his new book, "You Have the Power" as referring to the Christian Coalition...and saying "I hate those folks."