Apple sued by iTunes user

[nolabels]

Apple sued by iTunes user

Apple made me buy one! posted 9:34am EST Fri Jan 07 2005 - submitted by Matthew

NEWS
Thomas Slattery of California is suing Apple because he can't play his iTunes-bought songs on anything but an iPod. Mr. Slattery believes that what Apple is doing breaks anti-competition laws, and he wants damages because he was "forced to purchase an Apple iPod" to listen to the music he had bought.

The lawsuit states:

Apple has turned an open and interactive standard into an artifice that prevents consumers from using the portable hard drive digital music player of their choice. ... Apple has unlawfully bundled, tied, and/or leveraged its monopoly in the market for the sale of legal online digital music recordings to thwart competition in the separate market for portable hard drive digital music players, and vice-versa.

Apple has refused to comment on the case at this time.

Read more at BBC News.

MATTHEW'S OPINION
The anti-trust expert the BBC News asked about this says Slattery can win if he can prove that the iTunes brand is "a market in itself separate from the rest of the online music market." iTunes isn't different from other music stores, though--it just chooses a different way of presenting the media you buy
Apple made me buy one! posted 9:34am EST Fri Jan 07 2005 - submitted by Matthew

NEWS
Thomas Slattery of California is suing Apple because he can't play his iTunes-bought songs on anything but an iPod. Mr. Slattery believes that what Apple is doing breaks anti-competition laws, and he wants damages because he was "forced to purchase an Apple iPod" to listen to the music he had bought.

The lawsuit states:

Apple has turned an open and interactive standard into an artifice that prevents consumers from using the portable hard drive digital music player of their choice. ... Apple has unlawfully bundled, tied, and/or leveraged its monopoly in the market for the sale of legal online digital music recordings to thwart competition in the separate market for portable hard drive digital music players, and vice-versa.
(snip)
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2005Jan/gee20050107028590.htm

[berni_mccoy]

1. Ummm...

How about using iTunes to BURN A CD. Then you can do whatever you want to with the songs.

DUH! This kind of law suit is what gives lawyers a bad name.

[AlCzervik]

3. Ding ding Ding!!!!!

yup, i do that all the time.

[BlueEyedSon]

4. Major PITA

(pain in the ass)

Assume you have bought 1000 songs on iTunes over the past year. Now you buy a non-Apple portable music player.

You burn 100 CDS and then re-rip them to MP3?

Ugh.

[berni_mccoy]

6. Use a virtual CD/DVD drive

or use a DVD.

[BlueEyedSon]

9. Does iTunes support burning to WAV (uncompressed audio) to a DVD

I don't think so

[berni_mccoy]

16. I think BlueEyedSon

works for Bill Gates.

[BlueEyedSon]

21. I guess it's fair to say you work for Apple's legal dept.

I run WIN2k, SUSE v9 and iTunes/mini(green), platform boy.

And still no answer to my Q about burning WAV to DVD (not backing up whatever format you have in your iTunes "library").

[emulatorloo]

45. Yes it does. . .and here is a doc from Apple explaining how to do it

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93033

<snip>
Backing up your music files in iTunes 4


To burn a data CD or DVD


Open iTunes.

From the iTunes menu, choose Preferences (Windows: From the Edit menu, choose Preferences).

Click the Burning button.

Choose Data CD or DVD as the Disc Format.

Click OK.

Create a playlist that includes all the items in your library (see steps above), or all the items you want to back up to the CD or DVD.

Select the playlist you want to burn to the CD or DVD, then click the Burn Disc button.

Insert a blank CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, or DVD-RW disc, and click Burn Disc again.

Any audio files in the playlist (MP3, AAC, AIFF, WAV, Audible) are copied to the CD or DVD.
<snip>

[AP]

12. It's still faster than sitting around making audio tapes of LPs...

...to play on your AquaWalkman!

[Francine Frensky]

37. So don't shop at iTunes!!

This is a stupid argument, like saying "just because I bought my hamburger at McDonald's, why do they force me to use their cheap napkins?"

[K-W]

39. No Alberto Gonzolez gives Lawyers a bad name,

Anyone who takes a situation like this and makes it a reason to not like lawyers was looking for a reason to not like lawyers.

[ghostsofgiants]

61. If you burned these already compressed files to a cd...

...then rip them to another compressed format, that's double the compression, thus the quality of the audio file is lowered. That's pretty lame in my opinion, that if I wanted to use iTunes (which I never will) with a non-iPod device that I would have to sacrifice the quality of my files.

[tridim]

2. This is precisely why I laugh when people claim Apple is the good guy

Apple is every bit as anti-competitive as Microsoft. To take the argument further, I can't run ANY Apple software on anything but an Apple built computer. That's the main reason I'll never switch.

I wasn't aware that iPods only played iPod encoded music, do they not play mp3's?

[berni_mccoy]

5. iTunes runs on any platform

AND, you can even import CD's and MP3's.... basically any music format can be imported.

And iPods can do a whole lot more than just store/playback music.

I agree, Apple is a corporation just like any other. This doesn't make them evil or malicious though.

[BlueEyedSon]

8. The iTunes store only delivers content in AAC format, which is

Apple proprietary. So there really is no "platform" flexibility. That's the problem.

[HuckleB]

11. So don't use that store.

It's quite simple, really.

This is a ridiculous lawsuit.

[berni_mccoy]

13. When there is a solution for the end-user

Why does Apple need to provide platform flexibility?

An end user can rip to CD/DVD/file system and do whatever they want.

Apple has no responsibility to do use anyone's format.

Furthermore, AAC is the industry standard format for DVD-Audio.

[TheDonkey]

20. I didn't realize that itunes music could only be iPod accessible

if that is true Apple is being a little naughty.
But you'd think it would be good business sense to have iTunes compatible with other MP3 players to expand their market for the store.

[AP]

24. That's not the case. To use iTunes music on other MP3 player, you have to

burn it to a CD first and then upload it to your MP3 player from that CD. You can't upload it straight from iTunes, IIUC.

They're trying to make iTunes-iPod the most convenient set of products. But they're not trying to make it impossible to use iTunes with another MP3 player.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. iPods play MP3s, but iTunes uses a proprietary format (AAC)

so if you change your player hardware to a pure MP3 device, you're out of luck.

[emulatorloo]

44. You are very very wrong - iTunes encodes MP3, Aiff, WAV, AAC, Apple Lossl

ess and of course plays back those formats

[neoteric lefty]

29. I agree on the fact that the iTunes/iPod thing is

stupid, but the reason why Apple's software doesn't run on any other platforms is that the hardware itself (mostly the processor) is inherently different than the x86 (Intel, AMD, etc.) platform that is so much more prevalent. It is not like Apple can flick a switch and boom, its software works on Windows. It needs to be re-written from the ground up, and there is not reason Apple would/should want to do this.

[tridim]

32. That's not what I meant

In the PC world I don't have to buy a Microsoft PC to run Win32 apps. I choose to buy parts and put together my own computer and it just works. I literally have thousands of hardware choices. Not so in the Apple world. If you want to run MacOS, you must also buy Apple hardware.

[drdtroit]

46. "If you want to run MacOS, you must also buy Apple hardware. ..."

That's because people who prefer Mac's enjoy using a product that doesn't constantly and consistently crash and invade your system with viruses.

[tridim]

55. No, it's because Apple doesn't license their OS to run on other hardware

[emulatorloo]

40. YES, of course THEY PLAY MP3s and many other formats

PS iTunes software is Apple software and runs on Windows XP

PSS this lawsuit is just stupid

[AP]

10. I believe you can burn a CD with iTunes and then use that CD to download

the songs to other MP3 players.

So, using the proprietery format doesn't really force you to by the iPod. It just forces you to take other manual, time-consuming steps if you don't use the iPod as your MP3 player.

Am I wrong about this?

[HuckleB]

14. You've got it down.

[AP]

22. This guy is actually suing Apple because they didn't make it easy enough..

...for him to use a competing product.

I wonder what the case law is on that kind of thing. Other anti-competition suits probable have products that can only be used with each other, or involve contracts which have financial penalties for using competitive products.

I suspect the court is going to say that Apple is under no obligation to make it as easy as possible for their customerst to use competitor's products.

Another part of this case might be the issue of notice. That doesn't have to do with competition, but seems to be an issue here nonetheless. If it's not part of the complaint it might be because whatever notice Apple gives its customers already satisfies legal requirements.

[berni_mccoy]

15. You are correct...

And you aren't limited to burning to CDs (DVDs or virtual CD/DVD drives work just as well).

[BlueEyedSon]

17. Do you own/use iTunes?

[berni_mccoy]

19. Yes on both Mac and PC

and I backup regularly to a media server in my house (don't want to lose all that music from a single HD crash).

I will say that iTunes is WAY ADDICTIVE, so, if anyone's looking for a lawsuit, it may be easier to prove 1-armed bandit syndrome </sarcasm>.

It's very easy to burn DVD/CDs with on either platform. A DVD can hold a TON of music.

[emulatorloo]

41. Download iTunes, it is free, and it will run on your WinXP box

http://www.apple.com/itunes

it is a great jukebox program and it supports MANY AUDIO FORMATS

[Moderator]

18. moving

this is actually a blog entry based on a BBC story that's past the Late Breaking News 12-hour rule.

[NYC Liberal]

23. So using this guy's logic,

If I used a PC, and had a bunch of PC-only software on it, then switched to a Mac...I could sue those software companies because I now cannot use that software?

Frivilous lawsuit.

[BlueEyedSon]

25. Consumers have an expectation about purchased music.

They don't perceive Springsteen's latest album as "Apple-only software" which is disposable if I change music players.

[emulatorloo]

43. LISTEN, OTHER PLAYERS ARE STARTING TO SUPPORT THE AAC FORMAT

I am sorry to yell, but enough already. . .Apple's iTunes Store format is AAC, which is basically mp4. Other players are starting to support it. I know you hate Apple, but this lawsuit is frivolous. It is like complaining that my cassettes won't play in my CD player.

[BlueEyedSon]

47. I love Apple, I hate proprietary non-open systems

[emulatorloo]

48. iPod and iTunes hardly qualify as proprietary non-open systems

iTunes supports many MP3 players (i use it w an iPod and a Virgin Flash MP3 player)

iPod plays many audio formats (WAV AIFF MP3 etc)

As to the AAC format w DRM protection on iTunes store, there was no way the record companies would have let the iTunes store go forward without copy protection. (and quite frankly, I think it is cool that Apple lets you burn those files to an Audio CD, so you can have a copy w/p protection)

Again, you outta download iTunes for Windows - it is a great piece of software for managing/encoding your music library, backing it up, and listing to streaming radio stations.

[BlueEyedSon]

49. So you have bought music on iTunes and loaded it up

on your Zen or Rio?

[emulatorloo]

52. I am big on buying CD's and ripping them, only purchased 2 iTunes Store

songs. . .and have about another 10 or so that were free downloads from the store or won during the Pepsi promotion. So it is not an issue for me. . .

However, it is easy enough to burn an audio CD out of iTunes of those files and then re-encode them as mp3.

Apple doc on burning an Audio CD w Windows version of iTunes:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93353

[BlueEyedSon]

53. Right we went through that 50 postings ago, what if you have 1000

paid downloads?

[emulatorloo]

54. Play them on the computer, and figure out how to take them mobile

if I, me myself and I, make the decision that I want a player that doesn't support the format.

Look. I bought the Beatles White Album in the following formats:

Vinyl
8-track
Cassette
Compact Disc

because I decided I wanted different players at different times.

The record companies are not going to allow Apple to sell an unprotected digital file.

Nor is Apple forcing you or the litigant to buy an iPod to play iTunes store music - you can play them on your computer w free iTunes software.

And furthermore, the iTunes software allows you to convert the files to a format that can be played on an audio CD player or converted to another audio format. My 8 track player never did that!

[NYC Liberal]

56. You use Hymn:

http://hymn-project.org/download.php

to convert your m4p files to MP3 files. Case closed.

[BlueEyedSon]

59. Not for the "casual" computer user.

[truebrit71]

26. Stupid bloody lawsuit..Won't go anywhere either...

..simply a nuisance....Imagine the nerve of a company making one product that ONLY works with products made by the same company...Next you'll be telling me that Ford products don't work on Chevy's....

I have an iPod mini, and use iTunes regularly, fabulous product and great ease of use. Why in the world would you expect Apple's stand alone music store to be compatible with other MP3 players?

I hope the idiot that brought this suit has to cover legal fees for BOTH parties when it is dismissed....

[htuttle]

28. Actually, if the guy won, it would be an amazing precedent

It would either force all online music stores to use formats without copy protection, or more likely force them to close down, since the record companies won't allow their songs to be sold without it.

A ruling in this guy's favor could be used to say that ALL copy protection is illegal. Wouldn't that be a kettle of fish?

[neoteric lefty]

31. It is not stupid when a single company owns so much market share.

Now, I don't know what % Apple controls with online music sales, but it can get to a point where it is considered a monopoly and must adhere to certain rules. Just look at Microsoft. It supplied a product (Windows) that is used on >80% of the world's personal computers (just a estimate). That is well and good, but when it packages a separate product together with that OS, then that basically cripples the market already out there for that second product. I agree that this is a tough gray area to explore, but this case may have precedent and may be good for consumers in the long run if it forces Apple to open up its policies.

[htuttle]

27. It's not as if Apple uses AAC for the iMusic Store because they want to

The record companies required some sort of copy protection before they'd allow Apple to sell their music.

Do you think the same situation doesn't exist on the Windows side? Every online music store out there uses some sort of proprietary format to discourage piracy. At least with Apple's AAC, you can get around it, inconvenient though it may be.

I have an iPod full of music, none of it from the Apple Music Store. Wavs, MP3s, AIF's, you name it. iPods do not force one to buy music from Apple, but the music from Apple's music store must be played on an iPod. This is clearly stated when you buy a song from them.

[nolabels]

33. Glad to hear it's that way

I was going to pick one up to substitute for buying a CD player for my car. I saw some accessories, they have a cradle that plugs into the lighter outlet that transmits a few different radio frequencies so you can hear on the car radio.

The system looked good at first but read some reviews by others and said it still had some glitches. Sounds to me like all this stuff with all it portability is still a year or so out really for John Q. Public though.

I would hate to put all that data on a ipod and loose because of a dead battery or something. I think I will be just taking that old 40 gig hard drive and slaving off the other for my permanent library at this time

[htuttle]

34. My iPod battery dies all the time -- no data loss

There's an actual tiny hard drive inside, not just a RAM brick, so all the data survives losing power.

I use my iPod as a portable firewire hard drive as often as I listen to it. It's very handy.

[nolabels]

58. Just got back from looking at Car Audio at Bestbuy and some other place

I say Yikes to it all. Was looking for a little better one to replace the one in my teenage sons ride. Frankly it is just down right frightful all the dang gizmos they have to stick on the sled today. Thanks for the hint, guess I will look more into the ipod, it sounds much more simpler except if you also want sirius radio.

This is a place to start I guess (at least I will make my son look here first :P )

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/

[InvisibleBallots]

30. Apple is doing just what Microsoft did

"Apple has unlawfully bundled, tied, and/or leveraged its monopoly in the market for the sale of legal online digital music recordings to thwart competition in the separate market for portable hard drive digital music players, and vice-versa."

We'd solve all of these problems if everyone used Ogg Vorbis files:

http://www.vorbis.com

[Vox_Reason]

35. Friends don't let friends listen to MP3.

SHN or FLAC for me, baby.

[BlueEyedSon]

50. What is your position on AAC?

How about RealAudio? :puke:

[ghostsofgiants]

62. OGG-Vorbis, biooootch!

kthxbye

[Francine Frensky]

36. I love iTunes, use it all the time, and don't have an iPod

this guy must be a republican free-loader trying to make a quick buck.

[scarlett1]

42. I too listen to iTunes and don't have an iPod

[neomonkey]

38. Another option: record the streaming audio

There are plenty of programs which allow you to directly record any internet stream.

Not that I have done this, of course not, wouldn't want anyone thinking I break the law for heaven's sake. But theoretically, you could record whatever you play over I-tunes radio or your downloaded library and save to your hard drive. Most of these programs offer you the choice to save as mp3 files but I would prefer to save as .wav files then convert to an mp3 format of my liking with another program, voila, and I don't have an Ipod.

[BlueEyedSon]

51. A geeks-only solution.

[lojasmo]

57. Hmmm, I bet he accepted the TOS

Perhaps he failed to read them?

<lojasmo scratches head>

[alexisfree]

60. can this be just like the old lady who...

sue MacDonalds for not telling her the coffee was hot?!:eyes: