What's wrong with fixing Social Security?

[RaleighNCDUer]

I don't mean fixing like Bush's plan, which resembles fixing my cat, but simply bringing it up to date.

When SS was created they more or less arbitrarily chose retirement age as 65 because that was the age at which significant numbers of workers became liabilities due to age related illness. A person worked 45 - 50 years, retired for 10, then died.

With today's advances in healthcare, that could easily be moved up 10 years, retire at 75 and then have ten years retirement. So what's the problem with two little fixes -- 1) raise retirement age to 67, and 2) move the contribution cap to $100,000 immediately, then adjust to inflation every subsequent year.

Comments?

[rurallib]

1. take the cap off

Why not tax earned money past $100,000? Never understood why there is a cap at all.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. I agree with removing the cap entirely, but realistically do you

think it would ever get through congress to do so? Perhaps removing the cap entirely on earned income, but leave investment income out of it -- Bush buddies would probably go for that.

[WI_DEM]

2. end the cap, but we already work harder than any

other industrial nation and I'm not willing to work until I'm 75--unless I choose to do something part time on my own, not because I have to.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Retirement at 67, not 75. I was just saying that if things were

equal to 1936, it would be pegged at 75 because mortality rate increase during the so-called retirement years. People today are as likely to see 85 as they were to see 75 back then.

[TahitiNut]

3. Please read this ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2894430

Or this ...
http://www.livejournal.com/users/tahitinut/467.html

[RaleighNCDUer]

That is incredible! Great charts!

I appreciate charts. I process graphic information much more easily than written.

As I noted in another post below, I had not even considered the impact of the minimum wage on SS solvency. You think that is why the r-wingers are so against it, because a functioning minimum wage would make SS a moot issue?

It is astounding that they could argue against it, see that the GDP is at it's best in times of equitable wages and lowered corporate profits. Even with lowered corporate profit margins, they do better because of the better economy.

Once again, TahitiNut, you impress me.

[bunkerbuster1]

27. Fantastic analysis. It's bookmarked.

The conclusion is devastating, and bears repeating:

"The projected viability of Social Security funding is a canary in our socioeconomic coal mine. Replacing the canary with a snake does not serve our economic health; it merely ignores the warning."

Another observation: I've been decrying that we run our national elections like a "banana republic." I never realized, before, that perhaps this is merely a side effect of already BEING a banana republic.

Jeepers.

[TahitiNut]

38. Thank you.

It's taken me years to come around to this realization. Up until 1999 and even afterwards, I would've vigorously resisted these notions. I had to discover it for myself, looking at the numbers and doing my own study and analysis. I guess I'm dense - it seems so obvious, now. Too much was missing in my education, I think, even though my undergrad's a Liberal Arts major (math).

[StephanieMarie]

4. I'm a mathematician

Bush's plan is to dismantel SS and give his banking buddies a big gift while he's at it.
Here's a surefire way to fix social security: raise the minimum wage, then index it to inflation from then on. The huge majority of SS taxes collected are at the lower income scales. Raise the minimum wage and problem is solved. Index it, and you never have to visit the issue again!

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Great idea. Surprised I hadn't considered that part of it.

Probably because no one else is talking about how minimum wages affect SS.

I wonder why.

[bunkerbuster1]

28. Socialist! Commie Pinko!

trying to improve the lot of the little guy! what kinda Murkan are you?

to answer your question--it's because these ratfuckers have us by the balls. Many Democrats approach issues of economic class so timidly because they get slammed as "losers" and "class warfare" proponents by not just the reThugs but by the MSM.

I wish I were oversimplifying, but I suspect I'm not.

[Wisc Badger]

5. Sounds like a plan to me as long

as the indexing to inflation is not done with the initial composing of benefit, if you do that then the young people now (20 or so) will take a monumental screw job of benefit loss (up wards of 40%).

The rest of your plan should work though I would lift the contribution cap completely.

By the way the retirement age has already been raised to 67.O8)

[AG78]

6. Nothing

But the plan of Norquist is the one that will be implemented.

But yes, the easiest thing to do would be to raise the cap, or get rid of it and make it some kind of progressive tax. But that would help the people, and guys like Norquist can't wait until the last WW2 vet dies, so he's not really worried about the people.

[papau]

7. NC - the retirement age was raised to 67 by Reagan! A fact the media

tries to hide.

But you are correct as "fix" now if broken..

But it does not appear broken.

If in 2020 they still think a 2043 problem occurs, that Congress can more the retirement age up to 70 from Reagan's 67.

Better would be ending the wage cap.

Even Better would be applying payroll tax to investment income in addition to wage income.

Indeed the last two more than fix any problem and indeed result in too much money - so we might need to lower the payroll tax rate.

But if the rich have too much power, a simple 1% increase in EE's and ER's tax rate in 2020 on a wage base capped - so as to not bother the rich - current structure - ends the problem.

The game with private accounts is to destroy SS.

Clinton and the current Dems WANT PRIVATE ACCOUNTS AS AN ADDON - a voluntay addional withholding that is outside the current Soc Sec system.

The above addiotional voluntary payroll increase private accounts idea is the only basis for compromize. I will spend my last dime defeating Dems in the next election that go along with any carve out of current payroll tax private accounts idea.

[bleedingheart]

9. retire at 75...no thanks...

my mom is 72 and in relatively good health but while she is still living...she isn't in the kind of shape to work a 40 hour work week, commuting back and forth..etc

Personally I am aiming for 65...I want to enjoy some time off before I die.

Quality of life is a huge factor, just cuz you live longer doesn't mean you are going to be at the stamina level you were when you were 35 at age 65 or 70...

[papau]

12. You can retire at 62 under all plans - just FULL BENEFIT is only paid

if you wait to 67 now - and perhaps 70 in 2045 for new retires.

Reagan's 67 is being phased in now so you may be able to get an age 66 FULL BENEFIT deal if you are old enough.

If you are not 65 now, do not plan on a full benefit retirent at 65 in the future under the Reagan Law now in effect.

[bleedingheart]

22. that is just depressing...

personally raising it so high seems like torture....

[amazona]

42. yeah, retire at 75 means can't retire until disabled

A retirement age for jobs with a physical component is especially unfair since it means that the worker won't retire until he is physically disabled. I wonder how much time some people spend around actual people in their late 60s and early 70s. Most can't work a full-time job involving lots of physical effort without risk of chronic pain and injury.

I think if retirement age was raised to age 75 it would mean that CEOs and others in cushy jobs could hold onto their seats and keep younger blood from rising, but people in hard dirty jobs would simply be worked until they were physically disabled. SO it would be a bad deal all round.

[Capn Sunshine]

13. SOCIAL SECURITY ISN'T BROKEN

It doesn't need to be "Fixed"In fact, if we do nothing, it's funded fully through 2022. Even then it would only be 75% funded-- which seems problematic until you realize that the REST of the govt' even today is 0% funded. This doesn't bother them; what's the "crisis" with SS? It's a scam is the answer.

The "crisis" is actually on Wall Street where they desperately need to replace the cash flow from the baby boomers with something else as Baby Boomers sell their stocks and move to fixed investments not in the stock market. Currently, there aren't enough buyers to accomodate the projected selling. UNLEsS we create a whole new source of purchasers: govvie programs and funds buying for all those individual acounts.

Oh, and conversion costs run about 3 TRILLION dollars; but deficits don't seem to bother these guys.

This is REALLY about the stated neocon goal of dismantling everything great that works in our government, starting with the New Deal, because:

A) it was created and legislated by DEMOCRATS to help THE PEOPLE

B) The Neocons despise the idea of people thinking about government as a vehicle for helping people. In fact they are spending hoping to bankrupt the government , making it less influential that State governments and corporate entities.

First step: "fix" something that really screws things up for the future.

Understand? It's always about money for private interest groups and screwing over the people so they develop a healthy hate for anything Federal.

What needs to be "fixed" is the rapacious unchecked attitudes of these assclowns

[Squeech]

15. I couldn't agree more

You should also realize that the general fund is using up Social Security surpluses, and has been since Captain Trifecta's original coup. If not for the SS surplus last year, the 2004 deficit would be in excess of $660 billion.

This was what Al Gore meant when he spoke of a lockbox.

Bush has never told anything remotely resembling the truth on any other issue, why believe him now?

[raggedcompany]

23. Exactly.

nitpick: I thought the top estimate for conversion cost is 2 trillion, not three.

[FreakinDJ]

14. Tell congress we want them to payback social security

They have stolen Billions out of social security

It should be paid back with interest

Bush's plan is a scam to forgive all the debt he has incurred by stealing 40 billion of our money

[Yupster]

29. And where should they get the money from?

To pay back those hundreds of billions looted?

[FreakinDJ]

44. Tax the rich - stop the war - end coporate give aways

Too many to list

Actually for an industrialized nation we get the lowest return on our tax dollars

When you add it all up for some one earning less then 100k anually we are totally ripped off.

[Strelnikov_]

16. If They Are Looking For Things To 'Fix', Here's A Place To Start

I suggest they concentrate on:

1) IraqNam
2) Looming energy drawdown due to peaking of fossil fuel energy resources.
3) General Federal Budget starting with Medicare costs.

Oh, that's right, none of the above put's working people's hard earned money into the pockets of Wall Street investors.

[oneold1-4u]

17. Worried about "the people"

It is scary, to say the least, that this administration would attempt to try to make any part of America better. Not one single "good" thing has been accomplished YET! Four more years of these same attempts or accomplishments, and we better all move out of the country! These scavengers look forward to the day when they seize your piggy banks so you will have nothing to leave with!

[TahitiNut]

18. Don't be a victim of the myth of the "average".

When people speak of "life expectancy," they're usually (if informed at all) loosely referring to average life expectancy. It's a myth to regard an increase in the "average" as merely an increase in retirement years. It's not.

For example, reduced infant mortality results in an increase in average life expectancy, even if absolutely no other age-related mortality rate is reduced. The impact of reduced mortality rates of younger people is to increase the aggregate working years of the population. Such an increase has a greater impact on OASDI revenues than on benefits paid.

The key to Social Security is a healthy, fully-employed, fairly-paid working class.

Our current "health care system" is weakest for the young, unemployed, working class person. Fix it.

Our current Federal Minimum Wage is at the lowest in over 50 years! Raise it.

The Bushoilini Regime has decimated the working class, economically disenfranchising about ten million people from our nation's payrolls. Full employment policies are required. Penalize off-shoring. Enforce laws against employment of illegal aliens. Immediately.

[idiosyncratic]

19. Nothing, but there are much better ways than *'s "ideas"

Means testing and moving the contribution cap up would both fix Social Security.

Means testing would only come into play for the very wealthy, such as the person I just heard about who is getting a $100,000 per month pension!!

[Jose Diablo]

20. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Why is Bu*h's talking points about fixing SS even being brought-up. I could see bringing it up to point out that Bu*h is full of crap, but whats being said here is like "yep, it's broke" lets fix it.

I could see raising the contribution cap, if there was a shortfall, but there is not. So why offer a fix?

SS is good just as it is untill 2040, then the contribution cap can be raised. And that 'fix' gets it to 2070.

All Bu*h really wants is to get his and his buddies greedy hands on another retirement fund. Bu*h doesn't want to 'fix' anything, except screw-us.

These guys have been trying to gut SS for 60 years, we gonna let them now?

[UdoKier]

21. The fact that it ain't broke, for one thing.

When shortfalls become imminent, that can be an option. The fund is solvent for the duration. There is no need to do ANYTHING right now.

[sandnsea]

24. Don't look now, mine is already at 67

I'm 47, what's your retirement age? Do you know?

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. Actually, I don't know. All I know is, at my income level I cannot

afford to retire at all. I've sworn off WalMart, but in another 15-20 years I'll be spending my days saying "Hi, Welcome to WalMart".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Working till age 75 is fine for someone like me, BUT...

for someone who works construction or in a factory or at some other type of manual labor, no way!

I'm only 54, and if I had to work at something like being a hotel maid or assembling widgets at a factory eight hours a day, I'd find it exhausting already, and if I had to keep going till 75? No thanks!

[InvisibleBallots]

30. Raise the retirement age? Privatize Social Security? Cut benefits?

Whatever plan you have in mind, I want none of it and will never vote for anyone, Democrat or Republican, who supports it.

[jswordy]

31. It ain't broke!

http://www.aarp.org/socialsecurity-about/Articles/a2003-04-02-ssfinancing.html

AARP IS HEADED BY A REPUBLICAN.

Thank you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. This is good. If AARP holds firm on SS I might even be induced

to rejoin, having let my membership lapse in the wake of the prescription plan mess.

[jswordy]

39. I have read widely on SS from a pretty big selection...

...of economists and experts, and they all agree that there is no crisis in the system. Only the rightie shill economists are alarmist about it. Many say it is good to go evenr longer than AARP does...til 2055 at 100 percent!

Yet Bush said in a speech today that "Baby Boomers like me" will not get their benefits if something is not done now. That is a bald-faced lie.

This is the same pattern Bush used with Iraq...create a "crisis" so people will do what you want.

Let's not let it work this time, OK?

[joe_sixpack]

33. Personally, I think we need to change the way we view the program.

We were taught to view social security as a sort of personal account that we paid into and that the government would either hold on to or invest for us. That is why so many people are swayed by the argument that private accounts can offer a better "return" than social security. I prefer to view it more realistically as a tax. We pay the tax in order to collectively provide aid for elderly citizens who might be more at risk of falling into poverty or destitution without the assistance it provides. I don't think it was ever meant to provide an income you could fully live on, was it? You pay the tax, and when you arrive at that point in your life, should you need it it's there. If not, I don't think you should be allowed to partake of it. I'd be perfectly willing to forego the monthly check if my financial life goes the way I'm planning. I hope to be able to retire on my own funds and investments. For those who do need it, I'm glad it will be there. There are a lot of people without children who pay taxes that go to support local schools. They realize it's for the collective good. This is a similar situation.

[papau]

35. more like any insurance premium where you have no rights to the company

assets - but you have a future payment right - like say when the house burns down..

how many folk calculate a rate of return for fire insurance?

[goodhue]

34. They already have raised the retirement age to 67!

Raising contribution cap is a great idea. I'd raise it to $150,000. That alone would fix any perceived problem.

[Tracer]

37. Yes, but only for people born in 1960 or later.

For people born from 1937 to 1959, the age for full retirement starts at 65 and goes up in monthly increments to 66 and 10 months in 1959.

[newportdadde]

36. I can't imagine doing this same corporate BS till I'm 67 much less 75.

[amazona]

40. hello they ALREADY raised the retirement age

They've ALREADY raised the retirement age. Don't see where it can be raised any higher.

Do you honestly want to make it impossible for young people to move ahead in their careers? There are only so many good jobs at the top, you know.

Anyway, we can pretend all we like that people are living longer, but I know too many good people dead or disabled in their 50s.

[progressivejazz]

41. I bet you work at a desk.

Try working with your body for a while and then tell us whether you think 75 is a good age to have to keep working to.

Full Disclosure: I've always worked at a desk.

[Zhade]

43. It's not broken? Just a thought.

NT!

[PROGRESSIVE1]

45. Raise the retirement age to 68 years and up the cap to $100,000.....

indexed for inflation.