Why does Howard Zinn go on about Columbus so much?

[FormerDittoHead]

...kind of an academic point, but it's kind of a straw dog, isn't it?

The first part of his "People's History" book goes on about Columbus, and last night's appearence on Jon Stewart's show, Zinn was making all of these comparisons between Columbus and Bush.

Hey, I'm all for demonizing Bush, but PLEASE, *exactly* how MUCH does Columbus have to do with OUR history?

I'm thinking stuff like, geographical borders, language, laws, customs, origins of the people who settled here, etc. etc.

As far as I can tell, we were little more than a pit stop for his trip to Central and South America, paving the way for the Spanish to go DOWN *THERE*.

While Zinn goes on and on about Columbus' search for slaves, it was because the North American natives resisted becoming slaves, that the Spanish didn't bother.

It was 100 YEARS *before* the Pilgrims came that the Spanish did all the bad things to SOUTH AMERICA which Zinn credits Columbus paving the way for (and BOY, did they EVER!). Give credit where it's due, in SOUTH America.

100 YEARS *before* the Pilgrims, in SOUTH America, the Spanish established advanced cities, including universities and structures which were more advanced than anything in North America for almost 150 years after.

So, come on, Howard, talk about the Dutch and the English, but give Columbus the *asterisk* in OUR history that he deserves. Stop the straw dogs arguments.

[devilgrrl]

1. Perhaps you should read his book as find out for yourself!

Because by the tone of your post it's pretty obvious that you haven't a damn clue of what you're talking about.

[BrklynLiberal]

3. hmmmmmmmmm bet you are right.

:wow:

[IrateCitizen]

6. You beat me to it. The OP is clueless on Columbus.

I think if he actually read Zinn's book, he'd come away with a different impression. It's glaringly obvious he hasn't read it, or he's just making up his own history to contradict Zinn.

[FormerDittoHead]

31. Whoops! Got the f*cking book right the f*ck in front of me.

...perhaps you should read my original post before you shoot your mouth off again?

"Because by the tone of your post it's pretty obvious that you haven't a damn clue of what you're talking about."

I could reproduce the entire first chapter here word for f*cking word, but Zinn's account about Columbus talks about Haiti and Cuba, etc. NOT about the UNITED STATES or what became of it because (again, you really should check out what I actually wrote instead of what you THOUGHT I wrote) Columbus really didn't have much to do with what became of the United States!

Yes, in history books, Columbus (was) treated like a hero (page 10) and yes, what he did was really deplorable (certainly in our eyes), and our history used to be taught (maybe will again?) in this "hero" way.

I didn't *suggest* or *imply* otherwise.

That wasn't my point, and if you bothered to *read* my post before you decided to INSULT me, you'd know that.

But *attack* me, why don't you? You don't like my "tone"!

I agree with Zinn about the English settlers in the Americas (pp 12) and what they did to the Indians. But that had NOTHING to do with Columbus, who Zinn chose to go on and on about last night...

[UdoKier]

2. Columbus is still widely thought of as a hero.

Many people have no idea what a thug he really was. And he really did set the stage for 400 years of nonstop atrocities against native Americans by the European invaders.

Bush is just like him in his complete confidence in his own righteousness and lack of ability to see those he is invading as human being who should be allowed to determine their OWN culture's destiny.

[htuttle]

4. Columbus was a hero to most

But he never meant shit to me, you see
Straight up racist that sucker was
Simple and plain
Motherfuck him and John Wayne

(with profuse apologies to Chuck D)

[IrateCitizen]

9. In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. In 1493,...

... Columbus stole all that he could see.

[KurtNYC]

29. Most of my heros don't appear on no stamps

And according to the book "1421: The year China discovered America" Columbus had a map. A copy of a map that the Chinese had created.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

34. Of course

The Chinese had a map of the east coast of the U.S.?

[KC21304]

5. But didn't you love it when Zinn said

while comparing Columbus to Bush, at least Columbus went along on the invasion. That was hilarious.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. The best line of the show last night!!!!

[Old Mouse]

8. Its about the creation of heroes

And the power that grants.

There isn't a major city in this country without a street named after the guy yet he's the only man in history that actually succeeded at genocide.

[MichaelHarris]

10. SO should we just

ignore the fact that Columbus's men used to test the sharpness of their swords by slicing the flesh of native Americans? I never see that portrayed on the Columbus Day floats.

[Stanchetalarooni]

11. Have patience, grasshopper.

One does not learn how to de-Rush ones self in under 1000 posts.
You ask good questions.
Keep asking.
May the force.........

[otohara]

27. MTFBWY - too!

that was a nice post!

[prolesunited]

12. Just a little pointer: It's strawMAN

The straw-man rhetorical technique is a the practice of refuting weaker arguments than one's opponents actually offer. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent.


One can set up a straw man in several different ways:

Present only a portion of the opponent's arguments (often a weak one), refute it, and pretend that all of their arguments have been refuted.

Present the opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted.

Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute their arguments, and pretend that every argument for that position has been refuted.

Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that that person represents a group that the speaker is critical of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[FormerDittoHead]

32. I guess I was thinking of the Sam Peckinpah movie! Thanks.

...and I studied both conversational as well as symbolic (Aristotelian) logic in college. Please forgive me, Dr. Applebaum!

[Jesus H. Christ]

13. Maybe you should do some reading.

You can find much on Columbus and his contemporaries at your local library.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. Isn't there a quote about history being written by the victors?

So one has to assume when one reads history, it is being seen thru a slanted viewpoint...and being told with the aim to make the victors look good...much like our current mainstream media. NO?

[Radical Activist]

15. It begins the process of disorientation

It makes people realize that sometimes the heroes they were taught to honor were really very bad men. Columbus is easier than a more recent target because people aren't emotionally or politically attached to Columbus. It lays the groundwork for questioning all the other false assumptions people have about the past and about current institutions.

And doesn't every high school and college US history class begin with Columbus? That's the first thing I always had to studay.

[Squatch]

16. Follow up question...

After watching the interview with Zinn last night, it's very apparent that he despises *. Noble as that may be, do you think that his works are written with an anti-government/Bush/etc agenda in mind? And, if so, can they be considered "history"?

Any-who...more of a rhetorical question, I s'pose.

[Bridget Burke]

17. No history is "pure"....

Unless you go back to the original documents. Even there, the writers had agendas.

Zinn is pretty honest about where he stands. Others are not--especially the ones who write textbooks.

[Squatch]

18. Oh, I agree...

history is written from a person's viewpoint, and no 2 viewpoints are ever the same.

[Options Remain]

19. zinn has been writing for DECADES

Bush has nothing to do with what Zinn advocates.

TearForger

[Squatch]

20. You missed the point.

[Old Mouse]

21. Anyone who does serious reading of contemporary issues

Despises Bush or profits from Bush. I doubt there's middle ground. It has no effect on this man's job performance until the Bush administration is in fact, history.

[Squatch]

22. But, what will persist is government, which Zinn seems to despise

I don't know the answer to this question. I need to read this book, which I will...

[ElectroPrincess]

26. Do it (Read Zinn's Peoples' History of the USA) in small doses

it's both enlightening and overwhelming. Next year when my child enters Junior High I plan to offer her the alternative (Peoples') view of History.

The MAINSTREAM History books are written by the Rulers (Victors).

Every day the Republican Noise Machine is dismantling the past with their right wing revisions.

I like Howard Zinn. He's a compassionate human being ... we're blessed to have him.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. All written histories are subjective.

Whether the historian wants to support a particular position, or make a particular subject look good, or (like Zinn) to refute previous written histories, there is always a subjective slant.

I think the best histories show their point of view. All the way back to Thucidides.

[FormerDittoHead]

33. Yes. That's why colleges classify them as "philosophy" courses.

[Swamp Rat]

36. Red herring

"Yes. That's why colleges classify them as "philosophy" courses." - This statement diverts the reader from the fact that Thucidides was also a historian and is taught in history classes.

[roguevalley]

23. THe Indians of the islands he landed in went extinct right away.

He was cruel to them and they died. Hows that for starters?

[Bridget Burke]

24. He did mention De Las Casas

The writing of Bartolome De Las Casas is featured in his new book, Voices of A People's History of the United States. De las Casas was the Spanish cleric (later Bishop) who angrily publicized Spanish mistreatment of the natives.

Yes, evil was done by the Spaniards; others tried to stop it. Nuno de Guzman was sent back to Spain in disgrace for enslaving the Indians--the other Conquistadors thought he went too far, and one would not consider them overly PC.

Not to excuse the Spaniards, but which colonies were more efficiently "cleansed" of the natives? No matter now. The balance is being redressed as survivors of La Conquista move north to repopulate the continent.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/philosophers/las_casas.html

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScrewyRabbit]

28. Columbus set the tone for genocide in the new world

Doesn't mean he gets the blame for the many, many atrocities committed, but he certainly got the ball rolling.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

35. Millions also died from disease

And no one even knew the germ theory of disease, so they can hardly be blamed for that.

Now, had the Aztecs invaded Europe instead of the other way around, what do you think would have happened?

History is bloody on every side. It's the nature of mankind.

The winners are generally the ones who write about it.