An open post to Ted Rall fans

[FredScuttle]

I'm speaking to those who took such pleasure in insulting our troops and pissing on the graves of soldiers like Pat Tillman....I'd like to direct you to this post from Kos and reflect:

Yesterday I posted a story on the warm greeting John Kerry received from our troops in Baghdad. In the thread a discussion arose regarding the good news and bad news in Iraq, the attitudes of our soldiers about Iraq, the Media and the Debacle. It was an interesting discussion and I'd like to renew it here.
First, let me be clear, if there is any doubt, I detest the Iraq Debacle, a historic strategic blunder that has seriously undermined the national security of our country. Of all the terrible things Bush has done, this is the worst for me. The harm caused is immense and will be felt for decades. Why I feel that way can be found in my writings.

Second, I strongly support our troops in Iraq. I appreciate their sacrifice (as to whether it is a sacrifice, it surely is, as I explain in this thread).

Third, as to what their views on the Iraq Debacle are, I am sure they are varied. Some believed it the right thing to do and still do. Some thought it was the right thing to do and now think it wasn't. Many, I imagine, simply want to come home in one piece. In any event, I support them all, whatever their views, and whether they voted for Bush or Kerry. I know many here are pacifists, in good conscience, and I respect their views. I don't share that view, but I'm not sure that it is material to understanding and appreciating the sacrifice and hardship soldiers and their families make and suffer.

Fourth, while their views on the Debacle are of interest and illuminating, ultimately, even someone blogging from far away, as we are, may have, in fact are likely to have, a better perspective of what is going right and what is going wrong in Iraq. In a word, they are too close to it, doing their jobs and facing incredible dangers on a daily basis. Can they truly remove themselves from their day to day concerns and take a broader view? It seems difficult to me. So, unlike some, I don't take their words on Iraq as gospel, whether they are for our Iraq occupation or against it.

It is my view that those of us who vehemently opposed this war can and should still support the soldiers and their families. Their sacrifice is no less a sacrifice because the action they are engaged in is a tragically wrong headed blunder. That's on BushCo, not our soldiers.

www.dailykos.com

[FlemingsGhost]

1. Yawn ... Let it go, Fred

Given the subject matter and the late hour, I take solace knowing that this thread will sink like a stone.

[FredScuttle]

7. Good

Perhaps it will. You, however, felt motivated enough to post, so what does that say?

[FlemingsGhost]

8. I'm not beyond slummin'? (Slow morning, you know.)

:shrug:

Your thread is flamebait.

With any luck, it will actually get locked before it disappears to the archive.

And good riddance to it.

[FredScuttle]

10. Care to expand on your objection?

n/t

[rooboy]

2. If you want people to read your post..

I would remove the first sentence which is clearly insulting and confrontational to those who you're trying to convince. It's not productive and I frankly didn't read further.

[FredScuttle]

4. That was the intent

DU'ers who had no problem calling Pat Tillman a racist murderer and, by extension, all the troops on the ground as Nazi enablers are the audience for that first sentence. If you don't want to read beyond the first sentence, then you're much less patient than those of us who had to wade through post after post last year cheering Ted
Rall for calling our soldiers dopes and murderers.

I'm not a rah-rah military guy by any means, but I was absolutely disgusted by what I saw on this board last year. Perhaps I'm not interested in constructive dialogue...I thought it was a pertinent article and I felt motivated to post it here.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. So you openly admit the intent was to insult and confront?

Reflect on your motivation, Fred.
I think it is a clear violation of the stated rules.

[FredScuttle]

9. Interpret the intent anyway you like

I'm not insulting or confronting anyone anymore than someone who would post, in this forum, that anyone serving in the US military (including family members of DU'ers) is comparable to the SS stormtroopers under Nazi orders.

Report me if you'd like....for someone who was rooting for a quick death to this thread, you're the one propping it up.

[jellybelly]

11. Those members are part of a tiny minority

I agree with you completely but I highly doubt that there is a substantial number of DU members that view our soldiers that way.

[FredScuttle]

13. Understood

I'm not directing this at the general community....just those who last year felt so comfortable in spewing such venom at our troops and rationalizing it by comparing them to Nazis.

[jellybelly]

17. Then those members should answer you.

Why are others (who don't consider US soldiers nazis) taking your thread so personally?

[FredScuttle]

18. Go figure

It's flamebait now to criticize Ted Rall

:shrug:

[jellybelly]

20. I don't know why...it's strange

Comparing our soldiers to Nazis is flamebait. Not criticizing Ted Rall:wtf:

[JohnKleeb]

21. Did he really do that?

God that makes me queezy, I know quite a few people serving, my best friend is going to start his Marine basic in June.

[jellybelly]

23. well, some members have stated that notion...

shocking, yes? It makes my blood boil...

[FlemingsGhost]

25. Link.

Thanks.

[jellybelly]

27. You won't need a link....

just wait a few hours when GD gets crowded...:eyes:

[FlemingsGhost]

28. That's clever and all, but I see no link.

Thanks.

[jellybelly]

29. thanks, I am clever

and you don't need a link. Wait...the responses to this thread will be proof enough. If not, I'll take my comment back and apologize. Okay?:)


And why don't you ask Fred for a link? I venture into GD once in awhile. When I come across sometime insulting, I leave:shrug:

[FlemingsGhost]

30. A charge has been levied. Prove it, or move on.

Not a notion, not an interpretation. Proof of what has been layed before us, right now.

Do your homework. Provide a link.

(edited for poor manners in headline. Sorry.)

[FredScuttle]

31. Here's one, for starters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2802707

Now, in your parlance, address or "move on"

Why the strenuous objection to this thread?

[jellybelly]

33. thanks fred...

:pals:

[FlemingsGhost]

36. Objections ar as follows:

1) As a DUer: Opening paragraph.

2) As an artist: your eggshell-thin sensibilities.

One year later, and you are dredging this shit up? Why? You saw how it was recieved the first time. And yet ...

[FredScuttle]

42. Okay

1) You reported me for my dastardly 1st paragraph....like I said, congrats.

2) "eggshell-thin sensibilities"? Er, what?

I'm dredging this shit up because I saw a very pertinent post on Kos and posted it here as a belated follow up to all those who were so emboldened to talk shit about men and women in situations we wouldn't wish on our worst enemy.

[FlemingsGhost]

46. Talk shit vs. opinion

I guess it's up to you to decide which is which? If it offends you it is the former.

"Eggshell-thin sensibilities."

[jellybelly]

32. Excuse me?

Did I post this thread? Was I the first to accuse other members of believing this? Attacking members you perceive as weak is not necessary. I'm sure more knowledgeable members could recount countless tales of some members who may have been a little insensitive to the plight of our soldiers.

[T Town Jake]

35. I guess you're a free-lance...

...Admin now, barking out orders and all, eh? /sarcasm

[FlemingsGhost]

38. Which is worse:

my freelance moderating, or schoolmarm preaching, a year late?

[T Town Jake]

44. Oh, I quite agree it's an old topic...

...that's been hashed and rehashed through many a flaming thread to no good resolution. I wouldn't have posted it. But my point is that the poster is well within his rights to do so, unless a real mod or admin decides otherwise. Disagree all you wish - or use the alert button. But this barking out orders business is horseshit, and I'm gonna call it every time I see it precisely what it is.

[FlemingsGhost]

49. Fair enough (n/t)

FG

[JohnKleeb]

26. yes it is

God they're only a few years older than me often times.

[JohnKleeb]

22. la dupe

[FlemingsGhost]

12. Done.

No need to interpret anything. Your words are my case.

[FredScuttle]

16. Congrats

you must be awfully proud. Now, were you going to share your objections to this thread?

[bluestateguy]

3. I keep my distance from Ted Rall

His recent column comparing the negative charateristics of Bush to those of FDR in WWII was a bit much for me.

[jellybelly]

5. well said...there are members who agree with you.

[Tacos al Carbon]

14. Ted Rall?

My God, what a horrid, self-serving waste of space he is. Luckily, he's being dropped left and right. No Washington Post, no New York Times ... good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Pushed To The Left]

15. I'd bet that most DUers

respect the troops and want them to be safe. Anybody who wishes harm on the men and women in the armed forces is no better than the right-wing wackos who are happy that the tsunami killed people.

[Ronbrynaert]

19. Hmmm

First off, I'm a tremendous fan of Ted Rall's work...even though sometimes he pushes the edge a little bit...and even offends me...the tillman strip was a bit too much...along with the strip that showed Condi Rice wearing a shirt with a slogan that I won't repeat...and I wasn't crazy about his attack in the Village Voice on Art Spiegelman. But Ted Rall isn't a politician...and he isn't a journalist (although he does have a syndicated editorial column that doesn't make him a journalist)...he's an artist...an artist that employs parody and satire in his work...

Secondly, I'm against this war...and I'm against all the crimes that our troops are committing...just being there is a crime...but, yes, I do support them...I want them all to come home...troops like the Abu Ghraib wackadoos and the soldier who shot the unarmed, wounded Iraqi insurgent in the mosque should be punished, for sure...but even those villians are our brothers and sisters too...and you'd have to be a fool not to realize that environment can warp even the best of men and women...it's the warmongers that deserve our venom not the kids that do their dirty work.

Thirdly, personally, I'm not crazy about the upside down flag that you use as your avatar...but I'm not about to start a post about it in order to flame you. Although I'm as lefty as they come, and I'm a person who hates ideological symboltry, I've always had a soft spot for the American flag, no matter the number of terrible things this country has perpetrated in this world especially against its prior inhabitants. This is America, and we all have the right to say what we want to say, and think what we want to think, and, in the same way, I don't hate on any fellow anti-war citizens who are sick to death of hearing the slogan "support our troops" when they're the ones that support them the most because they're against all wars. I might disagree with their misdirected passions...but I completely understand where it's coming from.

Finally, another example pulled from a website which has lately been slamming many of it's own readers. Hopefully, more of its readers will leave and come here, where they belong, among liberals...not MODERATES!!!!!!!!

[FredScuttle]

24. A few points in response

Thanks for your measured reply...

1) I think all artists should challenge their audiences. What I take offense to what Rall did was to act like your garden-variety republican and smear a man who couldn't defend himself because he was fucking dead. That's beyond low.

2) The upside-down flag I use as my avatar (as do many others here) is not an insult to the flag...it is, in actuality, a distress signal. That's how we feel and that's been our avatar since 11/2

[AZCat]

34. People become immune to criticism when they die?

That seems a bit restrictive.


Note: By criticism, I mean both well-intentioned and mean-spirited criticism.

[FredScuttle]

39. OK, let's make a deal

After you die, I'll stand over your grave with a bullhorn and announce that you're a racist ignoramus, even though I never met you in my life and have no clue what kind of person you were. Sort of like Ted Rall, who just assumed Pat Tillman was some Neanderthal jock, instead of taking the time to research what kind of man he was:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL


Mean-spirited? Perhaps, but within bounds according to your rules, although your family might beg to differ

[AZCat]

41. As long as your bullhorn use is within local noise ordinance limits

I think my family would recognise your right to express your opinion. You might piss off the people visiting nearby graves, but that's a different problem.

And I didn't write any rules - I just commented that yours seemed restrictive. Can we no longer discuss Hitler, Reagan, or Stalin because they are dead and no longer able to defend themselves?

[jellybelly]

43. you're right in a way...

Except Hitler and Stalin aren't human:shrug:

[AZCat]

45. I have serious questions about Ronnie's humanity also...

After all, he did seem to communicate rather well with Bobo!




On Edit: Phrasing change

[JohnKleeb]

47. I thought it was Bonzo

or am I thinking of another crappy B movie.

[AZCat]

52. Oh heck I don't know Kleeb

You're probably right - I'm not up on Ronnie's silver screen work.

Bobo - Bonzo - Bush - What's the difference? :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

53. You know who Bush and Cheney remind me of

Pinky and the Brain :).

[AZCat]

57. Very true.

A little too close of a match for my comfort, though. I'd rather the real-life version wasn't so bent on ruling the world.

[jellybelly]

58. They always fail though...

:bounce:

[JohnKleeb]

60. well some day Bush-Cheney will fail

[AZCat]

65. That makes me wanna break out in song

Someday Bush-Cheney will fail
They're evil plans all to no avail
And how thrilling that moment will be
When Bush-Cheney ceases to be
They'll whisper We did it all for you
And steal a million or two
Though it's far away I'll see them pay
Someday when my dreams come true
...



(lyrics shamefully pirated from "Someday My Prince Will Come")

[jellybelly]

48. LOL!

I get it...People lose their humanity when they murder. Reagan didn't seem to be as evil as Hitler was...

[AZCat]

54. Stalin always gets my vote for most evil of 20th century

But there seems to be a lot of competition.


And I think you might be on to something regarding losing humanity and murder - I will have to mull this over.

[jellybelly]

55. Nothing to mull over...

I am right damnit!:P

[AZCat]

68. My little pea-sized brain takes a while

Even with such an apparent truth... :P

[JohnKleeb]

56. Willoken to ze aunnal evil avards

here in lovely Berlin :D. Actually it would be appropriate to have them in hell.

[AZCat]

59. With the Satan from South Park as M.C.

That's the one I always picture when I think of hell.

[JohnKleeb]

62. I for a time pictured Saddam like he is on south park

Fucking Satan.

[Ronbrynaert]

37. Yes

I know about why the flag is hanging upside down...and a part of me even agrees with the sentiment...but, that said, it still bugs me a bit.

I think you should understand that the cartoon about Tillman was more about the Media's inflated coverage of the ex-football player than Tillman the person. Especially the way they kept talking about him...but ignored the other troops that died that day and before and after it. And the way they swallowed Centcom's fictional account of what happened...which later turned out to be an utter lie.

I don't agree with the perception that Tillman enlisted because he wanted to defend this country...I think he did it more for the sake of adventure. But...despite that...and despite my pacifism...any person that enlists, especially now, is a hero and a patriot and deserves respect...they're fighting for us even though us don't want them there and us don't have any reason to be there. The whole situation is so sad. The neocons are pure evil.

And as far as not attacking someone after they're dead...does that mean we can't say bad things about Hitler, either? Please don't misinterpret that...I don't have anything nice to say about der fuhrer...nor am I comparing Tillman, in any way, to him. But I said and wrote mean things about Reagan after he kicked the bucket and I still hate the son-of-a-

[jellybelly]

40. oh boy...

you are all over the place...I don't even know how to respond. I'm dumbfounded...

[FredScuttle]

61. The cartoon would have been very effective

if Rall had centered it around Joe Blow, U.S. Reservist or enlistee. But to portray Tillman as some lunkheaded racist ("When do I get to kill Arabs?") was beneath contempt.

As to your last point...remind me again what Pat Tillman's Final Solution was for the Jews?

[jellybelly]

63. Trying to respond to that post is useless

:crazy:
He backtracked on everything...

[Wonk]

64. He could handle a pigskin, therefore he's above reproach, I get it now!

Thanks :eyes:

Oh, wait, he was a linebacker, he didn't even have to have good hands... so much for that thought.....

[jellybelly]

66. just a question...

what would be the reason for diminishing Tillman's service?:shrug: It's not necessary, maybe I'm wrong...

[Wonk]

67. Point out where I did that please. nt

[jellybelly]

70. okay...

"therefore he's above reproach"

what do you mean by that exactly? Should Tillman be criticized? And if the answer is yes, what should he be criticized for?

[Wonk]

71. Hmmm......

That's the toon that has all your knickers in a knot, right?

[jellybelly]

72. I thought Tillman was in Nazi garb....

so why should Tillman be criticized? You *ahem* 'forgot' to answer...

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jellybelly]

74. you didn't answer...

do you need help figuring something out?...(I love the MORAN pic, isn't it the funniest thing ever)

[Wonk]

75. Sure I did. You just didn't get it. Kinda like the Ted Rall cartoons. nt

[jellybelly]

76. Then explain it....I'm a 'moran' remember?

I'm not teasing you, I'm honestly asking for your opinion.:)

[FlemingsGhost]

77. LOL ... Well played, Wonk.

Rall's satire in that strip is even more biting, a year later, post-"Fahrenheit 911."

[jellybelly]

78. The cartoon doesn't bother me...

It's just a cartoon...what bothers me is that there are people who believe Tillman should be criticized for....what?....honestly, what for?

[FlemingsGhost]

81. I don't know... I'm not one of them.

I am simply a fan of Ted Rall's work, and happen to agree with the sentiments expressed in the cartoon.

Frankly, Pat Tillman made a life decision that I find quite puzzling, but I am certainly in no position to criticize. In fact, the point is essentially moot. Pat Tillman is dead.

[jellybelly]

84. so then we don't have any disagreements?

What was the point of this back and forth crap? It's fine to criticize the war, politicians, the media, etc. But to criticize a man who died in war is really pointless. I wished Wonk answered instead of calling me a morAn. It figures, I tried to reason with someone who has the maturity level of a child:shrug:

[FlemingsGhost]

86. For the most part, I think. I'm not so sure, though.

Look, if folks want to hero-worship, fine. However, when the U.S. government, media and clueless patridiots shove that shit down my throat, then that person becomes a public figure, or worse: a vehicle for propaganda. It is then that person is open to public scrutiny.

Yes, even after death.

[jellybelly]

87. I agree...

at least you answered. Thanks, I was going crazy:P
(We can criticize the media's worship of Tillman, not Tillman himself.)

[jellybelly]

80. "well played"....so he made a point?

:wow:
how did I miss it??? Being a morAn sure is annoying...:eyes:

[FlemingsGhost]

83. It sure is. (n/t)

FG

[jellybelly]

85. what "well played"?

but there wasn't a point...:shrug:

[jellybelly]

82. dupe

[smoot]

90. What's wrong with MODERATES?

Other than that, maybe they don't care much for Ted Rall?

[Wonk]

50. We're gonna be busy

[Wonk]

51. Time for an ATTACK ON ABSTRACTION!

[jonnyblitz]

69. ted rall RULES

:thumbsup:

[KG]

79. some folks just can't handle the truth.

yo, jonny boy! :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

88. "Support our Troops" is republicanese for "Support the war"

It's bullshit PR. The very same was done during the Vietnam slaughter.

I don't support the troops or what they are doing in Iraq.

[bleedingheart]

89. Our soldiers fight for Ted Rall's right to disagree

remember this is a free country with a free press....luckily we have a few people like Rall who actually exercise the right to have a difference of opinion.