Charter students score well on tests

[Nile]

Charter students score well on tests

But foes cite ESL, special-ed ratios
By Maria Sacchetti, Globe Staff | January 9, 2005

Students in charter schools in the state's largest and most troubled school systems score higher than students in regular public schools on the vast majority of standardized math and English tests, a Globe review has found.

In Boston, for example, 56 percent of the charter school students scored proficient or advanced last year on the 10th-grade English test, compared with 38 percent of students in the regular public schools.

Looking at tests across all grades in eight cities last year, charter school students finished ahead of regular school students by an average of 12 percentage points.

In the last five years, charter schools have stayed ahead of noncharter schools on most MCAS exams in those cities, which are at the center of the state's debate about whether to let more children attend the independent, publicly funded schools.

In Boston, which has more than 4,500 charter students, the largest amount in any city or town in the state, charter school students outdid public school students on every Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System test but fourth-grade math. In Fall River, 62 percent of charter school seventh graders reached the advanced or proficient score in English, compared with 42 percent in regular schools. And in Lawrence, about a third of charter-school eighth-graders hit advanced or proficient marks in math, compared with 10 percent of the regular schools.

(more)
http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/mcas/articles/2005/01/09/charter_students_score_well_on_tests/

[KitchenWitch]

1. That is not a surprise

Since students in charter schools often get more individual attention from faculty than at mainstream public schools.

[Nile]

4. That sounds like a plus for charter schools. n/t

[AP]

47. this is the standard they're asking to be measured by, so they'll meet...

...it until they're entrenched. Once they're entrenched, they might lose the inecentive to do well by this measure.

[Ruffhowse]

43. Kids in charter schools also are much more likely to come from a family

background that emphasizes school and studying. Public schools have their average test scores weighted down by having to also test all the kids who come from troubled socio-economic backgrounds and who are far behind in their skills. These test scores are comparing apples to oranges. Charter schools, home schooling, and private schools will always have the advantage in standardized test scores because they get a much more positive demographic in terms of students. Kids that attend these schools are much more likely to be invested in achievement in school. Public schools are tasked with teaching even the least interested students, if they show up at all. What's surprising is that many times, public schools, even in the inner city areas, test out as well or higher than alternative schools. That is a real achievement under extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

[northzax]

144. you are correct that it is not a suprise at all

but not for the reason you think. I point you to the first sentance of the article: Students in charter schools in the state's largest and most troubled school systems score higher than students in regular public schools on the vast majority of standardized math and English tests, a Globe review has found.

charter schools and struggling public schools often etach directly to the test. there is something to be said for teaching kids how to take tests, there's a reason even the 'best educated' people take Kaplan courses to prepare for the SAT or GRE. Test taking is a skill, like anything else, and massive preparation for the test can spike scores.

for the last time, test scores have nothing to do with education what so ever. all they test is the ability to take a multiple choice test. that's all.

[cornermouse]

2. Special ed classes are a valid reason.

Special ed students try so hard, but they're put in special ed for a reason.

Perhaps they should do a study that excluded special ed students. It would probably be a fairer and more accurate comparison... Unless, of course, fairness and accuracy are not what is wanted by the people pushing for the study.

[Nile]

3. There are no special ed classes in my area.

There are plenty of students who should be in special ed classes but they have been all main-streamed. Maybe main-streaming is not such a good idea. It tends to slow down all students.

[elehhhhna]

5. Say that again! My Honor roll 11 year old has a girl in class who

is a sweeet, kind, VERY intelligent child who unfortunately suffered a severe head injury a few years ago. She has some savant-type qualities in certain areas but cannot keep still for a minute and has virtually no impulse-control. Don't get me wrong--I like this child --she has a tremendous sense of humor and is warm and very bright & sweet...not a threat or dangerous etc. But the disruption EVERY 5 minutes drives the teacher and the students crazy. Nobody in the classroom can concentrate when this poor kid's around. She out-classes for a few hours a day but really needs a full-time minder OR a much smaller (than 22 students) class. Nobody benefits from this situation.

[Nile]

6. They should go back to having separate special ed classes.

Let us face it, main-streaming was/is a bad idea.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nile]

38. Thank you for your well thought out response.

Obviously common sense is lacking here.

[Jesus H. Christ]

40. Indeed it is.

You're attitude towards people with special disabilities is about as well thought out as a screen door on a submarine.

There's nothing common sense about bigotry.

[Nile]

41. Do you think that one should hold back many others?

Why should the rest of the class suffer because of one disrupting child? That is not common sense, it is just plain wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. The rest of the class is not suffering

They are learning valuable lessons about the diverse nature of humanity. What is just plain wrong here is your lack of tolerance.

[Nile]

71. The rest of the class is suffering from loss of valuable learning time.

They do not need to spend 12 years learning the diverse nature of humanity and only half of the other things that they should learn.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. When did you get your degree in education?

How many years have you spent teaching?

I have been in a classroom for 25 years - both regular ed and special ed. I can't even begin to tell you how horribly mistaken you are.

[alcuno]

84. Respectfully, I have to agree with Nile.

I got my Master's 8 years ago and have been teaching for 14 years. Here's my most extreme example: we have a child with Down's Syndrome who the parents have refused to have placed in a program at one of our other schools. Instead they want him mainstreamed. He has his own aide to travel with him all day and a special ed teacher co-teaching with all of his regular ed teachers.

The child can do nothing on his own. The parents do all the homework and the teachers are required to meet with them every week. I'm sorry, it's a disruption across the board (not to mention that his test scores are in with everybody else's for NCLB.)

Some of our students have been in classes with him and his personal aide for three years. Our district won't fight it because of the legal hassle. I've never had him in class, but last year (I'm grade level "leader"), I was pulled out of my classroom for two days to meet with the parents to draw up his IEP for the next school year. 130 other students got to have a sub for two days.

An extreme example to make a point.

[MichiganVote]

90. Yours is a case of a gutless District, not mainstreaming

For the vast majority of students inclusion works very well. One bad apple a case does not make.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. "Educating Peter"

needs to be mandatory viewing for any teacher who will be working with a kid who has mental disabilities.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

112. I worked at a school were there were tons of

what they call ESE students (learning disabilities). The overwhelming majority were mainstreamed. Mind you, this was a regular public high school still with students that were also of average and above average abilities too. My observations were that mainstreaming these kids absolutely lowered the standards for everyone else. You can't treat them differently because then the other kids will know, yet you have to "accommodate" them still. It's not just one or two that needs accommodations either, it's like half of the class. Essentially that boils down to everyone gets extra time on a test or everyone gets take home tests. Worst of all, most of the mainstreamed kids had major behavioral problems. So they brought down the standard in terms of acceptable classroom behavior too. The average and above average kids now act just like the ESE kids. It's positively awful. The teachers they are giving these learning disabled and emotionally handicapped students to didn't go to school to learn how to handle them, and they aren't qualified to do it. Most classes at this school were overcrowded too.

Oh, also there were lots of ESOL students (English as a second language) who were mainstreamed as well. Most of them didn't know a lick of English. I had students that only spoke French or Spanish or Vietnamese. The school somehow expected the other students who knew both languages to help them, but this didn't happen. Sometimes no one else in the class knew the other language. Sometimes there was a kid that knew both languages, but the interpreting student was no help at all because they didn't understand the subject matter of the class well enough to help. I requested an interpreter several times for some of my students. I only had one show up at total of maybe three times at the most.

That school was a mad house. I quit working there.

[MichiganVote]

125. Why put the problems of education or of a District on the backs

of one particular identified group? What you describe is a District out of control. How many are there like that? Many. Why? Because neither parents or parents as taxpayers value education enough to support it and enough programming personnel to make things work. Regualr ed. or Special ed. teachers experienc the same thing daily.

Again, that is not a problem w/mainstreaming. What you describe probably has its roots in not enough money. The more kids id'd SPED, the more money comes out of a school budget's general fund to meet the needs. Why? Because the Federal budge won't pony up the moeny they have been mandated to send to schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. Your story makes no sense

Why would you write an IEP for a student you don't teach? First you say he has a special ed teacher then you claim that YOU were pulled out of class to 'draw up' (I have also never heard of that term) his IEP. Why didn't his special ed teacher do this? Or one of his regular ed teachers? Why are you involved when you admit you don't teach him? In my state, the only time an IEP is written by someone who doesn't actually work with ths child is when he/she is initially placed.

And special ed kids' test scores are not in with everybody else's for NCLB. They are a SUBGROUP. And if a subgroup doesn't meet AYP, the school loses Title I funding.

I have also never heard of spending two days on an IEP. That's when you lost me.

It is the unaccepting attitude of teachers such as you that predetermines the failure of kids with disabilities. That is what is incredibly unfair.

[phylny]

102. You've never heard of spending two days on an IEP?

Oh, my.

I was involved in a 56 page IEP that took approximately three months of meetings and hundreds of teachers' hours to write and implement. Three years in a row, same thing. No joke.

Having said that, it's too difficult to paint every child in special education with the same brush. Many children belong in a general-ed classroom all the time, some belong in a general-ed classroom some of the time, and some belong there none of the time.

I've seen inclusion and mainstreaming work wonders, and I've also seen a classroom of kid suffer because of one child.

Many times, the parent has a position that they simply will not budge from, and an adversarial relationship develops between parent and teacher or parent and district. When that happens, it's very, very difficult to get administration to take a stance and stick to it. Often, it's "easier" for them to constantly bend and bend and bend to what the parents want, and in the end they avoid litigation and the teachers, staff and students deal with the consequences.

[PA Democrat]

104. If you want to have an honest discussion about the reason

that adversarial relationships develop, you have to look at special education funding. Last time I checked IDEA was pretty much an unfunded mandate, with less than 17% of the cost of special education being provided by the federal government.

As the parent of a child with special needs, it really saddens me to read remarks of so many here who are so quick to attribute problems with mainstreaming to "selfish" (yes that word was used) and blindly stubborn parents.

Parents want the best for their kids with special needs because there is so much at stake, and school districts are struggling to do more with less. Teachers get frustrated because they are handed kids to teach without the training and supports that they need, and parents are frustrated because they are in a race against the clock to ensure that their child becomes as self-sufficient as possible. When educators and parents start blaming each, instead of working as a team to solve problems, everyone loses.

In my experience, I see many, many more students with special needs egregiously UNDER-served, than the opposite case. But everyone seems to want to share the rare "blame the parent" stories rather than address the real issues.

[phylny]

114. I'm so dismayed that you chose to respond to my post and use the word

"selfish" because I never once used that word, nor did I imply that parents are selfish. Perhaps you've not read other posts I've made in support of the children I work with. Parents have the right, duty, and responsibility to advocate for their child. That's my take.

I was initially responding to the person who stated disbelief that an IEP can take two days to create, because my experience was vastly different, and I gave an example.

Regarding the disruption issue, if a child is disruptive to the point that a behavior plan is not helping, and a parent insists otherwise, if a child would be served better and MAKE MORE PROGRESS in a different setting, or with a different mix of services, and the parent insists otherwise, then an aversarial relationship most likely develops.

Does it happen that the district, a teacher, or provider is also unbending, unwilling, and does not properly serve a child? Of course it does. I never said it didn't. Should there be more funding? Of course. Are there cases where a parent wants the "Cadillac" of services and the district is offering "just a car"? Sure. That's a funding problem, to be certain. Should parents advocate for their children? Of course.

Are there cases where as a professional I've made a recommendation and parents have refused? Yup. For instance, I made a recommendation to one parent that out of the 150 minutes per week that their child had speech, one of the 30 minute sessions should be with a small group so there was a better chance for socialization. Parents absolutely refused, wanting "the best" for their child - and they insisted that "the best" meant one-on-one services. I recommended a group for one session for three years straight, knowing professionally that it would benefit the child greatly, and for three years they said no. Guess what? The child won't respond to peers when they talk or ask questions. Am I shocked? Nope.

In my experience, I've almost always had a great relationships with both parents and children. I was, again, saying that there are some cases, in my experience rare cases, where mainstreaming or including a child is not in that child's best interests, and the disruption is not fair to the other students, and there are some cases where the parent insists that the child remain in the classroom where it simply isn't appropriate.

[PA Democrat]

116. I am sorry if you thought that I was implying that YOU said parents were

selfish. It was another poster who used that term.

You sound like a responsible and caring teacher.

My frustration with the whole issue of inclusion, is that there is a sizable group of people who seize upon the cases where inclusion fails, to justify segregated settings as the rule.

My child was doing beautifully with partial inclusion, and last year my district made the decision to implement full inclusion for ALL special education students. I found out by doing some digging that the reason they did this was that they needed the classroom space, and figured that eliminating learning support classrooms was the quickest and cheapest way to accomplish this.

I expressed my concerns that full inclusion for my child could result in a reemergence of problem behaviors that had been virtually eliminated. My concerns were well-founded. The district had done little to nothing to train regular ed teachers and there is frustration on all sides. The district's first response when the very problems I predicted came to fruition, was to suggest sending my child out of the school district to a segregated school for students with profound disabilities. This for a child with an above average IQ, who had made remarkable progress both socially and behaviorally when she had an appropriate program.

I guess all of the sleepless nights I have had as of late worrying about my child's future makes me a little impatient with blame the parent stories.

[phylny]

119. I'm sorry to hear about your struggles.

I do understand the frustration, and I know the quality of services can range from wonderful to horrible, depending upon the state, school system, individual school, or even individual teachers.

I wish you all the best.

[MichiganVote]

127. Agree with your post. My experience too.

[MichiganVote]

126. I've done this too. Have a 10 page behavior plan on one kid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

130. No the longest IEP review I have ever been a part of

is about 2 hours.

I also believe that ALL special ed children belong in a regular ed setting at least part of the time, even the most severely disabled. The world they will be a part of as adults is not made up of only disabled people. And one of my strongest beliefs as a teacher is that we have an obligation to prep children for the highest level of independence they are capable of as adults. Isolating them and depriving them of interaction with non-disabled peers is not ever in their best interests.

I teach in a self-contained classroom. Most of my kids are mainstreamed for one hour a day. I do have parents who insist on more mainstreaming and I have parents who insist on less. But it is my job as case manager to gently guide parents toward understanding all the factors involved when determining the level of mainstreaming. I am dealing with one this year who is in denial about the severity of her child's disabilities. We had an IEP review right before Christmas. I had tested the child and was able to show the parent that he is working more than 3 years below grade level. I also had work samples and copies of textbooks used in the regular classroom she wanted him mainstreamed into. And I had work samples from children in that classroom. It was painfully obvious when comparing her son's work to the expectations of the regular classroom and the work his peers in that class were doing that it would be an exercise in futility to expect him to achieve at an acceptable level outside of his self-contained classroom.

An IEP team is also that, a team. The parent is only one member of the team. When a parent insists on modifications or mainstreaming or additional services I know are not in the best interest of their child I tell them that we must come to a consensus as a team. I have had a few parents go over my head and call and complain to the principal or to special ed administration. Then we usually have another conference and the parent is gently persuaded to act in the best interests of their child. There have been a few situations where we went ahead and mainstreamed a child because the parent insisted on it. In each of those cases, the parent realized within a few months that the child was struggling in his mainstreamed setting and agreed to cut back on the mainstreaming. When I have a parent who refuses to budge, I try to make them focus on their child's needs instead of on the parent's wants. So yes, I know it can be done. It's hard work and involves a lot of diplomacy on my part, but it can be done.

I have also found that if I do my homework and come into an IEP review with data supporting my recommendations, 99% of parents are cooperative and supportive.

[alcuno]

121. Either my story made no sense or you disagreed. Which is it?

I'm sorry you've never heard of it. I'm certain there are things of which I am unaware as well. My understanding of the reason why I was there was because of changes in who attends these meetings. I believe that the rationale behind having future teachers attend IEP reviews is so that they hear about and ask questions about future students.

I'm sorry that you are lost and I hope that you get it now. It's really not that complicated.

[PA Democrat]

122. IDEA requires the attendance of a regular education teacher

at the IEP if the child is included (fully or partially) in regular ed, or if they may be included in the future. The regular ed teacher in attendance is supposed to be the person who is responsible for implementing some part of the IEP. So it sounds like one of the teachers who had this child in their regular ed classroom should have attended rather than you.

http://www.ed.gov/policy/speced/leg/idea/brief3.html

[alcuno]

131. That's not how we do it at the end of the year.

During the school year, a regular ed teacher who currently has the child attends. At the end of the year, for the review, a regular ed teacher from the next year attends. Generally it's a teacher who will have the child.

[PA Democrat]

132. Actually, that IS how it's supposed to work

Guess I didn't explain it clearly enough.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. You said you don't teach the child

so I still don't understand why you were involved. Our IEP teams are only made up of teachers who actually work with the child. We don't pull in next year's teachers. We are actually working at minimizing the number of teachers on an IEP team. A gang conference with a parent and 6 or 7 or more teachers is very intimidating for the parent and our district is working hard to avoid that. Our team is made up of the case manager (current special ed teacher), one regular ed teacher, an administrator and any other resource teachers who work with the child, like speech/language therapist or counselor. Most of my IEP reviews are attended by the parent, the principal, a reg ed teacher and me and that's it. Also, not all attending stay for the whole meeting. And no one cancels classes to attend an IEP review. If it is a sticky situation and we feel we need all members present for the entire conference, it is scheduled for after school. But that rarely happens.

[PA Democrat]

97. Nile said "mainstreaming is a bad idea"

PERIOD. I'm sorry, but I have a REAL problem when a very small minority of extreme cases are used as justification to undermine the rights of all students with special needs.

Also, I am curious as to why the student you referenced is given homework assignments which are obviously beyond his abilities if there is a special education teacher in the classroom. Modifications of the curriculum should be part of the child's IEP, and if he is being given homework assignments that he can't do, it sounds like something fell between the cracks.

[blue neen]

86. It's a shame, Niles.

We're all having to suffer these days because of "disruptive" behaviors. It seems to be happening everywhere you turn. <sigh>

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Good point n/t

[Boosterman]

89. Nice personal attack eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Research going back 30+ years

shows special ed kids, especially mildly impaired kids, (LD) are better served in mainstreamed classes.

[LaraMN]

109. yup.

There was a case years ago (when the handicapped were "warehoused" in institutions) where an individual was wrongly thought to be mentally impaired and was institutionalized. After years of being surrounded by no one but mentally handicapped individuals, he developed the "abnormal" mannerisms, behaviors and disfunctions of his "peers." This was an individual that could have been normal- functioning had he been exposed to "normal" behavior. You don't necessarily "develop" the skills and social behaviors of a disabled child by corralling him away from other typical children. It should be individually evaluated, not categorically declared.

[blue neen]

117. It's true. They are much more likely to develop their social skills

when they are included with other children.

Thanks for your input and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Blue Wally]

105. They need two categories of Special Ed classes.

Have one for those who are slow learners, have reading problems, or non-violent psych problems.

The second would be for sociopathic pieces of crap.

The problem with the current practice of Special Ed is that the second category ruins its effectiveness for the first category.

[blue neen]

118. "Sociopathic pieces of crap"

You mean like President Bush?

Please google "sociopathic". The term definitely applies to Bush and many people in his administration.

However, it definitely does not apply to the autistic children I work with who try SO VERY HARD to fit in with everyone else. We truly do not understand yet all the challenges they face in their lives. We do know this, though; they definitely are very aware of what other people think of them. I admire them so much.

The term also does not apply to my mentally ill son. He is trying so desperately to be self-sufficient and to be a good man. I'm in awe of his effort.

[MichiganVote]

128. Actually in some, not all states, the law defines that maladjusted youth

should not be certified Emotionally Impaired or its equivalent b/c their actions are not the result of emotional disturbance. That does not mean that maladjusted students can be tossed out w/o cause or other things. The evaluation of a student for emotional impairment is a very involved process (or it should be) and should not result in an easy determination.

Alternative education has served the so called sociopathic youth for years.

[cornermouse]

11. See "about mainstreaming"

Like I said, my child's brothers were both considered gifted by their school district. End of the year comprehensive test scores were 90+ percentile with only the few exceptions (usually 80s).

Also if you follow your statement to its logical conclusion, anyone growing up in a large family (a nearly constant source of disruption and noise as anyone who grew up in a large household could tell you) should also do poorly in school. That's simply not accurate.

[AngryAmish]

27. Is 22 students considered a large class?

When I was in grade school we had between 31 and 35 kids per room.

Plus walked uphill both ways to school and had to mine coal during recess. I am childless and have no idea about the sizes of these things nowadays.

[Blue Wally]

106. I was in K-12 school 1944-1957

30+ kids in the class was the norm until we got into higher math and science in high school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. So I take it

teaching your daughter to be tolerant and understanding of kids with differences is not important to you?

[cornermouse]

10. About mainstreaming...

If you want disabled adults to function in a society, you mainstream them as much as possible. If you want disabled adults fit only for what amounts to permanent and continual imprisonment, you limit them to special ed classrooms where the only behavior they see and attempt to replicate, is that of other disabled students.

What I said was that their scores should be separated out to reach a more accurate and fairer comparison between public and private or charter schools...

As far as the other contention on this page that bright students are hampered by association with disabled students? If you follow that to its logical conclusion, my autistic child's brothers should not have been labeled gifted students by the school but they were.

Another possible lesson from contact with disabled is compassion. I'll leave my statement and its implications there for some to think about.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

12. It's not just about them

If children with disabilities hold back the other students because of disruptions, then they should NOT be mainstreamed.

School is about educating, not just about making things look good.

Compassion is great, but it's not what schools are in business to teach.

[cornermouse]

13. I repeat....

If children can grow up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, in the same house with disabled chidren (read autism specifically) without losing any IQ, mainstreaming them for specially chosen classes (by the teacher) is not going to contaminate or limit your child.

[Ms_Mary]

32. Actually, I think schools could do with teaching some compassion.

[MichiganVote]

129. Honey, the schools are literally raising kids today

There will always be some teachers or others who are burned out and lack the 'compassion' you speak of. Practically, the way things are going, more and more people are leaving the teaching profession b/c they are just sick of dealing with rude and unruly students.

[PA Democrat]

48. Schools have a legal obligation to include special ed students in regular

as much as possible. And if the child has behaviors that could impede the learning of others, the school has an obligation to develop a behavior plan and provide supports which could include providing the child with an aide. You'd be amazed at how successful a well-implemented behavior plan can be in reducing problem behaviors.

As far as your comment about schools not having a requirement to teach compassion, I wholeheartedly disagree. Perhaps a lack of compassion and empathy is part of the reason that our country is in the abysmal situation in which we now find it.

And mainstreaming students with disabilities is about much more than "making things look good." Children with disabilities need to learn to function as independently as possible in the real world. You cannot segregate kids with disabilities and then somehow when they graduate, expect them to magically know how to survive in the real world.

[Nile]

51. That is where the law went wrong.

The problem is commonly called unintended circumstances. The law should be changed.

[PA Democrat]

53. That is very cold-hearted

And very ignorant. I have been involved in advocacy for kids with disabilities for more than a decade and when schools do what they are supposed to do, there are MANY children who can be successfully included. My own child is a case study of how that law is successful.

I pray you are never in the situation where you have to bear such hurtful comments about your own child.

[Nile]

55. Not trying to be cold-hearted, just facing reality.

The reality is that a disruptor of any kind slow down the majority. It is against the common good of the other students.

[Johnny B. Goode]

56. You don't know what it's like

My autistic little sister has gone through so much trouble trying to adjust to public school with regular kids.

Now that she's 13, she's built long-lasting relationships with friends and loves going to school every day to see them.

She is fully included with the other kids other than having an old, unused room that she can go to if she wants to study alone.

She is well-behaved in class and doesn't disrupt or slow down lessons.

Our school district has repeatedly suggested sending her to a separate school for disabled children. I looked into this school and it was a vast majority of males and all were seriously disabled.

A regular school environment is perfectly suited to her, because she can observe the normal children and pick up good behaviors, in a separate school, she doesn't have this opportunity.

Mainstreaming is the best thing that ever happened to her.

So think about what families of disabled children go through before you open your mouth and say something like that.

I'm sorry if my little sister's wish to be with her friends and learn upsets you.

[Nile]

57. If your sister is not a disruptor then she should stay.

The ones that disrupt the class should be removed. Your sister "is well-behaved in class and doesn't disrupt or slow down lessons." Fine, I do not have a problem with that.

[Johnny B. Goode]

59. She used to have a lot of problems

and still can if teachers aren't trained or if her work isn't adapted for her like it is supposed to be. If people like you had their way, she would have been thrown out of her class. She has learned how to behave because my mom fought to have the school provide her the help she needed.

Maybe you should ask why the schools won't spend the money to help kids like my sister instead of dumping on parents and calling them "selfish".

Having a sister with autism can be hard sometimes, but I think it has made me a better person. I guess according to you, I should have demanded that my parents get rid of her, because there were times she kept me up at night or interrupted my homework.

[PA Democrat]

85. Yes, we should go back to the days

when those "disruptors" were locked away in institutions. And we need to stop giving out welfare. It is against the common good of the other citizens.

Any other progressive ideas you'd like to share?

BTW, is "disruptor" a code name for something else?

[PA Democrat]

75. Since you are so sure that the law is so bad

do you even know the name of the legislation that covers these issues, let alone any of the specifics?

[rucky]

17. I share your opinion & agree with the imprisonment analogy.

Nearly half of my students are on some form of IEP, but if you walked into the classroom you wouldn't know who the special ed students without checking test scores. Behavior is not the issue. Giving them a fair assessment is.

[Nile]

20. "If you want disabled adults to function in a society."

Adults and children are two different things. Mainstream the adults like, Oh my god, Walmart, Stop & Shop and many other businesses do. Do not mainstream them in with children that are distracted so darn easily from kindergarten on up. Let the normal children get a decent education without the extra unnecessary distractions.

[cornermouse]

42. Like mushrooms in the night...

You want disabled people to step into normal life with only limited previous exposure. Sorry, it doesn't even work that way with people who are not disabled. You get what you raise...

I repeat.

If children can grow up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, in the same house with disabled chidren (read autism specifically) and still retain a gifted IQ, mainstreaming them for specially chosen classes (by the teacher) is not going to contaminate or limit your child.

[Nile]

44. If they are disrupting the class then they should be separated.

They should be separated just like any other disruptor. If your child is a disruptor and you insist on allowing it to slow down all of the other children in the class then you are a very selfish person. You do not care if the other children get a decent uninterupted education or not.

[elehhhhna]

45. Thank You, Nile! The girl I was referring to would NEVER be

allowed to pull the things she does in class if not for her problems. As I said, she's VERY Bright--grades are not her problem--but it's hard to explain to the OTHER 21 KIDS why SO&SO is allowed to throw things at the teacher, lay on the floor, kick the teachers cast (broken ankle), etc. on a daily basis...

[PA Democrat]

49. The school has a legal obligation to work with the child

to correct the problem behaviors before the school is allowed to remove the child from regular education. It is not "selfish" for a parent to expect the school to fulfill their legal obligations.

[phylny]

103. I agree. However, in some cases, no matter what the teachers do

and even if a behavior plan is implemented perfectly, certain students simply do not respond and their difficult behavior continues. To deny that this happens would be dishonest.

I would say that 99% of the kids I worked with, whether they had Down Syndrome, autism, or severe disabilities, were able to participate in at least a portion of their day in a mainstreamed situation. Most of the time, it works great, and many times in my career, I've gone to the mat for these students, sometimes resisting administration that wanted me to "go with the flow" and get the kid out of the classroom. In one particular situation, I shut the principal up by saying, "If I am ever called to testify, I will speak the truth" about how one teacher wanted the kid out of her classroom without even trying to help him adjust first. However, with 1% of the students, no matter what we did, they were unable to participate in the general education setting.

It's simply reality for some students. This is not a black or white issue.

[PA Democrat]

107. Yes, I think we do agree

The problem is that the originator of this thread believes that "mainstreaming is a bad idea" NOT that for a few rare exceptions, mainstreaming is a bad idea.

My own child had a teacher one year who did everything in her power to have my child removed from her classroom, including intentionally setting her up for failure. Fortunately, that teacher has been the exception rather than the rule, and we have been truly blessed to work with some fabulous teachers in other grades. And this was in spite of the fact that my district's administration has an abysmal record in providing teachers with the training and supports they need to make inclusion succeed.

The problem is that there is too much painting with a broad brush because of a few exceptional cases.

[BBradley]

74. re

You're wrong. They aren't "just like any other disruptor." They have disabilities that prevent them from functioning "just like any other disruptor." Ok. Ok. Ok. On track here. What exactly do you mean by disrupting? Exactly, and with examples. That's a word that encompasses a broad variety of behaviors.

[blue neen]

81. So Niles, just exactly what is your definition of a "normal" child?

I'm interested to know.

[Nile]

99. One who does not constantly distract the rest of the class.

That would be considered normal behavior.

[blue neen]

108. I have seen gifted students distract a class.

They are children, after all. I have seen "normal" (using your definition) students distract a class. They have bad days, just like the rest of us.

Should we not mainstream any of them, either?

[Nile]

135. We all have a bad day now and then.

When almost every day is a bad day it is a problem that needs to be solved.

[PA Democrat]

136. Nile, you advocated eliminated mainstreaming altogether

Teachers here have stated that there are a small minority of children with special need for whom mainstreaming does not work. No one denied that this is not the case, yet you want to take away the rights of a whole class of people based upon a few exceptions.

You know what that is called Niles?

BIGOTRY.

[Nile]

137. If they disrupt or slow down the class.

Then get them out of the class. That is not bigotry.

[PA Democrat]

139. That is NOT what you said originally

You stated:

"They should go back to having separate special ed classes. Let us face it, main-streaming was/is a bad idea."

"Maybe main-streaming is not such a good idea. It tends to slow down all students."

You made blanket statements about ALL special ed students. Substitute the word blacks and integration for the words special ed students in this and other statements you made, and see how it sounds. It's BIGOTRY.

Now when exposed, you backtrack and basically say , oh well I only meant the "disruptive" ones. Guess what buddy, I have seen quite a few "normal" kids who were much more "disruptive" on a regular basis than my disabled child, so I resent your remarks. They're BIGOTED. Got it?

Instead of denying what you originally said, why don't you simply try apologizing to those of us who have kids with special needs who are offended by such callous remarks?

[Nile]

140. I am **leaning against wall with hands on wall spread eagled.**

You have got me because I refined my original statement. So put on the hand-cuffs and take me away. :eyes:

Now I am saying that if they slow down or disrupt the class then remove them.

[blue neen]

141. "thinking oneself faultless;

esteeming oneself as better than others; pharisaical; sanctimonious"

The above is the definition of "self-righteous" from the Webster's Dictionary.

[Nile]

142. What are you attempting to say? n/t

[PA Democrat]

146. Imagine I said this:

"Maybe integrating black students is not such a good idea. It tends to slow down all the white students.

They should go back to having segregated schools."

Let us face it, integration was/is a bad idea."

And then imagine that teachers and others spoke up and said, that the majority of black students do not disrupt the class, and that in fact there were white students who were also disruptive.

Imagine then, I say:

"Well, we should remove the black disruptive students."

Tell me, am I "refining" my statements, or have I been embarrassed into trying to cover up my bigotry?

I noticed that your emphasis is STILL only on the disabled kids who are disruptive, as if non-handicapped students never disrupt class.

Hey, but don't apologize, just roll your eyes at me because that's a REAL sign of emotional maturity.

[Nile]

147. Believe me, I can imaging you saying that.

PA Democrat: "I noticed that your emphasis is STILL only on the disabled kids who are disruptive, as if non-handicapped students never disrupt class."

We are talking about main streaming, are we not? Main streaming generally refers to mentally or physically handicapped children, does it not? Non-handicapped students that disrupt often usually get suspended from class, do they not?

[PA Democrat]

148. And if you took the time to actually READ the LAW

before you made blanket statements advocating discrimination against ALL disabled kids, you would know that the minority of disabled kids who are disruptive CAN be removed.

So if they remain in the classroom, the SCHOOL is not doing the right thing. But hey blame a whole group of children and their parents, if it suits your agenda.

Congratulations Nile, you are officially the first DU member that i have put on IGNORE.

[Nile]

150. I read the law, and like any law it should be refined somewhat.

The law makers and what they legislate are not perfect by any means. Such is the necessity for rough and tough debate. If you can not talk about your feelings about a law then you are serving no useful purpose to someday get it right. No law will ever be to the satisfaction of everyone. If you wish to ignore another point of view that is up to you. If you ignore other points of view you will be losing a major part of life. You can not stay in a fantasy world forever and come to peace of mind with yourself.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucille]

61. It's the law: Sp Ed students must be in "least restrictive environment"

The child who has low impulse control and learning disabilities should have an aide as well as a certain amount of time working one on one with a learning specialist, social worker, etc. in a resource room. The teacher should have special training and support. The class size should be limited.


"Mainstreamed" students still are classified as handicapped. However, unless the parents sue, and many times even if they sue, these kids never receive the services they are entitled to by law. And yes, the teachers and other students suffer as a result as well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. No special ed classes?

I find that hard to believe. Where are you?

In my state - MO - charters are required to admit special ed kids and to have programs for them.

IDEA is a law that applies to all 50 states. So unless you aren't in the USA, your area school districts are breaking the law.

[tsuki]

15. They take the test in Florida, but are not counted when the school's

report card is issued, or in the statistics reported to the states.

[cornermouse]

16. That's the way it should be.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Yes they are counted

They USED TO not be counted, but NCLB says they have to be counted. In fact, it is their test scores, and the scores of all other 'sub groups' that are the determining factor used to decide if the school is making AYP (adequate yearly progress).

Just a few years ago, not only did special ed scores not count, but these kids could be excused from being tested. Or they could just take part of the test. But under NCLB, ALL kids are tested - including special ed - with the exception of no more than 2% of all the kids in a district. So we can exclude the most severely handicapped kids - up to 2% of our total kids - but all the rest of the kids are tested.

Special ed kids test scores are not included in the school's total BUT if they don't make AYP, the whole school/district is penalized. In other words, if the 'regular' ed kids make AYP but any of the subgroups don't, the school/district is considered 'failing'. Schools that fail to make AYP for 2 years in a row lose federal funding (Title I $$)

Subgroups are special ed, ESL, minorities and free lunch kids.

This is just one of the yuckier parts of shrub's yucky education law. And a part that hasn't been explained well to the public.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

113. I think it depends on whether the student is getting a special

diploma or regular diploma. They don't have to pass the FCAT if they want a special diploma. They need to pass it for regular diploma. If they are an ESE student who is working toward a regular diploma, I think their scores get counted. I'm not sure about this though.

[MichiganVote]

91. IDEA does not mandate spec. ed. classes- it mandates services

Big difference between the two

[NewHampshireDem]

7. You might read this earlier study, which is the latest to replicate result

http://www.aft.org/presscenter/releases/2004/121504.htm

At best, the jury is still out. :shrug:


And this little gem of a private school ....

http://news.myway.com/odd/article/id/419985|oddlyenough|08-09-2004::08:08|reuters.html

[Karmadillo]

8. Thanks for posting. I wonder why the article didn't address

the NAEP results.

[Nile]

26. Because NAEP is just one more unnecessary government beau racy.

All they do is wet their finger and stick it in the air to see which what the popular opinion is blowing. In other words they are just trying to justify their jobs.

[Karmadillo]

9. If the caption under the photo of the girl with a book is any indication,

the Globe may not be the best source for information about education.

[onecitizen]

14. I remember reading recently........

just the opposite. That Charter school children fell below public school children. I wanted to use the version that they don't do well as a talking point. Damn! Wonder what the truth really is?

OK everybody. Tell me what you know and where you learned it please?

[rucky]

19. Stats are screwed up because...

many charter schools are failing out of mismanagement. This affects the quality of education and scores go down. Many are bringing down the numbers for regular public schools, because they are cherry-picking the best students. So in cases of successful charter schools, their scores are going up while the mainstream schools go down - thus widening the gap. That still tells us NOTHING about the quality of education between the two types of schools.

[Nile]

21. I remember reading that also.

I read it on DU.

[AirAmFan]

18. This is an "apples and onions" comparison

Of course charter school students have higher test scores. Parents have to apply to get their kids into charter school, presumably having to show their kids have done well on standardized tests. And charter schools can expel students who don't do well enough on tests after they've been admitted.

Regular public schools have to take everybody. Kids of apathertic parents have no chance of getting into a charter school, and could be rejected for low test scores even if their parents applied. Special ed kids are just the tip of the iceberg of students who are unlikely to get into or stay very long in charter schools. All the potential charter school rejects are in regular public schools.

A 12 percent differential seems very low, and evidence that charter schools are not doing any better at educating their "creamed" students than regular public schools would have. But charter parents must be quite pleased that their children do not have to associate with "them", and that they didn't even have to move to expensive suburbs to achieve racial or income segregation for their brood.

[ChairOne]

22. I've seen too many charter-schools-cook-the-books....

... to-make-it-look-like-they're-doing-better to believe such a report out of hand...

[AngryAmish]

29. Oh course a Public School would never do that....

[ChairOne]

30. Yes they would - especially in Texas lol - but so what?

What on earth does that have to do with what I said?

[AngryAmish]

33. Not much

I would suspect the book-cooking is pretty even all around.

[ChairOne]

35. lol - well if you dunno, I'll help....

The difference is that the gop/charters are trying to siphon $ away from public schools, and stick it in charters. The root motivation for the gop is, of course, the desire to return to a segregated educational system.

So charter schools cheating matters in a way that it doesn't so much in public schools because the charters are trying to market themselves to America at large, and most of them are unaware of/don't believe in the racist thing. The only thing that matters to them is the ad line "charters are better than publics". Seeing them repeatedly cooking their books tells us that this is a lie.

[knitter4democracy]

23. Not in our area

All of the charter schools in our area either scored the same or worse on the MEAP (our state test). The truth is, the tests are stupid. They really aren't worth much. When a kid can score one score and then a totally different score after a bit of coaching, what is the test worth?

I actually had a couple of students, very bright and good writers, who failed the writing test because they didn't fit the form--answered the prompt well, but it wasn't the exact way the graders wanted it. Turns out, Ohio was outsourcing to some other state the grading of the writing section, and that company hired people with little to no writing or teaching experience who then spent less than a minute on each test. It's all a bunch of crap. The reality is, we can't know how well we teach anyone until years later.

[Nile]

24. It sounds like you cheated with the tests.

The tests are meant to measure the knowledge that a student has retained over a period of time. If you coached them the same day or the day before the test, that is not long term retention of knowledge. It is nothing but, Oh yea, I remember that from yesterday.

[knitter4democracy]

54. That's what they're meant to do, but that's not what they do

They don't measure what they're supposed to. Everyone thinks they measure long-term knowledge, but they don't because you can change scores with enough prep-work.

[blue neen]

73. Are you a teacher?

Have you ever seen a copy of the tests given to meet the NCLB standards?

Children have to read a story, then write an essay answer to prompts about the story. They have a set amount of lines in which to finish their essay. If they go beyond those lines, points are deducted. If they go beyond the left or right margins, they are again penalized.

For math questions, students must be able to explain in 4 steps how they arrived at their answer. They can't just give the sum, product, etc. Four steps must be stated in sentence form to show how they arrived at that answer. This is a requirement for chldren as young as 8.

There are multiple choice questions, but the choices are purposely designed to be misleading, i. e. numbers are transposed in an answer.
This is a particular problem for children who are dyslexic.

For ALL children these tests are stressful. For a child with a disability or with a learning disorder such as dyslexia or other comprehension problems, the tests are very hard to tolerate. A 2% exemption does not even begin to cover all the students with challenges who are forced to comply with these test standards.

For the record, even if all the "disruptive" students are in one classroom in a particular school, it is still mandated that they participate in the NCLB testing. They are given NO extra help. It is an extremely difficult time for these children.

How well do you think you would do on these tests? Come to think of it, you might be okay, since compassion is not one of the variables NCLB measures.

[Nile]

101. You do not have to be a teacher to understand the problem.

If the child did not learn its first and second grade materials you can not expect the child to do well in the third grade. If you just socially pass the child from one grade to the next the child falls further behind each year. The final result called "high school graduation" will not be we need. This seems to be where many colleges come in handy. What they call a college degree is nothing more than what should have been a high school education.

[blue neen]

110. No, the problem is these tests are unfair and biased,

and they are totally inappropriate for children with learning disabilities.

BTW, I worked very hard for my college degree. In fact, my parents couldn't afford to send me to school, so I paid for all of my education myself. That degree is tremendously important to me.

[CornField]

25. This is just a bunch of BS!

Here's a piece I wrote in early September:

Changing the standards of failure

If you're the Bush Administration and facing the fact that charter schools are continuing to fail, how would you react? By changing the reporting standards, of course.

In an August article in the NY Times, it was exposed that the Department of Education is sharply cutting back on the information it collects about charter schools for the periodic report that provides a detailed national profile of public, private and charter schools.

In mid-August, the first national comparison of test scores showed students in charter schools largely trailing comparable students in traditional public schools. The federal report, known as the Schools and Staffing Survey, provides a wealth of information about charter schools, including the location and number of such schools, their share of low-income students, the qualifications of principals and teachers and the ratio of teachers to students.

In the future, however, the National Center for Education Statistics, which conducts the survey, will cover only a random sample of about 300 charter schools. The Department of Education said the decision to switch from a random sample had been made in the first year of the Bush Administration "for technical reasons."

Charters are self-governed schools that operate independent of local school boards, but with public money. They vary widely in style, focus and performance, including some that emphasize music or art, foreign languages, or rigorous academic programs.

The most recent survey, published in 2002, provides profiles of all 1,010 charter schools that federal researchers found operating for the two academic years ending in spring 2000. With it, researchers have been able to analyze types of charter schools, comparing the qualifications of teachers at urban charter schools, for example, with those at regular public schools or at other charters in the suburbs.

While charter schools currently account for a sliver of the nation's 88,000 public schools, they are likely to grow tremendously under the federal No Child Left Behind Education Act, which prescribes conversion to charters as a remedy for chronically failing traditional schools.

------

And here are the links:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0A11FF3B5B0C748DDDA10894DC404482
CHARTER SCHOOLS TRAIL IN RESULTS, U.S. DATA REVEALS -- NY Times

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/
SCHOOLS AND STAFFING SURVEY

http://nces.ed.gov/
NATIONAL CENTER FOR EDUCATION STATISTICS

[Nile]

31. "Department of Education sharply cutting back on information it collects"

This sounds like the DOE is slacking in its responsibilities.

[CornField]

34. Of course it is... that's the only way they have to manipulate the data

And they do need to manipulate the data for it to reflect well on NCLB.

BTW, the article you quoted, used information gathered from the Mass. Department of Education. That would be the information the state department was instructed to gather by the Federal Department of Education. Interesting, huh?

Also, if you look at those graphs on the side of the page: All Boston area public schools are being pitted against 3 to 9 charter schools (how many depends on the grade level). Why not place all area charter school test results against all area public school test results?

[proudbluestater]

28. What may be true in Massachusetts is not true in Michigan

The ones around my area are mostly abject failures. In addition, there are fewer regulations on them, so many are finding themselves in hot water for a variety of reasons.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. You're probably right

Mass. has the best public schools in the country, and charter schools are reflective of the importance of education here-and how it's funded.

[tx_dem41]

39. Not true in Texas, either. n/t

[LWolf]

46. Wow.

This reports the exact opposite I read last week. I'll have to go fishing for the links, and don't have time before running off to my classroom this morning.

They were posted to a professional email list. IIR, the main point of the articles, or the discussion, was that charter schools show no significant difference from regular public schools.

If I remember, I'll look for them when I get home tonight.

That said, impo, the test scores cited are corrupt to begin with, so they aren't valid indicators of success or failure for any of us.

[LWolf]

72. Here it is:

From the 2003 Rand Corporation publication: "Charter School Operations and Performance: Evidence from California"

http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1700/MR1700.ch9.pdf

STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT
One main objective of the legislation mandating charter schools is to
“improve student learning” (EC 47601). Although this objective seems straightforward, it can have two alternative interpretations:
(1) Charter schools should improve the learning of their pupils over
time and (2) charter schools should outperform conventional public
schools. If the objective is taken to mean that charter schools should
improve the learning of their pupils over time, then our conclusions
would suggest that most charter schools are meeting this objective,
because both charter and conventional public schools have experienced
growth in student performance in recent years. If the objective
is taken to mean that charter schools must outperform conventional
public schools, then the assessment leads to a different and
more complex set of conclusions. In our study, we evaluated the
performance of charter school students relative to conventional
school students because this was deemed the question of greatest interest
to policymakers. Our results suggest:

• Charter schools generally have comparable or slightly lower test
scores than conventional public schools after adjusting for the
ethnic and demographic characteristics of the students. However,
these effects vary across the different types of charter schools.
Our evaluation suggests that, controlling for student characteristics,
classroom-based conversion schools have comparable scores
in certain subjects or grade levels, in other cases higher scores, and
still in other cases lower scores. Classroom-based start-up schools
have higher test scores than conventional public schools across
grades and subjects except in elementary math, where the scores
are slightly lower. Finally, nonclassroom-based conversion and
start-up schools, relative to conventional public schools, have
lower test scores across the board.

[alcuno]

82. I am a hostage of the NCLB Act. Name the ransom and I'll PAY it!

In all of my teaching career, this is one of the most fucked up pieces of legislation I have ever seen. I never curse, but for this I'll make an exception.

The list of things wrong is too long to go in to. My current favorite came with the discovery of the following "allowable" procedures. We get to plaster our classrooms, including the desktops, with formulas, charts, and algorithms and keep them up for the tests.

I'm a math teacher and I'm basically being paid for test preparation. The top students, those with a history of "meeting standards," are essentially off the hook. They get real teaching and real course content. Everyone else who was borderline or below the standard is spending nearly two days each week practicing with open-ended questions and computer driven test prep.

A whole lot of companies are making a whole lot of money on this racket and it's just a big joke in the schools. I'm currently in the proces of taping to every desktop in my room tons of information JUST short of the actual test answers.

Teachers aren't stupid and we're more than willing to game this idiotic system. Is it cheating? No, it's perfectly allowable under the guidelines. What a sham and what a shame. And me, I'm guilt free.

[PA Democrat]

83. I hear you alcuno

The very same companies that profit because they produce the tests also profit from the curriculum they sell to the schools to teach the kids how to pass the tests.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. In my state we can't keep any charts, etc up during the test

All that stuff has to come down or be covered up.

This difference points to one of the biggest flaws in NCLB. Each state is allowed to choose its own test and make up its own rules. Then we stupidly compare and rank the scores of all 50 states. HELLO?? Have the authors of this law never taken statistics or an assessment class?

What state are you in? If you guys outrank my state in Math, it will be because you got to leave up those multiplication charts while we had to take ours down. grrr LOL :)

[alcuno]

124. I'm in Illinois. Multiplication charts? I can post actual similar

problems to the ones on the test. Anything that I "use" in my teaching can stay up. Anything.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. I met a teacher from Mississippi

at an NCTM conference this fall who teaches her kids to make 'cheat sheets'. She has to cover up charts like we do, so she shows her kids how to make their own. Their tests are not timed, so the first thing she teaches her kids to do is to get out that scratch paper and make those 'study guides' they will need for the test. No way could we do that where I work.

In my state they are so strict about this that the state actually sends monitors around during testing to make sure no one has left charts up. I teach special ed and the first accomodation I mark on every IEP is for charts and visual aids during testing. So I can leave stuff up in my room. The state monitors come in every year and sometimes start to berate me until they realize it is a special ed room. I always have IEPs handy to show them when they come.

Another district in my area got in big trouble a few years ago when they sent the test home for homework! They got caught because teachers in other districts whose own kids were enrolled in that district realized their child's homework was the state assessment and they told on the offending district (which incidentally had been recognized the year before for having some of the highest scores in the state). Since our state requires all testing materials to be kept locked up and only released to teachers for a few hours each day during the testing window, it was a big scandal when this high achieving district sent the test home to be completed. This story still makes me giggle. How stupid :)

[LWolf]

98. Here's the ransom:

Agree to do away with public ed and turn it over to corporations. Of course, you'll be hired by the corporation; don't expect better pay or benefits, and be aware that they'll be looking to replace you with cheaper labor who more compliantly follow scripts a few years down the road.

I fully concur with your statement, and I know plenty of other teachers who would join us. It is by far the most horrendous piece of legislation to hit my profession in my lifetime.

[all.of.me]

50. Woo hoo!

Our charter school here, which both my girls went to, has the highest test scores in the state, despite the fact that we got half the money of the other public schools and had less than half the resources (no science lab, no computer lab, etc). My older daughter has now gone on to the public high school (no charter high yet), and she is so advanced, she could be moved up to 11th grade. We're not doing that, so she is bored, but the up side is that she is doing extra curricular activities (training to teach sex ed to middle schoolers for pay, and more) that she'd otherwise not be able to do.

My younger daughter is in a very alternative charter school now that is affiliated with Outward Bound. She is challenged and growing, and that is filtering into her personal life.

We are starting a charter high school also affiliated with Outward Bound. My older daughter will be out of the loop for it, but the little one will be there. I am excited! I am all for charter schools!

Geneva T

[ChairOne]

52. Yay! Back to segregation! Separate but equal! Woohoo!

http://www.nea.org/nr/nr990414.html

http://www.cta.org/CaliforniaEducator/v8i2/Feature_6.htm

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/deseg/CharterSchools.php

http://www.aasa.org/publications/sa/1999_08/bernstein.htm

http://www.aclu-nj.org/legal/legaldocket/discrimination/inthematterofredbankcharte.htm

et cetera ad nauseum.....

[Bridget Burke]

58. Where do you live?

Details help give an aura of realism.

[all.of.me]

60. Taos, New Mexico

The school system here - well, education is just not a priority. There is an old Hispanic population here, very traditional, very family oriented. Having a family is more revered than having an education.

This is a fairly violent town, too, and the middle school is a very tough place. So about 8 years ago or so, the first charter school was beginning to evolve. It was going to just be a middle school to offer an alternative to what is here. It ended up being K-8, and is now in its fifth year. This is where my girls went.

Once that school got started, charter schools popped up all over the place. In a county of maybe 25,000, there are 5 charter schools. They are scattered around, with two being right in Taos. Aside from that, there are a lot of private schools, too.

Here's a story that sums up the state of public schools in Taos.

Two summers ago, I was working at the middle school getting their computers ready with a new system. The librarian told me that the teachers in the school district aren't very smart, because the children aren't very smart, that they need to be on the same level. This woman is in charge of our children!

[ChairOne]

115. dunno, mebbe it would be better....

if we paid for those willingly-stupid hispanics to get-and-see-the-value-of an education, rather than just putting all the eager-beaver-white-kids on the good side of the tracks?

dunno - just a thought....

EDIT: willingly-stupid-and-violent

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. This is exactly the opposite

of the results in my city. Charter kids are bombing on our state tests.

[madfloridian]

69. In our county, they kick kids out of charter unless they keep good grades

Maybe that would explain it. They kick them back to the public schools, whose money is going to private schools for vouchers.

:shrug:

[Nile]

70. If they kick them back to public schools.

If they kick them back to public schools voucher money goes back with them.

[PA Democrat]

76. And you don't see the problem with this?

Charter schools cherry pick the students who do well on the tests and then ship all of the kids who will need extra help (and are thus more expensive than the "average" student to educate) back to the public schools, and you can't see the problem?

[madfloridian]

87. Not vouchers in charter school.

In Florida public school money goes to private Christian schools for special education.

It has been declared unconstitutional, but they do it anyway.

You did not get my point. If you have hand selected students who get kicked out if they don't perform....you have good test scores. Think about it.

[TrogL]

77. Of course they do - they teach to the test

The #1 goal of a charter school is to stay in business. To stay in business their students have to do well on the standardized tests. Teachers teach the material on the test, ignoring the rest of the subject matter.

[LeftyMom]

78. Public schools don't do that? nt

nt

[madfloridian]

88. Charter schools have only selected students who do well.

The others have to stay in what is left of the public school system.

Of course they score well.

[poe]

93. deschooling society

what are the students who are "doing well" doing well at? i was exceptional at taking tests but you wouldn't want to eat at the wobbly table i made in shop. i'd rather have a fine table than know about the battle of hastings. the american system of schooling is no more than training, stratifying and teaching obedience for the business mills. the early formers of the american education system spoke openly about the need for cogs in the industrial machine. john taylor gatto has written much about our schooling system.
in my view the whole thing, the very concept of what we call education is a disaster. we cannot expect to reform the beast. create new modes

[Nile]

100. "training, stratifying and teaching obedience for the business mills"

Most of us get an education that makes us useful in the business mill somewhere. Is not that what we get an education for? Most of us do not get an education just for the heck of it.

[poe]

111. the disciplined mind and modified behaviour as normalcy

the western habit of mind is a tragedy. we do not need to be regimented nor socially engineered. highly recommend reading ivan illich's "deschooling society" or anything by john taylor gatto. can we not imagine a world where our intrinsic natures are revered and respected. another way of looking at it is -is it working? it ain't. it is not simply a matter of leaky roofs and classrooms that are too large.

[LeftyMom]

120. I agree

which is why we unschool. :)

[LWolf]

80. See post #s 46 & 72. n/t

[Ian David]

123. I've heard of studies that found exactly the opposite

I can see if I can find the info somewhere.

[Bridget Burke]

138. That's why this one was newsworthy...

Most reports on Charter schools aren't nearly as inspiring...

[Cocoa]

143. this article should mention those studies

you might be thinking of a report that the NEA came up with, where they had to dig up data that had been quietly placed on the Education Dept's website, which would normally have been announced publicly, but which the Bush administration decided to hide, because it didn't support their pro-charter school ideology.

[Nile]

145. Why would the NEA slit their own throat.

Why would the NEA slit their own throat and support charters.

[LWolf]

149. post # 72. n/t