Question about "9/11 - arabs dancing" video

[DireStrike]

I've heard it bandied about that the video shown, after 9/11, of arabs dancing in the streets was from years before 9/11.

- IS this true? What credible sources say this?
- Despite whatever circumstances may have surrounded that one instance, is there ANY video of arabs dancing in the streets because of 9/11?

Obviously, many arabs were happy to see their "enemy" as they saw it, suffer a blow. I'm only concerned with the point of the video.

[alfredo]

1. I saw a video of kids dancing and clowning around for

the camera.

[Warpy]

6. yes, mostly teenaged males, a few older guys, nobody over 30

I remember the footage quite well. They only knew buildings had been hit, and were celbrating a bully getting a black eye.

Two days later, there were pictures on the web of memorial sites all over the world once the news of the enormous loss of life had sunk in. One of the most touching ones was in East Jerusalem. They got no airplay, of course.

Haters just love to hate. It wouldn't make a difference if they'd all been in sackcloth and ashes that day, the haters would still hate them.

Once the news of how many people had been killed was out, there were no more celebrations by callow youth or anyone else.

[DireStrike]

8. Of course.

Like I said, I didn't want to get into this. But I agree with you.

[tintin99]

13. If fact, the celebrations were still going on

two days after the towers fell. There are lots of stories that you can find on the web from AP, The Times (U.K.), Ain-al-Helweh, Lebanon (AFP), etc. The PA actually threatened jounalists not to release the videos they had. The info is out there if you really care to look.

[alfredo]

16. They were the exception. Most knew the attacks would cause

the shit to hit the fan.

Remember, there were some Israelis dancing and laughing, filming the disaster and smiling for the camera. The press reported them as Arabs, but soon it was found they were Israeli citizens. They were deported.

[DireStrike]

24. Not particularly interested in public arab opinion at that moment.

I was just interested in the truth of this one well known case.

I have no doubt that there were some who were happy or even celebratory. Personally I don't fault them, no matter how many there were. We've provided ample horrifying ammunition over the decades for a hostile or even semi-neutral press to convince others that our death would be good.

And hell, people just like to see fighting, and especially killing. Especially if there's death and fire. I don't even want to guess how many Americans watched CNN(now Fox) during invasions and bombings with glazed-over eyes and a bowl of popcorn.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

50. How do you feel about the way Americans danced & cheered when we nuked

civilians in Japan?

[blurp]

52. Fine. What about you?

[LynnTheDem]

53. So you only have a "what the fuck is WRONG with you" attitude when it's

AMERICANS getting killed.

When WE kill others, you're fine with the dancing and cheering.

So. What the fuck is wrong with YOU?

PS: aside from being a total hypocrite.

[blurp]

54. Nothing is wrong with me.

If you can't see the difference between cheering the end of World War II and cheering the destruction of the twin towers, you're beyond hope.

[LynnTheDem]

59. No dear. YOU are "beyond hope".

Because you still think murdering 200,000 CIVILIANS had anything to do with "ending WWII", (very few Americans still believe that old bullshit nowadays) and because YOU don't mind people dancing and cheering at the deaths of 200,000 CIVILIANS...as long as they're anyone but American.

[Tafiti]

76. You are exactly right.

Clearly, some people think their high school history textbooks tell the whole story. I thought it was well known by now that the nukes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were, at best, unnecessary. It was clear the Japanese were going to capitulate w/o the nuclear blasts, while the real motive was probably a "shock and awe" message to Russia not to mess with the US. One of the most despicable atrocities of American history...

[Ms. Clio]

77. Even if Hiroshima could somehow be justified, Nagasaki simply cannot

You are also exactly right--Truman called the atom bomb his "ace in the hole" in dealing with Russia.

[Tafiti]

81. Yep.

And the oft-repeated justification, seen downpost -- that the bombings would save 1 million civilian lives and hudreds of thousands of troops -- was grossly exaggerated. Of course they're going to claim that - how else would they have been able to round up public support for such actions?

[Nile]

102. They danced it the streets when war in the Pacific soon ended.

They did not dance at the bombing.

[fat free goodness]

55. You are correct.

I think you are correct in your opinion. Those were people, and countrymen. I am surprised no one else has publicly agreed with you.

We may think our government needs to be changed, but if we don’t care about protecting innocent countrymen, we shouldn’t be the new ones in power. Yes, the innocent should be protected no matter what country they are in. But, our countrymen have first claim to our loyalty. (Side effect: If not, then you have just ceded to the Republicans justification for the Iraq war – we must be the worlds policeman, for all have equal claim.)

I am new to DU, and have been reading for weeks without posting. I am interested in the range of opinions, but one thing that strikes me as a newcomer is the depth of the revulsion for our government I see in many posts.
WHY do we want to change the government? Is it just so we can be in power? Or do we want to serve our citizens better?
Given a choice between choosing a government that will serve all the world equally, or a government that will place the interests of it’s own first (while still “playing nice”), I choose the one that will serve my interests.
The quarrel I have with our current government is that I think it does not server our interest as well as it might. I will be voting to select one that does better. The Democratic Party may be better. But not if it changes to reflect the more radical opinions I see here.

[clem_c_rock]

70. There's a higher form of patriotism than for country

It's called patriotism for humanity. Patriotism for country over this is called ignorance. And further, patriotism for your country over humanity is actually treason.

For example, anyone, at this point, who supports the war in Iraq and feels it's their duty as a patriot to support it, is only supporting the hijacking of our original constitutional foundations.

And as far as radical opinions, I can't see anything much more radical than the Bush regime.

[Ms. Clio]

75. Great response

"And as far as radical opinions, I can't see anything much more radical than the Bush regime."

WORD!!!!

[fat free goodness]

88. I disagree

"It's called patriotism for humanity. Patriotism for country over this is called ignorance."

No, I don't think so. Our government is OUR government, and our leaders are OUR leaders. Other nations have their own leaders, and make their own decision. When we start to think we are loyal “citizens of the world” we start down a very slippery slope.
Consider . They are deforesting the rain forest. That’s a world resource! We have a right to a say in their decision, don’t we? And we have a right to expect them to be good world citizens also?
If we are citizens of the world, don’t we have a responsibility to act as it’s policemen?

I don’t think any of the above is true. We elect our leaders, who work on our behalf (with a respect for common decency and the right of other countries, of course.)

[clem_c_rock]

90. Out of context

I said "Patriotism for country over this is called ignorance". The "this" being the idea of patriotism for humanity. If we have that we won't be allowing OUR leaders (another highly debatable topic in the last 2 elections - http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm#password ) to be "World Policeman" at others expense and wouldn't allow illegal wars.

We live on a tiny speck of dirt floating. Somehow, there's got to be a higher form of thinking other than team spirit.

[slor]

65. How about the right-wing websites...

that rejoiced in the attacks on 9/11. I do not hear your indignation directed at them, or the "religious leaders" that blamed the attacks on gays and other "sinners". Where is your outrage on that?

[Ms. Clio]

27. If there are so many truly credible stories, then post some links

yourself. If the information is so easy to provide, then do so.

[tintin99]

29. In the time you took

for your snide reply you could have 'googled' it yourself. Afraid of what you'll find?

[Ms. Clio]

31. You made the claim

You back itup.

That's how it works here.

[fat free goodness]

57. Snopes says the footage is real.

Snopes says the rumor that the footage used by CNN was old 
is a false urban legend.

http://www.burstnet.com/cgi-bin/ads/sk1874c.cgi/1468/zgFFFFFFx000000l000000v000000k000000/RETURN-CODE

[fat free goodness]

58. Sorry. Should have read further.

I see someone else already posted the snopes link.
I plead newbiness, and ask forgivness.

[Tinoire]

62. What Snopes 4 some very odd reason, neglects is the rest of the story

There were reports of celebrations on the West Bank, and at the time there was an urban legend that the footage of some Palestinians celebrating the attacks was faked, and that it was actually footage from the invasion of Kuwait. This was proven false shortly afterwards <1> (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm), and the media widely circulated that fact.

However, the US media did not widely circulate European media reports (by the German weeklies Der Spiegel and Stern, by the German public TV magazine Panorama and by the Swedish Dagens Nyheter) that while the footage was indeed correctly dated, reporters may have partly staged one of the scenes. One woman was quoted saying that she was offered a piece of pie for whooping it up in front of the camera. It is unclear whether it was explained to the woman what she was supposedly celebrating, nor is it clear whether the person who offered her the treat was a reporter. <2> (http://www.wtc-trauer.de/mirror/Spiegel_DieMachtderTVBilder.htm) The Panorama TV report which analyzed the full video footage noted (translated):

A closer look at the complete film material which was not broadcast shows that the street around the celebration is quiet. Only in front of the camera there are a few excited children. The woman, who is remembered for her cheering, shortly afterwards moves along quietly. A man in a white T-shirt is conspicuous. He incites the children, and keeps fetching new people. The woman who just left the picture says today that she was offered cake if she celebrates on camera, and that she was appalled when she saw the pictures on television. <3> (http://www.oekonux.de/liste/archive/msg03518.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrations_of_the_September_11%2C_2001_attacks

[Hephaistos]

98. See also post 97 below

This has been pointed out to Snopes, I believe several times, and they have refused to correct their story, even when presented with direct evidence of an error.

Maybe they are sloppy, maybe they have an agenda...

[Tinoire]

63. What Snopes 4 some very odd reason, neglects is the rest of the story

There were reports of celebrations on the West Bank, and at the time there was an urban legend that the footage of some Palestinians celebrating the attacks was faked, and that it was actually footage from the invasion of Kuwait. This was proven false shortly afterwards <1> (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm), and the media widely circulated that fact.

However, the US media did not widely circulate European media reports (by the German weeklies Der Spiegel and Stern, by the German public TV magazine Panorama and by the Swedish Dagens Nyheter) that while the footage was indeed correctly dated, reporters may have partly staged one of the scenes. One woman was quoted saying that she was offered a piece of pie for whooping it up in front of the camera. It is unclear whether it was explained to the woman what she was supposedly celebrating, nor is it clear whether the person who offered her the treat was a reporter. <2> (http://www.wtc-trauer.de/mirror/Spiegel_DieMachtderTVBilder.htm) The Panorama TV report which analyzed the full video footage noted (translated):

A closer look at the complete film material which was not broadcast shows that the street around the celebration is quiet. Only in front of the camera there are a few excited children. The woman, who is remembered for her cheering, shortly afterwards moves along quietly. A man in a white T-shirt is conspicuous. He incites the children, and keeps fetching new people. The woman who just left the picture says today that she was offered cake if she celebrates on camera, and that she was appalled when she saw the pictures on television. <3> (http://www.oekonux.de/liste/archive/msg03518.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrations_of_the_September_11%2C_2001_attacks

[Ms. Clio]

68. That wasn't the point of this exchange, though

The person I was responding to claimed that there were many stories in numerous media sources about many other "celebrations" and I asked for links to some of them. For some odd reason, he or she is unable to furnish those links.

Snopes has been wrong before, and is wrong about this.

[fat free goodness]

83. So Snopes is wrong and you are right? Maybe, but

I’ve seen lots of evidence that some Arabs, some non-Arab Muslims, and probably others who don’t like the US, celebrated or expressed satisfaction at the attack. Many still do. Not a majority, by any means.
A Palestinian admitted to me that he personally felt joy when he first heard about it, though he felt bad about that on reflection.

This is not surprising nor damning of Arabs, or Muslims in general. Just think about it. We know we are unpopular in (insert area here, for the sake of argument select Palestine.) Then we get hit hard by someone they identify with as a hero. Why do you find it impossible to think many celebrate(d) or rejoice(d) without even really thinking about whether it was really a good thing or not?

Quick google:
http://www.abqjournal.com/pix/photoswtctwo09-11-01.htm
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/09/08/nextre08.xml
(you can find more yourself)

[Ms. Clio]

84. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You link to a photo that has been extensively discussed throughout this thread as being staged. Two children who look like they are holding up their hands for candy do not say diddly squat about what the Palestinians or Arabs thought about anything. Your second link is to something that did not even happen on 9/11 at all, so I don't know what you think it proves.

I will say it again--tintin99 claimed that there were many other such "celebrations" (gosh, I hope they weren't more raucous and rowdy than that photo you linked to, or someone probably got hurt) on and after 9/11 and that they continued for days. He conjured up visions of multitudes of bad Arab people cheering on the evil terrorists. I merely asked for credible links to those stories.

Looks like I'm still waiting for them.

[Sterling]

92. Snopes has been very wrong before, we have seen this here so...

You don't get to use Snopes as the final word on anything.

[The Stranger]

78. The point is to stop propagating falsehood.

So if you are going to assert something, and you are asked to back it up -- especically when it is being used by the Right Wing to support their causes -- you need to be the one to back it up.

Still waiting.

[benburch]

2. Here is the skinny on the story.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

[DireStrike]

7. Snopes - I should have checked there. Thanks! -nt-

[alfredo]

61. Oops! I am changing this post due to a mistake.

I had posted that Snopes was wrong on it being 3PM in Palestine at the time of the attacks. I stated that it was 4 PM, but I forgot about Daylight Savings time.

My bad

[Hephaistos]

97. Snopes is WRONG!

I have no beef in this issue, except it struck me as odd that Israel was supposedly only 6 time zones ahead of NYC. It's not - it is 7 time zones ahead, two ahead of the UK, which is 5 ahead of EST.

With respect to daylight savings time:

- Israel changed the date it was going to daylight savings sometime around 2001; in 2001, however, Israel/Palestine were seven hours ahead, and at 9 am EST it was 4 pm in Palestine. Don't get misled by links showing that Israel changes to daylight savings in October in any other year.

- daylight savings doesn't actually matter: the near east is 7 timezones ahead - which means that the light situation in Palestine at 9 am EST should be roughly equivalent to the light at 4 pm EST in, say, DC, 10 days before equinox. Sunset should have been between around 7:15 pm.

According to the this weather site, Sunset was actually somewhat before 7 pm local time (different longitude within time zone), it was partly cloudy, and the day was 12 hours and 30 minutes long:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/LLBG/2001/9/11/DailyHistory.html

The question to ask youself: could that video have been shot less than 3 hours before sunset? What about a little less than 4 hours? On a day that was partly cloudy?

Hmmm..... :shrug:

[Clark2008]

3. Snopes says the video was real

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

[DireStrike]

9. Snopes - I should have checked there. Thanks! -nt-

[Tinoire]

11. One thing I don't think Snopes reported is that the photos were cropped

to remove the non-Palestinian adults who were handing out sweets to those kids. The whole thing was propaganda of the vilest kind. Somewhere on DU someone had posted the pre-cropped photos and the story that went with it. If I can find it, I'll post it.

[tintin99]

12. Handing out sweets ...

is how palestinians traditionally celebrate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. YES! The video was cropped!

I wish I had bookmarked the page, but I saw video footage from a German TV station in which they showed the same ten people that we saw "rejoicing" in close up and then pulled back the camera to show that they were just indeed a cluster of about ten people on a sidewalk where most people were walking past and ignoring them.

[JohnyCanuck]

34. Celebrating Palestinians: Scene was actually staged

by Juergen from Indy Media:

"A few days ago a Brazilian student, Marcio, claimed CNN was showing old scenes of celebrating Palestinians, claiming they were celebrating the WTC disaster. Well, the scenes were not old, but were manipulated!

"In a recent statement CNN insisted that the famous footage was shot on the day of the WTC blast. Meanwhile, German reporters of the prestigious "Panorama" TV magazine investigated how the scenes were shot. What they found out was amazing. On German TV they aired, supposedly for the first time, parts of the entire 4-minute footage not previously shown.

"It became clear that a person was animating a couple of children to cheer in front of the camera. The woman cheering was offered a candy to act cheerful. She later said she was shocked that her pictures were shown in the context of the terrorist attacks. She had no idea what they were for. A total view of the scene shows a street largely full of at best apathic people doing business as usual. Only a handful of people standing in front of the camera are celebrating.

<snip>

"Furthermore, the highly regarded German magazine "Der Spiegel" has had an article on this. The article shows the picture of the woman getting candy and another one people showing more people in the background of the cheering kids. These people are passing by as usual.

http://www.iap.org/staged.htm

[LynnTheDem]

51. Like the fake & totally staged "Saddam statue toppling"

That was a prize piece of utter bullshit.

[Princess Turandot]

4. There was tremendous controversy when this was reported..

and after extensive review, I believe the NY Times concluded that their original report was true.

[oblivious]

5. I think it was actually 'fat -cat Republicans laughing and dancing' vid

to a popular * speech.

Something about winning the trifecta.

[riverwalker]

10. the "many arabs"

was one toothless old woman and a couple of kids. Shown again and again ad nauseum on CNN, the same piece of film. I had to question that of all the responses that day, all over the world, why did they choose that clip? If there were "many arabs" celebrating, then why keep showing the same three people, over and over again? Think about it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. See #14

Propaganda doesn't consist only of lying, but also of not telling the whole truth.

[theresistance]

17. Naturally, this receives huge coverage but...

The story of Israelis caught videotaping and celebrating 911 in New York is scrupulously ignored.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I am a teacher

and middle eastern kids at schools in my district got up on their desks and cheered when they saw the planes hit the towers.

[progressivebydesign]

20. Why would middle eastern children cheer the planes? makes no sense..

Did they know that middle easterners did the attacks at that point? Your story is interesting...

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I think

they were cheering because America was being attacked.

You know, cause they hate us for our freedoms. :)

[Tinoire]

22. Your brush is extremely broad- not to mention... "vague"

"middle eastern kids at schools in my district" :eyes:

I suppose you saw this with your very own eyes, being a teacher and all that. Too bad you didn't take pictures of all these "middle eastern kids at schools in my district".

[theresistance]

28. I agree with Tinoire...

Surely the idea of "Middle eastern kids at schools in my district" getting up on desks and cheering is a bit hard to believe. Especially "schools" in plural. They couldn't even dance on the floor, but had to be on top "desks"?

I wish I saw the image of Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz shaking hands and virtually "celebrating" once the invasion of Iraq was underway. (Note: I didn't actually see this but I've heard it reliably).

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to

your choice.

I should have said A school. There were rumors that this happened in several of our schools but this incident is the only one I know of that really happened.

[theresistance]

36. I didn't mean to offend or make accusations...

To be honest the story just sounded...well, questionable. But it is interesting that after a bit of prodding what sounded like much celebrations, turned out to be all of two children at one school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. That is the only incident I have details to report

But there were stories of this happening in several of our schools. My principal told me that it came up at a principals meeting and several of the principals there reported having problems with middle eastern kids cheering on 9/11. Colleagues reported hearing the same thing from teachers they knew in the district.

If I had known I was going to be interrogated about it, I would have asked for names and pictures. Sheesh

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. wtf?

Two 3rd grade kids stood up on their desks and cheered when their teacher showed them the news coverage of the planes hitting the WTC. One of them was Saudi Arabian. I don't remember what nationality the other one was.

No, I wasn't there, but the teacher is a good friend of mine and she told me about it. She also said she had to call for help to keep the rest of the class from beating them to a pulp. So she didn't really have time to take a picture. (and why she would want to is beyond me)

I do not make things up and I don't appreciate the implication or your attitude.

[Tinoire]

35. Yeah. Same to you too

from "middle eastern kids at schools in my district got up on their desks and cheered when they saw the planes hit the towers"

to

Two 3rd grade kids stood up on their desks and cheered.

Within the space of 2 posts you went from an implied SLEW of horrid, cheering Middle-Eastern kids in schools all over your district to hearsay about 2 kids fom "a friend of yours", showing 3rd graders "news coverage of the planes hitting the WTC". Talk about a broad brush! :wtf: is right.

Americans are liars and stupid

vs.

TWO Americans are liars and stupid

SURELY YOU AS A "TEACHER" UNDERSTAND THE BROAD BRUSH SMEAR you made based on 2 3rd graders allegedly jumping up and down.

I'm sorry but I don't appreciate your smear against "Middle-Eastern kids at schools in my district".

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. How is it a smear?

It really happened. That's not a smear.

[Tinoire]

38. Think about it harder. Think about it real hard. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. read my post #40 n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Sorry, mate...

Sounds like a load of crap to me. There's something just a bit ripe about some aspects of that tale...

Violet...

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Well like I said, Mate

I'll take notes next time and lots of pictures. :crazy:

[MrMonk]

87. Why would a teacher show such a film to 3rd graders?

[Clark2008]

60. My son is half Middle Eastern and he cried

Now, at 5, he wants to become an architect so he can design strong buildings.

I think some people on this thread are a bit full of crap.

Thanks for those pics, Tinoire.

[Tinoire]

64. Anytime and as we all know there were TONS more

n/t for the rest because that post still makes me angry the next morning.

May your son's dreams come true!

[DrWeird]

74. Is this a cattle ranch?

I smell a lot of bullshit.

[progressivebydesign]

19. The most credible story about it...

.. the shot was from a film crew that was offering free cakes and treats for the footage. It was related to something else, and was shot before the 9/11 atacks. Wish I knew where to find the link. BUT.. I swear on my life that I read a very very credible report about that damn video. It was not as it appears.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. See #14

:-)

[Neanderthal]

42. Was it this link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrations_of_the_September_11%2C_2001_attacks

[Tinoire]

46. THANK YOU for linking that ! & Welcome to DU

:toast:

However, the US media did not widely circulate European media reports (by the German weeklies Der Spiegel and Stern, by the German public TV magazine Panorama and by the Swedish Dagens Nyheter) that while the footage was indeed correctly dated, reporters may have partly staged one of the scenes. One woman was quoted saying that she was offered a piece of pie for whooping it up in front of the camera. It is unclear whether it was explained to the woman what she was supposedly celebrating, nor is it clear whether the person who offered her the treat was a reporter. (http://www.wtc-trauer.de/mirror/Spiegel_DieMachtderTVBilder.htm) The Panorama TV report which analyzed the full video footage noted (translated):

A closer look at the complete film material which was not broadcast shows that the street around the celebration is quiet. Only in front of the camera there are a few excited children. The woman, who is remembered for her cheering, shortly afterwards moves along quietly. A man in a white T-shirt is conspicuous. He incites the children, and keeps fetching new people. The woman who just left the picture says today that she was offered cake if she celebrates on camera, and that she was appalled when she saw the pictures on television. <3> (http://www.oekonux.de/liste/archive/msg03518.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrations_of_the_September_11%2C_2001_attacks


Photos of these Palestinian children were widely circulated shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks. Allegedly, they are celebrating the attacks. German media analyzing the whole film highlighted that the surrounding area is relatively quiet, that the people celebrating only appear briefly and then quickly disappear, and that a single person in a white T-shirt (shown here in the background) appears to have incited the children. (Fair use of AP photo)

[theresistance]

85. 3 kids with arms up...

and an adult obviously egging them on. Please don't tell me this is what was spread around after 911 to show people "celebrating" 911 in order to demonise Arabs.

[Swamp Rat]

23. What you saw was REAL. Arabs hate you. We are at war with Eurasia.

Go back to SLEEEEEEEEP!..........

[DireStrike]

25. That picture makes me smile.

And the sig pictures make me sad.

[Swamp Rat]

26. Then I got it right!

:)

[Tafiti]

80. Counting bodies like sheep...

...to the rhythm of the war drums...Don't fret precious, I'm here, step away from the window...and go...back to sleeeeeep.

[cire4]

39. One video doesn't outweigh the dozens of pictures of

people in Tehran, Damascus, Beirut, Amman, Istanbul, Cairo, Dubai, and Palestine who were lighting candles and writing their expressions of sorrow at the American embassy.

Even if the video was real, it doesn't prove anything other than a few whackjob radicals enjoyed 9/11. But the vast majority of Arabs were extremely heartstricken by the terrorist attacks and did not celebrate them. For that moment, the middle eastern community was actually on our side and supporting the United States of America.

Then Bush turned everything into shit and now its worse than it ever was.

[Sleepless In NY]

43. Even if its true, and I heard it was, does it apply to "all arabs"?

Some might have celebrated, there are always people like that. Yet many Arabs also expressed their sympathies to the U.S. as can be seen in many photographs. Not to mention many arabs died at the WTC too.

Conservatives love to bring this up, funny how they forget some Texans cheering the JFK assassination. Does that mean "all" Texans hated JFK & "America"?

God hated them that's why there was a Tsunami, right? Then God must hate Florida after 4 hurricanes too, I guess. And everytime there is a tornado, God brings it on, cause he hates them too. That kind of "logic" is insane.

You would think decent people would be wanting to help in such a horrific disaster, not look for reasons to condemn.

[Art_from_Ark]

44. It doesn't even prove that

The video just shows a few people in what appears to be an Arab commercial district, somewhere, some time, jumping around.

[LynnTheDem]

48. You mean like AMERICANS DANCED & CHEERED when 200,000 civilians

were nuked to pieces in Japan?

That kind of cheering?

[Sleepless In NY]

49. LynnTheDem

Good one!

[ThomasJackson]

71. no

the kind of cheering that accompamies the saving of tens of thousands of american soldiers lives, and hundreds of thousands of japanese lives that the invasion of japan would have cost. i'd have to look it up again, but it seems to me that truman had been advised that the invasion of the japanese home islands would result in something like 1 million casualties.

perhaps you could look it up?

[DrWeird]

82. Same difference.

By destroying the WTC with airplanes, that saved the lives of thousands of arab soldiers who would have been lost in a conventional invasion to destroy the WTC.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

104. War on a noun. On a method.

Damn good thing we didn't have morans around after Pearl Harbor; they'd have been declaring war on Japanese kamikaze planes.

[LeftyMom]

89. You're portraying one side of the "Truman's dilemma" argument

but neglecting to mention that the Japanese were nearly out of petroleum and that Russia had agreed to fight them. The war was drawing to a close. An argument can certainly be made that there was no justification to bomb a populated civilian center once, let alone twice.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

96. No

I just want you to realize there are two sides to that story. It isn't a matter of a generally accepted perspective and axe-grinding revisionist history, it's really a matter of legitimate debate. As such
it makes a lousy analogy when trying to prove your point, as you're treating one side of a legitimate debate as the One True Way (patent pending) and that casts the rest of your argument in a suspicious light.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

101. REALLY, dear, STOP embarrassing yourself!!!

Most all Americans know now that dropping nukes on CIVILIANS had NOTHING to do with "saving lives" or ending the war!

Good grief! HOW on earth have you managed to stay ignorant of the facts on this for SO LONG???

PLEASE!!! INFORM YOURSELF!!!

Starting point:

General Dwight Eisenhower, Supreme Allied Commander Europe during World War II:

“During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, attempting to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face’. . . .”

In a post-war interview, Eisenhower told a journalist, “…the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

General Henry “Hap” Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces during World War II, wrote, “It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”

Truman’s Chief of Staff, Admiral William D. Leahy, wrote,

“It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender…. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children….”

[theresistance]

91. Wait a minute...

This idea of x numbers being killed and x numbers being "saved" because of the nuclear bombs is very questionable. The so-called advice to Truman was very doubtful in the first place and the whole issue is hypothetical. It seems the best interpretation is that Japan was defeated and IF (a big if) the first bomb was justified, then the second definitely was not. It was more a demonstration to Stalin...

[LynnTheDem]

100. Actually YOU will want to "look it up", because YOU are so very WRONG

And you're the 2nd American who still believes that bullshit. How amazing that ANY American still believes that bullshit.

But thank God so very few do now.

[neweurope]

103. But that wouldn't hve been necessary.

"that the invasion of the japanese home islands would result in something like 1 million casualties": Over here it's being taught that surrender negotiations were already under way. There was a thread concerning this on DU, too, just a week ago I believe. I cannot be a donor so I cannot search for it.



--------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[LynnTheDem]

105. They were already trying to surrender.

And there are plenty of quotes from all the top US gov and US military brass from the time who said so.

It's utter and total BULLSHIT that nuking Japan was to "save lives" and "end the war".

And a majority of Americans know it.

There are TONS of articles on the net about the myth of "saving lives" and "ending the war", with US officials and top military brass quotes and links to US Gov declassified documents.

The myth GREW over the years, too.

In June and July 1945, Joint Chiefs of Staff committees
predicted that between 20,000 and 40,000 Americans would die in
the one or two invasions for which they had drawn contingency
plans. While still in office, President Truman usually placed
the number at about a quarter of a million, but by 1955 had
doubled it to half a million. Winston Churchill said the attacks
had spared well over 1.2 million Allies.

20,000-40,000; the OFFICIAL ESTIMATE...IF invasion was necessary at all. But hey, let's kill 300,000 civilians anyways! We're AMERICAN! We're SO MUCH more VALUABLE!

Truman's "saving lives" is rather like bush's ever-changing "rationales" for invading Iraq;

August 9, 1945: "this new weapon will result in saving thousands of American lives."

December 15, 1945: "It occurred to me that a quarter of a million of the flower of our young manhood was worth a couple of Japanese cities . . ."

Late 1946: "A year less of war will mean life for three hundred thousand - maybe half a million - of America's finest youth."

October 1948: "In the long run we could save a quarter of a million young Americans from being killed, and would save an equal number of Japanese young men from being killed."

April 6, 1949: "I thought 200,000 of our young men would be saved."

November 1949: estimating the cost of an Allied invasion of Japan to be "half a million casualties."

January 12, 1953: Truman raises the estimate to "a minimum one quarter of a million" and maybe "as much as a million, on the American side alone, with an equal number of the enemy."

Finally, on April 28, 1959, Truman concluded: "the dropping of the bombs . . . saved millions of lives."

But declassified docs also show the US military & US gov didn't believe any invasions were necessary...as Japan was already defeated & trying to surrender.

Lies and myths take a very long time to die in America. Unfortunately.

[theorist]

56. Ted Rall's "To Afghanistan & Back"

Great read! Still poignant after a couple years.

He quotes a few Afghans (Talibs and N. Alliance, as if there's a real difference) who were greatly saddened by the 9/11 attacks, and who also claimed that those responsible did not represent the average Arab. Of course, they were slightly perplexed, although not incredibly bothered, by the fact that the U.S. was dropping 5,000 lb. bombs on civilian populations on purpose.

These countries know terror as a way of life. They no more blame us than they blame bin Laden, but they do see our unmitigated support for Israel as the main reason we were attacked. I think if we're willing to arm Israel, we should be willing to arm the various Afghani tribes. We may even get rid of that darn opium problem and get a free pipeline out of it, too. :)

[Blue_Tires]

66. i remember it well

as i sat in front of the TV all day...I saw the clip (or something similar to it) on the BBC (america) under the dateline: Gaza Strip, iirc

[Ms. Clio]

69. I remember the footage, too

Then later I learned the truth about it.

[MakeItSo]

72. Israelis were seen dancing in NJ as the towers fell

CNN aired footage said at the time to be Palestinians dancing in celebration of the World Trade Center attacks. That footage was later said to predate 9-11.

A group of Israelis were questioned by the police and FBI after multiple witnesses said they saw the men photographing the WTC explosions, jumping for joy, and high-fiving each other in New Jersey.

The police and FBI field agents really became suspicious when they found maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters (the same items that the hijackers supposedly used), $4700 cash stuffed in a sock, and foreign passports. Police also told the Bergen Record that bomb sniffing dogs were brought to the van and that they reacted as if they had smelled explosives.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/12/WTC_Mysteries3.html

[theresistance]

93. But this is covered up...

See my post no.17!

[DrWeird]

73. Football games.

The US commenced bombings of red crosses and weddings in Afghanistan on a Sunday afternoon, during a number of football games. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans stood up on their chairs and cheered as it was announced on score boards.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2plus2]

86. To answer your question...

Since nobody else is really doing it..I heard the same thing and sure enough found the EXACT same footage that they had on 9/11 being used (I can't remember how many years ago)when some Arab leader somewhere survived an assassination attempt. Let me say it again...it was THE EXACT SAME FOOTAGE from the children throwing the guns, to what people were wearing...everything. I saw this on MSNBC's website on 9/13/01 and by 9/15/01 when I went to show people the "page had been moved or deleted", it was classic.