Why do working-class Republicans vote for Bush? Answer and link

[Peak_Oil]

From AR15.com, a firearms-focused message board. I think lots of DUers would call them freepers.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/

As the Republican Convention continues, we here at AR15.Com/AK47.Net are proud to endorse President Bush.

Kerry's voting past is well known to the firearm community. He's willing to go further than Clinton's administration and take our rights from us without a second thought. He's tried to play himself off as the hunter and outdoorsman, but he is in fact an anti of the worst kind.

As Kerry also continues to proclaim his military experience as a positive, we can only look at the actions he took after the war to show the true nature of this man. By throwing away his medals and accusing our military of committing heinous acts in Vietnam, he disgraced himself and the honor of those he served with. How can such a man act as our commander in chief when he has no respect for what our brave men and women do every day. Kerry is a man without honor, a liar, and a thief in the night who would disarm law abiding Americans.

America does not need to please the world and yet we must help to defend those too weak to protect themselves. George Bush's presidency has had its issues, but Bush is a man of action. When Terror hit our streets, he took the fight to our enemies' soil. America, and the world, is a safer place BECAUSE of President Bush's actions. We MUST continue to fight against terror across the world and never forget what happened on September 11th.

Democrats will claim that we turned our back on the world for vengeance sake, but America does not cater to the will of others when our own people are in peril. We can NOT let other countries dictate what is best for us. This is a time for action as we must continue to help Iraq and Afghanistan form stable and productive governments which represent their people. President Bush will not pull our troops out now and risk future problems in these countries. Kerry would sooner bow to the will of France and tuck tail and run.

America represents freedom and George Bush represents America. Keep Bush in office for another 4 years and let's keep America safe!!!

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Let's dig in to this. I'm going to summarize each paragraph with a sentence.

Kerry, who's not a real hunter, wants to take our guns from us even more than the last Democratic president did. Kerry accused our military men of crimes which put all of us in a bad light. Even though Bush has issues, he's actually fighting to keep us safe at home. The war is on for good reasons, we are good people doing good things, and we need to stick it out to the end. George Bush is a good man.

I think these are important things to consider when talking to working-class Republicans. These people want to feel good about their military service and their way of life. If we talk to them as though they are backwards or stupid or something, we're going to end up pissing them off. It's true that they may not read the same news that the average DUer reads, but how would you like to read news that made you feel like an asshole? How many of you like to listen to Amy Goodman interview Chomsky while driving to the mall for Christmas presents? I feel 2" tall every time I hear that guy speak.

If you really want to grow the Democratic party, you've got to find a way to make these people your friends instead of your enemies. These are the people with whom you have to find common ground. Without these people, the Dems will lose again in 06, and another resounding defeat in 08. Does this mean the Democratic party has to move to the right? I don't think so. Does this mean the Dems have to sell out to corporate power interests? I don't think so. All we have to do is find common issue with the ar15.com people, and find something we can agree on.

What do they want. They want to wear Tshirts that say Jesus on them. So what? They want to pray in public school. I know, that's kind of a sticky point here. They want to shoot up old cars with their assault weapons out in the desert. So what? Why should anyone care about that? They want to feel good about their legacy of military service. Why not let them feel good about it? I'm absolutely positive that there are good things that our military has done. Also, imagine pushing a platform on which we invest in the veterans. When these guys get back home as it is now, they're shuffled off to (my impression is) substandard medical care that gets cut off as soon as possible to save money, cuts in pay and pensions, poor living conditions, no training to reenter civilian life, etc. How about making sure the veterans have a lot of options when they get back to the US? How about taking care of veterans as a central plank in the Democratic party platform? They want to support the troops? We can see that and raise. What else do they want that we can cooperate on?

I think the DU people should check out what it is that working class Republicans want and try to find a way to be accomodating to them.

[bobweaver]

1. They are just clinging on to an economic system and fear losing that grip

[mbnd45]

45. WHY DON'T YOU GUYS PUT THIS IDEA TO USE

on AR15.com, instead of preaching to the choir here. Anybody is welcome to post there. You might get messed with a little bit by the guys over there, but you will not be banned for sounding too much like a commie.

[WildClarySage]

2. I totally agree with this:

I think the DU people should check out what it is that working class Republicans want and try to find a way to be accomodating to them.

In fact, we should forget all about any core democratic value and just bend over as far backwards as we can to woo voters. The problem with the democratic party is we just aren't republican enough!:eyes:

[Laura Croft]

43. possibly the funniest thing I've ever read.

ntxt.

[eallen]

3. Prayer is legal in public schools. Always has been.

The famous Supreme Court decisions ban the school from sanctioning or participating in those prayers. Students praying over lunch, at the flagpole, and between classes is not only legal, but protected speech. The ACLU has taken cases to defend such activity.

The radical right works very hard to distort existing legal precedent, as well as what groups like the ACLU defend. There is no attempt by groups like the ACLU to remove religious expression form the public square, but only from the government. We have to work hard to undo this spin. There is a difference between the larger public square and the courthouse.

[dave502d]

4. One word,Money. n/t

[Patchuli]

32. I don't get it...

Bush is taking their money too and they will support that??

Huh? I never vote against my best interests!

[coloradodem2005]

5. It seems to be all about being more socially conservative.

Now that seems to be more important then their well-being and their fellow workers well-being.

[Psephos]

6. An intelligent post

Looking for common ground may not be as satisfying in your guts as calling them morons and losers, but it is the way to majority. I'm impressed that Peak Oil went out and did some research behind enemy lines.

Many posters here have confused a desire to find common ground with a sell-out to values that they do not hold. But working class Repugs and lefties have a lot of values in common. Both groups love their children. Both groups worry about making a living, feeling safe in their homes, and knowing that their health problems will be looked after. Both groups wish for alleviation of misery not only inside our borders but also around the world. Both groups recognize that no amount of legislation can improve society as much as a widely-held attitude of basic respect toward all.

In the most practical terms, it seems it wouldn't be hard to convince a few percent of those who voted Repug that the Democratic Party has both the vision and the tolerance to invite more people to see and try things a different way. A few percent, and the Repug majority becomes a Donk majority. It won't happen by treating them as ignorant assholes. Nobody listens to the arguments of someone who's making them angry or feel belittled. OTOH, it may very well happen by stressing what we hold in common over what we hold in difference.

[FizzFuzz]

8. As you note, I think D's and R's DO hold many similar values.

Where the major problem is, IMHO is the hijacking of the media which is now nothing more than a RW megaphone.

If we were able to say what we already have been saying on airwaves that didn't censor, cut off and maliciously twist every point, every fact, even the most obvious visible event (ie. smirk blatantly displaying his ignorant arrogance at the debates), there would be alot less misinterpretation of Democratic/Progressive/Liberal philosophy.

[moggie12]

10. What do you think of this poster's Veteran's idea though?

Do you think the Dems taking up the cause of soldiers/veterans in a big way would "cut through" the RW media baloney? I've been thinking we need a few big issues that would knock the Republicans off their game. Soldiers/veterans sounds like one of them. How could the Fox guys argue against a Democratic proposal to increase death benefits for KIA soldiers? Or a proposal to fund the college education of the kids of fallen soldiers? Sean Hannity will be tongue tied, don't you think?

[FizzFuzz]

13. Anything we could do to highlight the endless hypocrisy of these pukes is

a good idea, I think. Also, highlighting real compassion, the cornerstone of MOST faiths, and showing that fundamentalism is a twisted perversion of religion--yes, some cause to promote that truth would be damn good. Again, we need most of all, a media network that puts these common sense awarenesses out in the public. Oh, and I would add, we should emphasize the truth that "values", to use an overused and abused word, are cherished by ALL peoples, not one particular religion.

I mean for crying out loud, it's not like we have brewed up some weird new idea!! Mercy, honesty, education, clear thinking, self-growth (ahg! there's a better word for that but I can't think of it!! Sorry, I'm a vocabulary fuss-budget)--anyway, those qualities have been taught by every philosophy through the ages. It's the RW-fundamentalist cesspool that's hijacked and twisted the meaning of morality.

As long as it isn't some kind of relinquishing our values of supporting life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness for ALL, of helping those in need, and refusing to discriminate against any "minority" group, then yeah! Definitely, I don't agree with diminishing good for the purpose of seeming more palatable to republicans, since I have absolutely no respect for their value system which is survival of the strongest/richest and screw everyone else.

ON Edit: Oops, I sort of went on a ramble, but as another poster said, Yeah, support the Veterans since it shows up the RW hypocrisy so well, and they sure do need the support, since SmirkCo isn't providing it. For that matter, it wouldn't hurt to make a big deal of supporting the troops--you know, armor, training, equipment, all the stuff they're being forced to have their family buy or go dumpster diving for. But it all needs to be PUBLICIZED to high holy heaven, and THAT's the tough part. The RW shills can easily twist and ignore anything they don't like. Again, that's why we need to push for more or larger Progressive media outlets.

[moggie12]

20. You weren't rambling at all

That was very eloquent, in fact. You should be a Dem speechwriter -- they need a couple of good ones (unfortunately, we probably can't use that "RW fundamentalist cesspool" line, which is a shame since it was one of my favorties...)

[FizzFuzz]

24. Oh my! Thank you!

I don't have a deep enough grasp of policy and other fine points to actually write speeches, I feel pretty lacking in that department.

But once in a while I get it right, I guess!

thank you again! :D

[Peak_Oil]

16. To be even more specific...

Imagine how great it would be to pull billions from the defense budget for things like developing new military fighter planes and using the money to pay for VA hospitals and VA staff, for retraining soldiers for peacetime careers, for putting vets to work building light rail systems for our cities as a transitional work program while they find work in the civilian world.

This could be a really great way to care for people with a military background and a way to show that Democrats support the troops, not Lockheed Martin.

Fuck Lockheed Martin anyway.

I'd much rather see the money go to supporting the people who put their very lives on the line rather than to investors who were hoping to make money.

Imagine a Democrat running for POTUS and saying, Hey vets, how would you like to see the VA hospitals get an extra billion dollars in funding this year? We're going to pull the plans to develop the F-75 or whatever, since we're a friggin LIGHT YEAR ahead of the #2 military and we don't have any reason to blow a billion on that particular project this year anyway, and we're going to put all the KIA vets' kids through college and provide a job for the amputees and beef up your hospital benefits so you can get treated for the radiation poisoning you suffered in WWIII in the Middle East.

You think that might get the attention of a couple of working class Republicans? I think it might.

Seriously, we've got to come up with our own list of things to talk about that frame the issues rather than following the Republican party's lead and just bitching about what they do.

[FizzFuzz]

22. Would it get the attention of a few working class repubs? Yeah, if the

message gets to them in the first place.

MSM again--we need some.

[moggie12]

23. I'll vote for that - two "F75"'s could probably pay for whole lot

How come us rank-and-file types can think of stuff like this but the Dems can't?? It's mind-boggling how inept they've been lately! Your last line hit the nail on the head -- they're letting Bush & Co. frame the issues. The Dems act like little gnats lately, always buzzing around criticizing and never coming up with something that will grab everybody's attention in a big way. I'll tell you what, I've never been as frustrated as I feel right now with the Party. I hope this Reid guy has a brain. It's too late now, but tomorrow night I think I'm gonna post a proposed "Democratic 10-Point Plan" and ask DUers to help these dopey Dems come up with ten specific things Dems should pound on the Republican's heads about. There's no way DU people can't do a better job than the jerky consultants the Dems must be using now.

[FizzFuzz]

25. I've heard good points here and there, (mostly here at DU actually)

and since I don't watch/read MSM at all, I could be prety behind on what the Dem party has been publicizing, but at the risk of repeating myself (sorry), I have to say again that IMO the problem is our good ideas get ripped away and thwarted by the RW Ministry of Disinformation.

Without a pulpit to speak from, freely, one that the majority of Americans can easily access (I mean friggin prime time TV that most exhausted working people collapse in front of at night), it wouldn't matter if we preached the Sermon on the Mount or the Lotus Sutra. Ain't no one hearing it.

[moggie12]

29. Yep, you can watch the cable news all night

-- and still have no idea what important things went on that day. One of the people responding to this post put a link to a NYT article about the Repubs getting rid of their own Republican chair of the Veterans Committee -- the veterans groups loved him, but he didn't toe the Party line. I have to admit, I hadn't even heard about it.

[FizzFuzz]

41. oh for god's sake--I hadn't heard that one.

sometimes I just don't WANT to know what's going on. It's too surreal.

I didn't know about this one--how disgusting!!! But it sure comes as no surprise. Oh man, once again, I want to tear my hair out--this is just too insane. And where are the sane people in a position to step up and say "knock it off" ?? I just can't believe that
Toe the party line; Welcome to the FSA. Fascist States of Amerikkka.

[Peak_Oil]

27. They can think of it.

They just decide to do something else. That's what's so frustrating about this whole thing. It's obvious the working class Republicans have family values. Just take a look over there. They're absolutely incensed at the idea of abortion. They look at it as murder. They don't like murder. I don't think anyone likes murder. Whether any given Democrat is pro or anti abortion (or choice, however you want to label it), I don't think you're going to find a whole lot of pro-murder Dems.

The DU position (largely) is that the debacle in Iraq is murder but abortion isn't. The FR position is that the war in Iraq is the good fight but abortion is murder. Both sides think they're right. OK, that's interesting. It's a tough one to resolve. So, what can we do that's constructive and doesn't require the other side to be wrong? How about supporting veterans' benefits?

I think part of the answer is that the rich white guys in Congress have their own interests, and their interests don't really intersect with working class Dems OR working class Republicans. They don't want to do things that will make our lives better because that makes their lives worse. They are the few, we are the many. As long as Congress can divide us with surface issues, we won't band together and demand unions, anti-trust laws, transparent government, sane drug laws, a decent education for our citizens, protectionist trade laws, strong OSHA rules in the workplace, strong social security and medicare systems, etc etc etc. That shit costs money, and they'd rather give it to their fraternity buddy at Lockheed Martin 'cause Lockheed donates more money to their campaign coffers than the average nurse does.

[moggie12]

30. You got that right

Politics is all about money. The politicians have got us right where they want us: fighting about guns and abortion and gays while they run off with the piggy bank. You should've heard my rant about this last election: Kerry should've just focused on Iraq and the rich people robbing all the money and he would've won by 10 million votes (I got dumped on by DUers for saying it -- they prefer the "Bush stole the election" theory). The problem is, the Dems can't make the "stole the money" argument very well since they're complicit in some of the stealing. (Yikes, I've become a radical. Hope my kids aren't embarrassed when I show up on picket lines..)

[moggie12]

12. Hey, that was really good

You said what I've been trying to say in various posts around DU. Very well said. I may quote you! You are exactly right that we're not going to get anywhere by treating people like "ignorant assholes" Doesn't seem to be a difficult to understand concept....

[Kansas Wyatt]

7. Perhaps they are too tired from working...

Long hours for not enough pay and are exhausted, and when they allegedly get the same balanced legitimate news that their parents got years ago, the Republicans and Bush makes sure that the news is sugar-coated for the Republicans and Bush. So those working class people end up thinking that Bush is no different than Eisenhower was, and we need to get back to the good ole days when things were good in this country. Let's no forget the diversionary issues are focused on so much by the Republicans and the MSM, which in truth could be easily countered and quashed by the Democrats.

As for the gun issue, I could care less if someone wants to own and fire off an M1 tank, as long as it NEVER imposes, threatens, harasses, or harms someone else. In short, have fun driving it and firing it off in the middle of your isolated property. There are a lot of people who simply are not responsible enough to have guns, and law abiding citizens should not be put at risk, just so Bubba can go mow down a fawn with a double barrel sawed off heat-seeking machine gun. Where oh where were the alarms and outcries when a bunch of people were dropped by a lunatic with an AK-47 who was upset about a deer stand a few weeks back? Surely those dead deer hunters would appreciate the government keeping assault weapons out of the wrong person's hands, but if gun nuts are okay with being shot down, then that is their 'Constitutional Right.'

[slackmaster]

40. About that guy who shot up a deer stand and murdered 6 or 7 people

Pardon me in advance if this seems like a nit to you.

The rifle was an SKS, not an AK-47. It was never classified as an assault weapon during the now-defunct ban.

The SKS rifle is still available even in California, which has a permanent AW ban much stricter than the federal one was.

Frankly the problem isn't the weapon, it's the nut behind the trigger. Someone with a pump shotgun could easily have accomplished the same amount of carnage.

[buddy999]

46. More misinformation

As for the gun issue, I could care less if someone wants to own and fire off an M1 tank, as long as it NEVER imposes, threatens, harasses, or harms someone else. In short, have fun driving it and firing it off in the middle of your isolated property. There are a lot of people who simply are not responsible enough to have guns, and law abiding citizens should not be put at risk, just so Bubba can go mow down a fawn with a double barrel sawed off heat-seeking machine gun. Where oh where were the alarms and outcries when a bunch of people were dropped by a lunatic with an AK-47 who was upset about a deer stand a few weeks back? Surely those dead deer hunters would appreciate the government keeping assault weapons out of the wrong person's hands, but if gun nuts are okay with being shot down, then that is their 'Constitutional Right.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------It was a sks.Things like this show how misinformed you pepole are ,Thus nobody takes a democrat serious.

[moggie12]

9. Great post, very constructive , good ideas

I totally agree:

1) Some of the post-election teeth-gnashing took an ugly turn (NYT columnist Maureen Dowd, in particular, engaged in a lot of not-so-subtle redneck-bashing). I lived in VA and KY for a total of nine years and I cringe at the stereotyping. There needs to be more understanding and less arrogance and anger. Just because someone likes NASCAR and didn't graduate from an East Coast college doesn't mean they're not a good person. Mark Warner won in VA because he reached out to the rural areas of the State.

2) Love the idea of the Democrats taking up the cause of veterans. Not only it would it help the Dems politically, it's the right thing to do!! (Don't you love it when there's a issue like that???) I heard on TV last night that the death benefit paid to the family of a soldier killed in action is $12K. That's a travesty. If Democrats opposed making the tax cuts permanent and instead proposed using some of the money to help veterans, how could the Republicans fight that?

[BrklynLiberal]

11. The Repukes are screwing the veterans left and right, and they still vote

for them Maybe their awareness of how the Repukes are screwing them has to be raised.

More Loyal to Vets than to Bush, Committee Chair Ousted by House GOP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1482776

[moggie12]

14. Wow, that is a disgrace...

NYT article says Smith angered Bush/GOP by pointing out VA budget shortfalls a year ago. Uggghhhh (shudder). You are exactly right when you said , "maybe their awareness of how Repukes are screwing them has to be raised." Question is how, I guess. Well, since I'm on a letter writing binge lately anyway, I guess I'll shoot a few more nastygrams to the media and the Republicans on this, for what little good that will do....

[jdj]

17. right. repukes voted to cut veterans benefits the very night of the

beginning of the Iraq war, but were stopped by dems.

This seduction of the great white homo americanus is one of the GOP's greatest ongoing accomplishments. It is all about the media monopoly, there is no hope for dems to bend over and gain converts, the bubbas of the world are going to have to be thoroughly butt-fucked before they move.

If the media could demonize a veteran ex-football player over an ex-cheerleading draft dodger, how can anyone really think dems can micro-manage masculinity and tease the testosterone enough to swing their votes over to this side.

I thoroughly disagree with the OP in every way. There are other creatures that live in the desert and wildernesses, to suggest that humans should be allowed to go out and shoot automatic weapons off in all directions anywhere they choose as long as other humans aren't put at risk is assinine. I personally am sick and fucking tired of being expected to put thumb to forefinger in order to contribute to the great american wank-off when ol' white willy whines that his privileges aren't privileged enough. And therein lies the eternal draw of the republican party for the bubba squad. They are promised in, not so many words, everlasting white supremacy, everlasting male supremacy, an eternal american one-up position while all the other varieties of humanity in this country go straight to hell. Of course they're gettin' screwed right along with everyone else, but their daddy greases them up so good they don't even notice.

[SmartBomb]

19. So true.

There's this misconception that the country is filled good people who will come running if we tune our message. Sorry, you can't undo 30 yrs. of brainwashing with an image adjustment. I say fuck 'em.

[moggie12]

28. honest, you're laboring under some misconceptions

Maybe some red-staters fit the stereotype in your mind, but I've lived in VA and KY and I can tell you, from personal experience, that there are many "good" -- make that "truly wonderful" people -- there. And it's not a matter of "tuning" our message -- that makes it sound like we're planning to "trick the dummies" by pandering to them. Ironically, it's the "we're-so-smart-and-urban" mentality that turns many people off. And I'm not just talking "Dukes of Hazzard" here, which I what I often think is the Blue America mental image of the South, I'm talking the booming suburbs. The wealthly, college-educated people react negatively to the stereotyping, too.

Maybe you've seen hate-preaching fundamentalists on TV. That's a subset, not the majority. We're losing the votes of people who are not "brainwashed" in any way, shape or form. If we can't manage to talk to them, we're dead meat.

[SmartBomb]

33. Voting for Bush is irrational under any circumstances

Suggesting democrats address the irrational beliefs of Bush supporters in order to win votes is just plain wrong. I really don't think learning to speak their language is going to do the trick. If John Edwards couldn't pull it off, no one can. Maybe if they stop watching Fox and listening to Rush we'll reach out, until then I'd rather be "dead meat".

[Harry S Truman]

44. That's right

It's all about "awareness." I am a hunter and a gun-owner and I can see right through the lies from the Repukes and the NRA. Many of us here in Pennsylvania can; Kerry took the state.
The Dems need to be louder on the simple point that any talk about Dems "taking away your guns" is a total LIE. I've talked to hundreds of gun-owning people who think Dems will take their guns. My friends and I have changed many minds.
In reality, the NRA doesn't care about gun-owners or hunters. The NRA only cares about supporting the corporate-GOPinhead extremists.

Really, could you see * or that evil Santorum actually hunting?? Santorum wouldn't know a gun from his daddy's asshole, but goofs drive around with "Sportsmen for Santorum" stickers on their trucks. We need to educate these people every day.

[SmartBomb]

15. Accommodate this!

So... because large numbers of the population are too stubborn or stupid to vote democratic, even when it's clearly in their interest to do so, we should morph into something more palatable to them? Is this a deception, or are you suggesting we actually change our beliefs to more closely match theirs?

This concept reminds me of a mistake aspiring rock bands make when they focus more on getting signed than on staying true to their music. They go round and round chasing the latest musical fads hoping to catch the wave. It doesn't work. Chasing the red state mentality won't work either. Besides, I seriously don't like these people, and I won't be able to like us if we placate them.

In one regard I admire the freepers, at least when they were down they didn't try to reinvent themselves in our image.

[Peak_Oil]

18. Supporting Veterans' benefits is unDemocratic?

Is it? I never thought it was.

[SmartBomb]

21. Supporting them because it's right is great

Supporting them for show in an effort to court hillbillies is bullshit.

[William Bloode]

26. And thats exactly the kind of remark....

and attitude that cost the Democratic party alot of votes. If folk down south think thats how they are percieved "hillbillies & rednecks" Why should they vote for that party?

Continue to do it though i don't mind, as i have grown numb to being viewed as a dumb hillbilly. But at times it's damn hard....you are only hurting yourself.

[moggie12]

31. Looks like you get the last word, Mr. Bloode

And some good ones they were.

[SmartBomb]

34. Not so fast ; )

So what you're saying is that these folks are so feeble-minded that we condescended them into voting for a maniac. Look, the notion that people make bad decisions because their feelings have been hurt is a total crock. After the way they've behaved over the last five years they deserve every insult I can dream up, and then some.

You guys are miles off on this one.

[moggie12]

36. Still awake? I thought I was the only one up late...

Yeah, you're right, that would be an overstatement. What upsets me is the post-election reaction (especially pieces like Maureen Dowd's in the NYT). Like we didn't have enough problems as it was, a bunch of pundits come out and start dumping on the religious right and the rednecks (Dowd actually implied Bush voters were "intolerent and ignorant). Hey, maybe she thinks they are but, for goodness sake, don't go writing 500-words columns saying so when Fox is out there waiting to bang us Democrats over the head with it (which is exactly what they did). My point is that we shouldn't treat Red-State voters as if they are feeble-minded. There were enough potenitial Gore and/or Kerry voters in these state to have given us the election by a comfortable margin. I don't want to pander to them on "moral values" issues. I want to hit them where they live: pocketbook issues and national defense. The problem is getting past our "liberal" image and getting through the dense fog of disinformation being gushed out everyday by Fox and others. That's why I liked the Original Poster's idea about making veteran's issues a major theme: Not only is it the right thing to do, it's one of those "counter" issues that will make Red-Staters rethink their stereotyped image of the Democratic Party.

My, I'm pretty wordy for 1am. I'll shut up now.... (Did that address the point you were making, by the way?? I may have been too sleepy to properly understand your gist..)

[SmartBomb]

37. I dig

Even if I don't agree, I certainly can't fault you for being open and positive, and trying to address our dilemma. After the Horrors of the last 5 years I guess I'm just not big on the idea that we should accommodate the very people that helped get us in this mess. Maybe my darkness will pass... maybe.

Peace.

[Buck_Fush]

35. what are you nuts? n/t

[moggie12]

39. No, Original Poster is not nuts -- have you read whole thread?

This was actually a good, practical-minded discussion of HOW TO WIN ELECTIONS, which is what I really want to do. He/she was suggesting one issue that would cut through the FOX-induced fog of deception and manipulation that makes people reflexively "anti-Democratic Party" (championing veterans was his/her idea). Please take another look at thread. Just saying "are you nuts?" doesn't cut it. If you don't agree we need to do this, or if you think it can't be done, please add to the discussion by giving your thoughts on why. If you have another suggestion, please add it.

[slackmaster]

38. Disagree with broad-brush characterization "working-class Republicans"

Being a collector of firearms I've done some reading on those forums. I've read some "How much money do you make?", "What do you do for a living?" threads. I think your characterization as working class Republican is not accurate.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=309140

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=311665

Most of those who are not retired seem to be in technical or professional fields not entirely unlike DUers, i.e. people who have access to computers much of the time and have enough liberty at work to surf and post on discussion forums. Some are in the military. But not many have traditional blue collar working class type jobs. Just looking at the salary graph in the first link it's hard to imagine many of them being factory workiers, farmers, or in construction trades.

These are people with money to spend on discretionary purchases like firearms. If you want to include white-collar professionals and highly paid techies in the "working class" that's fine, but to me the term has a connotation of low-to-middle class. The people we're talking about are relatively affluent.

As far as politics go, a weak majority are Republicans with Libertarians and independents making up most of the rest. There are a lot of fundamentalist Christians, but if you look at some of the threads on evolution or abortion you can see quite a range of opinion.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=312219

Everything from rational humanists and atheists and Jews to gay-bashing bigots from the ugly side of Christianity. What I note with interest is the tolerance of a wide range of attitudes. People on the GD forum there get away with of ad hominem attacks like "How can you be so stupid?" that are thankfully not tolerated here on DU. They tolerate criticism of George W. Bush BTW. I particularly enjoyed reading this quote by user SteyrAUG this morning:

OK fine. Jesus was just a theory. He probably never even existed.

If we are gonna ignore facts let's start with that one.

He's standing up firmly to a small gang of fundies. :D

I agree that DUers should get to know the "enemy" and figure out what makes them tick. Writing them off as all cut from the same cloth - Fundamentalist, socially conservative, white male bigots or whatever image you may have confabulated - is a poor substitute for seeing what the people who chronically vote GOP are really about. The people on those particular forums make an excellent case study IMO because they are vocal, politically active, affluent, and hold deep convictions. Ignore them at your own risk.

[American Tragedy]

42. I've never heard a candidate that talked more about veterans than Kerry

He devoted a massive amount of time and his platform to investing in veterans and VA hospitals and pensions, etc.

Also, as someone has probably already pointed out to you, prayer in school isn't a sticky point here at all. You can pray in school, you can pray anywhere you want, and nobody can possibly stop you. It's a pointless argument.

[Peak_Oil]

47. New information

I just got a PM at my ar15.com account from a guy on that site who came here to DU and read this post and the followups. His stance was that the Democrats are gun-grabbers, and are not to be trusted. He wants his guns. WTF? Let him have his goddamn guns! He goes to the range or hunts or shoots beer bottles off a fence or whatever. He's not out robbing banks and threatening little kids or whatever bizarre fantasy DU has about gun owners. Maryland just dismantled their gun database, saving taxpayers $4 million a year, because law-abiding citizens who registered their guns and turned in their empty shell casing don't go out and use their guns in a crime. Not once in four years has there been a match between a registered gun and a crime.

We need to be more accomodating to the 80 million firearm owners in the US if we want to win an election.

IF we want to win an election.

The guys at AR15.com come here, and read DUers calling them freeptards and rethuglicans and how stupid they are for voting for Bush and shit like that.... we're not going to make any friends like that. I don't think that helps the Democratic party much.