Could Fox's "24" be a propaganda tool?

[Darknyte7]

I posted this in the lounge, but perhaps this is the proper forum for this question.

Now don't get me wrong, I've been watching the show since its first season, and I enjoy it. However as I was watching it last night, I couldn't help but think about the fact that throughout the show, Jack Bauer and others are constantly breaking laws. Of course there's always some exigent circumstance involved, but last night for instance, they were straight up torturing this guy (the Sec. of Defense's son)at CTU through sensory perception impairment.

Under the administrations previous policy, (the one they just remanded about 2 weeks ago) the technique that they were using would not qualify as torture, as it did not cause extreme pain or organ failure, but that sh*t sure as hell looked like torture to me.

I just wonder if this show serves as a a propaganda tool for the right, in showing viewers potential scenarios and how our "Jack Bauer's" might have to bend a rule or two in order to save millions of people.

Just a thought...

[el_gato]

1. could it? are you being sarcastic? it is nothing but propaganda

[Ian David]

6. It's darned entertaining propaganda

1) In the show, the Secretary of Defense goes to visit his son to try and convince him not to speak at an anti-war rally. The son is portrayed as a juvenile rebelling against his father based on what his dad calls, "Sixth grade Michael Moore conspiracy theories."

His dad accuses that the anti-war people are only using him because of who his father is.

In the middle of the argument, the kid starts to light-up a joint in front of his dad. Dad slaps the joint out of his mouth and yells, "have some respect for your father."

As soon as his dad leaves, he is kidnapped by terrorists outside the sons house.

When the cops show up, the son is found curled in a fetal position in the corner crying.

2) There was some scene where a plot point was being covered by Fox News.

3) A Muslim family is involved in this season's plot and in the kidnapping of the Secretary of Defense. The family involves their teen age son by asking him to deliver a briefcase where the Secty of Defense is being held. The boy's girlfriend secretly follows him and sees him deliver the briefcase.

When the boy returns home, his mother tricks him into inviting the girlfriend over, and both his parents order him to kill the girlfriend. They hand him a gun, but he hesitates to do it. Meanwhile, it turns out the mother has poisoned the girlfriend because she didn't think the boy would do it. She says, "I am very disappointed in you."

The obvious message is:
1) Anti-war protesters are stoned slackers and bad for America.
2) Fox News is good.
3) Average-seeming Muslim families are here to attack us.

Yeah, I'd say it's propaganda.

[2plus2]

29. MAN....

I got the same thing out of it...tho I didn't delve too far down the rabbit hole..










my own quote I'd like to add to my tagline but don't know how...

"if they say you're 'out there'...remind them that that is where the truth is....'out there'..."

[Chovexani]

32. WTF-ever dude

How long have you been watching the show? Because the entire second season was basically an indictment against the Iraq War. See my post downthread. Not only that but in the first season, the villains were a family of Serbian terrorists and the reason they were after Sen. Palmer was due to collateral damage from a Black Ops mission Sen. Palmer voted to authorize and that Jack Bauer was involved in. Putting aside their actions, they definitely had a legitimate beef.

As for the Muslim family this season, all I have to say is that 24 is NEVER that obvious with the "Big Bad". Ever. In every season since the first the Big Bad has never been who we initially thought it was. Even the first season, when we pretty much knew for most of the season that it was the Drazens who were behind the assassination attempt, there was an insinuation in the final moments of the season finale that the Drazens were only being used--Nina Meyers, who we thought was just a mole in CTU working for the Drazens actually turned out to be working for an entirely different organization. In season 2 the real Big Bad was not the Middle Eastern terrorists but Big Oil corporations who were behind the faked intelligence. And then in season 3 when we thought it was a Mexican drug lord it turned out to be some shadowy Europeans (who might possibly be connected to whatever group Nina was working for). The point is that 24 is one of the few shows on TV that actually keeps you guessing.

I can't believe I'm having to defend one of my favorite shows against these nonsensical allegations. People need to take a deep breath and just chill. Next thing you know someone's going to post that J.J. Abrams is a racist because the Korean husband on Lost is a jerk.

[Comicstripper]

45. Good points, BUT

1)The writers are going for cliche here. Not making any kind of statement, they just want an identifiable character. In some ways, his character is a sympathetic one. I certainly cringed when that high-pitched noise was turned up. Plus, his interrogators are depicted as being pretty brutal, until that black guy starts having hesitations and refuses to inject that chemical into him.
2)No big deal here. "24" is a FOX show. That's why they used FOX News.
3)Yeah, this bugged me a little, too. But really, they're NOT an average-seeming Muslim family-they're very wealthy, drive nice cars, have accents...not to mention that their son (who is Muslim as well) seems to be the voice of conscience. He will be the one to thwart his parents' plan, not Jack Bauer.

[LSK]

49. ummm, the show is on FOX, dont think theyd show CNN....

[pilgrimm]

2. I don't think so

It may serve as propaganda, but I don't think it's intended to be propaganda. What you described has been a constant theme in action shows and movies.

[el_gato]

3. talk about naive

[pilgrimm]

42. Speculation?

or do you have proof of the creators political persuasion?

Educate me please, I'm naive?

[newyawker99]

51. Hi pilgrimm!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[pilgrimm]

54. Hi

and thanks

[henslee]

4. I thought the cartoonish portrayals of Arab Americans was awful as well...

The writing was jingoist and crappy -- how many times was a compute expert going to effortlessly keep pulling up satellite shots on those pc terminals while Apprentice-casualty types people kept looking over their shoulders suspiciously? Oh the supsense. Yawn. It's a one note show -- this was the first time I ever really watched it -- just to see what the fuss has been about. Car chase. Car chase. Fist fight. Shooting. Boss pulling rank. The nerdy computer misfit. Yawn.

[Taxloss]

7. "Car chase. Car chase. Fist fight. Shooting. Boss Pulling rank" etc

That's pretty much every action movie of the past 30 years, isn't it?

[henslee]

8. Afraid so. Occasionally a supposedly dead friend will pop up or

something like that.

[Taxloss]

10. Oh, yes, and there's the "one last job" angle, and the mismatched cops.

Not formulaic in the least.

I watched "12 Angry Men" a couple of days ago. Now THAT's a movie.

[hfojvt]

38. Action is not my favorite genre

But I do not believe that "The Matrix", "Terminator", "Independence Day", or "True Lies" only involve car chases and fist fights and shooting. True, there is plenty of violence, death, and explosions, but there are some pretty interesting stories there as well.

[Jesus H. Christ]

5. Yup, so is Lost.

And probably plenty of stuff on Network TV.

Don't you remember after 9-11 when Administration officials went out to Hollywood to see how they could help out the "War on Terror." And then it was reported that they came to some kind of agreement, nobody reported what that agreement was of course.

[Ian David]

11. The other seasons of 24 were much better

Especially the last season, when Jack didn't have to keep rescuing his daughter ever few hours.

Come on, she was attacked by a mountain lion?

One thing I loved though was when Jack's partner Chase was tortured for hours by Central American drug lords. He not only managed to escape (with help from the drug lord's girlfriend) but managed to run around and fight bad guys for the rest of the show.

Not to mention the guy who was shot in the neck but insisted on returning to work within an hour or two with only a gauze pad and some surgical tape. But at least his was a desk job.

I'm sorry, I don't care if the lives of an entire city are at stake, but if I get shot in the neck, the CTU can damned well call Labor Ready and hire a temp.

[Darknyte7]

15. I can hear the argument now...

"Now what they did to Chase last season! Now THAT was torture! What they did to the Secretary of Defenses son at CTU wasn't torture..."

[bunkerbuster1]

12. Lost? Well, I have a theory

the Iraqi dude? Note that they refer to his stint in the "Republican Guard" more often than they mention that he's from Iraq? Hmmm. How do you think Joe n' Jane Sixpack digest that?

Note as well that his soul has been utterly destroyed by his past as a torturer. again... hmm. How do you think Joe n' Jane Sixpack digest that?

[soleft]

9. Didnt Frank Rich just write an article saying why it works against Bush

I didn't read the whole thing but I thought the gist was that in 24 they fight an actually war againt terrorists, as opposed to US invasion of Iraq

[el_gato]

13. it's all about the boogey man

crazy terrorists are out to get you so you better give up your freedom

[jarab]

17. A peek at the credits' small-print indicates that ....

.... an advisor is Karl Rove. And I noticed the same in a slam-banger starring Yosemite Sam.
Off with the TV!

...O...

[soleft]

20. Are you serious? If that's true I'm done with it

[w13rd0]

14. Maybe so...

...but in their world...

1) the terrorists are either
a. Arab Muslims or affiliated folk
b. corporate/government rogues

2) the use of torture is the only reliable way to get information

3) agencies "steal" from one another routinely, and seem to have as much suspicion and animosity for one another as they do against "the terrorists"

4) you can pull up satellite photos of a guy crossing a road, but a kid with headphones on doesn't think to just bend his neck and roll his head along his shoulder to dislodge the radioshack headphones

5) running into a crowded public place is no longer the safe thing to do. people don't even pay attention when someone nearby is shot and falls down.

6) an agent can repeatedly display complete disregard for the law and continue to be promoted... OH SHIT! WAIT!

7) covering up assassinations and mass deaths is easier than covering up the illicit affair of someone on your campaign staff

I'm watching it, it's amusing in much the same way Alias has become amusing for me. I like to yell at the TV and scream about all the blindly massive plot holes and deux ex machina moments.

[The White Tree]

16. Yes he did. Here's the link.

Really good article.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/arts/09rich.html>
Registration is required.

DOES anyone still remember the war on terror? On Sunday night, Jan. 9, it will be lobbed back onto the TV screen like a hand grenade with the new season of "24," Fox's all-cliffhangers, all-the-time series about Jack Bauer, the relentless American intelligence agent played by Kiefer Sutherland. You will find no plot surprises divulged here. But tune in, and you'll return, not necessarily nostalgically, to the do-or-die post-9/11 battle that has been all but forgotten as we remain trapped in its nominally connected sequel, the war against Saddam Hussein.

This show is having none of President Bush's notion that Iraq is "the central front in the war on terror." In "24," the central front of that war is the American home front, not Mosul. "We weren't thinking of the war in Iraq when we came up with this story," said Joel Surnow, the show's co-creator, when I spoke with him last week. On "24," they're thinking about Islamic terrorism instead of Baathist insurgents, about homeland security instead of the prospects for an election in the Sunni triangle.

[ThorsHammer]

21. Also, didn't Bauer stop them from going to war based on bad info?

[Chovexani]

36. Yes, yes he did!

Thank you for pointing this out in the midst of all the horseshit being spouted on this thread.

In season 2, there was a terrorist plot to blow up LA with some kind of nuke. Supposedly the terrorists were being financed by a Middle Eastern country that was never named on the show (on the TWoP boards we called it Fauxraqistan). Thanks to some heroics the bomb ended up going off over the desert, but it was still a nuke on American soil so there had to be some kind of response. President Palmer was being very heavily pressured by some PNAC types to declare war on Fauxraqistan, but then CTU discovered that the evidence they found linking Fauxraqistan to the terrorists (some kind of audio thingie, I forget exactly since I don't have the DVDs) was fake. Palmer refused to go to war based on fake info and told Jack to find out wtf was going on. At any rate, it turned out the whole thing was a MIHOP conspiracy by Big Oil corporations to get a war going in the region so they could rake in the profits from the higher oil prices that would result from a war and loot Fauxraqistan of its oil. Jack was able to prove it and thus war was averted.

Palmer stood up to the military and PNAC types, he was very adamant that they only go to war as an absolute last resort, and that he was not about to send troops into harm's way or bomb innocent people based on sketchy info. This was a very consistent theme throughout the season. I'm frankly baffled by all the bashing of the 24 TPTB in this thread. I mean FFS, we're a grand total of 4 episodes into the new season. On this show that's practically nothing--we haven't even hit the first twist yet. People need to calm the fuck down.

[MadHound]

18. LOL friend, of course it is propaganda.

Don't you realize that TV shows have two big functions. The first is to provide filler material between ads that will draw in consumer attention. The second is to act as a propaganda vehicle. It isn't for entertainment value, it is to promote the "American Way" and the values that those in power want the public to emulate. Thus we have a plethora of police shows, a multitude of selfish, mean-spirited dog eat dog realty shows, violence run amok, and that good ol' American standard, T&A, all very misogynist, all directed to subtly push the public in the direction our power elite sheepherders want us to go.

[hfojvt]

35. maybe you could explain

how "The Love Boat", "Family Ties", "Lou Grant", and "Will and Grace" are just as much right-wing propaganda as "24".

[MadHound]

37. Never watched any of those shows very much

And granted, they are not in your face propaganda like 24 is, but propaganda they are, just more subtle. Promoting stereotypes, promoting consumerism, hell, the Love Boat was really nothing more than a multi year ad for the cruise industry. And it is all nothing more than attractive filler material for the real purpose of television, which is advertising.

[stanwyck]

19. I watched for the first time this past Sunday

because I'd heard, from reliable sources, that it was a good show. Maybe it gets better after you've seen a few shows, but I was very disappointed. Again, this may not be fair. Other shows have had to build. Generally the more complex, well-written shows have a learning curve.
I was just so turned off by the sight of the "hero" (Keifer Sutherland's character) shooting a guy he was interrogating that I shut down. I can't rationalize how a supposed good guy is so debased. I've heard the "It's a cartoon" explanation. But the ugly reality of how low our country has fallen is so prevalent in the news that seeing a "hero" act out the lowest common denominator aspect of our psyche on a TV show is sickening. It's the "might makes right" credo that has turned our wonderful country into a bully. We're stronger. We have better weapons. So, we're the best and what we do is right. Always. The show seemed to be in line with that philosophy.
"24" appears to be promoting the ugly America. Not the beautiful America.

[WarrenL]

22. Not really propaganda, but a tool to show difficult decisions

Hello,

I watched the first four hours they've played and at first I was a litle worried they were heading that route. However, I've backed away from that for what I feel is solid reasoning.

The first two incidents of interrogation occur like this - The initial terror suspect is held and interrogated with questioning. This gets nowhere, but Jack has a lead and believes he has about 4-6 minutes to get information out of the guy because something is going to happen at 8AM. So when the suspect stonewalls him, he shoots him in the leg and gets the information he wants in time to start the ball rolling although he is unable to prevent the kidnapping.

Next, the Sec. of Defense's son is interrogated, this time based on an inconclusive polygraph. The head of CTU, Erin, is fresh from the slight of Jack's effective use of torture. So she instructs the CTU agent to go after the kid. The agent uses it as a scare tactic, but at the last minute won't do it and asks Erin for the order in writing if he's forced to do it. So they use a non-invasive interrogation technique involving sensory deprivation/overload.

Now we all can sit back and say that all torture is wrong and evil. However, we don't live in a black and white world. What the show presented to us was more of a question. What would you do and approve of? Jack tortured a known suspect quick and efficiently to get an answer he needed. Was it right or wrong? You have to think about it. The counter is Erin wanting to interrogate the son based on almost no evidence. Again, you have to decide whether its right or wrong yourself.

Folks, all I'm saying is that nothing is black and white. A show like this isn't going to spoonfeed you characters who live in a vacuum and get things done while maintaining the highest of moral standards. That's why Jack is almost an anti-hero. He goes and does things that make us cringe, but he does them because he usually has a pretty good belief the result will be worth it. But we're also shown characters who don't make as wise choices (Erin) and we're left to question and make our own conclusions...

In other words, like reading or anythign else, do it with a critical eye and don't expect things to not ask hard questions.

[RuleofLaw]

23. This is a faulty premise:

"So when the suspect stonewalls him, he shoots him in the leg and gets the information he wants in time to start the ball rolling although he is unable to prevent the kidnapping."

This assumes that anyone will give correct information when tortured, and that we only torture people who has the information we seek.

what if:

1. The person being tortured believes, that regardless of what he says, he will die. Why should he tell the truth. Why not stall and tell a lie that will prolong the inevitable?

2. What if the person has been tortured to such a degree that he no longer can separate reality from what his interrogators wants to hear?

Q: "is the bomb in no. 8?"
A: "no, it's no 7."
Q: "you're lying, we know its no. 8. it's no. 8, right?"
A: ""No, I am telling you, its no. 7, please stop"
Q: "you're lying"
A: "yes, yes, please stop. It's no. 8"

(Excuse for my poor dramatic writing, but you get the point)

[WarrenL]

28. Well....

thats the point I was making - Most intelligent people realize interrogation doesn't get you accurate information. But the questions you asked are legitimate and the fact you're asking them is what I'm referring to. We have to consciously think about these things and weigh them in our mind.

In Jack's world, he knew the guy was a terrorist, not suspected. He believed the man had info and he wanted it. How he got it and whether it was accurate is where we need to think for ourselves. Now in my version of the show, the terrorist would have given false info and Jack would've run after a bad lead and wasted time...however I was pleased so far with Erin's bumbling of the interrogation of the son. That's also more of the Bush mentality. Abu Ghraib and Gitmo both involve the "torture everyone and get everything mentality" which is truly flawed. What Jack did was know the exact piece of info he wanted and that the man had a high probabilty of knowing it.

Is it right or wrong? Again, that's something you have to decide for yourself. If I was in his shoes, I'd do the same thing probably, but there's no chance in hell I'd do what Erin is doing.

Remember that choice he had to make later on as well was a difficult one - where he had to save Chloe's friend by shooting the two terrorists even though he wanted to let him die and follow the main suspect. Again, here's an immensely hard decision to make. The role of Jack is not one I'd ever want to take on in my life, I wouldn't be able to live with those kinds of choices.

[Darknyte7]

25. I appreciate the thoughtful response.

Welcome to DU friend! :hi:

[WarrenL]

31. Thank you its good to be here!!

[newyawker99]

52. Hi WarrenL!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[negativenihil]

24. wow

you know, i've been a long time fan of 24, since the begining- and i too noticed all the subliminal propoganda present in this season. there seems to be a *lot* more this season.

very weird.

[newyawker99]

53. Hi negativenihil!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

26. Turn. Off. TV. Now.

[Chovexani]

27. Dude your tinfoil hat is way too tight

Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax."

If you've truly been watching the show since the first season (I have too) you'd know just how silly that statement is. Palmer, as Senator and then President was the Anti-*. He had so much integrity it actually ended up hurting him, and he chose to not seek re-election after last season because he couldn't live with the stuff he had to do as POTUS. If anything 24 is actually kinda liberal, remember the second season plotline? The whole terrorist threat from Fauxraqistan (as we called the nameless Middle Eastern country on Television Without Pity) was a MIHOP plot by Big Oil corporations to start a Middle East war in order to drive up oil prices/steal oil. The story was plotted out in advance but it seems like they got in so many freaking digs at the Chimp, President Palmer was adamant that they not go to war until they had all the facts and that he was not going to risk the lives of American servicemen/women based on lies.

And have you been watching it since it came back on this season? A CTU agent refused to inject the DoD's son with that nerve toxin or whatever the hell it was because he believed it to be an inappropriate use of force.

No offense but I think you are concentrating way too much on Jack Bauer and not looking at the greater context of the show. I think you're way off-base here.

[WarrenL]

30. Palmer

Palmer was a guy that throughout his run on the show, I kept saying to myself "oh my god I'd cry if we had a leader as thoughtful, intelligent, and wise as this man". He is such the Anti-Bush its not even funny...

[Chovexani]

33. Exactly!

I love 24 and the West Wing but they would get me so depressed sometimes because both shows had the presidents we should have had in real life. I swear it's a GD shame that the presidents on TV are infinitely better than this assclown we're stuck with. If Palmer or Bartlett ran in real life I'd vote for either of them.

Jesus I'd even vote for Kim Bauer before I'd vote for *.

[LizW]

34. They're (CTU) doing their own torturing this season?

Last season they farmed it out to scary-looking Asian people.

I quit on the show early last year. It's too contrived. They just keep trying too hard to shock and surprise. How many times can Jack be "almost" dead?

And most of all, Jack is just not a nice person. I haven't liked him since early in the first season. Yeah, I felt sorry for him when his wife got killed (great crying, Kiefer!), but it didn't last long. He's a jerk.

[Chovexani]

39. You missed some great stuff then.

Last year started off kind of shaky but it got really, really good at the end. The last few episodes were some of the best TV I've seen in a while.

About the torture, that's not new for CTU. They used it last year on Nina to make her talk RE: the guy who was smuggling the virus.

I'm sorry you don't seem to like Jack, but that's a subjective thing--and, contrary to the formulaic crap that passes for TV nowadays, I don't think the lead of a show necessarily has to be likable in order for the show to work. At any rate, I think Jack's a very complex character and people who think he's a jerk aren't really seeing past the surface. A lot of people like to have their white hats have really white hats, but I prefer an anti-hero and I think Jack Bauer is one of the best to come along on TV in a long time. In the last few minutes of the season 3 finale, he just got into his car and cried--when the day was saved and the adrenaline rush he needed to do it faded, the mental and physical toll caught up to him and he just broke down. It might sound cheesy, but the way Kiefer acted that scene was just brilliant. That kind of thing is why I love this show so much. Yes, Jack might not be a "nice person" ("nice people" would get eaten alive in his kind of job, just look at what happened to Tony Almeda), and because of his job he has to be a cold-blooded bastard sometimes. But that's not who he really is, and that scene went a long way to showing that despite the crazy shit he does in order to get the job done, Jack hasn't lost his humanity.

[LizW]

44. Well, damn

Now you've made me sorry I quit on it! :P

The show is hard to take, though. It takes a lot of energy and attention to stick with it and follow it. I guess I just didn't have that last year. I was bummed, too, 'cause the show has fabulous actors in it and I really liked the first season.

[Tactical Progressive]

40. But anything you do on TV drama is propaganda

to the tens of millions of people who only see what they want to see anyway.

American law enforcement, except in 'The Shield', is portrayed almost exclusively in the most noble terms. We're the pure good guys, the bad guys are pure evil, rarely more than the slightest shade of grey. And people see that and get the message that they want too: We're the good guys, the bad guys are pure evil, there are no shades of grey.

It would be one thing if the reality of deceitful WMD intelligence or Abu Gonzales and the gang introduced some cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't to people who don't want to see any. They just ignore and dismiss what they don't like, from WMD to Abu Graihb to every single lie that comes out of their thoroughly corrupt administration. It doesn't make a difference. They'll pick and choose whatever morality, ethics and sensibility that they want out of any situation, real or drama.

I noticed all the things you did, from the common theme in 24 that torture is the path to success, to the absolute black-heartedness of the Arab mother killing the innocent, fair-haired girl. But if Jack was the prototypical all-star good guy it would just reinforce a different theme: that we're always good and true, and everybody else, isn't.

Take your pick, because you can't win with sheeple who only believe what they want to believe.

[Jack_Dawson]

41. Of Course

Lifelong fan here, but the Michael Moore comment in episode 1 really gave them away.

[ScaRBama]

43. I think it's.....

the best show on TV.

[ThorsHammer]

46. Agreed

I watch it as entertainment, and nothing more.

[slutticus]

47. I was thinking about this and I have come to a conclusion.

Anyone who would use a fictional show to either justify the use of, or justify the evils of, torture or anything else...is an imbecile.

If anyone is so ignorant as to be swayed either way by watching a show...then there's really nothing we can do for them.

Plus, Kiefer Sutherland is a Dem, or at least I know he hates BushCo. There is no way he would let them hijack his show for propaganda purposes.

[Hobarticus]

48. I'm tired of the terra-fever on TV and movies...

All it does it whip up fear.

[lateo]

50. Of course it is...

Most of the shit you see on TV is bullshit.