Freepers discuss fascism. OMG........you've got to see this

[kuozzman]

I googled-definition of fascism and about the 20th result was a thread in Free Republic. Amazed, I clicked on it and became even more amazed!

The thread begins with a lengthy definition of fascism which may or may not be completely accurate, but I think it's fairly good. Well the first response to it was:

I think the demoRATS are using the Mein Kampf and Facsim playbook to a T. How many tactics of the facist movement are they using right now ? I'd say almost all of them.

There are plenty of other interesting responses after that:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/832970/posts

[jdots]

1. Ya gotta love em !

they look in the mirror and see a t.v. telling them to march in step.
Oh yeah we are the facists, freeper head turd maggots and you are the Easter Bunnys. the freeper site is the best comedy site on the net

[NYC]

2. That makes absolutely no sense.

I know someone will tell me that Freepers don't make sense, but how little sense can they make? If they can define fascism, why can't they recognize it?

[smirkymonkey]

66. ...or spell it.

MORANS.

[ooglymoogly]

71. lol

[genieroze]

3. What was the date of this? Who the heck has been in power

for four years? Are these people completely mental?

[alittlelark]

4. OPEN CHALLENGE..... Facism 1979 vs Fascism 1984

Interesting how the dictionaries altered their definitions... WHY?


It used to be be simple... "The merging of corporate and government interests."

Once Mirriam-Webster was bought, the definition changed to ' dictator...gov't"

Pull out your dictionaries folks... it will scare the sh*t out of you.



The definition of Fascism changed when it was bought out.... odds are that is the definition you now work with..... Try a used book store....

[kuozzman]

5. Interesting..........thanks

You know anything about who pulled the strings to get that done?

[alittlelark]

7. I did a paper on Fascism in the early 80's

It would be failed today due to the alteration of the definition.

SOOOOOOO F*cked Up.

[jdots]

6. Wow good point geez even dictionarys.........

The freepers use dictionarys as door stops in thier bomb shelters don't they ? ok stop me ! please.

[DearAbby]

68. I have a copy of the 1978 Websters Revised edition.

Fascism - n. principle of strong undemocratic government. -- 1978 School and Office Edition Websters.

[dave123williams]

9. I would whole-heartedly agree with your assesment.

Mussolini himself defined fascism as "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato." ("Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".)

The obvious idea being that companies, the government, families all were within the all-encompasing 'state'...no lines drawn between them.

So, it's inappropriate to label Bush a "Nazi" because racial posturing isn't a key component of his authoritarianism, but corporatism certainly is. 'Fascist' is probably closer to the truth.

There's an excellent article on the subject here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Which I'll excerpt a little of here:


Besides totalitarianism, a key distinguishing feature of fascism is that it uses a rightist mass movement to attack the organizations of the working class: parties of the left and trade unions. This strategy is variously called Corporatism, Corporativism, or the Corporative State <1> (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/bus/A0813636.html), all terms that refer to state action to partner with key business leaders, often in ways chosen to minimize the power of labor unions. Mussolini, for example, capitalized on fear of an imminent Socialist revolution <2> (http://www.thecorner.org/hists/total/f-italy.htm), finding ways to unite Labor and Capital, to Labor's ultimate detriment. In 1926 he created the National Council of Corporations, divided into guilds of employers and employees, tasked with managing 22 sectors of the economy. The guilds subsumed both labor unions and management, but were heavily weighted in favor of the corporations and their owners. The moneyed classes in return helped him change the country's laws to raise his stature from a coalition leader to a supreme commander. The movement was supported by small capitalists, low-level bureaucrats, and the middle classes, who had all felt threatened by the rise in power of the Socialists. Fascism also met with great success in rural areas, especially among farmers, peasants, and in the city, the lumpenproletariat.

Unlike the pre-World War II period, when many groups openly and proudly proclaimed themselves fascist, since World War II the term has taken on an extremely pejorative meaning, largely in reaction to the crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis, who were allied with Mussolini during the war.

Today, very few groups proclaim themselves as fascist, and the term almost universally is used for groups for whom the speaker has little regard, often with minimal understanding of what the term actually means. The term "fascist" or "Nazi" is often ascribed to individuals or groups who are perceived to behave in an authoritarian manner; by silencing opposition, judging personal behavior, or otherwise attempting to concentrate power. More particularly, "Fascist" is sometimes used by members of the Left to characterize some group or persons of the far-right or neo-far-right. This usage receded much following the 1970s, but has enjoyed a strong resurgence in connection with Anti-globalization activism.

Fascism, in many respects, is an ideology of negativism: anti-liberal, anti-socialist, anti-Communist, anti-democratic, anti-egalitarian, etc., and in some of its forms anti-religion. As a political and economic system in Italy, it combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, and anti-communism.

[yardwork]

31. The chimp may not be racist but gay-bashing is a key component

of his authoritarian-style government.

It always sounds over the top to compare the chimp to Hitler (even though the comparison may be valid). I prefer to compare him to Mussolini, to whom he is a better fit.

The trouble is that a lot of Americans have only a hazy concept of Mussolini. They have only a hazy concept of fascism (partly because the definition has been manipulated).

I think it's interesting that a lot of people old enough to have served in WW II hate and fear bushco. They recognize him. They've seen it before. It's the slightly younger generation that seems totally bowled over by him. Why I don't know.

[Artemis Bunyon]

40. Do you have both full definitions? Don't have a 1979 dictionary handy...

x

[DownNotOut]

51. Ya. Its a good thing that

socialism and communism have nothing to do with the "The merging of corporate and government interests." We'd be fucked if they all ended up being the same thing...


DownNotOut

[5thGenDemocrat]

8. Maybe the third time is the charm

You've got to love these paragons of right-wing intellectualism. The poster gets a whack at spelling both "fascism" and "fascist" and doesn't get either one right.
John
Interesting that his spelling of "Mein Kampf" is right on the button. It's probably the only book this joker has ever read -- excepting the pages which are stuck together.

[txaslftist]

49. ROTFLMAO

Ach...ya kill me, 5th gen. ya just kill me.

[nashville_brook]

62. he actually didn't read it -- got the reference from the Turner Diaries

[tridim]

10. From "The 7 conditions that foster and fuel fascism"

Spot on. This is exactly what the Cons are doing right now.

"7. Organized Propaganda: The creation of social mythology that venerates (creates saints of) one element of society while concurrently vilifying (dehumanizing) another element of the population through misinformation, misdirection and the obscuring of factual matter through removal, destruction or social humiliation, (name-calling, false accusations, belittling and threats). b) The squelching of public debate not agreeing with the popular agenda via slander, libel, threats, theft, destruction, historical revisionism and social humiliation"

Scary isn't it?

[BrotherBuzz]

11. Can you post the entire list...

I've seen it before, but it would be nice to have on this thread.

[kuozzman]

15. The 7 conditions that foster and fuel fascism:

1. Instability of capitalist relationships or markets

2. The existence of considerable declassed social elements

3. The stripping of rights and wealth focused upon a specific segment of the population, specifically the middle class and intellectuals within urban areas as this the group with the means, intelligence and ability to stop fascism if given the opportunity.

4. Discontent among the rural lower middle class (clerks, secretaries, white collar labor). Consistent discontent among the general middle and lower middle classes against the oppressing upper-classes (haves vs have-nots).

5. Hate: Pronounced, perpetuated and accepted public disdain of a specific group defined by race, origin, theology or association.

6. Greed: The motivator of fascism which is generally associated with land, space or scarce resources in the possession of those being oppressed.

7. Organized Propaganda: The creation of social mythology that venerates (creates saints of) one element of society while concurrently vilifying (dehumanizing) another element of the population through misinformation, misdirection and the obscuring of factual matter through removal, destruction or social humiliation, (name-calling, false accusations, belittling and threats). b) The squelching of public debate not agreeing with the popular agenda via slander, libel, threats, theft, destruction, historical revisionism and social humiliation

[BrotherBuzz]

16. Thank you

:)

[FizzFuzz]

43. I found the 14 points of Fascism, which I have seen before

here is the link and an excerpt below.http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
I've seen them elsewhere, but the points at this site include actual Bush Admin policy as examples/links. Much more hard hitting. (I've highlighted the links in blue

Haven't come across the 7 points. I'm dismayed to see the 7 points omit this one:

5.) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
The Bush Administration issues medical guidelines that rape victims should just carry the child to term
Bush refuses to sign U.N proposal on women's "sexual" rights
Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003 failed to provide any exception if a woman's health is at stake.
Justice Dept. Demands Abortion Records
W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs. Hager believes that headaches, PMS and eating disorders can be cured by reading Scripture.
Bush Administration to Extend Health Coverage to Fetuses but Not to Pregnant Women
The State Department has awarded an explicitly anti-feminist U.S. group part of a US$10 million grant to train Iraqi women in political participation and democracy.
Bush calls for constitutional ban on same-sex marriages

[BrotherBuzz]

46. Actually, those were the ones I had first seen

Thanks


For what it's worth, I'll post all fourteen here, too. :)


1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4.) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5.) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6.) Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.) Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[FizzFuzz]

48. It's a scary list, isn't it?

I just can NOT believe that freepers look at this and say "Oh yeah, that's what those Democrats are doing" That is the most unbelievable distortion of reality I have ever seen. (That and murderers/torturers who say god told them to do it, or that the victim made them, or whatever.........but you get my drift)

This Bush policy link is the one that makes me so angry, I could explode, buy a nuke and stick it down smirky's pants, and get a grease gun to force dogshit down the throat of every RW/fundy/fanatic that crosses my path.

"The Bush Administration issues medical guidelines that rape victims should just carry the child to term"

We may have to create an Underground Railroad for women, to take them where they can get birth control and safe abortion. :(

[wabeewoman]

50. They live in Bush's unside down world

I went over to see what they were saying about no WMD (couldn't find ANY posts about it) but read one on Social Security talking about how the dems would lie and scare people. What?????

[DownNotOut]

52. I believe Freepers think this

because higher taxes and larger more inclusive government are synonymous with MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL. Does that help you at all?


DownNotOut

[FizzFuzz]

53. actually, it makes my cognitive dissonance worse!!

More Gov't Control---like the social controls and corporate protecting, citizen-spying hidden-addendums to bills the Ringmasters are legislating as fast as their puritanical, profit-driven, morals-twisting, deception-loving, dirty-trick expertise can manage?

:/sarcasm: !! :hi:

(those hidden addendums they keep sneaking into bills--what are they called again, do you know? I can't think of the word.)

[DownNotOut]

54. "those hidden addendums they keep sneaking into bills--"

Well after our congress gets their say they are called laws.

Though I struggle with the question because in most cases the entire bill is a 'hidden-addendum' since its not read by anyone before being voted on.

The real 'hidden-addendum' is full disclose on the exact quantity of grease applied to a congress-persons ass just before insertion of another congress persons 'bill'.

DownNotOut

[FizzFuzz]

64. HAHAHAH!!!!!!! *snort*

exact quantity of grease...hmmm, yes, though I'm not sure I would want FULL disclosure on that. Urk. :puke:

You pass this bill for me? Me love you long time!!

And yeah, I cynically agree with the rest of your reply too. ;)

[unpossibles]

59. no

"because higher taxes and larger more inclusive government are synonymous with MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL. Does that help you at all?"

this is not specifically true, nor is it all inclusive. Higher taxes can be a symptom of greater govt. control, but there are many ways to control.

Through lobbyists and political favors, our government has been in bed with the corporate world for a long time.

Also, contrary to their "manual" I have yet to see the Republicans do anything to make a less inclusive government - drug laws, anti-abortion laws, vice laws and others are nothing BUT big government, and do not make economic sense either.

I am not saying the Dems are perfect (far from it), but to claim that the Dems are just trying to make govt. bigger/more inclusive and to raise taxes and that the Republicans are not is not at all accurate.

Many government programs which our taxes pay for are necessary for our continued societal well-being and worth the money. Other laws are necessary to prevent child labor abuses and environmental damages. These are attempts at being less short-sighted and benefit us all, even if it is not obvious at first.

[DownNotOut]

60. You'll get no argument from me on

this one... "Also, contrary to their "manual" I have yet to see the Republicans do anything to make a less inclusive government - drug laws, anti-abortion laws, vice laws and others are nothing BUT big government, and do not make economic sense either."

Its the ultimate red herring of the Ruglick party. The single greatest ruse of modern politics.


DownNotOut

[Up2Late]

19. Wow, I really like #3

where it says, "...specifically the middle class and intellectuals within urban areas..." :evilfrown:

Sounds like it came right out of KKKarl Roves play book. Speaking of KKKarl Rove, did anyone hear reported last weekend on "Wait,Wait" that KKKarl gave a speech a few years ago, where he said, "The reason he Hates Democrats Soooo much, is because, when he was a little, Nixon supporting child, a Kennedy supporting Democratic GIRL beat him up and gave him a bloody nose!?!":bounce:

I swear, that's what the "man" said.

Here's the American Heritage Dictionary definition of Nazi--

Na·zi (nät“s¶, n²t“-) n., pl. Na·zis. 1. A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler. 2. Often nazi. An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist. --Na·zi adj. Of, relating to, controlled by, or typical of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. --Na”zi·fi·ca“tion (-s…-f¹-k³“sh…n) n. --Na“zi·fy” (-s…-fº”) v.

[LSK]

56. good post

Now I think Im going to throw it into some cons face!

[LSK]

58. been seeing a lot of #5 focused at Gays, Libs, middle easterners

[JohnnyRingo]

12. If you like laughing at Freep Creeps....You'll enjoy this:

http://www.freerepublicsucks.s5.com/crackdownmay2003.htm

[jonnyblitz]

35. they have a link to DU on that site and it claims in the description

that "..it's (DU's) message board isn't as user friendly as Free Republic's.." :wtf:

[JohnnyRingo]

47. I never noticed that...

Odd, because I always thought that the FR format was rather crude.... Like a web site for a concentration camp.

[kuozzman]

13. From MSN Encarta

Characteristics of Fascism(Some):
*Idea of a Nation in Crisis

A fascist movement almost always asserts that the nation faces a profound crisis. The fascists present the national crisis as resolvable only through a radical political transformation....Others argue that a radical political transformation will then be followed by a change in values. Fascists claim that the nation has entered a dangerous age of mediocrity, weakness, and decline. They are convinced that through their timely action they can save the nation from itself..........The end result of the fascist revolution, they believe, will be the emergence of a new man and new woman. This new man and new woman will be fully developed human beings, uncontaminated by selfish desires for individual rights and self-expression and devoted only to an existence as part of the renewed nation's destiny.

*Attitudes Toward Religion

Some other early fascist movements, however, tried to identify themselves with a national church.

*Emphasis on Militarism

*Use of Political Rituals (Coronation of the Chimp)

[madrchsod]

14. the republicans control the entire government

and the broadcast media...god these people are stupid...how can the democrats be accused of fasism when they are totally powerless? freepers are very, very stupid.

[kuozzman]

17. 14 characteristics common to fascist regimes

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
Link has sever specific recent examples of each.....

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4.) Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5.) Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6.) Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.) Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[eagler]

37. This needs to be kept and used often

nt

[Up2Late]

18. How can we REALLY hate the Freepers? It's like...

Hating the Retarded Kids in the Special Ed :dunce:class. They can't help it that they are so STUPID.

God, what a bunch of brainwashed idiots.

I REALLY like this part "...Nazism is a political party platform that embraces a combination of a military dictatorship, socialism and fascism..."

WRONG! :spank:

Just because you call your party the "National Socialist Party," doesn't mean your party actually has ANYTHING to do with Socialism. It just means that the guy that named the party had a HUGE set of BALLS, to put one of the first lies, right in the name of the party.

My brother is one of those "Hate everyone except himself" types, and he interrupted a conversation I was having with a Fundi who was having trouble understanding that not ALL Muslims are evil, Just the BAD Muslims.

My brother interrupted me when I told this guy that we have had Christian "Hate Groups" too. Like the KKK and the Nazis. He stopped me to tell me that Hitler and the Nazis were NOT Christian. Even after I sent him direct Quotes out of Hitlers speeches from the 1930's and links to the site that had them, he still wouldn't admit it.

Here is the definition from the 1995 version of "The American Heritage Dictionary"

fas·cism (f²sh“¹z”…m) n. 1. Often Fascism.a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. 2. Oppressive, dictatorial control. --fas·cis“tic (f…-sh¹s“t¹k) adj.

[Slickriddles]

41. Well actually the Nazi "revolution" did have some quasi-

socialist elements. Industrial property remained in the hands of the Capitalists, but in a lot of small ways there were benefits for the workers that were kind of socialist. There's a book called Hitler's Social Revolution that describes it. The other thing is the Nazis borrowed a great deal of socialist and communist style in their political campaigns etc. Of course all of this went away with the war.

[Up2Late]

61. But as we just saw...

"...the Nazis borrowed a great deal of socialist and communist style in their political campaigns etc..."

But as we just saw with the GOP/Bush 2004 neo-Fascist campaign, Fascist political campaigns are little more than a long list of lies and Right-wing idealistic propaganda.:eyes:

I'm sure any Socialist programs the Nazis promoted to the people, had an underlying anti-social motivation behind it.

[CrazyConspiracyGuy]

20. Republicans don't like that the word "Fascism" is being used again

Their "7 conditions that foster and fuel fascism" are very, very different that the historical definition of fascism.

My theory - and please, consider my handle - Republicans are worried about the word "fascism" gaining currency again. But that's just me.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi CrazyConspiracyGuy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Up2Late]

32. No, you're right

Almost their whole strategy is an Orwellian control of the language.

:think:You should watch the Documentary from "Frontline" called "The Persuaders." If you only have limited time, the last half-hour shows you "The Guy" responsible for all the Bush "New Speak" Frank Luntz.

It's at <http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/>

[ComerPerro]

21. Wow, everything they cited is being done by the Bush administration

And is occuring right now. Can they not see it?

And they throw it back at us!!!! ??? ??

[Carolab]

22. Look at how UNINFORMED they are!!!!!!!!

You bring up some good points but the article makes some sense to me. I was always under the impression that fascism was a worker movement against the CEO/business class.

Looking at the American situation I think the left is being hoodwinked by the multinational corporations who have found a vehicle to rid themselves of competition through various extremist left-wing movements like the animal rights and environmental movements

When you trace the money back to the owner most of the activism money is coming from billionaires through organizations like the Pew Foundation and many others. Liberals are an easy target, they can be swayed on emotion and thats what all these activist rights movements are about. The sky is always falling in their little worlds.

GOOD LORD, YOU IDIOTS! LOOK IN THE F'ING WHITE HOUSE!

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. It's not really their fault, you know. Freepers see government as a

broad monolith that's run by Democrats and Liberals, no matter who is running the country. They're just too primitive to understand that they are in control now and that career public servants who tried to use government to improve the lot of all Americans, have been replaced with right-wing Chamber of Commerce zealots who only really look after the interest of a small minority.

It's like a child being afraid of a mask, and it doesn't matter who wears the mask, the child has given that mask properties of its own.

[Stirk]

25. Oh, I think they realize it on some level- they just choose to ignore it.

Their mindset is what Orwell was describing with his "doublethink" in 1984. I'm sure Orwell had seen plenty of it.

From 1984: "(doublethink is)...to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy".

That's been standard operating procedure for these goons for some time. I had a discussion with my right-wing brother-in-law about Iraq over the holidays. He supports the effort for several reasons, all contradictory. Two of my favorites made me think of Orwell's 1984.

I asked what we should do if the Iraqis choose a leader who is in opposition to the US presence, or a theocrat, he said we could not allow that. We should simply install someone acceptable. Two minutes later he said our presence was justified because we're spreading democracy.

I asked about Abu Ghraib and other prisoner abuses. He said these things are to be expected in war, and that it necessary. Then he described the conflict as one of good vs. evil, with the US obviously representing the "good".

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. Welcome Stirk

Great post!

[lukasahero]

27. Wow

how did you keep your head from spinning off your body?

The lack of logic, or better yet, the circular logic used by these nuts makes my head hurt. I can't even argue with them because the argument is so obvious that I'm usually left dumbfounded and speechless that they can't see it themselves.

[Up2Late]

28. WAIT!! That's it! I have the solution!

What needs to happen to fix these "right"-Wing Fundie wackos is, we need to get together with the CEO's of the Tobacco Corporations :smoke:and get them to start, slooooowly substituting Marijuana for some of the tobacco in the cigarettes in this country.:hippie:

Slowly, the "red-State" reactionaries will slooooooooowly start to mellow out, gradually developing imagination, an eye for good Art, and interesting music, such as the "Moody Blues" or "Peter Gabriel.":hippie:

If we can get the Pot level up high enough, they might finally realize that, making more money than your neighbor, is just not that important.

Quick Fact that Most People don't know (but I bet most suspect):

All of the Major Tobacco Corporations DO have the Name Brands and the packaging designs all ready to go, to start selling Marijuana, if and when the U.S. Government makes Pot Legal (again).:smoke: I don't know the brand names for all of the companies, but I have seen the packaging designs for the R.J. Reynolds brand. I think their brand was "Columbian Gold." I work at a digital retouching studio in the 1990's that had R.J.R. as a major client.

[leesa]

44. I think you might be on to something there!

I didn't know about the packaging. That is very interesting. I suppose they are already selling it as well (in baggies, of course)

[area51]

29. projection

It's called projection, when people accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Freak republic slaves are projecting their own fascism on others.

[Up2Late]

30. Oh, Cool

I didn't know it had a name, but that is just what they have been doing for years now.

I thought it was just called "beating them to the punch," but that is mostly the BIG LIE lier's (the "think" tank people). Sometimes, when * or Rummy are about to roll out a new lie, some of them seem to have gotten the memo wrong, and start rebutting a lie BEFORE the lie was scheduled to be told.:evilgrin:

Some of you may not have noticed this, but now that you know what to look for, you'll start to notice these little mistakes.:evilgrin:

[Deja Q]

33. They wouldn't know fascism if it punched them in the face. Which is funny

as their own precious leader parallels a lot more fascist qualities than any Dem.

[izzybeans]

34. This is a telling post and it

occurs so soon in the thread.

"Yes Fascism is making a comeback in Germany and France. No, there won't be big parades and such. Yes, there will be no more freedom of speech or religion (hate crime laws), governmental control of the economy (the 'green' agenda fits here), and plenty of lies.

2 posted on 01/30/2003 7:07:43 PM PST by GermanBabies"

Notice how this person equates freedom of speech and religion with their opposition to hate crime laws and then the environmental movement to fascism itself-protecting communities from corporate control is somehow fascist.

so, rooting out bigotry is fascism-what then is bigotry? Ensuring that individual liberty is not infringed by the spoils of corporate governance is fascism-what then is economizing public goods? Wow these people have come full circle even with their head up their ass!

[nashville_brook]

63. ignorant -- this is what a generation of home-schooled monkeys is

going to look like.

[eagler]

36. Do these flat-foreheaded tree dwellers realize that Hitler and

Mussolini were both right-wing ultranationalist warmongers. That fits the very definituion of facsism.

[izzybeans]

38. And then there is this:

It seems representative of all attempts to explain away the immorality of the RW position. Each paragraph reads like data a Marxist could use about bourgeois ideology. I notice the original poster actually used a quasi-marxist definition. Perhaps it was a DUer who brilliantly planted this to spark off the mystfication-train that runs so smoothly at the freep--because no one really seems to like the definition they all want to use their own while simultaneously delete themselves out of i


Read below:

"To: John Lenin
I disagree with this definition of fascism, racism is not a necessary component (even though it is almost always present in fascist systems, because it is such a useful tool).
Fascism is a dictatorial ideology which calls for government control and organization of private industries (not necessarily all of them, but especially ones vital to the survival, success, and warmaking capability of the nation). Fascism has inherent in it the glorification of strong leadership, strong soldiers, and war as an end and not a means.
Iraq fits this definition of fascism completely.

<Flameshield On>

The economic/industrial description does not fit America, but we do come superficially close to matching the ideological component. We do like having a strong leader, and we do celebrate our military victories, and we do place a very high social value on military service. We like having a strong military, we believe it is very important to our nation.

But I said the resemblance is only superficial: we don't want to rush headlong into war, we've been trying to avoid it. Even the hawk Bush decided to go through Colin Powell and the UN (and Powell succeeded brilliantly there). We do glorify strong soldiers, but only if they are also moral. Part of our high social status for veterans and soldiers is that they are upholding democratic values and human rights.

Our willingness to use military force to protect those values (and to protect ourselves) is sometimes confused by left-wing @$$#0135 for a fascist affinity for war. They are completely wrong, they have completely taken morality out of the equation (which is why the pundit Andrew Sullivan refers to them as "depraved"--a description with which I wholeheartedly agree); they see the US as a bigger fascist than Saddam Hussein, merely because we are bigger.

</Flameshield>


15 posted on 01/30/2003 7:59:02 PM PST by xm177e2 (smile) :-)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >

[EVDebs]

39. Fascism = Corporatism and globalization is the next closest thing

Mussolini said something like this. Can somebody locate it ?

[ghostsofgiants]

42. Well he's often said to have said that...

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."

Not sure if he actually did.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

[chefgirl]

45. A quote

Sounds about right to me:

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
-FDR

While Bush may not have fully achieved it yet, it is certainly his goal for the 'people's' government to be wholly owned and operated by his criminal family, big business and their very private group of cronies.

-chef-

EDIT: another quote which may be even more to the point:

Fascism is highly mutable: “…Each national variant of fascism draws its
legitimacy… not from some universal scripture but from what it considers the
most authentic elements of its own community identity.” (Paxton) American
fascism will be folksy. It’s anthems will be country-rock fight songs, not
military marching songs. It will drape itself in our flag (not Nazi Germany’s
flag). It will be Christian (evangelical and protestant, but not of any
identifiable denomination, and, paradoxically, somewhat ecumenical so even
certain Catholics will feel at home in it). And—this I must emphasize—it will
deny that it is fascist. Fascism equals Nazism, which is German and therefore
foreign. Our fascism will think itself all-American and not beholden to foreign
ideologies. They will deny that they are fascists and they will believe that
they are telling he truth.

[EVDebs]

57. Yes, chefgirl, and Lincoln too said something about corporations

along with Teddy Roosevelt and trusts (monopolies). The Republicans have come a long way baby !

[dean_dem]

55. It's bizarre. My father was a tried-and-true Clinton hater...

...and he constantly brought up 1984, went out and bought another copy all that stuff. He was convinced that we were going to move towards a facist 1984-esque police state if Clinton got his way. May his soul rest in piece, he was a really smart guy, but I never could understand how he made that connection.

But yeah, the right has been accusing us of Facism for years. Seems they forget Facist dictators have historically been more right-wing. I'll take your Stalin and raise you a Mussolini.

[gordianot]

65. Left and Right arguments are primarily economic.

Where many miss the distinction with Fascism is within styles of government. What Hitler and Stalin had in common was their desire for authoritarian ruling styles.

They simply cannot accept their beloved W is an authoritarian to the extreme. Unfortunately they will have to learn this the hard way.

[Skittles]

67. they don't get it, do they? they just-don't-f***ing-get-it

and as often as I see and hear and read them, it never ceases to amaze me the sheer amount of ignorance at freak republic

[Berserker]

69. 1989 Webster

Fascism: Any political or social ideology of the extreme right which relies on a combination of pseudo-religious attitudes and the brutal use of force for getting and keeping power.

[Up2Late]

70. I like that!

Pseudo-religious,:think: I'm going to have to use that.