Why should Europe pay anything for Iraq?

[dutchdemocrat]

England, Spain, France and Germany have all had their 'terrorism' problems internally. In fact, the IRA terrorists were by and large happily funded by Americans to do things like blow up the financial center of London and blast the underground a number of times killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent people over the decades. Boston was the lucky charm. Oh it was ok for lots of Irish Americans to toss twenties in a hat in a bar to get the Queen off the rock by maiming and killing wasn't it?

Spain has the Basques, France has the Algerians etc. Yet we don't live in fear like you do. Think about it. Why aren't people scared here?

American chose this war without the consent of most of the European public and governments via the UN so why should we give away our hard earned money and let our children die in a war we never wanted which has only curried more fervor in the large groups of muslim minorities in all our countries making things worse than they were?

Why should we threaten our socialized medical systems, free and low cost education, our generous welfare structure with tapping of our resources to pay for a government's war that clearly does not hold the same values most of us do.

I don't think Bush will be able to pull in Europe. He's really pissed off the general public who absolutely hate and laugh at him and the governments aren't too happy with things like Bushco's attempted hijacking of NATO and all the rhetoric which is both funny and frightening at the same time.

Freedom fucking fries in the Whitehouse...

Until the madness in the Whitehouse is eliminated and you get some sanity back - I don't think you will get much support from Europe.

My two cents since I am in Holland.

[TheBigGuy]

1. Oh Boy! Another Euro bashing the US

thanks for sharing.

[Jacobin]

3. Hey. Exactly how is this post "wrong"?

Let me understand. You want countries who didn't support the invasion to FUND THE CLEAN-UP?

Is there any wonder the whole world is bashing Bush? I am and welcome anyone else who bashes this asshole including our allies in Europe who are smart enough to be allies when its the RIGHT thing to do,

[dutchdemocrat]

4. I am just so pissed at Bush's speech

I had to cut loose and let fly. He thinks we are just going to roll over and open our pockets? Sorry if I offended.

[scarletwoman]

7. Your post was absolutely spot on,

NO need to apologize!

I, for one, very much appreciate getting European viewpoints here. Thank you for speaking up!

sw

[maggrwaggr]

12. You didn't offend me! I hope Europe says F**K YOU BUSH!

even though it will hurt me and my family financially.

Bush deserves to be hung out to dry. Well he deserves far more than that, but I'll lose ALL RESPECT for the Europeans if they, at this juncture, bail Bush out.

Hell, what do "chocolate makers" know about nation building anyway, right? :)

[scarletwoman]

6. And thank YOU for demonstating the arrogant "ugly American" syndrome

so handily. Sheeeesh...

sw

[RichM]

14. The US fully DESERVES to be bashed, because it stinks. What

dutchdemocrat said was exactly right -- it's no different from what most of us say here every day.

The USA is led by the most vicious corrupt government of an industrialized nation since Hitler (& maybe even including Hitler -- time will tell). Why shouldn't the people of the world despise it? It's a destructive menace to everyone.

[Sterling]

18. Oh go have some freedom fries already.

:eyes:

[Jacobin]

2. Those who supported this madness can clean up the mess

Roll back the tax cuts to the wealthiest and double their pre-cut taxes.

Add $3/gallon tax to gasoline and it would be CHEAPER than the military spending necessary to steal the oil.

Alternative energy would become competitive.

Cut loose Sharon and his band of thugs.

And, of course a country who didn't support the invasion shouldn't have to pay for this mess.

[Clete]

5. Europe owes us nothing.

It's unfortunately our mess. I hope we can somehow squeeze the money out of those responsible, but yet I know it's not very realistic. We the taxpayers will pay, like we always do.

We didn't vote for this crook and he didn't win. We will get our country back I hope.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Let me begin by apologizing for post # 1 dutchdemocrat

I do not think Europe, except for the few US puppit governments that went along with this insanity owe anything. It is our mess and it is our duty to pay to clean it up with our money. Even if we end up bankrupt doing so, which it looks like may be the case that is our problem. Not yours. Welcome to DU dutchdemocrat, and hope you like it here. Take care my friend.

Don

[eleny]

9. The other nigth I was...

reading up on the history of Standard Oil. After WW2, we funneled weapons to the Vietnamese nationalists so they could kick France out of their country. Then Standard Oil stepped in and developed the yet untapped offshore oil in the Gulf of Tonkin. We were successful.

So, it's no wonder why France may not be so ready to jump to our side right now. Especially since it involves oil again.

Here's a one page synopsis of our oily history -http://www.oilcompanies.net/oil1.htm

[RealityDose]

10. Don't think you won't get sucked in

It is your leaders that will decide. Bushy needs other countries to help militarily or he will lose the election next year so in reality he will offer anything for help. On the otherhand, this war is fueling the flames of hate. Any smart country will stay out of the headlines of this one. Good to know that Bush is ok that we have turned the country of Iraq that we just liberated into our own "battle ground" for one foreign group, us, to fight another foreign group, the terrrorists. I am sure the Iraqis are grateful that we are there.

[Sterling]

19. I don't think so.

"so in reality he will offer anything for help"

He will stop short of anything that will cut into Haliburtons profits.

Don't expect any help from Europe until Shrub is gone.

[not systems]

11. Render unto cesar

he expects tribute from the peons.

[Zhade]

13. GOOD! Don't bail these fuckers out.

As much as it will hurt us, do not bail BushCo out. Otherwise, the world really is doomed.

[RichM]

15. The correct answer to your question is that if Europe pays something,

they can get to share in the loot. Or, to put it another way, Europe will NOT be willing to pay anything, UNLESS they are promised a share of the loot.

That is really what it's about. It's about the OIL and the big reconstruction contracts. However, the US media is frightened of saying this out loud, so they talk about "sharing authority" in Iraq. This hides what is really at issue. People see the word "authority" and it confuses them -- but that is just the point of using this word. It makes people think that some vague thing OTHER THAN oil,loot and money is at the heart of the matter.

[Paschall]

20. If that were true...

...then France, Germany and Russia could have ensured themselves a share of the pillage by joining the invasion force. Didn't happen.

There are other stakes in play, international law for one.

[T_i_B]

26. I disagree

It's not like Blair has got anything in return for his poodling is it? All the spoils went to Bush's corporate cronies. :grr:

That said I truly belive that the UN is the best (or perhaps the least worst) option if we want to build a better Iraq. I would dearly like to see the UN in there but first the US will have to scede a certain amount of power and spoils. I don't think that when it comes to the crunch that Bush will do that. I do however think that replacing Bush with a strong democrat who has the guts to admit that the US made a mistake by invading will be much more able to get the deal that the Iraqi people will ultimatly need in order to rebuild their country properly and also to put the lid on the increasing terrorist threat in Iraq.

[Eloriel]

16. I couldn't agree more

And one of the things that annoys the livin' hell out of me is how this administration -- and far too many Democrats in Congress !! -- act as if the rest of the world somehow owes it to us to bail us out in any way.

Welcome to DU -- don't let some of these posters get to you. Most of DU is likely to agree with you wholeheartedly. We are ASHAMED of our government, ashamed of its actions, ashamed of the evil and destruction they have wrought in our name.

This war never should have happened, and millions of us here in the U.S. actually did try to stop it, just as millions the world over joined us in trying to stop it. Most of our protests weren't well covered by our press, and probably not very well covered by international press either. It was so bad that one day House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said, somewhat bewildered, "Perhaps if you'd have been doing this (protesting) back in October (before the Iraq War Resolution vote) ... !" WE WERE, WE WERE!! We couldn't get any media coverage for anything.

Oh well. I don't know how we're going to get out of this. And it's such a crime that we've destroyed a country in the process, not to mention all the deaths.

(Now I'm depressed.)

But I'm glad you're here nonetheless. I LOVE that we have so many international DUers.

Eloriel

[sushi]

17. I agree with you

BUT what is the UN for if not to help its member countries? The UN can hardly let the situation get worse for the Iraqi people. Who cares about that awful creature in the WH. It must have been embarrassing enough for him to have to ask for help. I hope all parties can quickly come to an agreement and go to the aid of the poor citizens of Iraq.

On the other hand, leaders who are prepared to send troops, who are people's children, to Iraq just to become cannon fodder will not be very popular. What a nightmare. I agree with the one who suggested the twins and other children of hawks should be recruited.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

21. Absolutely right!

Each and every leader of every country should tell * to:

1. fuck off.
2. piss up a rope.

Each should do it in his native tongue and tell * to hire a translator if he failed to understand them.

The criminal in the White House should have to pay for this out of his personal piggy bank.
He should get nothing from the rest of the world or from his fellow citizens.

And if he can't "win the peace" he should pull out completely, so the rest of the world can do what should be done.


What * did was not a war, it was invasion and occupation of an already devastated nation.

[whirlygigspin]

22. how about asking Haliburton to contribute?

or the other corps raking in the do re mi over there?

(think about it when you finish laughing Mr.Cheney)

[DemExpat]

23. I absolutely agree.....and wonder about our foreign affairs

minister J.H. Scheffer and how he seems to be sucking up to Bush and Co.......:thumbsdown:

I can't imagine that the Dutch people would support any more assistance from the Dutch - we have 1000 troops there now...part of the coalition...

:hi:
DemEx

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laura888]

25. Bush has incredible nerve just to ask for help!

Frankly, I'm embarrassed for him/us.

Europeans SHOULD say "I told you so." Because you did.

Hats off to you Dutchman - America should become more like Europe, I say.

[Kellanved]

27. and Europe like America in some fields

The Netherlands are "coalition"-members, though. But they only sent troops to Turkey, like Germany and other "non-members".

No official response on the speech yet, probably they're still laughing. But: it won't be "I told you so" . More like "we said what we want, now we're waiting". Schröder won't attack Bush - they're about to meet in NY and better German/US relations is something Schröder desperatly needs.
Bush and Cheney grooming the German opposition was a diplomatic no-no; Chirac and Schröder won't do something like that.

[laura888]

28. Bush and Co break all the diplomatic rules

I'm always interested in the European viewpoint - as I don't get to hear it very often.

As I said, I'm embarrassed for him/us.

I imagine the world views America as a big bull (didn't Johnny Depp say a "puppy"?), charging every which way, banging into things, breaking them. And when faced with the mess, unapologetic, demanding others help him put everything back together.

[Kellanved]

31. official response

German foreign minister Fischer and Government speaker Anda released reactions.

A few bits:
Fischer:
"The Federal Republic is willing to do it's part in the task to win peace." "However transparency and central UN control is needed."
No Troops


Anda:
No public evaluation of the Bush speech. ("not our business")
no military involvement
humanitarian and nation-building aid
€75 million given so far
Edit: Iraqi police and Army can get trained and equipped in Germany/ with German aid

http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID2241430_REF1_NAVSPM1,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,264748,00.html

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kellanved]

30. the offer for reconstruction and humanitarian aid stands

The wisdom of sending more troops is questioned. Many feel that it's too late...


And you have to understand that the idea of giving the money to Haliburton is politically not feasible.

[dutchdemocrat]

34. Tyranny?

You can you use that arguement in a lot of places... starting with Saudi, but the "tyranical" government there happen to be friends with Bushco.

Regime change has no basis in this arguement.

I went to your Blog. You are a freeper. Go back to your hole. And don't come back.

[Isome]

35. Bull Jon... pure Bull!

Supply-siders like claim you are willing to spend billions in another country, but bray & snort at the thought of spending a fraction of that on things like Head Start, OSHA, or facilities' maintenance or new text books for public school in this country.

You only say things like that because you think you're fooling others into believing you're altruistic and committed to democracy, when in fact you're selfish, and don't understand democracy enough to know that you can't FORCE people into adopting it as their method of government.

[rman]

32. in case of the Netherlands

Our government does support this war, so i'd guess we should help pay to clean up the mess we helped create over there. Also i think all nations do carry some resposibility for letting Bush to go to war for ficticious reasons, and thus all nations carry some responsibility for the consequences of that war.
Lastly, the American economy probably can't bear all the financial load without it further hurting many of the American people. Hopefully they'll manage to convict Bush and the gang, confiscate their wealth and use that to pay for Iraq. But i'm not holding my breath.

Besides, our government is doing a great job threatening our socialized medical systems, free and low cost education, our generous welfare structure etc, with or without paying for Iraq.

[dutchdemocrat]

36. Yes the current mess of a government in NL is supportive to a point

But I don't think we will send soldiers after they decided to do some Depleted Uranium testing before heading in and getting back fucked up results. Let the Europeans stick to cleaning up Afghanistan, where Osama is... you know the guy that 'allegedly' started this whole thing? America seems to have abandoned the country after signing the pipeline deal.

"Besides, our government is doing a great job threatening our socialized medical systems, free and low cost education, our generous welfare structure etc, with or without paying for Iraq."

I fully agree, and that is why we cannot afford to cut into the system anymore than is happening now.

I think the Dutch Government will turn tide when as public opinion swings in the US.

Dutch polls showed that more than 70 percent opposed even UN-mandated action going into this mess. Certainly the majority of the Dutch Public are still against the war.

Balkenende is a Bush lapdog at any rate.

[GOPisEvil]

33. I think the Brits should pay - their asses are in this too.

As for the rest of Europe, they should tell George to clean up his own fucking mess.

[Liberal Veteran]

37. As an American, I agree with you.....

The Bush regime made it very clear that they had no respect for Europe or international cooperation and were gonna have their war one way or another. It's like me purposefully burning down the house down the road and asking the rest of the neighborhood to help rebuild it.