Actual Iraq solders killed - 8,000? Wounded 15,000?

[FloridaPat]

These OFFICIAL figures indicate about 1,400 are dead and perhaps 4,000 wounded. Actually, and I have seen the figures from the Pentagon, over 8,000 are dead and over 15,000 are wounded, some maimed for life…blind, missing legs and arms or with the prospect of spending the rest of their young lives confined to a wheelchair in a Vets hospital with a permanent piss bag tied to a leg. This is the greatest secret and holds the greatest fear for the Bush people. If the public ever finds out the truth, they will lynch him and his fascist co-workers in about ten minutes.


http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1314.htm

I was figuring 4,000 dead and 25,000 wounded. This should be easy enough to prove and get the names of everyone who has lost someone.

[franksumatra]

1. They wouldn't lie to us about something like dead soldiers would they?

Shirley Nott.

[Wabbajack]

2. It would be kinda hard to lie about this

is no one missing those 6600 people?

[SweetLeftFoot]

3. Probably not

[stellanoir]

4. It's likely that immersed in their grief, there isn't a whole lot of

cross checking going on. Read the rest of the article. It's really intense and fully plausible. He recommends that people gather info and check official lists. I know no one in the military, but I hope someone does the follow up to stop this insanity.

[pretzel4gore]

13. each one alone does

but the mediawhore counts the totals....lol

[okieinpain]

28. no they are reported as dead, but from traffic accidents. I was

just wondering about this.

[HamdenRice]

5. Let me look at this with tin foil hat and without

I am tempted to dig out the old tin foil hat for this one. 1400 people is actually a tiny number in a country of nearly 300,000,000. It is like 1 out of 200,000. It is about 10 times the number of people killed in car accidents in this country. I don't mean to sound cold, but on a demographic basis, you would not really expect to even notice the difference in this number of deaths.

Yet there are so many local stories in the local press about local soldiers getting killed. It just doesn't add up. It seems like so many more people are dying than 1400.

Also, remember the first gulf war? It was short and considered to be this lopsided victory in which few Americans were killed. Actually about 300 were killed over the several weeks that the war lasted.

Does it make sense that only 4 times as many people died in this Iraq War as in the first gulf war??? That makes no sense whatsoever. There was no occupation, there was no urban combat, no improvised explosive devices. It did not last several years! Yet we are supposed to believe that only 4 times as many have died so far in this war?

Now, to take off the tin foil hat. It would be very, very difficult to hide combat deaths. On the one hand an individual family would have no special sense of how many people have died -- only that their loved one has died. But thousands of families would have to experience not seeing their loved one on official casualties lists.

The jury is out on this one -- but it is more reasonable than you might at first suspect that there is a cover up.

[bigluckyfeet]

19. 3 Soldiers

Have been killed from my high school.

[tuckessee]

43. Are they listed in the KIA count?

Check out the website below and see if the names of your schoolmates are listed.

http://icasualties.org/oif

[FloridaPat]

35. The number killed by Gulf War 1 is now around 3,300. Remember

the Gulf War Syndrom? That many have died from that in the last 10 years. Those folks over there now will never recover from this war crime. It's a war crime against the Iraqis and our own people.

[WritersBlock]

6. Has anyone heard any mention of US soldiers being taken prisoner in Iraq?

I just realized that I can't remember hearing anything about it, off the top of my head. I am ashamed to say that I hadn't given it much thought at all until I read this article. But now that I think about it, when was the last war in which one side managed not to have any soldiers taken prisoner?

[Philly Buster]

9. Matt Maupin was taken prisoner in April

There was a bad video a few weeks later which was purported to be his execution but the quality was too bad to make a determination.

Since nothing 's been heard about him since I would think it was for real.

[jmcgowanjm]

11. First off, I'd like to mention the Ceres Suicide by Cop incident

His parents- "He came back different".
Sounds like Vietnam, huh.

"It was premeditated, planned, an ambush," Ceres Police
Chief Art de Werk said. "It was a suicide by
cop."

Someone can get the CBS Evening News lastnight
and the transcript-I can't find it-where
the reporter went out of his way to tie
Raya to gangs, Raya was not going back to Fallouja,
that this would be Raya's 3rd stint in Iraq(the
reporter said 2nd and that the army said he
was to be sent to Okinawa
and that this was DEFINITELY not suicide by cop.

That's SIX lies!! The report wasn't what 2 minutes long!

Why would CBS go out of it's way to lie brazenly
six times about this guy.

Police also released the liquor store video tape. De Werk
said he wanted the public to see the tape so they
could understand not only what happened but "what's
really going on in the world."

From the Modesto Bee
couldn't get the link

[jmcgowanjm]

12. Why would CBS lie Six times in 2 minutes about Ceres/Raya?

Because at least 8000 US have been KIA'd
in Iraq and at least 35000 WIA that's why.

I've been on this from before Day 1.
That would be March 17 2003

Anybody here heard of the Battle at the
Baghdad Airport?

Something happened between April 3 and April
8 around Baghdad and for the US
it has just gooten worse since then.

http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/004262.html

William Bowles writes on the always
provocative Information Clearing House site:
“The idea that there is some kind of Œobjective‚
ground from which to view events,particularly of
the political variety, is a long-held fantasy, espe-
cially of British journalism. It’s still taught in
British universities would you believe, that out
there,somewhere,there’s a space that the journal-
ist can occupy, which sits perfectly in the middle,
between one view and another (pre-supposing of
course, that there are only two sides to an issue).
This illusion of course,is based on the idea that all
political situations have a left and right hand.

[NYC]

36. Link to Modesto Bee, Mercury News, & DU.

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/9750300p-10612430c.html

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/10613810.htm?1c

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1140431

[jmcgowanjm]

37. Thank you, NYC. DU'rs kick MSM butt

And I went and reread that DU link.

Saigon68-
The Fucking Police totally reject the PTSD component of
this.
They say he is just a killer and they are sure he knew what
he was doing.
Well Cops----- get ready for more of these sweet hearts in
the near future.
Maybe you can get a thrill out of shooting and killing a
disabled soldier. I think tho he might be just a tad tougher
than most P--s

[jmcgowanjm]

22. yes and they were killed when the US wouldn't negotiate

their release and then attacked
the Resistance positions.

Mujahideen - US Refuses
Prisoner Swap, Sacrificing 18 GIs

http://rense.com/general61/sacri.htm

[jmcgowanjm]

23. pics of what's really going on

http://rense.com/general61/loses.htm

Notice the jet fighter

[Stella_Artois]

33. I did notice the aircraft

Its a French built Mirage F1, as flown by the Saddam era Iraqi airforce. You can still see the Iraqi flag on what remains of the tailfin.

[jmcgowanjm]

38. Fins aren't the same-downslope in your pic,none in rense's

and your eyes are much better than mine, cause I can't
see anything looking like a symbol on the tailfin.

[Stella_Artois]

46. Downslope ?

Thats a verticle stab, not sure what you mean by downslope.

Telltale recongnition features.....



In blue, the Iraqi fin flash. The white is clearly visable, the surrounding bands less so.

In red, the avionics pod extending aft of the jetpipe ** See edit **

In yellow, the jetpipe itself of limited variable geometry, you can't see the petals.

Contrast with this US F-16 which is the only US type of any resemblance to this aircraft.



Notice the lack of avionics pod, the base of the verticle stab / rudder is forward of the jetpipe.

And the jetpipe itself is of variable geometry, with petal type exhausts, clearly visable.

While we are about it, the burning vehicle to the left of the F1 picture is a Soviet era MT-LB as used by the Saddam era Iraqi army.




There is so much out there to discredit the Bush regime, while doing so it is important to have our own facts straight lest we become discredited ourselves.

**edit, on closer inspection, that doesn't match either the F1 or F16. The jetpipe is F1 without doubt, and the finflash is Iraqi. I'm going to ask someone else about this, maybe it was a local mod.**

**Further edit, the top of the fin is the wrong shape for Mirage F1 as well, is that what you meant by downslope ? hmmmm....**

** Last edit :P Its a Soviet SU-22



The top of the fin, the extension at the base of it and the jetpipe all match.

So, it wasn't a Mirage as i first thought, but it was still Iraqi.

[Stella_Artois]

47. Also....

This character is German. There are no German troops in Iraq.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[verdalaven]

7. Nightline

Could this be why the RW media was so outraged at Ted Koppel for listing the War Dead on one of his shows?

Edited to add : I remember at the time thinking that the whole protest of nightline was over the top silliness. No one protested when the names from the OK bombing victims were listed. Weren't the 9/11 victims memorialized on the news like that, too? So why not those who died in the Iraq war? What are they hiding?

[noclonyofthechimp]

8. Are you saying "Iraq Soldiers" or American Soldiers IN Iraq?????

[Philly Buster]

10. It would be too hard for the Pentagon to fudge the KIA numbers

but the wounded numbers easily could be

[pretzel4gore]

14. but not the mediawhores

the mediawhores can say anything, literally anything, in service of burnin' bush. i think the bush crims are giggling cuz they know that the mediawhores think for amerikakaka and if the people learn the truth the mediawhores get nailed along with giggles and the gang...it's almost certain geeb (brother of the so called 'jeb' or john ellis bush) needs to be removed but how w/out alerting the people to the mediawhore's criminality?
shout it from the rooftops...rush limbah-humbug and oreally and rather/jenning etc etc are petty crooks...

[jmcgowanjm]

15. Let's start at the beginning March 17 2003

Key Marine Commander Is Removed; No Explanation Given for Decision

Allan Millett, a military historian at Ohio State University and
a retired colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve, said that
"relieving a regimental commander for cause is unusual,
in combat or not." The move is especially significant because
the three Marine regiments in Iraq have been operating in
a decentralized manner -- that is, not in one formation, but
as three geographically separate "regimental combat
teams."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030405-usmc-command01.htm

On the basis of radio intercepts, reports from both sides,
and intelligence from the start of the war, the coalition has
lost between 15 and 20 tanks in combat, around 40
troop carriers and fighting vehicles, more than 50 trucks and
up to 10 helicopters. In addition, we can mention, as a
minimum, another 40 unserviceable tanks, about the
same number of troop carriers and fighting vehicles,
and approximately 100 units of various vehicles
and approximately 40 helicopters. These data were obtained
by analyzing unclassified technical reports that are sent from
the combat zone to the Pentagon.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2480.htm

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jmcgowanjm]

39. I remember that-one reason given for attacking Russian Convoy

The US thought the Russians were taking Longbow
to Moscow.

April 9, 2003

MOSCOW — Russia has determined that the number
of coalition casualties is several times higher than that
reported by Britain and the United States, a former
deputy defense minister said here.

On Tuesday, the Defense Department reported 96
U.S. casualties in the nearly three-week-old war against
Iraq. Nearly half of the casualties were said to have been
the result of friendly fire.

But Russian military intelligence is said to have placed
the number of soldiers killed and wounded at more than
800. Russia has a large intelligence presence in Baghdad
and in the oil regions, Middle East Newsline
reported.

http://216.26.163.62/2003/eu_russia_04_09.html

[jmcgowanjm]

40. Fifth Interview: April 6-9, 2003, The Last Four Days of the War

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Special%20Reports/Al-Sahaf%20Talks%20to%20Abu%20Dhabi%20TV%20about%20the%20War%20on%20Iraq/Fifth%20Interview%20April%206-9,%202003,%20the%20last%20four%20days%20of%20the%20war.htm

.If my figures are accurate then the pentagon is
only reporting,making public 20% of the casualties.Many
people will state this can not be possible.They cannot hide
that ammount.Vietnam was a good reflection initially 6,000
Kia were reported later that rose to 58,000 and later a
further 40,000 were deemed missing in action.So if Vietnam
is anything to judge,then most certainly casualty figures
are manipulated for public
consumption.

http://iraq2005.blogspot.com/2005/01/casualty-figures.html

I don't know how they could hide it.
The Pentagon makes $400B/year.\
I'm workin' on it, though

[jmcgowanjm]

16. April 3 2003-Russian Mil Intel Update

Military analysts believe that today and tomorrow will decide
the outcome of the attack on Baghdad that begun two days
ago. If the coalition forces fail to break the Iraqi defenses, then
by the weekend the US will be forced to curtail all attacks and
to resort to positional warfare while regrouping forces
and integrating them with the fresh divisions arriving from the
US and Europe. Such a tactical pause in the war, although not
a complete halt in combat operations (the coalition
command will continue trying to use localized attacks to
improve its positions), may last seven to fourteen days and
will lead to a full re-evaluation of all coalition battle
plans.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/iraqwar_ru_019.htm

Special air-bombs have been dropped to cut off electricity-
(and electricity in Baghdad has yet to recover)

http://english.pravda.ru/war/2003/04/04/45638.html

[Occulus]

17. THIS is what Soros can do0!!!!

No, really, he's the only one with the kind of cash necessary.

Let's get all the wounded together for a photo-op.

All. Of. Them. :)

[jmcgowanjm]

18. April 6, 2003, 2000hrs MSK (GMT +4 DST), Moscow

A hard situation has formed near the international airport.
The day before yesterday the Iraqi minister of
propaganda claimed that the coalition forces in this region
would have been eliminated by this morning, and the
Iraqi command ordered to storm the airport. At 10am it
was attacked by 3 Republican Guards battalions enforced
with militia troops. Americans requested artillery and
aviation support. The battle lasted for almost 6 hours.
After several unsuccessful attacks Iraqis managed to
drive Americans back from the second runway to the
airport building. Currently the coalition forces control the
building itself and the new runway bordering to it. During the
day the foes had to increase their strengths and
deploy reinforcements. By the evening up to 2 regular
Iraqi brigades and 2 thousand militiamen were fighting for
the airport. Americans had to use all available forces of the
3rd Mechanized Division and 101st Airborne Division to
repulse the attacks. Only assault aircraft and battle
helicopters made more than 300 operation flights to this
region.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/iraqwar_ru_023.htm

[jmcgowanjm]

21. What happened to the 3/7 cavalry

This was originally written on April 13, 2004 about 3/7
Cavalry, tragedy and travesty in a Letter to Frank
Michel, associate editor, Houston
Chronicle.

Captain May, who served on the general staff of Houston’s
75th Reserve Division, is a graduate of the University of
Houston Honors College

I wept as I watched CNN Friday night. It was pre-dawn, April 5
in Iraq, the end of the night when Saddam Hussein
had promised us an attack. With a background in
military intelligence and public affairs, I could see and hear
the confusion, fear and tragedy in the faces and voices, and
I could read between the lines used to keep the
disaster hushed. It was apparent to me that the 3/7 Cavalry,
the avant grade for our assault across the desert, had
been blown off the Baghdad Airport

Saturday and Sunday following the disaster were part J.
Edgar Hoover and part P.T. Barnum. The tail wagged the
dog. The rescued Private Jessica, a tragic battle casualty,
was morphed into another “Baby Jessica” to hold
national attention. The 3/7 Cavalry breakout from the attack
was labeled a “foray” into Baghdad. The U.S. body count, a
pesky statistic from the Vietnam era, was hidden in the fog
of war. Monday morning offered a new scenario to dazzle
the public: Four one-ton bombs had “probably” killed Saddam
in one of his lairs. We had already been told that the first night
of the war; it worked again. We focused on Saddam and
we focused on victory. We stayed on message…, and we
stayed in the dark. Middle Eastern media carried stories of
a massacre of U.S. forces at the airport, but we knew not to
trust them.

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/May/7o/What%20Happened%20to%20Some%20US%20Soldiers%20Who%20Died%20in%20Baghdad%20at%20the%20Weekend%20of%20April%205-8,%202003%20By%20Eric%20May.htm

[SidDithers]

20. With sites like icasualites.org...

KIA's are listed by name. I'm sure that families with loved ones killed in Iraq, who didn't see those names listed on sites like that, would be raising hell and asking questions.

While not all families would have heard of icasualties, all it would take would be one or 2 familes to expose the lie, if there is a lie to be exposed.

Sid

Edit: Even CBSNews.com lists casualites by name, so there are lists available for checking by families.

[uncle ray]

24. unless

you, the family member were told simply that your loved one was deployed in Africa or somewhere, "training". it happens all the time, the family is kept in the dark about where the soldier is deployed, and the soldier goes along, to keep his loved ones from worrying. next thing you know a chopper crashes during a routine training exercise in some country, killing a dozen troops. who questions if those soldiers really died where the military says they did? who follows up on deaths outside war zones? people believe what they want to believe, my cousin was deployed to Kuwait, most of my family was glad he wasn't sent someplace dangerous like Iraq! idiots.

[SidDithers]

30. Possible...

but do you really think that an extra 3000 deaths from "training accidents" would also go unnoticed?

Sid

[jmcgowanjm]

44. Can you link a number of US training accidents for 2004?

thanx, I can't find one.

[Must_B_Free]

25. If they lift you off the soil before they report you dead,

then you didn't die in Iraq. Many of the unreported are dying in the air on the way to Germany.

[shadowknows69]

26. what about MIA stats?

they could hide any # of known casualties from families and the public with this shield.

[SmokingJacket]

27. Nevertheless, this should be relatively easy to check.

Everyone here who knows anyone who's been killed in Iraq should check the official list -- the lists are all over the Internet. I know of one local guy and he was on the list.

If this article is correct, we should be able to come up with at least ONE person who we know was killed in Iraq but who is NOT on any list.

Please, check the lists and report back here!!

[welshTerrier2]

29. soldiers? maybe, maybe not ... but more like 100,000 Iraqis dead

indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas, failure to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure ... the U.S. is killing Iraqis everyday ... and most "leading" Democrats still believe in a military solution ... i especially hope that Dr. Dean will reverse his position and call for withdrawal ... when people are dying everyday, Party reform is job #2 !!

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/01/1514200

A new independent, peer-reviewed study has concluded that at least 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died because of the U.S invasion last year.

The study entitled "Mortality Before And After The 2003 Invasion of Iraq: A Cluster Sample Survey" appears in Britain's foremost medical journal "The Lancet" and was conducted by researchers at Columbia University, Johns Hopkins and Al-Mustansiriya in Baghdad.

The estimated number of deaths of 100,000 is considerably higher than previous estimates. The study found the rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities. Most of the victims were women and children.

more ...

[lynne]

34. So, if TBRNews has seen these official pentagon documents -

- where are they? Takes only a second to photo a doc w/ a digital camera. No byline name - no document pics - no names of dead - doesn't say where we're stacking 'em.

I'm thinking this is a less-than-credible source.

[jmcgowanjm]

41. Does the American Army think they are Gods

Any assault on an urban area will
inflict 10% casualties at a minimum.

12000 US attack Fallouja, 10%= 1200

And that's considered a success.

Seen any footage/pics of our Great Victory in Fallouja?

MOSCOW, JULY 23 (2004). The United States suffers far
heavier casualties in Iraq than it officially admits, a
Russia military diplomat
claimed.

The actual U.S. military losses in Iraq may have reached
2,000 personnel, more than twice the official figure of 900,
as Washington badly understates its casualty statistics,
a military diplomatic source told the Itar-Tass news
agency.

http://www.hindu.com/2004/07/24/stories/2004072402401400.htm

Report Total for 24 hours IRR 011505

report totals

U.S Soldiers killed........122 +29 WIA +1 Brit Soldier.

Humvees dest/Dis...............14
APCs...................................5
Unnamed Military vehicles....9
Unnamed Helicopter............1
Bradleys.............................5
Trucks/Tankers..................5

But don't believe this
Don't believe that the US CommanderinChief
has turned everything he was in charge of to shite.
Believe that only Iraqis die when USConvoys are attacked
Believe FOXreporters in their newsbunkers.

Message from Israel 041004
http://debka.com/article.php?aid=825

[jmcgowanjm]

42. Here's where failure to acknowledge casualties/reality causes defeat

Is There Another 'Tet' in Our Future?

The Pentagon, and this administration's compliant media,
has consistently told us our military is facing forces that
number from 5,000 to as high as 20,000 of the enemy in
Iraq. President Bush says there are a "small number
of insurgents opposing the election, because they fear
freedom." Compared with the statement by Iraqi
intelligence service director General Mohamed
Abdullah Shahwani, it is not hard to tell something is
seriously wrong here. "I think the resistance is bigger than
the US military in Iraq. I think the resistance is more
than 200,000 people."
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=12332

Shahwani said the number includes at least 40,000
(SpezNatz trained)hardcore fighters but rises to more than 200,000
members counting part-time fighters and
volunteers.

Cordesman says, "People are fed up after two years,
without improvement. People are fed up with no security,
no electricity, people feel they have to do something. The
army was hundreds of thousands. You'd expect some
veterans would join with their relatives; each one has sons
and brothers. What are you going to call the situation here
(in Baghdad) when 20 to 30 men can move around
with weapons and no one can get them in Adhamiyah, Dura
and Ghazaliya."

In late January of 2005, as in late January of 1968, we have
the bastard child called illegitimate war, sired by lies
and delivered from the womb of the mother called
the omnipotent State, with identical dynamics: a
psychopathic administration and war department, a military
led by political whores who would not give credence to
any intelligence that contradicts the psychobabble of
that administration, a growing resistance that has been
terribly underestimated, and a nation whose majority is asleep
at the wheel.

God save our fine soldiers, at least those who have seen
this war for what it is.

http://uruknet.info/?s1=2&p=8873&s2=15

[tuckessee]

45. Where are the FRIENDLY FIRE casualties?

There are only 16 friendly fire deaths listed and none since August 2003.

http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx

Did the Americans suddenly learn how to exercise fire discipline and shoot accurately or are they fudging the FF numbers?